MS-60 to MS-70... Question!
Naissur Bara
lower end, and the MS-70 on the ideal end. Some people might argue the
latter should only exist in theory. This brings me to my question.
What, in your opinion, is the range of coins that qualifies as
"uncirculated" vs. "brilliant uncirculated" vs. "gem uncirculated"
e.g. For instance, someone might say:
MS-60 to MS-62 is uncirculated
MS-63 to MS-65 is brilliant uncirculated
MS-66 to MS-69 is gem uncirculated
MS-70 is perfect uncirculated
Would the above be accurate? Do people have other opinions on this? Or,
perhaps, is this not a matter of opinion and there exists an actual
definition that puts each of these numerical grades into one of the buckets
identified above? Please enlighten me.
Many thanks.
oly
Grade inflation is the great fact of the last thirty years or more in
U.S. coin collecting.
If one were to fire up the time machine and go WAY WAY BACK to the
early 1980s....
Today's MS-63 is what used to be called uncirculated and Today's MS-65
is what used to be called nice uncirculated.
Today's MS-62 is what used to be called uncky, a slider, probably nice
looking (but not always).
Today's MS-61 is what used to be called about uncirculated (maybe nice
looking, maybe not).
Today's MS-60 is what used to be called about uncirculated, probably
ugly looking (but not always).
The grades above MS-65 would rarely, if ever, have been acknowledged -
but of course, a really really nice historic coin would certainly have
commanded premium prices.
The idea of having newly minted coins graded MS-70 "perfect" and
selling for insane premiums would have been laughed at (back in those
days, people DIDN'T BUY bottled water either; people were much smarter
back in those days).
But if one did have a useful time machine, the best thing to use it
for would to be to go back in time and ensure that...
oly
Jerry Dennis
The term "uncirculated" refers to a coin in the MS range (MS-60 thru
MS-70). The modifiers really mean nothing, although your example is
probably as good as anyone's.
If you've ever watched a Coins-For-Sale shopping show (e.g., the old
Coin Vault on HSN) or infomercial, you've heard all kinds of crap (and
it is crap) about "These coins are BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED!" If you do
your research, you'd probably find they're selling a marginal MS-63 at
an MS-65+ price. And they're not lying since, by your example,
they're selling a BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED coin.
In the old days here, we used to preach a lot of wisdom. This is one
thread where one piece of that wisdom is germane... Learn how to
grade.
Jerry
Longing for the old days.
Beanie
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a1017eab-ba11-474c...@y23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
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A lot depends on who is doing the grading.
PCGS and NGC now indulge in "market grading" and have inflated grades over the
years.
The old ANACS was a bit more conservative but has now joined in the market
grading parade.
As far as I can determine, ICG grading was, to say the least, always a tad
optimistic.
Now if you look to our neighbors to the north, the Canadian grader ICCS is
extremely conservative,
They have never graded a coin MS70 to my knowledge.
I've got MS60 coins from them that would probably be graded 63 or 64 my the
American graders, if not higher in some instances.
When you get an MS65 coin from ICCS, it will be a prime example of the coiner's
art/
The other Canada grader, CCCS, is also conservative but I have seen some
egregiously over-graded coins in CCCS holders.
The RCNA grading standards allow for MS/PF70 only as a theoretical paradigm and
the Canadian graders seem to follow RCNA grading standards.
Bones
advertisers guide that translated descriptive terms into the MS
scale.
I believe, although am not exactly sure, that their guidelines read
something like:
BU -- at least MS60
Gem BU -- at least MS63
Premium BU -- at least MS65
Although I do not agree with these adjective associations, I find that
they correspond well to my expectations when I buy coins. So, I never
expect a coin described as "Gem BU" to be better than MS63. Of course,
If I can see the the coins I don't argue grade with the seller I
discuss the price. I find that many sellers will knock of a few buck
from the price, which usually brings it into close accord with my
expectations.
Bremick
"Bones" <mah...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4d46ce98-eb8c-4d62...@35g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Nowadays, with the long-entrenched MS grading system, I tend to be skeptical
of any major dealers who still offer raw uncirculated coins with
descriptions such as "Superb Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Premium Quality BU"
or plain old "Brilliant Uncirculated". This tells me either they have no
confidence in their own grading capability or else the coins rate a lower MS
grade than the superlatives might suggest to a buyer and they're trying to
cover their ass by using words that may sound precise but are subject to
interpretation.
