OT: My picture on Kandice's page and My trip
mkahogan
If you would care to see it, Kandice was kind enough to add a photo of my
daughter and I to her page.
It's a small photo, if you click on it you can see us much better. We are
at the bottom.
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/friends.html
I have to make necklaces today. While I was in Florida I managed to get my
work in an Artists Consignment shop, a Very nice gallery, I might add!! I
am thrilled. And they have threee locations, so they will put them in all
three stores. So, I have to get busy and somehow ignore the fact that the
house was not really cleaned while I was gone.
Sanibel Island was wonderful. It was 85 and sunny every single day, except
one afternoon storm, which only served to stir up the ocean enough for all
the shells to wash up more! Also created some tide pools which were full of
cool marine life, like all kinds of beautiful crabs, coral, etc. It was sand
dollar mating season, and there were thousands of them. We watched a pod of
dolphins just 100 feet out. They stuck around for 30 minutes. Also saw
lots of Shore birds (love those pelicans) and a real live alligator in a
nature reserve.
It was heaven. In the morning I would get my coffee, put on my suit, grab
a lawn chair and go sit with my feet in the waves. I am proud to say I
managed not to get sunburnt, but only tan.
Well, better get those fingers flying. I have to run some errands too.
Glad to be home, but wish it was 85 and that I had an ocean in my back yard.
Wisconsin is now bare trees and highs in the 40's. Eeew! No leaves for 6
months.
Later, gators.
Kathy H
Barbara Forbes-Lyons
Where in WI are you? I'll be in Milwaukee over Turkey Day for the holiday
and my brother's wedding.
Barbara
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:PTsA9.15758$jj5.3...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
mkahogan
Maybe I could drive down. I could stand some bead shopping.
Kathy
"Barbara Forbes-Lyons" <pengu...@penguintrax.com> wrote in message
news:aqtooc$od2$1...@news.utelfla.com...
Deirdre S.
mine. I'm just gonna get mine satisfied eventually on the other coast.
Dolphins rule! Saw them 'escorting' our ship many times when we came
back from Thailand to the states. Plus flourescent fish in the dark...
Whee! If I hadn't been seasick some of the time, it would have been
bliss from beginning to end.
Deirdre
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:58:07 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
Barbara Forbes-Lyons
Have family commitments on Thursday, Friday night, Saturday night and (of
course) Sunday for the wedding. I know that I will probably be free for a
while on Saturday afternoon. I'm sure Jon wouldn't object if I left him home
to go bead shopping, LOL. I'm sure there's a car that I could use to meet
you somewhere.
Barb
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:omvA9.15776$jj5.3...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
mkahogan
I am in awe of the ocean. I grew up with Lake Michigan right in our
backyard, literally, and I loved that. The water is constantly changing
things. No two days on the shore are the same.
And, yes dolphins rule. I love seeing deer too, it's the same thrill for
me, very spiritual.
Kathy
I am excited for you to move. Sounds as though you are very much looking
forward to it.
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:jf15tu8q20u5uibjk...@4ax.com...
Christina Foster Peterson
Tina
"Barbara Forbes-Lyons" <pengu...@penguintrax.com> wrote in message
news:aqu2kr$2js$1...@news.utelfla.com...
mkahogan
years!) have their Christmas gathering.
kathy h :(
"Barbara Forbes-Lyons" <pengu...@penguintrax.com> wrote in message
news:aqu2kr$2js$1...@news.utelfla.com...
Deirdre S.
haven't done so as often as I would like. It is big enough to have
noticable tides, and storms raise big whitecaps and crashing surf. I
like the rugged, huge rocks that go right up to the water's edge.
I will miss my friends from MN when I go to OR, but if they don't come
to visit me, I will just have to come and kidnap them from time to
time.
But I am ready for a life-change, too. Ready for a relationship that
works, and is both caring and equal. More than ready for that. And
Portland is where that is waiting for me. So that's where I'll go.
Deirdre
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:13:40 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
mkahogan
KHnews:eac6tusgavcrki03d...@4ax.com...
Deirdre S.
wrote:
>When do you move?
>KH
I'm aiming for the end of April/ beginning of May. I need to build
enough of a financial buffer so I can afford to cope if I don't find a
new job right away. The employment climate is not exactly balmy at the
moment, and OR has a pretty high unemployment rate. But I'm not
looking for a career-climb. Just a way of keeping myself without being
dependent on Genny ... who has had more than enough in her life of
people who depend on her to look after them, instead of developing the
capacity to look after themselves.
We are both a couple of 'recovering caretaker' types. So part of our
being a couple who are commited to a conscious relationship is a good
deal of attention to taking responsibility for ourselves, and avoiding
taking responsibility for the other :-)
So far, we're pretty successful at that. But I don't want to spoil our
record...
