OT: Taxpayer toilets on eternal flush
Longnine009
is circling the drain again. No problem. Taxpayers to
the rescue.
Mr. Jaggers
You talk like someone who knows the answer. Care to share it?
James
Longnine009
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:gogs3...@enews2.newsguy.com...
I don't recall AIG sending me a share of their profits in the good old
days. Why then should I have to send them my taxes to bail them out?
The answer? Yes I have the answer--die and make room for someone
who can get it right.
Jud
Longnine009 wrote:
> I don't recall AIG sending me a share of their profits in the good old
> days. Why then should I have to send them my taxes to bail them out?
> The answer? Yes I have the answer--die and make room for someone
> who can get it right.
IIRC, AIG is the company that insures the Congressional pensions. Any
other questions?
Mr. Jaggers
If I read you correctly, then, you advocate market darwinism. That's OK, I
was just curious.
AIG didn't send you a share of their profits, most likely because you hadn't
invested any money with them. And now that AIG is in the crapper, you feel
that it is not your responsibility to help rescue them.
Fair enough. It's the old ant and grasshopper tale writ large. But the
tale is incomplete. We are never told how the stench and infection from the
grasshopper's rotting carcass affected the well-being of the ant.
I hope you have some way to protect yourself from the inevitable, massive
collateral damage associated with AIG's recommended demise. They represent
one humongous grasshopper.
James
Longnine009
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:08e330ee-e8bd-4f4e...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
And the Goldman Sach-bags have a stake in them. So what? If
they can't stand on their own there's the 100th floor window. Pigeons
down in street have to eat too. Then let their crap be marked to market
and bought up by people who can do something with it. They used to call
it Capitalism. Any other questions?
Longnine009
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
The ants should mark the grasshopper to market and eat what hasn't
rotted away before it's too late.
>
> I hope you have some way to protect yourself from the inevitable, massive
> collateral damage associated with AIG's recommended demise. They
represent
> one humongous grasshopper.
>
> James
IMO, it's going to happen either way. It can be fast and short or long and
drawn out. I doubt a nation of whinny feral cats has the regimentation
mentality to go through what Japans been going through for the last
20 years.
>
>
mazorj
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:08e330ee-e8bd-4f4e...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
That's an urban myth that's been going around. Congressional
pensions, as with all federal pensions, are backed by Uncle Sam, not
AIG.
Every business failure has collateral damage. When that gets to a
certain level, it's a valid question to ask which is the lesser of two
evils - intervene, or let it fail with all the chips falling where
they may.
See snopes for responses to both issues:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/aig.asp
Longnine009
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> Longnine009 wrote:
>
> I hope you have some way to protect yourself from the inevitable, massive
> collateral damage associated with AIG's recommended demise. They
represent
> one humongous grasshopper.
>
> James
Slightly OT on the OT.
I just found an article from the late Carl Allenbaugh a.k.a Expertease
COINS magazine --Jan. 1976 The story is about a bird who keeps pecking
away at "augerworms" who are attacking a big rock. Each "protective" peck
knocks out a few grains of the rock until it finally cracks apart. The
bird
destroyed what he was suppose to be protecting. The article was in protest
against being protected by the Hobby Protection Act.
Would china be able to unload their junk today if collectors had, all along,
been forced to protect themselves and distinguish for themselves replicas
and forgeries from the the real thing?
>
>
Mr. Jaggers
Yes.
James
Longnine009
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
You believe it would be just as bad as it is now or just partially so?
>
>
mazorj
"Longnine009" <BiteMeS...@UpukingDog.dash> wrote in message
news:HBVql.10508$v8....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
How would you "force" collectors to take such action?
Longnine009
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:2WVql.742$gm6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
all along would have been forced to protect themselves. IMO
china never would have been able to make the intrusions they
made in coins. At least not on the same scale. Now it's very
possible collectors will have to do that anyway.
>
>
mazorj
"Longnine009" <BiteMeS...@UpukingDog.dash> wrote in message
Um, if I follow the tortured logic here, you say that certain
unspecified "protections" (which were what?) were bad because they
lulled collectors away from the normal "caveat emptor" precautions?
