Gold Coin Sellers Angered by New Tax Law
Arizona Coin Collector
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611
Amendment Slipped Into Health Care Legislation
Would Track, Tax Coin and Bullion Transactions
Isti Mirant Stella
This was news in Europe several weeks ago. ABC is just now getting around
to reporting it in the U.S.?
Jerry Dennis
wrote:
> Gold Coin Sellers Angered by New Tax Law
>
>
> Amendment Slipped Into Health Care Legislation
> Would Track, Tax Coin and Bullion Transactions
How does taxing coin sales fit in with Health Care? Easy. Hey,
Congress. Messing with my coins will be hazardous to YOUR health.
Jerry
Frank Provasek
No story here, except as promoted on right wing media. No new taxes
on coins. 1099 forms are filled out as a catchall for income
not reported elsewhere..coins bought for investment are reported when
you sell on Schedule D as usual. Coins bought and sold in
course of a business are reported on Schedule C as usual. And the law
that requires Paypal and other credit card processors to report
your gross receipts to the government was signed by President Bush in
2008. (some right wing websites are spinning the Paypal
reporting as "introduced by Nancy Pelosi." The speaker of the House
"introduces" ALL bills...that's why they are called the "speaker."
Isti Mirant Stella
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:a4c1e669-682a-4803...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Frank, every time I visit the states, I am appalled at the material I am
exposed to, virtually everywhere I go. Since I was here previously, it has
gotten much, much worse.
Frank Provasek
> "introduces" ALL bills...that's why they are called the "speaker."
>
> Frank, every time I visit the states, I am appalled at the material I am
> exposed to, virtually everywhere I go. Since I was here previously, it has
> gotten much, much worse.
These rules have previously applied since 1991 (the first Bush) ONLY
to individuals
and small proprietorships. Now Obama is requiring corporations to
follow the
same rules that YOU are supposed to have been doing for 20 years.
Suddenly
Fox News and all these "foundations of concerned taxpayers" run by
right wing
lobbying groups have sprung up to get people OUTRAGED to defeat the
Democrats.
The reason big corporate media are pushing this issue is because it
affects
THEM...they are not spending millions of dollars in airtime trying to
defeat this to help
YOU...
----
SEE MY NEW FIXED PRICE LISTINGS www.frankcoins.com
Texas Auction License 11259, Board member of Texas
Coin Dealers Association, Member TNA, ANA, PCGS,
NGC, Industry Council for Tangible Assets - Full Time Since 1991
Jud
>
> These rules have previously applied since 1991 (the first Bush) ONLY
> to individuals
> and small proprietorships. Now Obama is requiring corporations to
> follow the
> same rules that YOU are supposed to have been doing for 20 years.
> Suddenly
> Fox News and all these "foundations of concerned taxpayers" run by
> right wing
> lobbying groups have sprung up to get people OUTRAGED to defeat the
> Democrats.
> The reason big corporate media are pushing this issue is because it
> affects
> THEM...they are not spending millions of dollars in airtime trying to
> defeat this to help
> YOU...
This political rant reply to an old post has been brought to you by
the Democratic National Committee, ACORN, SEIU, NEA, PBS, the New
Progressive Movement, Hollywood, the news media, and the American
Socialist Party. Sometimes Frank, you just don't know when to shut up.
Blaming Bush for everything seems to be a good way to disguise the
fact that this administration has only made a bad situation far worse.
Jud -I don't know when to shut up either-
Donning asbestos suit for anticipated flame.
Mr. Jaggers
[adjusting blowtorch for max output]
Let's stop blaming George W. Bush for all the things Obama is doing, and
let's stop blaming Obama for all the things that George W. Bush did. Wait,
wrong forum, that'd be Facebook.
I'm perfectly content to blame GWB for what GWB did and O for what O is
doing. There's just something about that that seems inherently fair and
balanced to me.