Deirdre
mkahogan
meld!!
Sounds as though you are entering this relationship with alot of self
awareness. Good for you.
Kathy Hnews:85k7tukcfpv4odeb7...@4ax.com...
Deirdre S.
Getting what you want isn't a nasty thing. It is perfectly delightful.
It is just when you get what you want at someone else's expense that
you are getting into dubious ethical territory. And shooting yourself
in the foot at the same time, because eventually a relationship that
unbalanced in benefits is going to break down, fall apart.
My experience leads me to believe that long term self-interest
includes altruism without self-sacrifice. Searching for the benefits
that are mutual, and giving that part of your relationship more
attention and energy. "If you feed it, it will grow..."
I figure that creating a good relationship is very much in my own best
interests. And doing things that nourish it and strengthen it can only
make for a series of more good days, and fewer bad ones, adding up to
a good life.
That is the theory. Now Real Life will test the theory. I'll keep you
posted. ;-)
Deirdre
On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:28:45 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
Christina Foster Peterson
..................
> We are both a couple of 'recovering caretaker' types. So part of our
> being a couple who are commited to a conscious relationship is a good
> deal of attention to taking responsibility for ourselves, and avoiding
> taking responsibility for the other :-)
>
....................
> Deirdre
Pete and I also are recovering "caretakers". It's ironical that our recent
circumstances are making us unusually dependent on each other. Luckily,
it's the awareness that saves us. We depend on each other, but are not
co-dependent because we have both learned to love and respect our own
selves. And we expect that respect from one another too. All the while
looking out for that snake in the grass. So far, we've been very
successful.
Tina
Christina Foster Peterson
includes altruism without self-sacrifice. "
Hear, hear.
Tina
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:d818tuofvsa18c81d...@4ax.com...
Christina Foster Peterson
So nice to hear your voice again.
Tina
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:PTsA9.15758$jj5.3...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Deirdre S.
I think that -unconscious- caretaking is a way of attempting to
create security (false security) through the other's dependence. Kind
of "If you always need me, you'll never leave me..." which stifles the
other's growth.
And gradually overburdens the caretaker with responsibility for
constantly compensating for the other's lack of development, until
they're so overworked they can't even take care of -themselves-. Or,
perhaps they fall into the role of caretaker to avoid facing their own
lack of self-care, displacing the self-nurturance they need onto the
other ... secretly hoping that the other person will eventually 'pay
them back' by nurturing -them- in return.
I've seen it a lot, and lived it from time to time. Until I woke up
and said: "This actually *helps* no one. What is the point of
destroying myself trying to do things I can't do successfully, in
order to spare someone who needs to figure out how to do things for
themselves!? What a mess!"
Caring and Caretaking are different. Offering someone you love support
is different from building an identity around 'being the supportive
one'.
IMO.
Deirdre
mkahogan
I think that there are very few people who are kind just for the sake of
kindness. I, for one, somewhere in the back of my mind, am thinking about
how good I will feel if I help someone else or even how I will look better
in other peoples eyes. At the very least, I figure that if I were in
trouble I would want someone to extend their help to me, so I am sort of
putting good energy out there and hope it will come back some day. Even
small kindnesses from strangers can turn my day around.
I figure the least I can do is return the favor to others.
So, that is what I mean by selfish, I never completely forget what I will
get out of the action and just focus on the other person. I also very
quickly can say no to people if I don't want to do things. Example:
My brother has a large boat in Florida. We toured it and he planned on
taking me out on it on my trip.
I find sitting on a boat a confining and boring experience. I really didn't
want to devote a whole day to that, so I told him I was happy that he
enjoyed his boat so much and it is a beautiful boat, but that I really was
not fond of boating and would rather enjoy the beach. Now, he probably
would have been thrilled to take me out and show me this thing he enjoys so
much. I struggled with this one, but decided I probably would not hide my
impatience very well anyway, so I might as well be truthful.
Was I right, wrong? I don't know. I did what I felt I needed to do. I
rarely have a world renowned shelling beach to play on and didn't want to
waste a minute of that opportunity. I hide my emotions poorly and they
would have seen that I did not enjoy the whole boat thing. I also asked for
one day of solitude as I just can't visit for 10 days straight without going
mad! They understood this perfectly and were just happy that I was having
so much fun in paradise.
Kathy H
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:d818tuofvsa18c81d...@4ax.com...
mkahogan
On the flight back there was a lady on her way to Alaska. It made me think
of you :)
"Christina Foster Peterson" <cfosterd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ut9q1om...@corp.supernews.com...