Is that what you meant?
If I do have it right... First, carrying that argument to its logical
conclusion, we should abolish every consumer protection law and every
regulatory agency because virtually all Americans have to some extent
been lulled into a more safe sense of security when according to you,
they should have been on a sharper lookout for things like poisoned
Tylenol pills, tainted peanut butter, market manipulations by insider
traders and Chinese forgeries.
Second, it is an immutable law of the universe that even if you can
make something truly idiot-proof, Mother Nature immediately breeds a
new species of idiots. Regardless of the level of protections that
are imposed or not imposed, some people never got the memo, some
succumb to greed thinking that they're too smart to be a victim and
they can beat the system, and some are just terminally stupid. So
thinking that you can force consumers to exercise adequate precautions
and skepticism is a pipe dream. The center and right side of the bell
curve either learns the precautions or already knew them. The left
shoulder may be steep, it may be shallow, but it's always there.
That's one of the reasons why we have protection laws and regulatory
agencies.
PC
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>
>> Would china be able to unload their junk today if collectors had, all
>> along, been forced to protect themselves and distinguish for
>> themselves replicas and forgeries from the the real thing?
>
> Yes.
>
"Forced" ???
Would I be a millionaire if 1,000,000 people were forced to send me a
dollar?
Longnine009
If you find anything I say torture your free to stop reading. If your
waiting for the Usenet Czar to tell you to stop, I don't think they have
one yet.
>
> If I do have it right... First, carrying that argument to its logical
> conclusion, we should abolish every consumer protection law and every
> regulatory agency because virtually all Americans have to some extent
> been lulled into a more safe sense of security when according to you,
> they should have been on a sharper lookout for things like poisoned
> Tylenol pills, tainted peanut butter, market manipulations by insider
> traders and Chinese forgeries.
Yes.
And whoever regulates feudal armies. It's really annoying that I can't
ride a Charger up to a surf and say: "Hey man you better get them
'maters picked or it's no ration tonight for you.
>
> Second, it is an immutable law of the universe that even if you can
> make something truly idiot-proof, Mother Nature immediately breeds a
> new species of idiots. Regardless of the level of protections that
> are imposed or not imposed, some people never got the memo, some
> succumb to greed thinking that they're too smart to be a victim and
> they can beat the system, and some are just terminally stupid. So
> thinking that you can force consumers to exercise adequate precautions
> and skepticism is a pipe dream. The center and right side of the bell
> curve either learns the precautions or already knew them. The left
> shoulder may be steep, it may be shallow, but it's always there.
> That's one of the reasons why we have protection laws and regulatory
> agencies.
It also an immutable law of the universe that life survives at the margins.
It survived becasue it got stronger from not being coddled.
>
>
Jud
mazorj wrote:
> That's an urban myth that's been going around. Congressional
> pensions, as with all federal pensions, are backed by Uncle Sam, not
> AIG.
>
> Every business failure has collateral damage. When that gets to a
> certain level, it's a valid question to ask which is the lesser of two
> evils - intervene, or let it fail with all the chips falling where
> they may.
>
> See snopes for responses to both issues:
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/aig.asp
Thank you for setting the record (and me) straight. Guess I fell for
the urban myth, and not for the first time. I usually do check it out
on Snopes, but didn't this time. Mea Culpa!
Mr. Jaggers
Just as bad as it is now. The level of sophistication of the counterfeiters
has surpassed the ability of 99+ percent of the collectors and,
occasionally, even the slabbers.
James
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
I must agree that comparing the conditions when Carl A. wrote to
conditions today is an apples versus oranges thing. Counterfeits have
gotten way better in the last decade.
For relatively inexpensive silver coins (like many Chinese crowns)
they can make them look wonderful, but the weight is also the tell-
tale factor (s/b 27 or 28 grams; invariably 20 or 21 grams).
For the expensive numismatic things, the Chinese can afford to put in
the correct gold and silver weights.