James the Conservative Librul
Frank Provasek
>
> - Show quoted text -
Where did I blame Bush? I said that these reporting requirements
first came into
being under George W Bush's FATHER some 20 years ago, and only applied
to
individuals. Nary a protest until it was extended to include
corporations, and now the
big corporate owned media (mainly Fox and ABC radio) are spreading
lies about
it being a "new tax," a "tax on gold coins" or that individuals will
have to keep track of
every purchase from Walmart, Pizza Hut, gas stations, and send those
companies
a 1099 form at the end of the year if they buy a total of more than
$600 in goods.
sgt23
There is still a chance this bill could be eliminated, and if not
someone will find a way around it.
Jerry Dennis
No flame, here. In fact, I happen to agree with you. I just would
include far right-wing groups as well as the aforementioned far left-
wing groups. They're all to blame. Libertarians seem to have the
right idea... keep government out of ALL of our personal lives.
Now for the political rant --- VOTE 'EM ALL OUT!!!
Jerry
Deep breath, again. Now I feel better.
Jud
> No flame, here. In fact, I happen to agree with you. I just would
> include far right-wing groups as well as the aforementioned far left-
> wing groups. They're all to blame. Libertarians seem to have the
> right idea... keep government out of ALL of our personal lives.
>
> Now for the political rant --- VOTE 'EM ALL OUT!!!
>
> Jerry
> Deep breath, again. Now I feel better.
Jerry, I have to agree with you agreeing with me!
"The government that governs the best is the one that governs the
least" <Thomas Jefferson>
The one mistake our founding fathers made (that I can't blame them
for) was in not anticipating "career politicians." It was supposed to
be an honor and duty to serve the public, not to play party politics,
spend more than what they take in, and involve themselves in the
private lives of the citizenry. Although I am generally against term
limits (thinking that every election day is term limiting!), I think
that its about time for some responsible representation.
Yes! VOTE 'EM ALL OUT!!! (Except the ones that I like!) 8-)
Jud -Stepping off the soapbox-
Alabama Pete
cant even use your own rainwater, you must buy it from the goverment.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl2/collecting-rainwater-illegal.html
Mr. Jaggers
Have you ever read the NEA manifesto? It is formulated and updated each
year about this time. It outlines what an enlightened, educated society is
obligated to provide for the students who will have to live in this mess of
a world we bequeath to them. It speaks of educational rights for all, not
just some. It insists that curriculum standards be thorough and
evidence-based. It provides for the evaluation of progress made toward
those standards. If not for them, education would be entirely in the hands
of local non-specialists, each with one axe or other to grind. Call them
far left-wing, you're calling me far left-wing. I'm a life member.
If you think the NEA is a "far left-wing group", you just have never seen a
far left-wing group. They're out there, to be sure, but they're not in our
nation's classrooms, contrary to what the right-wing noise machine would
have you believe. And PBS? The left wing hardly knows them, and certainly
doesn't care to claim them. Where are you getting your information? Name
one PBS program that is far left-wing. Then let's talk.
OK, I'll agree with getting the government out of our personal lives. But
that means completely, and in all areas, no cafeteria. I happen to be a fan
of Ron Paul and respect him mightily, but I doubt that even you would be
very happy if his "Revolution" actually took place. All it takes is an
in-depth study of the French Revolution to learn how revolutions never
progress in the way their promoters envision. But it could certainly start
with dealing with the humongous debt that results from all our military
adventuring in all corners of the globe. It's really too bad that a certain
macho mayor felt it proper to shout him down at a Republican debate early in
2008 when he brought that up, remember that? Yet all the right-wingers fell
into line behind Mr. G. in a round of applause. Geez, and to think I used
to count myself among their number. Is he the only enlightened conservative
left?
Finally, where ya gonna find 435 new representatives and 100 new senators
that fit even my threadbare notions of morality? Old politicians = old
liars, new politicians = new liars. And we haven't even added in the 50
state houses and 50 governorships that would have to be re-populated. With
the population in 2010 being 75X what we had according to the 1790 census,
there should be 75 Georges Washington, 75 Thomases Jefferson, 75 Benjamins
Franklin, etc., but where the hell are they? I sure don't see them. The
end.