Deirdre S.
brother his boat was a drag, and he was a fool to be out in it. You
didn't say to the others who enjoyed a lot of company and activity "Go
away, you bother me!"
You validated what was true about you, without invalidating them. You
worked to get what you wanted ... but not at their expense.
That is my idea of being authentic, true to your Self, and honest
about what you needed for your own well-being. What is more, all of
the above made it possible for others to be considerate of your needs
without sacrificing what -they- wanted. There was accurate, two-way
communication. And respect for difference.
That's my idea of win/win. No one hurt, no energy wasted, no
resentments or left-over feelings of being bent out of shape. It makes
for an open atmosphere, and lots of choices for everyone. No grudges,
no deep sighs of resignation, no rolled-eyes -- as people girded
themselves to do something they *really did not want to do*.
If that is selfish, then I want to live in a world of people who are
that kind of selfish.
Deirdre
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:44:45 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
mkahogan
curious what others think about this.news:tjv9tu42h5hhmartb...@4ax.com...
Deirdre S.
exist. That makes your feelings important. No less than theirs. And no
more. And I think that your actions of being clear about your desires
did -you- good without doing them harm.
I think that self-sacrifice ... as in completely annihilating yourself
in favor of the other ... means that there is one less unique
individual in the world, because you are stamping out that
individuality in order to give more space to the other's needs and
wants.
If you want my own personal, individual opinion ... it is that giving
someone else what they want at -your- expense, is still doing
something at someone's expense, and therefore wanders into that
'dubious ethical territory'. I believe that -- even though many
people will say that putting the other's needs above your own is the
ultimate in virtue.
Pleasure in serving others is a real feature of human nature, IMO.
Look at how much little children love bringing 'treasures' to offer
people. Look at how they glow when those treasures are treated with
awe and wonder and appreciation by those who receive the offering in
the same spirit... Kathy N-V does that as adult-to-adult all the
time, and the energy-generating nature of the experience is still the
same as that three-year-old's experience.
But look at the nature of the energy-dynamics in a 'dutiful'
transaction, with none of that joyous pleasure in sharing what is just
spilling over inside. It steals energy from you and leaves you
drained, and it steals energy from the person you are being dutiful
to, since they aren't really getting a gift. They are getting
unwilling subordination.
No one may label it differently than the gift of a three-year-old who
offers someone a blade of grass, or their own rubber duckie as a
present. But they know unconsciously that energy has been lost on both
sides, They droop, or hold themselves rigidly to repress anger,
instead of being filled with delight, with energy bubbling up until it
spills out on everyone who participates, not to mention everyone who
witnesses.
If you want to know whether something is helping or harming ... you or
other people, or the situation in general ... pay attention to what is
happening to the energy level in the environment. Internal and
external. Your body will tell you the truth about you. Their posture,
muscle tension, breathing and eyes will tell you the truth about them.
Deirdre
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:13:22 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
Deirdre S.
response, so I will try again.
Are you asking about motivation, here? Are you questioning yourself
about -why- you do nice things for people, and wondering if there is
some niggling undercurrent of wanting to be seen in a certain way, or
praised for your generosity?
If that is the question, then I think that it would be impossible to
grow up in a world where "How do I look?" is a more important
question than "What am I doing?" ... without absorbing some of that
kind of behavior pattern.
In fact, I kinda define 'ego' as the part of our personality whose
constant question is "How do I look?" It makes for a split self. A
part of ourselves is projected out, in order to look back at us as if
they were someone else, in order to judge how someone else would see
us.
Its basic job is often to protect us from exposing ourselves to
destructive criticism, but sometimes it gets totally out of hand and
questions and censors everything we do by natural impulse, until we
are so inhibited we can't do anything at all that comes from deep
inside.
We are constantly 'on stage', and do everything with a sense of
'audience response' as the only guiding force in our lives. By then,
we really have lost all awareness of what the ego's over-zealous
censorship has cut out and thrown away before we even get a chance to
register that maybe we are in conflict with ourselves. Maybe what we
are doing -in order to be seen doing it- is the exact opposite of what
we really want to do.
Only you know whether your generous acts come from the three-year-old
who shares delight spontaneously, or the ego ... who is playing to the
audience in order to win praise and avoid criticism.
I'd bet it is sometimes one, and sometimes the other. Too much
criticism in your past experience can feed that protective 'present a
good image' part of you , while too little positive response to
spontaneous generosity can starve the three-year-old's impulsive
sharing spirit. Either way, something that once was joyous gets lost.
Deirdre
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:13:22 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
>Do you agree with my notion that one one really act selflessly or not? Just
Super Sloth
wrote:
>Yes, I think consciousness is the key. And mutuality.
>
What the hell are you talking about?