I don't think that the existence of slabs has much dulled the ability
of collectors to detect bad coins. Most collectors could not do it
back in the '50s and '60s when the Lebanese were making decent bad
sovereigns and they can do it today either. Get a scale and get some
books and look at lots and lots of coins. Or, buy slabs.
oly
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
s/b "CAN'T do it today either."
mazorj
It happens to all of us at one time or another. I just happened to
have seen that one a month ago and, knowing something about pensions
(federal and private), checked it out then because it didn't pass the
sniff test.
Thanks for being a stand-up guy about it. That's distressingly rare
on the Internet.
Johnny Doe
As long as the IRS doesn't find out!
"Roßert G. Schaffrath"
I have always been a fiscal conservative, especially with my own
finances. This has rewarded me well. However, it has finally dawned on
me with regards to the Federal Government that the national debt is a
joke and is something that will never be paid off. The joke is on the
people and countries who buy the debt. Should we ever manage to at
least balance the federal budget again, we will probably be something
like $20 trillion in debt at that time (around 2020 or so?). Short of
confiscating everyone's savings and property, I have no clue how that
will be paid off and I don't think the government does either. I
suppose foreign countries could demand payment in gold but I am sure our
government will tell them where to go. At some point way down the road,
I would not be surprised to see the government declare bankruptcy and,
poof, the debt disappears. It will ruin the currency and the country
but will be the control-alt-delete we have needed for some time now.
For now, I will take a page from Dr. Strangelove and just stop worrying
about it and learn to love it.
Mr. Jaggers
> Mr. Jaggers wrote:
>> Longnine009 wrote:
>>> Looks like one of our "good investments for taxpayers"
>>> is circling the drain again. No problem. Taxpayers to
>>> the rescue.
>>>
>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE5211X520090302
>>
>> You talk like someone who knows the answer. Care to share it?
>>
>> James
>>
>
> I have always been a fiscal conservative, especially with my own
> finances. This has rewarded me well. However, it has finally dawned
> on me with regards to the Federal Government that the national debt
> is a joke and is something that will never be paid off.
The Andrew Jackson administration has been the only one in our history to
have ever done so.
The joke is
> on the people and countries who buy the debt. Should we ever manage
> to at least balance the federal budget again, we will probably be
> something like $20 trillion in debt at that time (around 2020 or
> so?). Short of confiscating everyone's savings and property, I have
> no clue how that will be paid off and I don't think the government
> does either. I suppose foreign countries could demand payment in
> gold but I am sure our government will tell them where to go.
Finland is the only country to have ever retired its entire debt to us
through actual payment.
At
> some point way down the road, I would not be surprised to see the
> government declare bankruptcy and, poof, the debt disappears.
Wholesale debt repudiation has been suggested as a solution by various
economists at various times.
It
> will ruin the currency and the country but will be the
> control-alt-delete we have needed for some time now.
Likely the entire world would be immediately thrust into chaos, with nuclear
exchange virtually inevitable. There's your "delete" on a grand scale.
>
> For now, I will take a page from Dr. Strangelove and just stop
> worrying about it and learn to love it.
I wouldn't recommend loving it, but to stop worrying sounds like a plan.
James
RWF
> Likely the entire world would be immediately thrust into chaos, with
> nuclear exchange virtually inevitable. There's your "delete" on a
> grand scale.
That would seem to me to be extremely unlikely.
Dozens of nations have repudiated their debts to the USA (does ANYBODY
pay us back?) and there hasn't been a nuclear holocaust yet.
Eventually the USA will have to either repudiate its massive debt or
hyperinflate the currency (essentially the same thing).
beekeep
wrote:
>Longnine009 wrote:
>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>> news:gogs3...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>> Longnine009 wrote:
>>>> Looks like one of our "good investments for taxpayers"
>>>> is circling the drain again. No problem. Taxpayers to
>>>> the rescue.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE5211X520090302
>>>
>>> You talk like someone who knows the answer. Care to share it?