James the Equal Opportunity Ranter
mazorj
"Alabama Pete" <psm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:i3n1tm$aov$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> Our country is beinging so changed since the Obama regime began. Now you
> cant even use your own rainwater, you must buy it from the goverment.
>
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl2/collecting-rainwater-illegal.html
Those are state laws that have been on the books for years and have nothing
to do with Obama, you moron.
The dry western states have been struggling for decades to manage and
apportion water resources. Only a jackass like our long-time
poster-in-hiding would tie this to Obama.
Bremick
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c5f7f9d0-d5ec-418b...@v15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
**********
The only ones *I* can try to vote out are those locals who claim to be
looking out for me. I have no voice in the future of the other 530 or so
who couldn't care less about my interests or those of my state. Term
limits could make that more equitable.
Frank Provasek
> "The government that governs the best is the one that governs the
> least" <Thomas Jefferson>
> Jud -Stepping off the soapbox-
Sorry, Jud, that quote is from anarchist Henry David Thoreau, not
Thomas Jefferson.
Mr. Jaggers
There seems to be some disagreement.
http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/courses/ilaw/leastdig.htm (the internal
link didn't work for me)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)
http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/That_government_is_best_which_governs_least
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/4229.html
Will the real Quotable Quoter please stand up.
James the Citer of Citable Citations
Mr. Jaggers
There seems to be some disagreement.
Truthteller
control you and eventually exterminate you. Believe its all a conspiracy?
See commandment 1 of the Georgia Guidestones.
THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES
1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature
http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm
This is just the tip of the iceberg. See eugenics and Social Darwinism.
"Alabama Pete" <psm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:i3n1tm$aov$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
sgt23
Ok, Globe Trekker is left-wing.
Neil
goverment wanting to elimanate a way of people avoiding floride. God
provides the rain and only God can take it away. This is utter nonsence
even if these ludicrous laws have been in place for over a century.
The fact that a law has been around a long time doesn't validate it more
likely it means the law is outdated and unfit for purpose in a modern world.
When a law is no longer practical or useful in todays world it needs to be
abolished.
Dont criminalize the few who collect a couple of barrels of rain, it
naturally falls from the sky onto their property and is rightfully theirs,
no debate on this, thats how it is and if the law says it belongs to someone
else then it's the law that is wrong.
"Truthteller" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:i3odla$hsk$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Jud
> Frank Provasek wrote:
> > Sorry, Jud, that quote is from anarchist Henry David Thoreau, not
> > Thomas Jefferson.
>
> There seems to be some disagreement.
>
> http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/courses/ilaw/leastdig.htm(the internal
> link didn't work for me)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)
>
> http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/That_government_is_bes...
>
> http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/4229.html
>
> Will the real Quotable Quoter please stand up.
>
> James the Citer of Citable Citations
Whoever said it, I agree with them 100%. And thank you for the cites
Jim...Read 'em all!
Mr. Jaggers
Jud, saying that you "agree with them 100%" does not tell me much. It is an
example of the political debate being reduced to slogans and soundbites. So
many people mouth this slogan, but what they really mean is they want the
government to intervene less into their life, but they are perfectly OK with
more government intervention into mine. As soon as their own ox is gored,
they scream bloody murder. There can't be a cafeteria, my friend, 100% is
100%. Are you still with me?
James the Totalitarian
Jerry Dennis
Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Me! Me!
I must disagree with you one one point, James. While I want the
government to stay out my personal life, I also want them to stay out
of yours as well. Rush Limbaugh once said the only reason we need the
Federal government is to protect the country (the military) and to
deliver the mail (the Postal Service). I would also throw in "to coin
the money" (had to get that in somewhere).
I wish I could remember who said this, and the exact form of the quote
(sadly, I spent an hour on Google looking it up,; no dice): It is the
job of the people to take care of the government; not the job of the
government to take care of the people."