CynConn
into our genes and was a survival mechanism. A baby/child who was approved of
was more likely to receive care and to survive. (Love The Learning Channel).
And it is also part of most of our genetic make-up that receiving approval makes
us feel good.
Rather ingenious if you think about it. I care for someone so I do something
nice for them. I get all warm and fuzzy when they are happy. They get all warm
and fuzzy because someone did something for them that showed they cared (i.e.
approval). So the behavior is likely to continue. Caring forms bonds which can
aid in survival. One gorilla can't drive off a leopard but an entire group can.
Of course humans are very complex so it doesn't always work this way which is
why we have therapists <GRIN>.
Your conversation with your brother is a good example. You could have played
the martyr and gone on the boat just to make him happy. But would seeing his
sister obviously having a lousy time really make him happy? Or would it give
him more happiness when you told him what wonderful treasure you found on the
beach? That is the biggest lesson I have had to learn in the past year.
Martyrdom is not selflessness, it is a form of control. Making yourself
miserable to please someone else doesn't work.
Personally, I think selfish has gotten a bad rap. Yeah, I am selfish sometimes.
So what? To me selfish is saying that *I* matter just as much as the next
person. That my needs are just as important. And there is nothing wrong with
that. You can't care for others until you truly care for yourself. Maybe
instead of selfish, we should start calling it self-caring.
Cynthia
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:6i7B9.36531$uw6.5...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Sooz
>Personally, I think selfish has gotten a bad rap. Yeah, I am selfish
>sometimes.
>So what? To me selfish is saying that *I* matter just as much as the next
>person. That my needs are just as important. And there is nothing wrong
>with
>that. You can't care for others until you truly care for yourself. Maybe
>instead of selfish, we should start calling it self-caring.
~~
Sooz
Bat, bat, come under my hat
And I'll give you a slice of bacon.
And when I bake,
I'll make you a cake,
If I am not mistaken.
mkahogan
change channels sometimes without notifying people.
So, yes, what I was saying is, do you think anyone ever does anything out of
pure unselfishness. Or out of pure selflessness. I say no. I think that on
some level it has to do with personal gratification, even if that just means
it makes you feel good. An exception I have thought about is things I do
for my daughter, but that also serves me as I feel her pain ,often, as
acutely as she does. That is why it is a struggle to let go of children and
free them to be independent. It is important for me to keep in mind that my
job is to get her to a point where she doesn't need me any longer.
I do not think this is a negative commentary on me or on anyone else. I
think it is just the way things work. As for the example of a child sharing
a blade of grass, well, that makes the child feel good. In a way it is a
selfish act. I think we are all messed up because the word selfish is
generally used in a negative way. It is neither negative or positive, it
just is what it is.
Kathynews:ue3atuk6k7vhdiqld...@4ax.com...
mkahogan
when we pass judgement on ourselves as being bad for thinking about
ourselves. How can we not?
I also believe that we are all part of one big thing, and so to love
yourself is to love others.
Heavy, huh!
Kathy H
"CynConn" <Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:P6aB9.51$zZ5....@news.uswest.net...
CynConn
securing your child's". <GRIN> If you don't do this, you are taking the chance
that you will pass out before you get your child's mask on. Then you both will
die. So by taking care of yourself first, you are increasing the odds that both
of you will survive.
I read a fascinating book not too long ago called "Disease to Please" which went
into some of the psychological aspects of "selflessness" and the need for
approval.
Cynthia
And since we are being philosophical, I recently read a passage in a book by the
author Susan Wittig Albert that you might like. I can't remember which
particular book, she writes mysteries and they all are quite good.
"I realized how ancient our air is, millions, billions of years old, breathed in
and breathed out by millions, billions of beings, human and otherwise. An
ancient communion, a wordless, soundless liturgy, linking creatures with no
common inheritance other than birth, death, and breath." Susan Wittig Albert
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:OfbB9.16614$3j6.5...@twister.kc.rr.com...
mkahogan
The oxygen mask analogy is a good one :)
Great Quoatation. I often think of things like that when I am out in
nature.
If you think of the book, let me know, or just throw some titiles of her
better books at me, I'm always looking for tips on something good to read.
Kathy H
"CynConn" <Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
CynConn
used to be a defense lawyer but is now the owner of an herb shop in Pecan
Springs, Texas. Lots of extra tidbits such as quotes, recipes, herb lore. I
have to read the books with post-its handy so that I can take notes.
The books are in chronological order. There is some character flow between
books so it does help to read them in order. They are all very good IMHO.
Albert, Susan Wittig - Thyme of Death / Witch's Bane / Rosemary Remembered /
Hangman's Root / Rueful Death / Love Lies Bleeding / Chile Death / Lavender Lies
/ Mistletoe Man / Bloodroot
Other good mystery writers are Monica Ferris (lead character owns a cross-stitch
shop) and Earlene Fowler (lead character associated with quilting).
