Collectors vs. Archaeologists
Dave Welsh
collectors to have access to any material excavated by archaeologists.
Instead, they want it all kept as "public property" by institutions. One
leading radical archaeologist has even gone so far as to advocate
prohibiting the sale of any artifact that has presumably been excavated,
regardless of provenance.
It has been alleged that arguments advanced by radical archaeologists
against continuation of the present free collecting environment are nothing
more than a smoke screen cleverly put up to disguise their true motive,
which is to secure exclusive control of access to all "archaeological source
material" including such common artifacts as ancient coins.
Moneta-L listreaders should be under no illusions as to the true intentions
of these radical archaeologists. If they get their way, it will eventually
become impossible to continue private collecting of ancient coins. Paul
Barford comes to Moneta-L not to explore the truth as a bona fide
participant in our discussions, but as your enemy - a relentless critic of
ancient coin collecting who intends to prevent you from continuing this
time-honored and socially beneficial activity. His true objective in
participating in discussions on Moneta-L is to manipulate them so as to
advance that destructive goal.
The measures Paul Barford advocates would make it impossible for you to
lawfully acquire any ancient artifact that does not have provenance
traceable to its find spot, with proof of licit export from its state of
origin or to its presence in a collection prior to 1970. Very few ancient
coins have such a provenance. No one had ever thought it would be important
to document provenance of such common objects, before radical archaeologists
began lecturing collectors (and the public) about how we are causing looting
of archaological sites by collecting unprovenanced artifacts. That
allegation is being presented to the public as though it were scientifically
established truth, rather than what it really is - a mere hypothesis for
which no verifiable evidence has ever been presented.
I do not believe that this allegation can be proven, and in my opinion the
real "moral lepers" in this controversy are those who seek to deprive
collectors of their rights without demonstrating just cause.
Dave Welsh
www.classicalcoins.com
ser...@classicalcoins.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mone...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mone...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of romanpeddler
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:46 AM
To: Mone...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Moneta-L] Collectors VS Arcfheologist
This is a very wide subject that is being covered and instead of jumping the
backs of collectors, why not go after the real bad guys. These would be the
government that creates the problem by their restrictions that create the
market for artifacts including coins. They have no way to catolog or even
store correctly the thousands of coins that are being dug up. This is really
being done by collectors. It would seem that the loot would sit untouched
and unresearched if not for collectors.
I take pride in my collection and have created my own private museum which
most collectors do. Hats off to the Brits for common sense. They set the
standard by which all other countries should follow in the handling of
archeological finds. Most countries have no capital for the preservation of
these materials in these financial times. Why not have the archeological
people oversee the digs, inspect the recovered artifacts and separate out
what is of importance and what is not. The government could then either
release the unwanted artuifacts to the finders if privately found or for
sale thru their agencies if covered by government authorized and subsidized
digs.Both sides would then have access to materials that could be legally
obtained.
James Weston
hoard for their own private and hidden collections. Also, they don't want
any "artifact wealth" in the hands of private citizens, hoarding it all for
their museums and themselves. They use the "loss of provenance and loss of
proper research" as an excuse toward this end.
This is also why entire nations are becoming involved in stealing
rightfully owned artifacts from private collections, even those that are
over a century old. It is a greed grab.
"Dave Welsh" <dwel...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:OOcfl.155159$H12....@newsfe12.iad...
Dave Welsh
What you say is perhaps true of some archaeologists but I don't think that
most in the discipline are really like that. It is the radical faction that
is causing all these difficulties.
Before Colin Renfrew began his anticollecting campaign, collectors and
archaeologists were allies.
Dave Welsh
dwel...@cox.net
"James Weston" <west...@patriot.org> wrote in message
news:glkk7r$pdn$1...@news.motzarella.org...
note.boy
Roman bronze coin by very harshly cleaning it.
I emailed Time Team suggesting that she is never allowed near a coin again.
Billy
"Dave Welsh" <dwel...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:yLrfl.44371$8a4....@newsfe08.iad...
Dave Welsh
important collection] was ruined by the idiocy of an ignorant and
incompetent female curator who sent them all out to be polished:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L/message/647
There seems to be no limit to the incompetence, negligence and rapacity of
those put in charge of coins and other antiquities that have been placed in
the custody of source state academic institutions and cultural ministries.
Nepotism and favoritism are rife, and those appointees who do not endanger
artifacts they are responsible for by ignorance and stupidity, all too often
steal them.
If one had to select custodial candidates for artifacts based upon
knowledge, competence, honesty and reliablility, collectors would rank far
above most curators and officials in museums and cultural ministries. It is
only the best institutions whose standards exceed that which the typical
collector would provide.
Dave Welsh
dwel...@cox.net
"note.boy" <note...@naespamntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:zkBfl.67$zv7...@newsfe01.ams2...
Arizona Coin Collector
----------------------------------------------------
"Dave Welsh" <dwel...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:aVUfl.43390$E%6.1...@newsfe04.iad...
Geoff Rockbridge
your reading skills.
Arizona Coin Collector
From: "Geoff Rockbridge" <studly...@invasion.net>
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:47 PM
Subject: STUPID FEMALE ARCHAEOLOGISTS
> Arizona, nothing wrong with the subject line. You just need to brush up
> on
> your reading skills.
>
>
>
>
>> Something is a miss here.... SUBJECT LINE
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
Hello
I would say somone needs to brush-up on there TROLL SKILLS
myself.
