Battle of Britain - Slightly OT
Tracy Barber
Just watched the "Battle of Britain". Bob would love this movie, will
all the areo-acrobatics and dogfights. Amazing what a few did for so
many.
In the movie (and we were discussing this before), there were a few
philatelic items: In the beginning, the Germans were riding along some
road, getting prepped for some battle and the was a FELDPOST sign.
Don't know why I saw it, but just did.
I always wondered how field post operations went during wartime /
military excursions. Also have to wonder how freaky this must be to
try to deliver mail / etc. and be bombed while doing it!
There have been - to me - quite a few FELDPOST issues from WWI that
intrigue me - mainly the Austria ones with Franz Josef on them and the
unissued ones from his predecessor.
The next item, was a letter opened by one of the flyboys. It had the
obligatory QV / KGVI centennial issue stamp on it. I don't have my GB
catalogs handy, but it was the blue one. 2 1/2 pence? It was the
only stamp on the envelope. At least the movie was true to that
detail!
The Battle of Britain stamps that were issued years later were quite
cool as well. Anyone like these?
I'm just becoming someone interested in those old war movies as of
late.
Tracy Barber
Dave
changed the finale music from the Goodwin theme (much better music).
One of my uncles was in the battle, assigned to a squadron at Dover.
He was a Fleet Air Arm pilot only recently trained at the time and flew
Hurricanes. He had 3 confirmed kills and went on to fly Fairey Swordfish
torpedo planes. Within a year he was flying on the attack on the battleship
Bismark. I also have the movie "Sink the Bismark!" so my late uncle "stars"
in two of my DVDs. What truely amazes me is that the pride of the
Kreigmarine in three attacks failed to shoot down even one of those
antiquated planes (though the movie erroniously has some blown up while
attacking).
Question: Has the Bismark ever shown up on a stamp?
Dave
"Tracy Barber" <Moh...@SPAMadirondack-pc.com> wrote in message
news:3f8cdb17....@news-server.nycap.rr.com...
Rodney
There is a brief pic in this delightful Polish war write up,
which should enthuse.
http://members.shaw.ca/rskulski/19401942.html
The Polish destroyer Piorun was involved
but the Bismark is barely visable.
But anyhow, there you go.
(and I might add, the HMS Rodney was involved in the goings on)
--
rod...@touch88gum.com.au
(Remove gum to reply)
"Dave" <De...@NOSPAMrochester.com> wrote in message news:yZSkb.52495$Hs.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Bob Ingraham
> I have this movie on VHS and DVD. I did notice on the DVD they
> changed the finale music from the Goodwin theme (much better music).
> One of my uncles was in the battle, assigned to a squadron at Dover.
> He was a Fleet Air Arm pilot only recently trained at the time and flew
> Hurricanes. He had 3 confirmed kills and went on to fly Fairey Swordfish
> torpedo planes. Within a year he was flying on the attack on the battleship
> Bismark. I also have the movie "Sink the Bismark!" so my late uncle "stars"
> in two of my DVDs. What truely amazes me is that the pride of the
> Kreigmarine in three attacks failed to shoot down even one of those
> antiquated planes (though the movie erroniously has some blown up while
> attacking).
> Question: Has the Bismark ever shown up on a stamp?
> Dave
What a wonderful family history! Do you have postal items from your uncle?
You could certainly have a field day working to build thematic collections
around both the Battle of Britain and the sinking of the Bismarck. While you
are working on the Bismarck collection, you could listen to the Johnny
Horton song, Sink the Bismarck.
I don't know of any Bismarck stamps, but I haven't looked, either; my Second
World War collections consists mostly of contemporaneous stamps and covers
rather than commemorative material issued in later years. But there
certainly *should* be a stamp if there isn't already! I suppose a dual
Britain/German issue would be too much to hope for....
Did you see the wonderful Robert Ballard/National Georgraphic special,
"Search for the Battleship Bismarck"? It's a superb blending of undersea
footage and computer graphics. Ballard, of course, is the "discoverer" of
the Titanic; I learned only recently that he is one of my neighbors, having
taken over as curator of Vancouver's Maritime Museum, which houses the
famous R.C.M.P. St. Roch, the first ship to traverse the Northwest Passage
from west to east. (See Canada Scott #777).
Back to the Battle of Britain, Susan and I recently watched an excellent
Czech film, Dark Blue World, concerning the experiences of Czech pilots
flying for the RAF in the Battle of Britain. Like most such films these
days, the flight scenes are made mostly using models and computer graphics;
in the case of Dark Blue World, these "special effects" are just remarkable.
I need to do more reading about the Battle of Britain, by my understanding
so far is that it was a "near-run thing". The Germans, although they had
been "defeated" in the air, had so worn down the RAF that even one more
German attack might have brought about a German victory, especially
considering the almost complete success of the continuing submarine blockade
of the British Isles.
Bob Ingraham
Tracy Barber
wrote:
> I have this movie on VHS and DVD. I did notice on the DVD they
>changed the finale music from the Goodwin theme (much better music).
> One of my uncles was in the battle, assigned to a squadron at Dover.
>He was a Fleet Air Arm pilot only recently trained at the time and flew
>Hurricanes. He had 3 confirmed kills and went on to fly Fairey Swordfish
>torpedo planes. Within a year he was flying on the attack on the battleship
>Bismark. I also have the movie "Sink the Bismark!" so my late uncle "stars"
>in two of my DVDs.
Cool. I have that on tape and it's a fave of mine. Once in a while
History channel replays it. That, and the "Nazi Ghost Train".
>hat truely amazes me is that the pride of the
>Kreigmarine in three attacks failed to shoot down even one of those
>antiquated planes (though the movie erroniously has some blown up while
>attacking).
Heh. They were courageous indeed flying in the obligatory "stringbag"
flying machine. What a trip!
> Question: Has the Bismark ever shown up on a stamp?
I have never seen it.
Tracy Barber
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>G'day Dave,
>
>There is a brief pic in this delightful Polish war write up,
>which should enthuse.
>http://members.shaw.ca/rskulski/19401942.html
It appears that a very small indication of the Bismark is found on
this stamp. The Piorun was a heck of a lot smaller that Bismark!
>The Polish destroyer Piorun was involved
>but the Bismark is barely visable.
>But anyhow, there you go.
Cool...
>(and I might add, the HMS Rodney was involved in the goings on)
Didn't the Rodney strike first blood on the Bismark?
Tracy Barber
Rodney
| Didn't the Rodney strike first blood on the Bismark?
Don't know Tracy,
My interst as kid, was always in the Graf Spee, the pocket battleship that
scuttled herself just outside the River Plate.
.....but I tell you what, like boB mentioned, I have had Johnny Horton's
song "Sink the Bismark" on my mind all morning, I was humming
it in the shower.......it's now becoming extremely irritating!
TC
wrote:
> I have this movie on VHS and DVD. I did notice on the DVD they
>changed the finale music from the Goodwin theme (much better music).
> One of my uncles was in the battle, assigned to a squadron at Dover.
>He was a Fleet Air Arm pilot only recently trained at the time and flew
>Hurricanes. He had 3 confirmed kills and went on to fly Fairey Swordfish
>torpedo planes. Within a year he was flying on the attack on the battleship
>Bismark. I also have the movie "Sink the Bismark!" so my late uncle "stars"
>in two of my DVDs. What truely amazes me is that the pride of the
>Kreigmarine in three attacks failed to shoot down even one of those
>antiquated planes (though the movie erroniously has some blown up while
>attacking).