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:1WbB9.16618$3j6.5...@twister.kc.rr.com...
Kandice Seeber
is often on the spur of the moment without really thinking about it. I do
like seeing people happy - it makes me happy. I am not sure if this is
entirely selfless or not.
People often say I do too much or am too nice - of course, they don't see me
at home! LOL - seriously, I truly like doing things for people. I can't
explain why in words. It just makes me feel good - and if that's
selfish....well....at least no one is getting hurt. :)
--
Kandice
Air & Earth Designs - Beaded Jewelry
airandearth.netfirms.com
www.eclecticbeadery.com
kseeber.rubylane.comnews:6i7B9.36531$uw6.5...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Kandice Seeber
people involved are happy - it's all good. :)
--
Kandice
Air & Earth Designs - Beaded Jewelry
airandearth.netfirms.com
www.eclecticbeadery.com
kseeber.rubylane.com
"mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com> wrote in message
news:ScbB9.16613$3j6.5...@twister.kc.rr.com...
mkahogan
"CynConn" <Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> She is one of my favorite mystery writers. The lead character, China
Bales,
> used to be a defense lawyer but is now the owner of an herb shop in Pecan
> Springs, Texas. Lots of extra tidbits such as quotes, recipes, herb lore.
I
> have to read the books with post-its handy so that I can take notes.
I love this already! Barnes and Noble, here I come!
Jon Katz wrote a series of suburban detective mysteries that are very good.
You might enjoy them as well. Death by Station Wagon is the first, then The
Family Stalker, The Last Housewife, and the Fathers club.
mkahogan
Exactly, it is not a bad thing that it makes you feel good. If it made you
feel bad, or you were dispassinate about it, you proabably wouldn't do it.
It's positive reinforcement.
From what I can tell, you are a generous, kind person and you probably see
that as part of your identity. Of course we all have those other sides to
us that often come out at home. I am working on that, but that's part of
what family is for, they love you and you love them, warts, PMS and all!
Kathy
"Kandice Seeber" <see...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:4ZcB9.42596$QZ.8071@sccrnsc02...
Sooz
>The lead character, China
>Bales,
>> used to be a defense lawyer but is now the owner of an herb shop in Pecan
>> Springs, Texas.
Sooz
If it makes you feel bad, and you like that, you're a masochist. If it makes
you feel nothing, and you like that, you're....odd.
Deirdre S.
<Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>Martyrdom is not selflessness, it is a form of control. Making yourself
>miserable to please someone else doesn't work.
>
Hear, hear ... on both counts.
>Personally, I think selfish has gotten a bad rap. Yeah, I am selfish sometimes.
>So what? To me selfish is saying that *I* matter just as much as the next
>person. That my needs are just as important. And there is nothing wrong with
>that. You can't care for others until you truly care for yourself. Maybe
>instead of selfish, we should start calling it self-caring.
>
Isn't it revealing that we are usually *called* selfish by people who
are trying to shame us into doing what *they* want instead of what we
want? Just who is the true 'selfish' one under those circumstances?
I think that this is another case where we need more than a binary
choice. We are either selfish or selfless? How about offering most of
what they want to the other, while still claiming most of what we want
for ourselves? How about negotiating an outcome where each party gets
the thing that is most important to them, while conceding a little on
other points? What about the infinite number of dots along the long,
long curve between total self-absorption, where the other doesn't
count at all -- and complete subordination to the other?
There is a lot of room between the extremes. Yet we behave as if the
extremes were all there is.
Deirdre
Christina Foster Peterson
I agree that making others happy at the expense of your own needs, including
development, is extremely unhealthy. "It makes me happy to make you happy"
is a dangerous thing.
As regards doing things to make others happy, though, there's another
dynamic here, too, depending on character make-up. I'm not an objective
person. I am responsive to what others feel almost to a fault. I don't
understand what the other person feels. I am an empath. For me, I feel
pain along with the other person. This changes the dynamic of being nice
for me. To not make a person feel good is painful to me, so I have to
objectively decide whether the pain of not helping has a good enough
pay-off, like in the other person's development, or like in being able to
pay my bills and have something extra to use in a better way, etc.
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:pe0atu8rdppiej6ci...@4ax.com...
Deirdre S.
... but at the same time, as deeply connected to all the rest of what
*is*, then self-care and care for others flow into each other.
I really -do- think that caring well for yourself benefits others a
lot. Who would you rather be around? A self-neglectful, or
self-destructive person, or a self-caring, creative person? Which
style would make for the better atmosphere or environment for others
to share in, and be influenced by?