Jerry
Enjoying a healthy political debate without wearing flame-retardant
underwear.
Mr. Jaggers
Jerry, you'll want to make sure that your flame-retardant underwear doesn't
have any openings where fire could sneak through and burn your...whatever!
8>)
I'm afraid that the entire sweep of U.S. history countermands the wishes of
the estimable Mr. Limbaugh. For openers, the Federal gummint spent a
scheisseload of tax money buying up a big piece of real estate (before even
bothering to have it surveyed or appraised, doesn't that sound just like
'em, spend now and worry about it later?) and then sending advance men out
to see WTH it had spent its - oops, I mean our - oops again, I mean your and
my ancestors' money on during the second decade of its existence. That
money would have built a really nice club for Senators back in Philly, but
no-o-o-o. Not only did that not protect us (in fact, it made military
confrontation more common, what with the Indians' different point of view
about our now-permanent military occupation of "Louisiana"), it vastly
increased the burden of the post office, in that it now had to send little
white trucks across the Appalachians into godforsaken, hostile territory
capable of growing little more than tall grass, burning up a ton of gas to
deliver a coonskin cap to some yokel out in what would become Illinois, too
lazy to hunt down and dispatch the doomed critter himself, while risking
having arrows shot through the tires, and those dudes didn't come cheap,
even back then. Taking over a foreign country like that caused one heck of
a language problem, because the early settlers rebelled against the need to
press 1 for English, press 2 for Pottawattomie. That extravagance, of
course, then eventually led to the cockamamie idea of having roads laid out
all over the place, and not just made of mud, but made of concrete that cost
the equivalent of $145 a yard, and then there was all that union labor to
install them. I mean, cripes, we had all those slaves gainfully employed at
one time, even working overtime 14 hours a day, they could have gotten the
job done much more cheaply. What was Abe thinking when he freed them and
sent their jobs overseas?
Instead of shooting off his mouth without so much as a single brain cell
involved, as is his wont, Limbaugh should take a close look at the
Constitution to see what it actually says, not what his employers' agenda
calls for him to say. If what he says is true, that document would fit on
one side of a 3x5 index card. The fact that it does not is pretty good
proof that the Founders had just a tad more in mind than armies, junk mail,
and chain cents.
James, dammit
amdeline olson
>
> - Show quoted text -
Il faut qu'on dormir environ de trois heures de matin, mon vieux.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Bonjour Madame!
Trčs heureux de faire votre connaissance enfin. Mais je me demande comment
on peut supporter les excčs de votre mari Robert. Vous serez sainte un
jour, j'en suis certain.
Votre bon ami francophone,
Jacques
Jerry Dennis
> on peut supporter les excès de votre mari Robert. Vous serez sainte un
> jour, j'en suis certain.
>
> Votre bon ami francophone,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I hope you're not talking bad about me.
Jerry, the Paranoid
Mr. Jaggers
Oh pshaw, my friend, we'd never do that! I'll let oly do the honors of
interpretation here, I've completely forgotten virtually everything I ever
knew about French.
Hey, in other news, I've had more frequent contact with Amistad over the
past couple of weeks. He's still heavy into blasters. I sure wish I could
go down there and learn how to properly handle one.
James the Crooked Shooter
Jerry Dennis
No need for translation. Unlike some of our more paranoid friends, I
am not offended nor worried.
It's been years since I held and used a firearm. Having been away
from the Navy for 20 years now, I haven't had a reason to use one. Of
course (POLITICAL RANT), with the current political climate, it may be
prudent to keep one nearby.
Jerry
Maybe I'm paranoid after all.
Mr. Jaggers
Just a few minutes ago I read aloud to my bride a short paragraph from a
book I'm reading on public affairs. She suggested I post it on Facebook. I
said, "I've already been called a communist in two different threads for
nothing more than suggesting that people try to see both sides of an issue.
What are you trying to do, get me dead?"
She immediately went to the safe where we keep the life insurance policy she
took out on me many years ago and started reading the dec sheet.