> Question: Has the Bismark ever shown up on a stamp?
>Dave
===============================================================================
Dave:
Yes. At least two stamps were issued that show the Bismarck.
Bismarck (German battleship, 1940-1941)
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/germany/gersh-b/bismarck.htm
Marshall Islands 1998, December 1. History's Greatest Fighting Ships.
Scott 680 Sheet of 25 different stamps (33 cents).
http://www.unicover.com/ecatimag/MI-C137-.jpg
One stamp (Scott #680w) shows Bismarck. [bottom center stamp]
Marshall Islands 1991, May 27. 50 Years - Sinking of the Bismarck,
Scott 278-281 4x50 cent se-tenant block.
#280 shows the Bismarck (lower left stamp)
http://www.unicover.com/ecatimag/MI-W21-T.jpg
Interestingly, Canada's wartime $1 destroyer stamp (previously
thought to be modeled on a Canadian destroyer) was actually
modeled on a photo of HMS Cossack, a UK tribal class destroyer.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~jproc/iroquois/tribal_stamp.jpg
Ironically, the Cossack was involved in the sinking of the Bismarck,
(May 1941) but was itself sunk on November 11, 1941 - eight months
prior to the stamp being issued.
Blair
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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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tony
Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber) wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:48:57 +0800, "Rodney" <rod...@touch88.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >G'day Dave,
> >
> >There is a brief pic in this delightful Polish war write up,
> >which should enthuse.
> >http://members.shaw.ca/rskulski/19401942.html
>
> It appears that a very small indication of the Bismark is found on
> this stamp. The Piorun was a heck of a lot smaller that Bismark!
>
No doubt the artist was rather close to the Piorun. If the Bismark was
eight miles away it would look small ;-)
--
Tony Clayton tony.cla...@pem.cam.ac.uk or to...@tclayton.demon.co.uk
Coins of the UK : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/coins.html
Values of Coins of the UK : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/values/coins.html
Metals used in Coins : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/metal.html
Sent using RISC OS on an Acorn Strong Arm RiscPC
... Excuse me, I have to recharge my flamethrower.
Grandpa
sailing ships, something I love and build models of, everything was fine
and I was mellowing out, and you just HAD to post this pic with some
beautiful stamps in it. Now I'm jonesing for ships again......... At
this rate I'll never get the album done for my grandson<G>.
TC wrote:
> Dave:
>
> Yes. At least two stamps were issued that show the Bismarck.
>
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>In message <3f94560b...@news-server.nycap.rr.com>
> Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:48:57 +0800, "Rodney" <rod...@touch88.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >G'day Dave,
>> >
>> >There is a brief pic in this delightful Polish war write up,
>> >which should enthuse.
>> >http://members.shaw.ca/rskulski/19401942.html
>>
>> It appears that a very small indication of the Bismark is found on
>> this stamp. The Piorun was a heck of a lot smaller that Bismark!
>>
>
>No doubt the artist was rather close to the Piorun. If the Bismark was
>eight miles away it would look small ;-)
That was one BIG SHIP. I'm truly surprised it even floated. The same
with Tirpitz, the Bismark's sister ship.
Tracy Barber
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>
>| Didn't the Rodney strike first blood on the Bismark?
>
>Don't know Tracy,
>My interst as kid, was always in the Graf Spee, the pocket battleship that
>scuttled herself just outside the River Plate.
That too! Those battles are something else.
I truly like the historical records of the Battle of Jutland
manouvering. In the books I have, great detail was shown in which
direction they went, back and forth.
There are others, to be sure, but Bismark was the grandpappy!
Tracy Barber
TC
wrote:
===========================================================
Grandpa:
How can you say that? #B^)
If we wanted to get you collecting 'Ships on Stamps' ,
we would have posted:
http://www.moodybluestamps.ns.ca/images/Bluenose.gif or
http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/bluenosestamp01.jpg
Grandpa
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:13:00 -0600, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Here I was, just coming down from my desire to do a thematic set of old
>>sailing ships, something I love and build models of, everything was fine
>>and I was mellowing out, and you just HAD to post this pic with some
>>beautiful stamps in it. Now I'm jonesing for ships again......... At
>>this rate I'll never get the album done for my grandson<G>.
>>
>>TC wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Dave:
>>>
>>>Yes. At least two stamps were issued that show the Bismarck.
>>>
>>>Marshall Islands 1998, December 1. History's Greatest Fighting Ships.
>>>Scott 680 Sheet of 25 different stamps (33 cents).
>>>http://www.unicover.com/ecatimag/MI-C137-.jpg
>>>One stamp (Scott #680w) shows Bismarck. [bottom center stamp]
>
>
> ===========================================================
> Grandpa:
>
> How can you say that? #B^)
>
> If we wanted to get you collecting 'Ships on Stamps' ,
> we would have posted:
> http://www.moodybluestamps.ns.ca/images/Bluenose.gif or
> http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/bluenosestamp01.jpg
>
> Blair
No no NOOOOO, a pox on thee........ Is there no peace???<major grin>
TC
wrote:
>TC wrote:
>> ===========================================================
>> Grandpa:
>>
>> How can you say that? #B^)
>>
>> If we wanted to get you collecting 'Ships on Stamps' ,
>> we would have posted:
>> http://www.moodybluestamps.ns.ca/images/Bluenose.gif or
>> http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/bluenosestamp01.jpg
>>
>> Blair
>
>No no NOOOOO, a pox on thee........ Is there no peace???<major grin>
No escape Grandpa! Might as well surrender now.
They're coming at you... from both on top of
http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/spainstamp.jpg
and below the waves.
http://www.decklog.com/snugharbor/images/stamp.gif
3B*P
malcolm hirst
bombs over Berlin. In a fit of rage Uncle Adolf ordered the Luftwaffe
to switch its bombing from RAF stations and other suitable military
targets to London.Bad news for Londoners,good news for the survival of
the RAF. I don't know how true this is but certainly it came in the
nick of time.
Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber) wrote in message news:<3f945589...@news-server.nycap.rr.com>...
Peter Aitken
news:c28b38d1.03102...@posting.google.com...
> Rumour has it that one night an RAF bomber accidently jettisoned its
> bombs over Berlin. In a fit of rage Uncle Adolf ordered the Luftwaffe
> to switch its bombing from RAF stations and other suitable military
> targets to London.Bad news for Londoners,good news for the survival of
> the RAF. I don't know how true this is but certainly it came in the
> nick of time.
>
There's some truth in this, althought the details are different. As I recall
from my WW2 reading, the RAF intentionally bombed Berlin, and the German's
switch from bombing military targets to British cities was an unintended
result.
--
Peter Aitken
Remove the crap from my email address before using.
Bob Ingraham
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> Date: 24 Oct 2003 01:14:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT
>
> Rumour has it that one night an RAF bomber accidently jettisoned its
> bombs over Berlin. In a fit of rage Uncle Adolf ordered the Luftwaffe
> to switch its bombing from RAF stations and other suitable military
> targets to London.Bad news for Londoners,good news for the survival of
> the RAF. I don't know how true this is but certainly it came in the
> nick of time.