Deirdre
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:45:13 -0600, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
Deirdre S.
the need to be approved of the most...
Are there situations where you will act in spite of disapproval?
Accept the likelihood of disapproval and do what you decide you need
to do anyway?
Deirdre
Christina Foster Peterson
Finally I've found something to disagree with you on. Ego.
Some of my definitions are a result my psychology studies. From that, I
define ego as a sense of individual, valuable self. An abused woman will
usually lack a healthy ego. Meaning that she lacks a sense of individual
intrinsic value, not that she doesn't brag.
Usually "How do I look?" involves how a person feels she is perceived, that
she can't judge her looks (or value) for herself, and actually that the
person is actually lacking ego. As you say, a split self. A lack of
integrated self.
I've had to work so hard to be and believe in my self, and not someone
else's idea of who I am (with parents, siblings, men) that the ego I finally
have is very hard won.
I think we're just are using different definitions, rather than disagreeing.
Tina
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:ue3atuk6k7vhdiqld...@4ax.com...
Christina Foster Peterson
My mother used to tell me men were manipulating me. Like what you said
about people who tell others that they are being selfish.
And I agree that there are many points along the continuum, where
appropriate self interest, and interest in others can make a good balance.
Tina
Christina Foster Peterson
"CynConn" <Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> I think everyone is driven to some extent by a need for approval. It is
built
> into our genes and was a survival mechanism. A baby/child who was
approved of
> was more likely to receive care and to survive. (Love The Learning
Channel).
> And it is also part of most of our genetic make-up that receiving approval
makes
> us feel good.
>
> Rather ingenious if you think about it. I care for someone so I do
something
> nice for them. I get all warm and fuzzy when they are happy. They get
all warm
> and fuzzy because someone did something for them that showed they cared
(i.e.
> approval). So the behavior is likely to continue. >
>
> Cynthia
We get care when we are "good", please others. It IS a means of survival.
However, if it continues inappropriately, we lose the ability to make
decisions based on what is right and healthy for us. It then turns from a
survival tool, into a tool to sever us from our own sense of self.
Tina
Christina Foster Peterson
to extend our need to please others inappropriately, that need to please in
order to survive will resurface again and again. In intimate relationships
mostly, but others too. And often such people will go into "caretaking
professions", like nursing, counseling, etc, where they continue to use
there skills at reading people who are communicating poorly.
Learning to act in the face of disapproval is very hard for us (people
pleasers) to learn, and sometimes is never learned. But if we don't we
remain crippled.
Tina
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:6dkbtu8ga8soijck7...@4ax.com...
Deirdre S.
'strong ego' is as you describe... a solid sense of self.
The context I have the most affinity with is Buddhist... where ego is
what gets in the way of something more connected and authentic.
In the sense I was using it in, 'ego' means 'projecting an image'
rather than 'responding authentically'. So, yes, if we disagree, it is
a difference in semantics rather than what we value about a healthy
way of being "I" in the world.
Deirdre
Deirdre S.
whatever behaviors protect our survival. The problem is, the earlier
we learn them the more likely they are to become unconsciously 'hard
wired', and the harder it is to change that original programming.
I find the leaders of 'liberation movements', like Gandhi and MLK very
interesting in this regard. In both cases, their main strategy was to
find ways of ending patterns of dependence, in order to sow the seeds
of self-respect, and with it -- bravery. The Montgomery bus boycott
and the burning of Manchester textile factory clothes ... come from
the same family of actions. "We'll walk rather than sit in the back of
the bus. See how long your bus company lasts without our fares."
"We'll dress in one square of domestic homespun rather than support
your colonial economy with our resources..."
Independence means ending dependence. Which means you have to learn
the skills of self-care well enough to survive once you have cut the
strings connecting you to those who control you through your basic
survival needs.
What if Gandhi needed the approval of the Raj before he could choose a
civil-resistence strategy? What if MLK couldn't open his mouth until
George Wallace or the KKK signed off on his speeches?
If you have a definite POV, there *will* be disapprovers. If you speak
of or do anything consequential, disagreement and opposition is
inevitable. Sometimes rabid disagreement. Even hatred. Fire-bombed
churches. General Dyer at Amritzar.
Can you really have your freedom, if you can't face that? And god
knows, that isn't easy to face. But what is the alternative?
Deirdre
Christina Foster Peterson
consider what the worst outcome could be, and whether it was as bad as
continuing as I was. I figured the worst that could happen was that he
could attack me, and I'd have to kill him, and I'd have to go to jail. I
decided it was worth risking even that to escape from him. (It would be
such a huge price to pay; which is why I beg abused women to escape before
it gets that bad.)
Yes, we must take responsibility for our own behavior.