James the Fugitive
Steve
good nazis like Frank Provasek continue to deny the truth, that his
messiah would ever do such a thing.
http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=15574
The following are messages, developed by the Industry Council for
Tangible Assets (www.ictaonline.org) that can be sent to your
representative (HR 5141) or senator (S 3578).
Version for Collectors/Investors
Subject: SUPPORT (either HR 5141 or S 3578): Small Business
Paperwork Mandate Elimination Act
Please repeal the new IRS Form 1099 requirement found in Section 9006
of Public Law 111-148, the Health Care Reform Act, that requires all
small businesses to issue a tax information reporting form to
virtually all of their customers and vendors, including corporations.
This will be devastating to all small businesses.
This new law creates a monumental increase in paperwork for small
businesses already overburdened by government regulation and reporting
requirements.
In addition, I will be required to give my confidential tax ID
information to many businesses that may not be capable of keeping this
information secure. I am concerned about identity theft as I am
required to provide my Social Security number and other identifying
information when conducting transactions. When showing my driver’s
license as proof of identity, the license includes my name, address
and date of birth!
I urge you to co-sponsor HR 5141 (or S 3578) to prevent this business
and personal security nightmare.
Version for Dealers
Subject: SUPPORT (either HR 5141 or S 3578): Small Business Paperwork
Mandate Elimination Act
Please repeal the new IRS Form 1099 requirement found in Section 9006
of Public Law 111-148, the Health Care Reform Act, that requires all
small businesses like mine to issue a tax information reporting form
to virtually all of our customers and vendors, including corporations.
This will be devastating to my small business.
I buy and sell rare coins, currency, precious metals, and collectibles
that I purchase for my inventory from hundreds of other dealers, as
well as from my retail clients. (Other than a few items that can be
obtained from the U.S. Mint, these are the only sources of my
merchandise.) This new 1099 provision will require me to file
hundreds, if not thousands, of forms. Further, it is not simply a
matter of completing the form, but also the work and time involved in
obtaining the proper tax identification number and dealing with backup
withholding requirements.
In addition, I will be required to obtain confidential tax ID
information from my colleagues and customers and also be responsible
for safekeeping that confidential data.
I urge you to co-sponsor HR 5141 (or S 3578) to prevent this business
and personal security nightmare.
AlabamaPete
is guerrilla warfare. Send the IRS tens or hundreds of millions of 1099's
for every single transaction for any amount of money. Print the company name
on the 1099, give it to the seller and let them fill out the rest. Send all
the crapola to the IRS and let them figure it all out. B&M dealers will be
most affected by this. At smaller coin shows, cash is king and I can't think
of a single dealer I know that's going to bother with this BS if the seller
pays him in cash. No one is looking over your shoulder so the heck with the
Feds. If this takes effect, it won't be long before the IRS will be begging
the Congress to repeal this once semi-trailer loads of 1099's start to
arrive at service centers.
Frank Provasek
> The ANA is asking people to write and oppose the gold coin tax. But
> good nazis like Frank Provasek continue to deny the truth, that his
> messiah would ever do such a thing.
>
This is from the new RIA thomson/reuters IRS-approved continuing
professional education material
on the changes caused by healthcare reform:
-----
In general, all persons engaged in a trade or business must file with
the IRS an information
return for payments made to another person in the course of the
payor’s trade or business that
constitute fixed or determinable income aggregating $600 or more in
any tax year. Payments
are those for: salaries, wages, commissions, fees, and other forms of
compensation for
services rendered amounting to $600 or more in a tax year; and
interest, rents, royalties,
annuities, pensions, and other gains, profits, and income amounting to
$600 or more in a tax
year. The payor also must provide the payment recipient with an annual
statement showing
the aggregate payments made and contact information for the payor.
New Law: For payments made after December 31, 2011, notwithstanding
any IRS regulation
issued before March 23, 2010, for information reporting purposes,
“person” includes any
corporation that is not exempt from tax under Code Sec. 501(a). (Code
Sec. 6041(h), as
amended by Health Care Act Sec. 9006(a)) Thus, a business must file an
information return
for all payments aggregating $600 or more in a calendar year to a
single payee (other than a
payee that is a tax-exempt corporation.)