The problem with rumour is that it is often partly or wholly incorrect. Or
so it's rumoured. Here's what happened:
On August 24-25, the Luftwaffe bombed both RAF bases and London itself. Ten
days earlier they had bombed British ports. The first raid against Berlin
took place on August 26, and raids continued for three days. Dusseldorf,
Essen, and other German cities were also bombed. Hitler did use the raid(s)
on Berlin as a pretext for more extensive raids on London, and that decision
gave a reprieve to RAF Fighter Command. You might wish to read Dan Ford's
review of a recent book about the Battle of Britain at
<http://www.danford.net/overy.htm>.
The first raid on Berlin, while it produced little in the way of serious
damage or loss of life, was hardly an accidental jettisoning of bombs. It
included 81 bombers (although only 20 or so actually reached Berlin, which
was at the limit of their range with a bomb load) and, like the American
raid on Tokyo later later in the war, was carried out more for propaganda
purposes than any strategic or tactical reason. The British, who were being
badly beaten on all fronts, needed a victory, and they got a small one in
the Berlin raid.
And it's not like Hitler never intended to hit civilian targets. While
Albert Speer's book *Inside the Third Reich* must be read with skepticism
about his motives (he claimed not to know about the Holocaust), it does
reveal some interesting information. He quotes Hitler in a 1940
conversation:
"Have you ever looked at a map of London? It is so closely built up that one
fire alone would suffice to destroy the whole city, as happened once before,
200 years ago. Goring wants to use innumerable incendiary bombs of an
altogether new type to create sources of fire in all parts of London. Fires
everywhere. Thousands of them. Then they'll unite in one gigantic area
conflagration. Goring has the right idea. Explosive bombs don't work, but it
can be done with incendiary bombs ã total destruction of London. What use
will their fire department be once that really starts?"
(Interestingly, it was the RAF that went on to develop the bombers and bombs
that were necessary to burn down cities; the Luftwaffe never did have that
capability. It's worth mentioning, too, that firestorms cannot be planned.
They happen only when the right combination of fuel and atmospheric
conditions are present. )
Before the Germans bombed London, they had already bombed several cities in
Europe, including Warsaw, Paris, and Rotterdam. The RAF was literally unable
to respond in kind: at that time the Brits had no long-range heavy bombers,
bombing technology was not well advanced (most bombs failed to come even
close to specific targets), and the bombs themselves (250 lb.
general-purpose demolition bombs were surplus from the First World War)
often failed to explode. Early in the war, so many RAF bombers crashed or
were shot down by German fighters, there were more British than German
casualties.
From a philatelic point of view, it's interesting, and not surprising, that
there seem to be few postwar German stamps that commemorate the war. A 1953
issue (Scott #697) memorializes prisoners of war (German POWs, presumably).
In 1963, Scott #855 recognized postwar relief organizations. There are
probably others (my newest catalogue is a 1986 copy), but nothing like the
outpouring of stamps from the Allied nations, including Russia. I recently
read an interesting book, *On the Natural History of Destruction*, which
argues that the RAF/USAAF bombing campaign against Germany ultimately was so
horrific that the survivors literally wiped it from their collective memory
and conscience. Apparently there has not been a single significant novel
about the bombing of Germany written from the German perspective by a German
author.
Bob Ingraham
-------
Author of "Joe Hicks and the Battle for Europe" --
The chance discovery of wartime postcard reveals the tragically
short life of an RCAF airman: http://www.ingraham.ca/bob/joehicks.html
Hear my CBC Radio interview about Joe Hicks at this URL:
http://www.ingraham.ca/bob/joehicks.mp3
-------
Tracy Barber
hirst) wrote:
>Rumour has it that one night an RAF bomber accidently jettisoned its
>bombs over Berlin. In a fit of rage Uncle Adolf ordered the Luftwaffe
>to switch its bombing from RAF stations and other suitable military
>targets to London.Bad news for Londoners,good news for the survival of
>the RAF. I don't know how true this is but certainly it came in the
>nick of time.
Anything, towards the end of the BoB, was a godsend for the RAF. They
were hurting units, to be sure. Churchill stated it best...
I'm learning more and more that Hitler was a parody of something not
entirely his own as well as with support whipped up into the
hysterical frenzy of the day. 'Twas watching a show last night that
reveals a lot more to the mix... Anyway, when the Hitler subject
comes up again, I'll comment.
The RAF were a tough bunch of people. Lady luck smiled upon them...
Tracy Barber
Tracy Barber
Germany was also planning a Channel assualt as well. When the BoB was
over, the Channel invasion was dropped as well, right?
Tracy Barber
Grandpa
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:06:21 -0600, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>TC wrote:
>>
>>>===========================================================
>>>Grandpa:
>>>
>>>How can you say that? #B^)
>>>
>>>If we wanted to get you collecting 'Ships on Stamps' ,
>>>we would have posted:
>>>http://www.moodybluestamps.ns.ca/images/Bluenose.gif or
>>>http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/bluenosestamp01.jpg
>>>
>>>Blair
>>
>>No no NOOOOO, a pox on thee........ Is there no peace???<major grin>
>
> No escape Grandpa! Might as well surrender now.
>
> They're coming at you... from both on top of
> http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/spainstamp.jpg
> and below the waves.
> http://www.decklog.com/snugharbor/images/stamp.gif
Funny, the folks in our stamp club said the same to me at the meeting
last night, plus that sly smile, like they knew something I didn't.
I think I'm TUTOW - t*ts up and taking on water. Gurgle glub glub.....
Tracy Barber
wrote:
Hitler didn't want to invade Britain at all. Bob does have it right
here.
>While
>Albert Speer's book *Inside the Third Reich* must be read with skepticism
>about his motives (he claimed not to know about the Holocaust),
They all lied... :)
>it does
>reveal some interesting information. He quotes Hitler in a 1940
>conversation:
>"Have you ever looked at a map of London? It is so closely built up that one
>fire alone would suffice to destroy the whole city, as happened once before,
>200 years ago. Goring wants to use innumerable incendiary bombs of an
>altogether new type to create sources of fire in all parts of London. Fires
>everywhere. Thousands of them. Then they'll unite in one gigantic area
>conflagration. Goring has the right idea. Explosive bombs don't work, but it
>can be done with incendiary bombs ã total destruction of London. What use
>will their fire department be once that really starts?"
Interesting...
>(Interestingly, it was the RAF that went on to develop the bombers and bombs
>that were necessary to burn down cities; the Luftwaffe never did have that
>capability. It's worth mentioning, too, that firestorms cannot be planned.
>They happen only when the right combination of fuel and atmospheric
>conditions are present. )
Except Dresden, of course. Made mince meat out of a non-strategic
city.
>Before the Germans bombed London, they had already bombed several cities in
>Europe, including Warsaw, Paris, and Rotterdam. The RAF was literally unable
>to respond in kind: at that time the Brits had no long-range heavy bombers,
>bombing technology was not well advanced (most bombs failed to come even
>close to specific targets), and the bombs themselves (250 lb.
>general-purpose demolition bombs were surplus from the First World War)
>often failed to explode. Early in the war, so many RAF bombers crashed or
>were shot down by German fighters, there were more British than German
>casualties.
>
>From a philatelic point of view, it's interesting, and not surprising, that
>there seem to be few postwar German stamps that commemorate the war.