A friend said, If you can't own your failures, you can't claim your
victories. Also, if you can't say No, you also can't say yes.
Tina
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:a2rbtus422lpef5eg...@4ax.com...
Karen_AZ
is Janet Evanovich. He books are in sequence, too. Our heroine, Stephanie
Plum, is a plucky chick in Trenton NJ who sets out, just for the money, to
become a bounty hunter (to catch guys who break their bail bond). First job
is capturing an old sort-of boyfriend. It's all downhill from there. Very
tongue in cheek, side splitting funny sometimes.
--
KarenK
Desert Dreamer Designs
http://members.cox.net/desertdreameraz/index.html
EBAY: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/desertdreameraz/
mkahogan
One of the basic exercises in counseling for me was to see that the
world was not either black or white but that there is a lot of gray out
there and within too. I think alot of my understanding of this concept has
come as I get older and realize that things are not simple. So, Selfish can
be good, it can be bad, or it can be both. Taking a particular course of
action may be good for me but a bad move for you. An awful lot of who we
are in our own minds is created by us. It is important to listen to the
self talk. Rather that saying "I am ______", you might say "What I did was
______" or, "in the past I have tended to be _______".
I tended to think of my Father as a kind, open minded man, but he had
certain beliefs and did things that shocked me. How could your parents have
a servant? People are just not all that simple.
This is difficult to accept because we crave stability in our lives and want
to think we "know" the people we rely on.
Kathy H
"Christina Foster Peterson" <cfosterd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:utbop61...@corp.supernews.com...
CynConn
ones in a lot of ways. But I have learned some valuable lessons. For years
(most of my life) I was the family peacemaker. And the built-in babysitter for
my nephews on every vacation. And the keeper of all guilt, totally responsible
for everyone else's happiness. Any resistance from me or attempts to get out of
those roles were met with strong disapproval.
This year I decided I had had enough. Medical problems had made me sick enough
that I couldn't deal with it all anymore. So when Dad told me that worrying
about me was making him sick and depressed, my response was finally "then see a
doctor and deal with it". When my brother needed a baby-sitter so that he and
my SIL could go on vacation, I told him "I can't do it, find someone else".
When my family called me to bitch about other members of the family, I told them
"If you have a problem with so-and-so, take it up with them and leave me out of
it". Has it been easy, heck no! It has been met with a lot of resistance since
everyone *liked* the roles and responsibilities I had taken on over the years.
But it was all killing me (literally).
Yes, I still feel guilty when I say no, but it is getting better with practice
<GRIN>. My negotiating skills are also getting better. Instead of just no, I
now say something like "I don't feel up to playing 18 holes of golf with you (a
game I strongly dislike), how about a movie instead?" And I keep making
suggestions of things that I would like to do until we reach a compromise, even
if that is doing nothing. The end result is that I don't feel resentful at
being backed into a corner and "forced" into something that I didn't want to do.
And the other person doesn't feel rejected, it isn't that I don't want to spend
time with them, it is just that I don't want to *golf* with them.
It is still difficult at times. And believe me, my family is still trying cope
with all of the changes <GRIN>. But it has had some wonderful effects. My dad
finally saw the doctor about his depression, is getting treatment, and is much
happier. I now look forward to family get-togethers. I think that I am setting
a much better example for my nephews. And my relationships with family and
friends are becoming much healthier.
The biggest lesson that I have learned from all of this? I finally learned that
the only person's approval that I need is my own. My self-esteem/self-worth has
to come from within, others can't give it to me. It is a lesson that I am still
learning but one which has totally changed my life. For the better.
Cynthia
"Deirdre S." <deir...@nospamatt.net> wrote in message
news:6dkbtu8ga8soijck7...@4ax.com...
Deirdre S.
conditions she lived in. There was simply too much to be done for
there to be no help in doing it, so hiring someone to help was a
'given'. But from my POV she rated a room of her own inside the house,
not a closet with a bare sleeping shelf out in the back.
I have come to terms with the self-contradictory reality that was my
parents pretty well. I just know that -their- values and actions are
not the values and actions that I choose. I'm not regretful of the
times I departed from theirs to stand by my own, even though that
meant I was often 'in trouble'. I am far more regretful of the times I
bowed to theirs instead ... for survival's sake. And sometimes just
for five minutes of peace.
Deirdre
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:45:51 GMT, "mkahogan" <mkah...@imeplace.com>
wrote:
Karen_AZ
>The biggest lesson that I have learned from all of this? I finally learned
that
the only person's approval that I need is my own. My self-esteem/self-worth
has
to come from within, others can't give it to me. It is a lesson that I am
still
learning but one which has totally changed my life. For the better.<
Bravo!!!!