-----
See, the "NEW LAW" changes "persons" to include "corporations"
Persons have already been required to file these forms since 1991.
This hoax stems from a Cato Institute press release by Chris Edwards
who interprets such phrases as "all payments" to mean "everything."
But it's clear from the context that these "payments" are those only
in the
scope of the regulation: salaries, wages, commissions, fees,
interest, rents, royalties,
annuities, pensions, and other gains, profits, and income.
Steve
Yes, that section is a statement of the CURRENT 1099 law.
The changes contained in the Obama healthcare takeover are ammended
that to reflect ...form your very own post....Beginning 2012, it is
for ALL payments!
Steve
> On Aug 23, 1:21 pm, Steve <coinguy1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The ANA is asking people to write and oppose the gold coin tax. But
> > good nazis like Frank Provasek continue to deny the truth, that his
> > messiah would ever do such a thing.
>
full of shit. You libs just cover your ears and shut your eyes when
reality conflicts with what the messiah says.
Gary
Zapp Brannigan
"Gary" <garydor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:981ae841-f1d3-4178...@u3g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> Nothing in Health Care Reform effects coin trading.
Unless you sell your coin(s) for more than $600
Gary
> "Gary" <garydorman8...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> news:981ae841-f1d3-4178...@u3g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Nothing in Health Care Reform effects coin trading.
>
> Unless you sell your coin(s) for more than $600
No, The changes only apply to health care payments, attorney fees,
dividends, interest, and such. Not merchandise in retail commerce.
Zapp Brannigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are incorrect.
Michael G. Koerner
If you are a commercial coin dealer and you buy just one common-date
Double-Eagle or a more modern bullion coin (such as a Krugerrand, Maple Leaf,
Panda, etc) from a general public customer - file a 1099. Yes, including
getting the seller's SSN and other identifying information. Besides the
paperwork hassles, with the way things are nowadays regarding personal
security, how many sellers are going to be willing to provide that info?
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
Bremick
"Michael G. Koerner" <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote in message
news:1cidnfi00uNb_i_R...@ntd.net...
> On 2010.10.10 15:33:41, Zapp Brannigan wrote:
>> "Gary"<garydor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:dccbe5da-b2a4-4bbd...@y31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Oct 9, 9:23 pm, "Zapp Brannigan"<j...@one.more> wrote:
>>> "Gary"<garydorman8...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:981ae841-f1d3-4178...@u3g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> Nothing in Health Care Reform effects coin trading.
>>>
>>> Unless you sell your coin(s) for more than $600
>>
>> No, The changes only apply to health care payments, attorney fees,
>> dividends, interest, and such. Not merchandise in retail commerce.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> You are incorrect.
>
> If you are a commercial coin dealer and you buy just one common-date
> Double-Eagle or a more modern bullion coin (such as a Krugerrand, Maple
> Leaf, Panda, etc) from a general public customer - file a 1099. Yes,
> including getting the seller's SSN and other identifying information.
> Besides the paperwork hassles, with the way things are nowadays regarding
> personal security, how many sellers are going to be willing to provide
> that info?
I wonder if that also will include eBay coin dealer purchases (and sales?)
over $600. Somehow I can't imagine anyone being comfortable sending their
SSN to an eBay seller or high bidder.
Frank Provasek
>
> If you are a commercial coin dealer and you buy just one common-date
> Double-Eagle or a more modern bullion coin (such as a Krugerrand, Maple Leaf,
> Panda, etc) from a general public customer - file a 1099. Yes, including
> getting the seller's SSN and other identifying information. Besides the
> paperwork hassles, with the way things are nowadays regarding personal
> security, how many sellers are going to be willing to provide that info?