>A 1953
>issue (Scott #697) memorializes prisoners of war (German POWs, presumably).
Other countries have, though...
>In 1963, Scott #855 recognized postwar relief organizations. There are
>probably others (my newest catalogue is a 1986 copy), but nothing like the
>outpouring of stamps from the Allied nations, including Russia. I recently
>read an interesting book, *On the Natural History of Destruction*, which
>argues that the RAF/USAAF bombing campaign against Germany ultimately was so
>horrific that the survivors literally wiped it from their collective memory
>and conscience. Apparently there has not been a single significant novel
>about the bombing of Germany written from the German perspective by a German
>author.
That may be interesting. To see the other side of the bombing. It's
sad that they had to go through that, but they SUPPORTEd a regime that
was taking them to hell in a handbasket.
How much sympathy should be spared?
Tracy Barber
Bob Ingraham
> Organization: The Kidz
> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:00:09 GMT
> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>
> It's worth mentioning, too, that firestorms cannot be planned.
>> They happen only when the right combination of fuel and atmospheric
>> conditions are present. )
>
> Except Dresden, of course. Made mince meat out of a non-strategic
> city.
No, Dresden is not an exception. As I said, a firestorm cannot be planned.
You can drop all the incendiaries you have, and burn lots of stuff, but a
true firestorm, with a central vortex of flame sucking the oxygen out of
peoples' lungs and destroying everything, only happens under the "right"
atmospheric conditions.
Questions about the morality of the Dresden bombing will never be answered
fully, no more than the controversy about abortion and same-sex marriages.
Dresden has taken on almost religious qualities. One seems to "believe in"
the necessity to bomb Dresden, or not, and rarely do people change their
minds. Some facts are useful: Although Arthur Harris, who led Bomber
Command, has been vilified for his role in the bombing of dresden, the RAF
and the U.S .Army Air Force shared equally in the bombing. There *were*
military targets in the city, several of them in fact. Civilians were *not*
strafed by fighters. Even at that late date, February, 1945, there was no
indication that the Germans were ready to give up; the Allies had come to
see every German soldier as dangerous. Many were no less fanatic than
Japanese soldiers had been in the Pacific, and would be in Okinawa.
(An interesting aside, and one of the few positive things to come out of the
Dresden bombing: One of the better books about the war by a German is the
two-volume diary kept from the 1930s almost to the end of the war by Victor
Klemperer, a Jew and a cousin to the famous director, Otto Klemperer. He and
his wife, a gentile, were living in Dresden at the time of the bombing. The
day before the raid, he was notified that he was to report the next day for
"transportion" to the East, which of course was most likely a death notice.
That night the bombers came, and in the resulting chaos, Klemperer and his
wife escaped Dresden and eventually reached American lines.)
One of the points made in the book I mentioned in my last post (*The Natural
History of Destruction*) is that the very existence of Bomber Command and
the Eighth Air Force, and all the training and infrastructure and supplies
that they demanded, meant that their use was inevitable. In other words, you
can't spend billions of dollars training bomber crews and building bombers
and bombs, and then not use them.
The same mechanisms are at work every day, on different levels, in our
society: Put a Saturday Night Special into the hands of a juvenile street
thug, and the chances are that someday he's going to shoot somebody with it.
Put helicopter gunships and missiles and assault rifles into the hands of an
army, and chances are that they're going to be used. Put plastique into the
hands of a terrorist, and chances are that it's going to be used.
Given this, it's hard to argue that any society is truly peaceful. The
philatelic evidence is there, in stamps which picture virtually every weapon
that's ever existed, and honor not a few men who rightfully could have been
at least tried for war crimes, if not convicted. Rightly or wrongly, Arthur
Harris was honored on a British stamp, along with other top British military
leaders. Winston Churchill, who has appeared on hundred, perhaps thousands,
of stamps, was largely responsible for the debacle at Gallipoli. Lyndon
Johnson cannot escape censure for ensuring the deaths of 58,000 Americans in
Vietnam, yet he appears on stamps. General MacArthur, also a common subject
on stamps, virtually ordered the executions of two Japanese generals for
"war crimes" that they were in no possible way responsible for. Stalin,
although he appeared on no American stamps, was known even before the war as
a bloodthirsty tyrant. Yet I have a 1943 American first day cover with a
cachet picturing him along with the other Allied leaders. See
<http://www.ingraham.ca/bob/alliednations.html>.
Bob Ingraham
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>> From: Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber)
>> Organization: The Kidz
>> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
>> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
>> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:00:09 GMT
>> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>>
>> It's worth mentioning, too, that firestorms cannot be planned.
>>> They happen only when the right combination of fuel and atmospheric
>>> conditions are present. )
>>
>> Except Dresden, of course. Made mince meat out of a non-strategic
>> city.
>
>No, Dresden is not an exception. As I said, a firestorm cannot be planned.
>You can drop all the incendiaries you have, and burn lots of stuff, but a
>true firestorm, with a central vortex of flame sucking the oxygen out of
>peoples' lungs and destroying everything, only happens under the "right"
>atmospheric conditions.
But - it did happen there. I don't know which side to lean towards.
Compassion for those that died or not, considering the circumstances.
<good snip>
Tracy Barber
Bob Ingraham
> From: Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber)
> Organization: The Kidz
> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:45:41 GMT
> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:19:14 GMT, Bob Ingraham <b.ing...@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>> From: Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber)
>>> Organization: The Kidz
>>> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
>>> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:00:09 GMT
>>> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>>>
>>> It's worth mentioning, too, that firestorms cannot be planned.
>>>> They happen only when the right combination of fuel and atmospheric
>>>> conditions are present. )
>>>
>>> Except Dresden, of course. Made mince meat out of a non-strategic
>>> city.
>>
>> No, Dresden is not an exception. As I said, a firestorm cannot be planned.
>> You can drop all the incendiaries you have, and burn lots of stuff, but a
>> true firestorm, with a central vortex of flame sucking the oxygen out of
>> peoples' lungs and destroying everything, only happens under the "right"
>> atmospheric conditions.
>
> But - it did happen there. I don't know which side to lean towards.
> Compassion for those that died or not, considering the circumstances.
Indeed. There probably aren't words in our vocabulary to describe what it
must have been like. Despite the victory parades, and victory cancels, and
victory stamps, there were no victors. All of us lost, right up to and well
beyond our own generation.
Bob
>
> <good snip>
>
> Tracy Barber
Alan
Whilst taking tea with a sociable bunyip a kangaroo bounded by with the
following message.
"Bob Ingraham" <b.ing...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:BBBEF292.7EDA%b.ing...@shaw.ca...
>
>
<Snip >
> > But - it did happen there. I don't know which side to lean towards.
> > Compassion for those that died or not, considering the circumstances.
>
> Indeed. There probably aren't words in our vocabulary to describe what it
> must have been like. Despite the victory parades, and victory cancels, and
> victory stamps, there were no victors. All of us lost, right up to and
well
> beyond our own generation.
>
> Bob
> >
I'm sorry to disagree with you Bob, but the destruction of the Nazi Regime
in
Germany was right and necessary, it was a murderous regime that killed
millions (not only Jews but Poles, Russians), the German people actively
supported the regime, with a few very brave exceptions.