>>>
>>> James
>>
>> I don't recall AIG sending me a share of their profits in the good old
>> days. Why then should I have to send them my taxes to bail them out?
>> The answer? Yes I have the answer--die and make room for someone
>> who can get it right.
>
>If I read you correctly, then, you advocate market darwinism. That's OK, I
>was just curious.
>
>AIG didn't send you a share of their profits, most likely because you hadn't
>invested any money with them. And now that AIG is in the crapper, you feel
>that it is not your responsibility to help rescue them.
>
>Fair enough. It's the old ant and grasshopper tale writ large. But the
>tale is incomplete. We are never told how the stench and infection from the
>grasshopper's rotting carcass affected the well-being of the ant.
Being that I deal with insects on a daily basis, Hymenoptera in particular, I
think the grasshopper would be the ants next meal!
beekeep
Mr. Jaggers
Debt repudiation is an active, not a passive, action taken by a government.
Can you cite a single instance of a country ever having formally announced
that it would make no more payments to us? Yes, dozens of nations have
fallen behind on their payments, often to a chronic degree, but that's not
the same as an in-our-face declaration of debt repudiation.
The phenomenon of inflation to any degree, including hyperinflation, is not
a government money policy, but rather, a market reaction to a government's
money policy. Governments will often attempt to camouflage hyperinflation
by lopping off zeroes, but that is not the definition of hyperinflation, it
is a reaction to hyperinflation, nor does it make it go away.
And yes, I believe that the United States' official serving of notice to the
world, or even to a single nation or group of nations, that it was declaring
all of its debt, or even a part of it, to be null and void, would provide
the pretext for some entity to figure that it could start lobbing nuclear
devices into someone else's Great Cities with impunity.
And no, I will not apologize for the syntax of anything I have written
above, nor will I attempt to diagram it.
James
Mr. Jaggers
Heh. Would that our economic mess be so easily cleaned up.
James
RWF
> And yes, I believe that the United States' official serving of notice
> to the world, or even to a single nation or group of nations, that it
> was declaring all of its debt, or even a part of it, to be null and
> void, would provide the pretext for some entity to figure that it
> could start lobbing nuclear devices into someone else's Great Cities
> with impunity.
That's completely illogical and makes absolutely no sense.
Mr. Jaggers
Have it your way, RWF. I'm done.
James
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I believe for every drop of rain that falls........a flower grows.
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:gon7f...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>> RWF wrote:
>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>> news:gomu1...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>>> And yes, I believe that the United States' official serving of
>>>> notice to the world, or even to a single nation or group of
>>>> nations, that it was declaring all of its debt, or even a part of
>>>> it, to be null and void, would provide the pretext for some entity
>>>> to figure that it could start lobbing nuclear devices into someone
>>>> else's Great Cities with impunity.
>>>
>>> That's completely illogical and makes absolutely no sense.
>>
>> Have it your way, RWF. I'm done.
>>
>> James
>
> I believe for every drop of rain that falls........a flower
> grows.
Well, as I live and breathe, it's Francesco Paolo LoVecchio!.
James
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Awww shucks.
Mr. Jaggers
What are the odds that anybody else here has the slightest idea what we're
talking about?
James
Peter
>
> - Show quoted text -
The older ways were better, but a fine singer even so.
Mr. Jaggers
That makes for one. 8>)
James
oly
wrote:
The joke is on you and every member of America's middle class. Your
currency is just another form of the debt (they greenies are Federal
Reserve "Notes" (as in Promissory Notes) and all your dollar
denominated assets will go poof too. Soon.
oly
oly
"Roßert G. Schaffrath"
Of that I have no doubt. But I realize now that the government is
throwing around the term Trillion like Billions were used only a few
years ago, and millions decades before that, that the situation has spun
entirely out of control. I cannot fathom at any level how one would
amass enough funds to pay off the debt (at least without causing the
same level of economic upheaval as bankruptcy would do).