Here are the only items listed by the IRS in Rev. Proc. 92-103 as
requiring submission for Form 1099-B, and the minimum threshold
quantities that must be sold in a single or related transactions
before the form must be filed:
Gold Bars 0.995 Any size bars totaling 1 kilogram (32.15 troy oz.) or
more
Silver Bars 0.999 Any size bars totaling 1,000 troy oz. or more
Platinum Bars 0.9995 Any size bars totaling 25 troy oz. or more
Palladium Bars 0.9995 Any size bars totaling 100 troy oz. or more
1 oz. Gold Maple Leaf as minted 25 1-oz. coins
1 oz. Gold Krugerrand as minted 25 1-oz. coins
1 oz. Gold Mexican Onza as minted 25 1-oz. coins
US 90% Silver Coins as minted Any combination of dimes, quarters, or
half dollars totaling $1,000 face value or more
If an item is not on this list, sales of it does not need a Form 1099-
B to be filed, no matter how large the quantity!
Michael G. Koerner
Is that the current rule or the Obamacare™ revised rule?
Frank Provasek
>
> Is that the current rule or the Obamacare™ revised rule?
The American Numismatic Association recently issued a bulletin warning
about the implications of a provision of the 2010 Health Care Act
which would require a 1099 form to be issued to anyone who is paid a
total of $600 or more a year, with the implications of requiring
billions of forms to be submitted to the IRS. Media reports and
chain emails have hyped this in many cases as a "gold coin tax," and
conservative radio and blogs have used this to attack President Obama
and the Health Care Act.
Obviously, the idea of collectors having to send 1099 forms to dealers
to whom they sell coins, and dealers having to send 1099 forms to
every collector from whom they buy more than $600 total in a year is
crazy, insane, and unworkable.
And it's also untrue.
Indeed, the Health Care Act DOES have a provision to raise revenues by
trying to collect existing taxes that are not being paid. But the
main change is that corporations will no longer be exempt from the
same reporting requirements that individuals have had to follow for
some 20 years.
Here is the form developed with the IRS by RIA-Thomson-Reuters ( The
people who certify the continuing professional education courses for
CPA's...They happen to be located here in Fort Worth, so I paid them a
visit. I showed them copies of the ANA and ICTA letters..."This is
all wrong...this is just not true at all!" was their response. )
Here is the summary page of the non health-care related changes.
There is absolutely nothing that applies to retail transactions of
coins or anything else, or of buying coins or anything else from the
public or suppliers for resale.
http://frankcoins.com/1099a.jpg
Under NEW LAW some people have interpreted ALL PAYMENTS OVER $600 to
mean EVERYTHING, but of course, the scope is linited to ALL PAYMENTS
of items 1 through 6.
----
Frank Provasek Rare Coins www.frankcoins.com
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/frankcoins Texas Auction License
11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC, ICTA - Full Time Since 1991
Michael G. Koerner
Thanks for the clarification (I think - as I cannot make heads or tails out of
the income tax in general).
I just cannot help but think that we will ultimately see the entire income tax
collapse under its own crushing weight of complexity, including all of its
related paperwork and other compliance costs.
<sigh....>
mazorj
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:aa3b7ef2-2b30-493a...@x5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 10, 8:09 pm, "Michael G. Koerner" <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote:
>
> If you are a commercial coin dealer and you buy just one common-date
> Double-Eagle or a more modern bullion coin (such as a Krugerrand, Maple
> Leaf,
> Panda, etc) from a general public customer - file a 1099. Yes, including
> getting the seller's SSN and other identifying information. Besides the
> paperwork hassles, with the way things are nowadays regarding personal
> security, how many sellers are going to be willing to provide that info?