What followed (the Soviet Oppression in eastern Europe) was not good
In the end humanity was the victor
Alan
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 22/10/2003
Bob Ingraham
>> Indeed. There probably aren't words in our vocabulary to describe what it
>> must have been like. Despite the victory parades, and victory cancels, and
>> victory stamps, there were no victors. All of us lost, right up to and
> well
>> beyond our own generation.
>>
>> Bob
>>>
>
> I'm sorry to disagree with you Bob, but the destruction of the Nazi Regime
> in
> Germany was right and necessary, it was a murderous regime that killed
> millions (not only Jews but Poles, Russians), the German people actively
> supported the regime, with a few very brave exceptions.
>
destruction of the Nazis was absolutely necessary, and in the end it was
incomplete. Most postwar trials of Nazis (not Nurumberg, there were many
others that lasted for many years) were carried out in Germany with less
than full dedication on the part of the judiciary, and many lower-echelon
Nazis literally got away with mass murder and went right back into society.
Some members of the Gestapo became members Reinhard Heydrich's
Einsatzgruppen death squads in Poland and Russia, and personally murdered
thousands of Jews. They returned to ordinary policework during and the war
and after; in retirement, some of them even drew pensions for the period
they spent murdering Jews.
> What followed (the Soviet Oppression in eastern Europe) was not good.
That's an understatement! And it simply buttresses my argument: The war, and
then the Allied Victory, made the Soviet subjugation of Eastern Europe
possible. One almost immediate outcome of that was the Cold War and the
terror that it brought to us in the form of nuclear and thermonuclear
arsenals. Almost my entire elementary and high-school experience was colored
by anti-Communist sentiment and propaganda, and fear of nuclear attack by
Russia. Since childhood, I have several times had a recurring nightmare of
being near a nuclear bomb when it was detonated. I don't think that anyone
would argue that that's a good thing! My "adventure" in Vietnam
> In the end humanity was the victor.
The Allied victory was a pyrrhic victory at best. While the Allied victory
over the Axis allowed a few generations of privileged people to live in
relative wealth and security, the war nevertheless provided the fertile
ground for most of the economic, environmental, social and political
problems that the world faces today.
The Korean War, the Vietnam War and virtually every other war since 1945
have been rooted deeply in the Second World War, which sprang in large part
from the unfinished First World War. Lots of historians see the two world
wars as one war separated by a longish ceasefire. Some go further than that:
Historian Eric Hobsbawm, in *The Age of Extremes: The Short Twentieth
Century 1914-1991*, characterizes this period as the "Age of Catastrophe".
Since little has improved since 1991, and recent events in the Middle East
and the increasing worldwide activities of terrorists have proved to be
incredibly destabilizing, I see no reason to believe that the "Age of
Catastrophe" has run its course. Taking the long view, the victory
celebrations of 1945 seem to have been premature. But at least they
generated some interesting stamps and postal history.
Bob Ingraham
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>
Ya know, it's good to hear someone speak about the connection of WWII
to WWI - not simply of the Versailles Treaty, but like you did. An
unfinished war. The League of Nations had no teeth.
What's really goofy is that the Germans were aching for a fight since
the Franco-Prussian war and Bismark. So, to me, it goes back that far
for what I would call "the extended war" - (1870 - 1946) - give or
take a few years. Quotes have been made of a Germany rising to the
top with the Kaiser on a pedestal like Bismark before... We all know
the Austrian assasination affair was a lynchpin excuse for German
aggression, although they weren't directly involved with the
assasination.
WWI may have started earlier with the Morocco affairs... but gained
momentum after Germany offered help to the Austrians. Ah, the grand
war is afoot again! Science fiction at it's earliest became science
fact - planes, tanks, gas, Zeppelins - sheesh. The end of chivalrous
warfare and the beginning of something much more terrifying. The
Germans called it the "horrors" or "horrible" (or something quite
similar) when blitzkreiging Liege and Namur in Belgium.
That was before the term was used in WWII and Stuka bombers effected
their toll. The Von Schlieffen plan was underway!
WWII was a sick mess. Hitler wasn't really using ALL of his OWN
ideas. Mein Kampf wasn't all his. That would give him too much
credit. Think of Karl Haushofer (liebensraum), Nietzsche
(ubermensch), Wagner (grand drama) and a few others thrown into the
mix. Thus became Hitler. I've begun to realize that he was more of a
parody and a puppet himself - caught up in the occult, charismatic
hyperfrenzy of the times.
A lot of postal history was built on the blood of many people during
these wars. If you think about it - much of postal history is about
all of this bloodshed.
Tracy Barber
Bob Ingraham
> Organization: The Kidz
> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>
> these wars. If you think about it - much of postal history is about
> all of this bloodshed.
>
> Tracy Barber
Covers in my collection include:
-- An "Israel" cover mailed by a German Jew to Argentina in 1940. By this
time, as a result of the Nazi "Aryan" laws passed in 1933, German Jews
without Jewish names had to use the middle name "Israel" for men and
"Sara(h)" for women whenever their names were written or required by
officials. The letter is from Krefeld, Germany; only a handful of Jews from
Krefeld survived the Holocaust.
-- A 1940 cover from a Jew imprisoned at Dachau.
-- Two KIA returned covers, one sent to an American infantry officer killed
in the Battle of the Bulge, and one to a member of the Canadian Grenadiers
Armoured (tank) Regiment, killed the day after the Battle for the Falaise
Gap.
Holding these artifacts in one's hands is a poignant experience.
Bob Ingraham
Bob Ingraham
> Organization: The Kidz
> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>
> the Franco-Prussian war and Bismark. So, to me, it goes back that far
> for what I would call "the extended war" - (1870 - 1946) - give or
> take a few years. Quotes have been made of a Germany rising to the
> top with the Kaiser on a pedestal like Bismark before... We all know
> aggression, although they weren't directly involved with the
> assasination.
All of history is of course a continuum, measured from a given moment in
time; everything prior to that moment influences future events and
conditions. Since we can't teach "History 101 -- All of Time in a Semester,"
it's necessary to separate historical time into discrete elements. To me, it
makes sense to make 1914 the year that the present "age of chaos" started.
The reasons are technological.
The First World War served as a "test bed" to introduce several innovative
weapons into warfare -- the modern machine gun, the tank, the submarine, the
fighter plane, the bomber, aerial bombs, and chemical warfare in the form of
mustard gas. Other innovations were aerial reconnaissance, telegraphy,
radio, and concepts such as the long-range area bombing of cities and the
identification of civilian populations as combatants. Before 1914, most of
these things were, as you pointed out, science fiction.
For a time following the First World War, governments, particularly the
British and American governments, shrank from further involvement with
weapons development and even decreased the size of their military. Germany,
of course, clandestinely developed a formidable and modern military force,
although they still relied primarily on horses for transportation. Following
Germany's attack on Poland in 1939, military and political goals of nations
around the world focussed on improving the lethality of weapons to the point
where, today, no one is safe.
The deadly German machine guns that mowed down entire battalions of British
Soldiers was the ancestor of today's helicopter-borne mini-gun. The clumsy
tank of the First World War became the Tiger tank of Germany and today's
Bradley Fighting Vehicle. The 250 lb. general-purpose demolition bomb became
the Blockbuster and finally the atomic bomb. The flimsy biplanes of the
"Great War" have become today's world-ranging stealth bombers. The
torpedo-armed U-boat capable of sinking a ship with one torpedo morphed into
an undersea nightmare capable of launching Armageddon on any city in the
world from almost any location in the world.