I can relate to a lot of what you said. I've swallowed up my *self*
countless times in order to keep peace, save face for my ex, preserve images
that were lies to keep someone else comfortable. It's easy to talk yourself
into thinking it's a kindness. Eventually I couldn't keep up with the image
I'd tried to create.
I'll be the first to admit it....Mike and I both left troubled marriages in
order to be together. We hurt people in the process and some of it has
definitely not been "nice." I doubt that my ex will ever consider it a
public service that I kicked him out and made him stand on his own 2 feet.
He'll make excuses and shift blame until the day he dies. Took me forever to
realize it wasn't my wifely duty to be sucked down with him. Mike has his
own stories to tell on his side, some of them amazingly similar.
We figure, when we do the emotional math, that before we made our moves, we
had 4 unhappy people, plus all the concerned family and friends. Now we have
2 happy people and 2 who at least have the potential, if they choose to do
so. And many family and friends who have shared a collective sigh of relief.
To me the best mirror of all is my kids. They are happy, laughing, and
healing at a stunning rate. I took a huge risk, but for the first time in
ages my self-esteem perked up and I truly believed that what I was doing was
right and good. What a tremendous payoff!
We both feel regret for our exes. However, they are both adults, both
competent, and both perfectly capable of making changes if they wish. I
learned years ago that you cannot MAKE someone happy. The happiness comes
from within. All you can do is make offerings...tools, materials, for them
to gain that happiness. Embracing that is up to them.
Karen_AZ
years of Navy service he was stationed all over the Pacific. He had several
tours in the Philippines, and had a maid, houseboy and gardener at one
point. Boy did that make me blink! But as he tells it, this is the
"standard". The conditions were sometimes not even close to our standards,
but that's the way things ARE over there. To attempt to change or improve
the status quo can be seen as insulting and demeaning in some cases. He
tried to "fix" things in some cases, and was denied by the beneficiaries.
Some stuff is just not done and that's that.
It can be very difficult to evaluate other cultures according to our
standards. Wars break out over these very issues. "Child labor" to us is a
matter of survival in other countries. Foods, cleanliness, health
issues....so many variables and perspectives, and it's incredibly hard to
step outside of what we're accustomed to, to view these things objectively.
Sooz
and to DO.
>Daddy's Little Girl. Family doormat.>SNIP<
Deirdre S.
just -one- member of a family starts to change, the whole system
starts to shift. It is very cool.
<doing a little "Right On, Cynthia" dance...>
Deirdre
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:29:37 -0700, "CynConn"
<Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>Daddy's Little Girl. Family doormat. The last couple of years have been tough
>ones in a lot of ways. But I have learned some valuable lessons. For years
>(most of my life) I was the family peacemaker. And the built-in babysitter for
>my nephews on every vacation. And the keeper of all guilt, totally responsible
>for everyone else's happiness. Any resistance from me or attempts to get out of
>those roles were met with strong disapproval.
<snip>
Deirdre S.
a tiny room with a sleeping shelf myself, lots of times, in order
-not- to be inside with my family. :-(
So she may have had the best of it after all...
Deirdre
Christina Foster Peterson
Congratulations!
Tina
"CynConn" <Cyn...@shoesyahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:4ouB9.47$vo3....@news.uswest.net...
Lee S. Billings
says...
>
>Hi Dierdre,
>
>Finally I've found something to disagree with you on. Ego.
>
>Some of my definitions are a result my psychology studies. From that, I
>define ego as a sense of individual, valuable self. An abused woman will
>usually lack a healthy ego. Meaning that she lacks a sense of individual
>intrinsic value, not that she doesn't brag.
Yes. Ego *per se* is not a bad thing -- it's a necessary thing. *Too much* ego
is a bad thing. But the basic term "ego", though it has come to have negative
connotations, really means about the same thing as "self-esteem".
Celine
--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_
Deirdre S.
relationship takes tremendous courage. I think it may be even harder
than doing things where you risk your life, because what is at risk is
something we often value even more highly than our lives.
The hope of being loved. The feeling of being valued for yourself,
however different you may be from what someone else wants or expects.
So, my hat is tipped to you. You did a hard thing.
Deirdre
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:59:07 -0800, vj <websp...@booksnbytes.com>
wrote:
>vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Deirdre S.
><deir...@nospamatt.net> :
>
>]Are there situations where you will act in spite of disapproval?
>]Accept the likelihood of disapproval and do what you decide you need
>]to do anyway?
>
>this was the direct cause of most of my father's problems with me.
>
>he was a right-wing conservative.
>i am 'generally' a left-wing liberal with strong 'individual rights'
>leanings.
>
>
>-----------
>@vicki [SnuggleWench]
>(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
>(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
>-----------
>The Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.