===========================================
Here are the only items listed by the IRS in Rev. Proc. 92-103 as
requiring submission for Form 1099-B, and the minimum threshold
quantities that must be sold in a single or related transactions
before the form must be filed:
Gold Bars 0.995 Any size bars totaling 1 kilogram (32.15 troy oz.) or more
Silver Bars 0.999 Any size bars totaling 1,000 troy oz. or more
Platinum Bars 0.9995 Any size bars totaling 25 troy oz. or more
Palladium Bars 0.9995 Any size bars totaling 100 troy oz. or more
1 oz. Gold Maple Leaf as minted 25 1-oz. coins
1 oz. Gold Krugerrand as minted 25 1-oz. coins
1 oz. Gold Mexican Onza as minted 25 1-oz. coins
US 90% Silver Coins as minted Any combination of dimes, quarters, or
half dollars totaling $1,000 face value or more
If an item is not on this list, sales of it does not need a Form 1099-
B to be filed, no matter how large the quantity!
===========================================
I hope that's right but according to the respected PolitiFact site, the 1099
requirement seems to be intended to cast a wide net. I don't know how the
above IRS requirement will fit in with or survive the new law but at the
very least it's clear that if you operate any business enterprise, you
better lay in a supply of 1099 forms to submit for any purchasing over $600
worth of goods from an unincorporated vendor. And if a non-corporate vendor
refuses to give you an IRS ID number, you have to withhold 28% and send that
to the IRS along with more paperwork to the feds and probably to the vendor.
(By analogy, banks already have to do that for interest they pay to you.)
Dereck Christian
1099s are correct. It is basically letting they buyer make their own
receipt. Since what I buy from you is an expense for me I have ever reason
in the world to bump up what I report on my 10-99 so you will need to
confirm what I report is correct or you end up paying taxes on money you did
not really get.
So imagine if I am the ACE hardware store down the street and I go in and
get duplicate keys made, something I do all the time. Well now I have to
have an acount with ACE becuase if I spend over $600 a year with ACE I am
going to need to 1099 them. Which means I not only do I need to track how
much I spend with them but they also need double check it. After all I may
be the lazy book keeper and just put it all in as ACE Hardware... but there
are two ACE Hardware stores (franchise) owned by 2 different guys. What
happens when I get lazy and issue just one 10-99 that combines it?
"Michael G. Koerner" <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote in message
news:Wv6dnQ5oks27zS7R...@ntd.net...
mazorj
purchasing goods as a business, charity, or government entity. As far as I
can tell, personal purchases by individuals are not covered by the
requirement. Which means you already are keeping records of those purchases
for your business expense deductions. At year end, review them and cut a
1099 for any vendor who got more than $600 for goods and/or services to your
business. Granted, issuing the paperwork for goods purchased is an added
burden but it's not like you have to ramp this up from scratch.
I don't know about this part of the tax law, but I would assume that filing
a false 1099 will get you in as much trouble with criminal charges as
deliberately filing false tax returns. Just be sure to review them ASAP
because they don't have to be mailed to you until Jan. 31. Besides, I don't
know that a 1099 would hold up as a "receipt" if the purchase price is
questioned by authorities, especially if you the seller can present evidence
to the contrary.
Having said all that, Congress really should revisit this requirement. My
guess is that whatever marginal increase in taxes it yields will be far
outweighed by the collective paperwork burden when you apply it to millions
of small businesses.
"Dereck Christian" <nou...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:iaepm2$gog$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Frank Provasek
interest based on right wing blog and talk radio rumors.
One guy with a nice stash of American Eagles wanted them swapped for
pre-1933 US coins because he was convinced they
would be "not confiscatable" He lost about 30% of his net gold making
this swap.
Now a couple of years later, he wants to swap $20 Libs for $2.50 Libs,
to get under the bogus "$600 limit 1099 reporting
requirements" , effectively paying $2,800 an oz for gold, cutting his
gold stash by about half. I offered to give him the number
of the IRS public relations contact who would tell him that coins are
not "legal fees, rents, dividends, or salaries", and there are
no changes in existing reporting requirements upcoming. ARE YOU
CRAZY!! he says...THEN THE GOVERNMENT WILL
KNOW I OWN GOLD!!!
Both the ANA and ICTA continue to promote this rumor about 1099
reports even after I contacted them... if the Drudge Report and the
Cato
Institute said it, that trumps what the IRS says!