Most of these developments are documented on postage stamps; it's no wonder
that flowers and birds and butterflies on stamps are so popular. But I'll
have to admit that it's wartime stamps and postal history that interest me
far more. Perhaps it's just morbid fascination. But I do like my chicken
stamps! Read into that anything that you wish! :^)
Bob Ingraham
Bob Ingraham
stamps issued by the Soviet Union in 1935. The following is the write-up
from my album; it includes a (tested) link to an image of the stamps.
Bob Ingraham
-----
Peace Stamps of the Soviet Union -- 1935
The Soviet Union -- Russia -- used stamps to portray itself as a modern,
liberal nation which valued freedom, abhorred social injustice, and
advocated peace.
In 1935, the U.S.S.R. issued a set of stamps which, by portraying the
horrors of modern warfare, supposedly exhibited Russiaąs peaceful
intentions. The stamps show the influence of the łart deco˛ movement of the
period between the two world wars. Art deco design used geometric formality
and simplicity to transform or distort reality.
<http://www.ingraham.ca/bob/peacepropaganda1.jpg>
For her part, Russia was hardly a peaceable kingdom. In 1939, in the fourth
year after these łpeace stamps˛ were issued, Russia...
-- invaded Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania, starting a brutal occupation that
ended with annexation into the Soviet Union;
-- invaded Finland, beginning the Russo-Finnish War, although Russia and
Finland had signed a nonaggression pact in 1932;
-- and invaded Poland, absorbing Byelorussia and the Western Ukraine into
the Soviet Union.
In a sense, the 1935 stamps accurately predicted the first wide-scale use of
the łarea bombing˛ of cities in the Second World War. The idea was first
suggested, as a means to maintain peace, by an Italian, Giulio Douhet, after
the First World War. He believed that aerial bombing would be so horrific
that war would become unthinkable, or at least that the victims of the
bombing would soon seek peace. It did not quite work out that way. In 1925,
American mercenaries flying for Spain bombed the undefended town of
Chechaouen in Morocco. In 1937, German pilots flying for Spain's General
Franco attacked Guernica in a prelude to the massive destruction of British,
German and Japanese cities in the Second World War.
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>> From: Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber)
>> Organization: The Kidz
>> Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
>> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
>> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:30:49 GMT
>> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
>>
>> What's really goofy is that the Germans were aching for a fight since
>> the Franco-Prussian war and Bismark. So, to me, it goes back that far
>> for what I would call "the extended war" - (1870 - 1946) - give or
>> take a few years. Quotes have been made of a Germany rising to the
>> top with the Kaiser on a pedestal like Bismark before... We all know
>> the Austrian assassination affair was a lynchpin excuse for German
>> aggression, although they weren't directly involved with the
>> assasination.
>
>All of history is of course a continuum, measured from a given moment in
>time; everything prior to that moment influences future events and
>conditions. Since we can't teach "History 101 -- All of Time in a Semester,"
>it's necessary to separate historical time into discrete elements. To me, it
>makes sense to make 1914 the year that the present "age of chaos" started.
>The reasons are technological.
Yup, as mentioned. The end of chivalrous warfare. Small exceptions
were noted, especially with fighter pilots and U-boat captains. There
was somewhat of a mutual admiration thing going on between them at
first. Things like waving to each other, not shooting each other
down, or at worst, making them extremely comfy when shot down and
survived. The Blue Max was the achievement of the day. The Red Baron
actually existed.
Other things like the infamous Christmas Eve trading of goods and so
forth was a common occurence up and down the trenches. They'd be
singing "Silent Night" about a 1000 yards apart, stand up, go to each
other's trenches, trade goodies, etc. and then head back. Shortly
afterwards firing begain again in earnest. But, even that lull showed
some humanity in a situation where humanity was far removed.
In Gallipolli, there were pauses in the action where they went out to
collect the dead and wounded, they were piled up that high. ...and
then after a certain time, fighting started again.
In WWII? No freaking way.
>The First World War served as a "test bed" to introduce several innovative
>weapons into warfare -- the modern machine gun, the tank, the submarine, the
>fighter plane, the bomber, aerial bombs, and chemical warfare in the form of
>mustard gas. Other innovations were aerial reconnaissance, telegraphy,
>radio, and concepts such as the long-range area bombing of cities and the
>identification of civilian populations as combatants. Before 1914, most of
>these things were, as you pointed out, science fiction.
Yuppers. One thing you did forget was gas raids. The French tried it
first, without much success. The Germans turned it on the Canadians
and they felt the first full wrath of gas warfare. Sheesh...
Mechanized mass killing, depending on the way the winds blew.
Sometimes, though, gas backfired!
>For a time following the First World War, governments, particularly the
>British and American governments, shrank from further involvement with
>weapons development and even decreased the size of their military. Germany,
>of course, clandestinely developed a formidable and modern military force,
>although they still relied primarily on horses for transportation. Following
>Germany's attack on Poland in 1939, military and political goals of nations
>around the world focussed on improving the lethality of weapons to the point
>where, today, no one is safe.
What many people don't realize is that WWII didn't have to happen on
the Western Front. If France rallied at the Rhine, they would've
stopped Germany before they built up heavier forces. As you
mentioned, horse and carriage were still used. France wasn't up to
the task, it seemed.
The Anschluss was a farce infiltrated by insiders in Austrian govt.
and the murder of Dollfuss didn't help.
Bohemia & Moravia was the last of the "prep" work. Britain and
Chamberlain, in particular, shouldn't have let that happen. They gave
up the fortifications along the Eastern Front! It may have taken
Germany a while longer to get past them and enter Russia had they not
appeased der Feuhrer.
Russia was allowing weapons to be made on its soil. Other countries
were doing the same. Money walks, BS talks...
>The deadly German machine guns that mowed down entire battalions of British
>Soldiers was the ancestor of today's helicopter-borne mini-gun. The clumsy
>tank of the First World War became the Tiger tank of Germany and today's
>Bradley Fighting Vehicle.
Or, as I respectfully add, the Russian T-34. A formidable foe at the
time - went up against the strongest the Panzer Corps could toss at
it. Think of Kursk and Zhoukov... Ya know, in spite of what the
leaders did back then, the Russian people made the best of what they
had and suffered aplenty. Putting the stuff that happened in Berlin
and other things after the war, I definitely give the Russians credit
where it was due - at that time.
In WWI, they lost many millions as well on the Eastern Front. They
backed Serbia when few else would do so. There were a lot of WWI
battles in Galicia, the Baltic and in the Pripet Marshes that were
awesome. Also, their push through the Caucasus into Armenia and
Turkey. Turkey was killing off Armenians, an unsung song...
>The 250 lb. general-purpose demolition bomb became
>the Blockbuster and finally the atomic bomb. The flimsy biplanes of the
>"Great War" have become today's world-ranging stealth bombers. The
>torpedo-armed U-boat capable of sinking a ship with one torpedo morphed into
>an undersea nightmare capable of launching Armageddon on any city in the
>world from almost any location in the world.
Funny - both Germany and Japan had rocket powered planes either in
action or would be in a very short time before their respective
theaters ended. I can only imagine if the ME-262 (?) was being pushed
into heavier production. The Japanese had a few jet based prototypes
as well as a 9000 mile intercontinental bomber almost ready for prime
time. Can you imagine?