Beanie
"Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:idj0d9$suu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Nowadays, with the long-entrenched MS grading system, I tend to be skeptical
> of any major dealers who still offer raw uncirculated coins with descriptions
> such as "Superb Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Premium Quality BU" or plain old
> "Brilliant Uncirculated". This tells me either they have no confidence in
> their own grading capability or else the coins rate a lower MS grade than the
> superlatives might suggest to a buyer and they're trying to cover their ass by
> using words that may sound precise but are subject to interpretation.
I agree.
In this day of micro-grading coins, such descriptions are definitely old hat,
probably designed to midlead buyers into thinking the coins are better than
MS60.
My take:
Brilliant Uncirculated (BU) = MS60
Premium Quality BU = MS61
Superb BU = MS63
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe they just don't want to make the TPG services rich? A common
silver dollar can be desireable enough but not cross the $$$
threshhold where it justifies the TPG expenditure.
oly
Bremick
___________
I have no doubt you're right, but I still wonder why a big dealer would
avoid the MS grading system most in the hobby have come to accept and rely
upon for uncirculated coins. With big $$ differences often found as one
goes up the MS scale, how is one to value a sight-unseen "Premium Quality
BU" coin?
Frank Provasek
hype words about ten yers ago. The only official term for MS60
through MS70 is UNCIRCULATED.
oly
AW shit FRANK you're SELLING Dr. Zhivago???
http://shop.ebay.com/frankcoins/m.html
Not Dr. Zhivago!!! Selling "The Petrified Forest" or "Footballers'
Wives", maybe in a pinch... BUT not DR. ZHIVAGO!!!
Is it a "Select" Dr. Zhivago??? Or simply "Choice"???
If I bought it, I might have to get a DVD player.
oly
Naissur Bara
have been enthusiastically reading all the posts.
Though it is hard for me to know what "old school" is since I myself wasn't
even born back "then". But I tend to agree with those of the opinion that
many of the qualifiers frequently associated with "uncirculated" don't
necessarily make sense and perhaps are used to inflate prices. But then
again, we cannot dispute that there is a market for these ultra high grades
at least in some cases.
I personlly would like, in an ideal world, to see "uncirculated" and
"[insert special qualifier of your choice] uncirculated" to distinguish
between your average standard uncirculated, and the exceptionally appealing
one.
In any case, many thanks to all. This was very helpful to me.
PS:
>>> Is it a "Select" Dr. Zhivago??? Or simply "Choice"???
Thanks Oly. That gave me a good laugh.
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Bremick
"Naissur Bara" <naiss...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:4cfd869f$0$31277$607e...@cv.net...
>I wanted to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond to my query. I
>have been enthusiastically reading all the posts.
>
> Though it is hard for me to know what "old school" is since I myself
> wasn't even born back "then". But I tend to agree with those of the
> opinion that many of the qualifiers frequently associated with
> "uncirculated" don't necessarily make sense and perhaps are used to
> inflate prices. But then again, we cannot dispute that there is a market
> for these ultra high grades at least in some cases.
There is indeed a market for many high MS grade coins, as long as they are
slabbed in one of the major TPG firm's holders. On the other hand, there's
only a limited market for raw high MS graded coins. Probably depends on the
reputation of the dealer/seller.
>
> I personlly would like, in an ideal world, to see "uncirculated" and
> "[insert special qualifier of your choice] uncirculated" to distinguish
> between your average standard uncirculated, and the exceptionally
> appealing one.
That's pretty much what the MS grades are supposed to tell you. Plus
there's those extra "quality" stickers, too.
>
> In any case, many thanks to all. This was very helpful to me.
It all may come down to a coin's eye appeal and whether it's affordable.
Frank Provasek
I don't understand. I am selling some DVDs I bid on from a Circuit
City closing, but they are
are factory sealed new merchandise.
Beanie
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:58ad9278-8b3e-428f...@32g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> I don't understand. I am selling some DVDs I bid on from a Circuit City
> closing, but they are are factory sealed new merchandise.
Have they been certified by a major TPG?
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
The trading magic beans for cows business must be slow.
oly