I guess to add to the joke, it is that worthless currency we would be
using to pay the very taxes the government would be assessing to pay the
debt. Of course they could go the FDR route and confiscate all the gold
again at a fixed price determined by the government. And with the way
penalties for law violations have ratcheted up over the years, I could
see it easily being a felony to possess any amount of gold over a
government stipulated amount.
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I managed a correct guess before googling it to be sure, but
only because I grew up hearing "Mule Train" and "Cry of the
Wild Goose". I heard them (and played them) frequently
because they constituted almost almost half of my father's
side of the family record collection. The vinyls are long
gone but I still can keep up with the lyrics on the rare
occasions when I hear them.
My mother's side was heavy on the works of Pierino Ronald
Como.
mazorj
""Roßert G. Schaffrath"" <rscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:49afc65f$0$5925$607e...@cv.net...
...
> Of that I have no doubt. But I realize now that the
> government is throwing around the term Trillion like
> Billions were used only a few years ago, and millions
> decades before that, that the situation has spun entirely
> out of control.
"A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you're
talking real money."
(And this just in from the Department of Sucker Bet
Material: The quote widely attributed to Sen. Dirksen has
yet to authoritatively documented. Who knew?)
oly
> ""Roßert G. Schaffrath"" <rschaffr...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> messagenews:49afc65f$0$5925$607e...@cv.net...
>
> ...
>
> > Of that I have no doubt. But I realize now that the
> > government is throwing around the term Trillion like
> > Billions were used only a few years ago, and millions
> > decades before that, that the situation has spun entirely
> > out of control.
>
> "A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you're
>
When Senator Dirksen "said" the disputed quote, it was M's and B's
(millions and billions), not B's and T''s (billions and trillions).
Ev died in 1969.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Vinyl? VINYL??? Hey, I listened to Frankie Laine sing "I Believe" on a
78RPM.
James the Ancient
mazorj
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3374ae65-a270-4580...@r28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
At the time, we were transitioning from M to B as "real money". In
his supposed quip, Dirksen used the B word. I just took it to the
next level.
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Oops, wrong technology. We kids got a stern lecture after learning
how easy it was to shatter acetate platters.
We didn't even have a player capable of 33/45 rpm until I was 12 and
started bringing home "all that teenager music". I suspect that young
listeners today would be mystified by the double-entendre title of
Bull Moose Jackson's hit (reprised by Aerosmith) "Big Ten Inch
Record".
"A ten-inch record? What's it the record for, grandpa? I can't even
find it on the Guinness site."
Paul Anderson
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "A ten-inch record? What's it the record for, grandpa? I can't even
> find it on the Guinness site."
You do know that vinyl records came in 7" (big center hole) and 10" and
12" (small center hole), right?
Paul
--
Paul Anderson
OpenVMS Engineering
Hewlett-Packard Company
RWF
"Paul Anderson" <paul.a...@hp.com> wrote in message
news:paul.anderson-AA5...@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
> In article <ZKasl.1667$%u5....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> "mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> "A ten-inch record? What's it the record for, grandpa? I can't even
>> find it on the Guinness site."
>
> You do know that vinyl records came in 7" (big center hole) and 10"
> and
> 12" (small center hole), right?
"Bull Moose" Jackson had a hit with "Big 10 Inch"
mazorj
"Paul Anderson" <paul.a...@hp.com> wrote in message
news:paul.anderson-AA5...@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
> "mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> "A ten-inch record? What's it the record for, grandpa? I can't
>> even
>> find it on the Guinness site."
>
> You do know that vinyl records came in 7" (big center hole) and 10"
> and
> 12" (small center hole), right?
Yes, and other sizes as well. The introduction of all the different
record sizes, speeds, and materials overlaps to the point where there
is no clear term or dividing line that uniquely defines any
combination of sizes, speeds, and materials. I was just alluding to
what today's generation would make of the double entendre.
FTR, in my previous post I should have said shellac, not acetate,
which was an entirely different formulation.
Mr. Jaggers
Q: What do you call a stack of 100 Edison Diamond Disc records?
A: Skeet
James