>Most of these developments are documented on postage stamps; it's no wonder
>that flowers and birds and butterflies on stamps are so popular.
Yeah - the spiritual side of nature instead of the horror.
>But I'll have to admit that it's wartime stamps and postal history that interest me
>far more.
That's why I've been posting like I have. It's quite interesting to
learn from our ancestors, predecessors and those that sacrifice their
lives so we can collect stamps without fear of persecution.
>Perhaps it's just morbid fascination. But I do like my chicken
>stamps! Read into that anything that you wish! :^)
Bwawk! Bwawk! Bwawk! :^P
Tracy Barber
TC
wrote:
>In 1937, German pilots flying for Spain's General Franco attacked
>Guernica in a prelude to the massive destruction of British,
>German and Japanese cities in the Second World War.
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location of Guernica: http://tinyurl.com/sh3l
Guernica, after the bombing:
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/photos/guernf.jpg
Guernica today, 16000 souls:
http://www.guiarte.com/guernica/infogeneral/images/guernicaarbol.jpg
The 800th anniversary of the town is commemorated on
a 1966 Spanish set (Scott 1347-49)
http://www.worldspain.com/imagenes/sellos/1720-1722.jpg
The Picasso painting:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-Desert/6794/pic/guernica.jpg
Perhaps Picasso's greatest achievement in terms of content and
symbolism, Guernica is his interpretation of the horrific
destruction of a small Basque village by German pro-Franco bombers
during the Spanish Civil War.
On Oct. 25, 1981, Spain issued a stamp / souvenir sheet (Scott 2252),
welcoming Guernica's arrival at the Prado Museum in Madrid.
The Spanish sheet contains a 200-peseta stamp surrounded by
a border area showing an enlarged detail of the painting.
http://global-spirit.com/Filatelia/guerni1.jpg
http://global-spirit.com/Filatelia/guerni2.jpg
Note: Picasso had been commissioned to paint a mural for the
Spanish pavilion at the Paris International Exhibition of 1937.
Legend has it that Picasso was asked by a German soldier,
upon seeing the Guernica painting, "Did you do this?"
to which Picasso replied "No, you did!".
He refused to allow the painting into Spain as long as
Generalissimo Francisco Franco ruled. The work hung in
New York City's Museum of Modern Art during its exile.
Czechoslovakia also had issued a 60h stamp, in 1966 -
(Michel 1637 Scott 1408) which commemorated
the 30th Anniversary of the International Brigade
The stamp showed Picasso´s famous painting "Guernica".
http://arthistory1.school.dk/pic-bar-Guernica-mnh.jpg
Later the Czechs also issued a 10 Kcs souvenir sheet showing
the same painting.
http://www.cancelnations.com/cnations/library/alzamiento/stamps/guernica.jpg
The painting also featured on one of a pair of stamps from Cameroon.
Issued in 1981, the 2 stamps commemorated the anniversaries of
Pablo Picasso and Paul Cezanne. (Michel 963-4)
http://www.silverdalen.se/stamps/bild/cameroun/ca81_picasso.jpg
Finally, Ghana issues a rare Guernica ERROR. The famous painting on
the Ghana Picasso sheet was incorrectly named. It should have been
called Standing Man. http://home.att.net/~cardan03/1603.jpg
Alan
news:3f9ad91d....@news-server.nycap.rr.com...
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:55:00 GMT, Bob Ingraham <b.ing...@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> >>
> >> I'm sorry to disagree with you Bob, but the destruction of the Nazi
Regime
> >> in
> >> Germany was right and necessary, it was a murderous regime that killed
> >> millions (not only Jews but Poles, Russians), the German people
actively
> >> supported the regime, with a few very brave exceptions.
> >>
> >The Korean War, the Vietnam War and virtually every other war since 1945
> >have been rooted deeply in the Second World War, which sprang in large
part
> >from the unfinished First World War. Lots of historians see the two world
> >wars as one war separated by a longish ceasefire. Some go further than
that:
> >Historian Eric Hobsbawm, in *The Age of Extremes: The Short Twentieth
> >Century 1914-1991*, characterizes this period as the "Age of
Catastrophe".
> >Since little has improved since 1991, and recent events in the Middle
East
> >and the increasing worldwide activities of terrorists have proved to be
> >incredibly destabilizing, I see no reason to believe that the "Age of
> >Catastrophe" has run its course. Taking the long view, the victory
> >celebrations of 1945 seem to have been premature. But at least they
> >generated some interesting stamps and postal history.
Can I suggest that linking WWI and WWII is possibly arguing with hindsight.
There was no reason in the 1920's that a second european war would break
out.
If Stressmann had survived, if Rathenau had survived, if France had had a
decent
political leadership, WWII at least in europe would not have occurred. The
rise of
the NSDAP was not inevitable and at least in voter turnout the NSDAP had
started
to decline.
28/05/1928 810,100
14/09/1928 6,408,600
31/07/1932 13,745,800
04/11/1932 11,737,000
Souce: Hitler and Stalin Parallel Lives
If Hindenburg hadn't called on Herr Hitler, but say Von Papen or Brunning,
then
things may have been different.
Lots of if buts and possibles. But history's like that. You can never
presume that
event X (The defeat of the Central Powers in 1918) will lead to Y (The start
of the
second world war).
> Ya know, it's good to hear someone speak about the connection of WWII
> to WWI - not simply of the Versailles Treaty, but like you did. An
> unfinished war. The League of Nations had no teeth.
It had no teeth because the parties really didn't want it to have any :)
>
> What's really goofy is that the Germans were aching for a fight since
> the Franco-Prussian war and Bismark. So, to me, it goes back that far
> for what I would call "the extended war" - (1870 - 1946) - give or
> take a few years. Quotes have been made of a Germany rising to the
> top with the Kaiser on a pedestal like Bismark before... We all know
> the Austrian assasination affair was a lynchpin excuse for German
> aggression, although they weren't directly involved with the
> assasination.
<SNIP interesting stuff>
> WWII was a sick mess. Hitler wasn't really using ALL of his OWN
> ideas. Mein Kampf wasn't all his. That would give him too much
> credit. Think of Karl Haushofer (liebensraum), Nietzsche
> (ubermensch), Wagner (grand drama) and a few others thrown into the
> mix. Thus became Hitler. I've begun to realize that he was more of a
> parody and a puppet himself - caught up in the occult, charismatic
> hyperfrenzy of the times.
He gave the orders, he was the heart and soul of the NSDAP regime, without
Hitler there would not have been an NSDAP regime.
> A lot of postal history was built on the blood of many people during
> these wars. If you think about it - much of postal history is about
> all of this bloodshed.
> Tracy Barber
Alan
Dave
recounts his own experience there in "Slaughterhouse Five".
Davenews:BBBEC941.7EC9%b.ing...@shaw.ca...
> > From: Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber)
> > Organization: The Kidz
> > Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
> > Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:00:09 GMT
> > Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
> > Except Dresden, of course. Made mince meat out of a non-strategic
> > city.
> No, Dresden is not an exception. As I said, a firestorm cannot be planned.