Lorrie S. <lorri...@yahoo.com>
Mark B." <bellin...@aol.spam.com>
Johnny Pride" <fullo...@briny.org>
"James Weston" <les...@bress.org>
"Geoff Rockbridge" <studly...@invasion.net
mazorj
"Arizona Coin Collector" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:pt2dnejDzf-NCx3U...@earthlink.com...
Anyone want to bet they're all the same person? That's pretty common
for obnoxious troll sock puppets.
Nick Knight
>> I would say somone needs to brush-up on there TROLL SKILLS myself.
>>
>> Lorrie S. <lorri...@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Mark B." <bellin...@aol.spam.com>
>>
>> Johnny Pride" <fullo...@briny.org>
>>
>> "James Weston" <les...@bress.org>
>>
>> "Geoff Rockbridge" <studly...@invasion.net
>Anyone want to bet they're all the same person? That's pretty common for
>obnoxious troll sock puppets.
I only had posts from 2 of them in my keep, but it was interesting to see
that the posting hosts were the same, as was some of the other header info.
None of it proves that they are the same, but it's certainly unusual :)
Nick
RWF
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3R0gl.2656$Aw2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
You forgot the latest troll, Bob Golden
William Earl Haskell
> James,
>
> What you say is perhaps true of some archaeologists but I don't think that
> most in the discipline are really like that. It is the radical faction that
> is causing all these difficulties.
>
> Before Colin Renfrew began his anticollecting campaign, collectors and
> archaeologists were allies.
As a collector AND a long-time member of the Texas Archeological
Society, I can see both sides pretty well, and can see problems on both
sides as well. The archeologists don't necessarily have a problem with
collectors, often they're the ones who find a site for the archies to
work on - and the rules here at least are that artifacts found belong to
the land owner; considering the shortage of storage space at the local
historical societies, this can be a good thing, so long as they don't
get lost or thrown out. To tell the truth, not all artifacts are equal
and as far as the researchers involved are concerned, sometimes that box
of stones from the burned rock midden could just disappear without
anyone turning a hair.
OK, here's the collector's problem: pot hunters and looters. People who
casually destroy a site while looking for pretty stuff to sell on eBay
and elsewhere. Here in Texas human remains are legally protected by
NAGPRA (the Native American Graves Protection and Restoration Act), but
you can imagine how concerned looters are for such matters. Wouldn't
this human skull look nice on that shelf over there? You KNOW you want it.
Those coins we collect are often excellent diagnostic artifacts and thus
sometimes have a value that is different from the one applied by the
marketplace. Of course, once they've been studied, unless there is an
especially strong reason to keep them back they can very well go to the
market.
Of course all this is just, like, MY opinion, maaan.
Dave Welsh
sometimes have a value that is different from the one applied by the
marketplace. Of course, once they've been studied, unless there is an
especially strong reason to keep them back they can very well go to the
market.
>
> Of course all this is just, like, MY opinion, maaan.
If everyone thought that way, there wouldn't be any conflict. But everyone
does not think that way.
For some insights into the radical archaeologists' position on collecting,
see:
http://www.savingantiquities.org/
http://paul-barford.blogspot.com/
http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/
http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/2008/09/renfrews-hypothesis-are-collectors-real.html
The position taken by Renfrew and his disciples seems rational only until
one digs below the surface - then it becomes apparent that there is no
scientific basis for the assertion that the collecting market causes looting
of archaeological sites. There is, however, verifiable evidence that
collecting does not cause looting.
Dave Welsh
dwel...@cox.net
"William Earl Haskell" <for...@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:49891de2$0$10299$a726...@news.hal-pc.org...
Bruce Remick
>> Those coins we collect are often excellent diagnostic artifacts and thus
> sometimes have a value that is different from the one applied by the
> marketplace. Of course, once they've been studied, unless there is an
> especially strong reason to keep them back they can very well go to the
> market.
>>
>> Of course all this is just, like, MY opinion, maaan.
>
> If everyone thought that way, there wouldn't be any conflict. But everyone
> does not think that way.
>
> For some insights into the radical archaeologists' position on collecting,
> see:
>
> http://www.savingantiquities.org/
>
> http://paul-barford.blogspot.com/
>
> http://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/
>
> http://classicalcoins.blogspot.com/2008/09/renfrews-hypothesis-are-collectors-real.html
>
> The position taken by Renfrew and his disciples seems rational only until
> one digs below the surface - then it becomes apparent that there is no
> scientific basis for the assertion that the collecting market causes
> looting
> of archaeological sites. There is, however, verifiable evidence that
> collecting does not cause looting.
Never? I could certainly see how an association could be made. It would be
akin to saying that there is verifiable evidence that the US drug market
does not cause the rise of Mexican drug cartels. Some may argue otherwise.
Maybe it's semantics. Anyway, it appears to me that if there were no museum
or private collector market there would be little incentive for anyone to
loot archaelogical sites.
mazorj
"Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:_fhil.3377$ml6...@newsfe09.iad...
A slightly better way to phrase the analogy would be to claim that
there is no scientific proof that illegal drug use in the U.S. causes
illegal manufacture and sale of drugs from here and from foreign
sources. AFAIK, there may be absolutely no "scientific proof" to that
effect. Even with all the grants going for seemingly trivial research
like, say, whether beans cause farting, who is going to authorize
squandering scarce grant resources on something as obvious as that?
Ditto for private collecting and looting.
So does the lack of scientific papers "prove" the claim that there is
no connection between collectors and looters? Duh...
Dave Welsh
Hypothesis," posted as a new thread.