> You can drop all the incendiaries you have, and burn lots of stuff, but a
> true firestorm, with a central vortex of flame sucking the oxygen out of
> peoples' lungs and destroying everything, only happens under the "right"
> atmospheric conditions.
Bob Ingraham
> From: "Alan" <Jhe...@smalllake.com.xx>
> Organization: BigPond Internet Services
> Reply-To: "Alan" <Jhe...@bigpond.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:02:16 GMT
> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end>
>
> Can I suggest that linking WWI and WWII is possibly arguing with hindsight.
Can't very well link them today with foresight! However, many people
realized that the seeds for the next war had been sewn in the first. I
recently read a wonderful comment about that, but darned if I can remember
where.
>
> There was no reason in the 1920's that a second european war would break
> out.
No reason? Every reason! Versailles, which was concluded prematurely, was a
recipe for it! Borders redrawn without regard to culture, reparations that
were simply impossible for Germany to pay, leaders in France, Britain and
America who who both blind and stupid,
> If Stressmann had survived, if Rathenau had survived, if France had had a
> decent
> political leadership, WWII at least in europe would not have occurred.
Wonderful word, "If". *If* Hiter hadn't been killed rather than wounded in
the First World War, etc. etc. etc. A world war that excluded Europe? An
interesting concept.
> The
> rise of
> the NSDAP was not inevitable and at least in voter turnout the NSDAP had
> started
> to decline.
>
> 28/05/1928 810,100
> 14/09/1928 6,408,600
> 31/07/1932 13,745,800
> 04/11/1932 11,737,000
Don't know about this. I do expect that voters were getting really tired of
elections!
>
> Souce: Hitler and Stalin Parallel Lives
>
> If Hindenburg hadn't called on Herr Hitler, but say Von Papen or Brunning,
> then
> things may have been different.
Hindenburg had no real choice.
>
> Lots of if buts and possibles. But history's like that. You can never
> presume that
> event X (The defeat of the Central Powers in 1918) will lead to Y (The start
> of the
> second world war).
No one is predicting the Second World War. My comments and Tracy's have been
about the fact that the one did lead to the other, and that that was not
surprising -- in hindsight, perhaps.
<snip>
Bob Ingraham
Tracy Barber
wrote:
> Another link to the Dresden fire bombing is in Kurt Vonnegut jr.
>recounts his own experience there in "Slaughterhouse Five".
Forgot about that one.
>Dave
>"Bob Ingraham" <b.ing...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:BBBEC941.7EC9%b.ing...@shaw.ca...
>> > From: Moh...@adirondack-pc.com (Tracy Barber)
>> > Organization: The Kidz
>> > Reply-To: SeeH...@ToSendReply.com
>> > Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
>> > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:00:09 GMT
>> > Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end
><Snip>
>> > Except Dresden, of course. Made mince meat out of a non-strategic
>> > city.
>> No, Dresden is not an exception. As I said, a firestorm cannot be planned.
>> You can drop all the incendiaries you have, and burn lots of stuff, but a
>> true firestorm, with a central vortex of flame sucking the oxygen out of
>> peoples' lungs and destroying everything, only happens under the "right"
>> atmospheric conditions.
><more snip>
Tracy Barber
Tracy Barber
wrote:
>
>
>> From: "Alan" <Jhe...@smalllake.com.xx>
>> Organization: BigPond Internet Services
>> Reply-To: "Alan" <Jhe...@bigpond.com>
>> Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
>> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:02:16 GMT
>> Subject: Re: Battle of Britain - Slightly OT - Some philately at the end>
>>
>> Can I suggest that linking WWI and WWII is possibly arguing with hindsight.
>
>Can't very well link them today with foresight! However, many people
>realized that the seeds for the next war had been sewn in the first. I
>recently read a wonderful comment about that, but darned if I can remember
>where.
>> There was no reason in the 1920's that a second european war would break
>> out.
>
>No reason? Every reason! Versailles, which was concluded prematurely, was a
>recipe for it! Borders redrawn without regard to culture, reparations that
>were simply impossible for Germany to pay, leaders in France, Britain and
>America who who both blind and stupid,
This is a truism. The blindness that this can't happen again was
beyond me. Sheesh... The signs were there. Plain and simple.
Before war broke out, Germany procured back a good portion of it's
previous land and part of the Austro-Hungarian empire it was in
cahoots with. Czechoslovakia, as we know it now, was part of that
empire.
(Stamp content: I have plenty of Austrian / Hungarian revenue stamps
with Prague cancellations.)
It was like handing many, many sheep over to the wolves. As if they
DESERVED to GET them. No damn way.
>> If Stressmann had survived, if Rathenau had survived, if France had had a
>> decent
>> political leadership, WWII at least in europe would not have occurred.
>
>Wonderful word, "If". *If* Hiter hadn't been killed rather than wounded in
>the First World War, etc. etc. etc. A world war that excluded Europe? An
>interesting concept.
There would have been another party of some kind. There were too many
political wannabes and jack-asses running around in Weimar. Some had
good intentions, others not so good. The intrigue in the 20s can't be
cut with 5 knives tied together. Inflation was rampant. People
wanted jobs / work / money / lives... Something was bound to pop,
like a hot valve cover on an overheated engine.
Said party may not have been NSDAP, but who really knows... One can
only speculate.
>> The
>> rise of
>> the NSDAP was not inevitable and at least in voter turnout the NSDAP had
>> started
>> to decline.
>>
>> 28/05/1928 810,100
>> 14/09/1928 6,408,600
>> 31/07/1932 13,745,800
>> 04/11/1932 11,737,000
>
>Don't know about this. I do expect that voters were getting really tired of
>elections!
That's a fact... But, you know, though, that they made their own bed.
This was their time to "sleep" in it. I think of the Belgians, who
were neutral in WWI and what they had to put up with, when the
rampaging "Huns" came through their small towns and villages. (No
details necessary, we all know what happened.)
So - why not let the Germans, after their little romp, get a taste of
their own medicine? Sad as that is to say, they were the starting
force of WWI. Austria was a co-conspirator with the excuse for her
sister country to back up.
(BTW - their occupations have created massive amounts of postal
history, stamps and occupation overprints - not to mention 50,000,000
mark stamps!)
>> Souce: Hitler and Stalin Parallel Lives
>>
>> If Hindenburg hadn't called on Herr Hitler, but say Von Papen or Brunning,
>> then
>> things may have been different.
>
>Hindenburg had no real choice.
This is THE saddest part of it all. I don't know, but in the light of
the current NSDAP movement, Hindenburg may have thought they would
eventually win anyway - so why not give the people what they
inevitably would get - maybe sooner than expected.
This was the BIG LIE from Hitler. Yes, yes, work expanded, people
were fed, charity stamps were printed to build roads, moneuments, etc.
(and to feed the war machine).
>> Lots of if buts and possibles. But history's like that. You can never
>> presume that
>> event X (The defeat of the Central Powers in 1918) will lead to Y (The start
>> of the
>> second world war).
>
>No one is predicting the Second World War. My comments and Tracy's have been
>about the fact that the one did lead to the other, and that that was not
>surprising -- in hindsight, perhaps.
Yup. The years between, which weren't many, were not even enough time
for the nations to truly heal.
It's kind of like that Christmas pause I mentioned in a previous post,
where they shared goodies for a while and then went back to fighting
again.
Hindsight - yes. Always 20-20. :^)
Tracy Barber