Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Arizona Coin Collector
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-money/blog/devil-details/counterfeit-coins-cost-consumers-millions/768/
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
By Kathy Kristof
Oct 12, 2009
Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
buying what they believe are rare coins, but
they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
counterfeits.
(fake 1916-D dime, front)
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-dime-front.jpg?tag=col1;attachment_776
(fake 1916-D dime, back)
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-dime-back.jpg?tag=col1;attachment_777
More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured
in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S.,
according to Coin World, a respected industry
publication. Some of these were peddled as
"replicas" but they were manufactured without the
requisite "copy" stamp.
Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China
don't contain the "copy" marking that' required
by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed
at warning consumers that they're getting a
mass-produced replica rather than the original,
according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy
to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets
and through Internet auctions, without giving the
buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes.
"Millions of dollars already have been spent on
these fakes and potentially millions more may be
unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly
think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said
Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional
Numismatists Guild.
How big of a difference does it make? A genuine
1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica
can be had for $21.
"Generally the replicas being sold have zero
commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice
president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told
me in an interview. "Most people are looking at
a total loss."
Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a
time when precious metal prices are hitting
all-time highs, largely because consumers have
become nervous about traditional investments
such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly
declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly
$5 billion in rare coins are sold each year,
even in the midst of today's recession.
In a joint release issued by the American
Numismatic Association, the Industry Council
for Tangible Assets, the Professional
Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading
Service, the groups urged consumers to
research before they buy and restrict their
purchases to reputable companies that they
have reason to trust. If you are tempted to
buy at a flea market or online, you may want
to check out the coin with authentication
companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service.
The Professional Numismatists Guild will also
provide a copy of its booklet, "What You Should
Know Before You Buy Rare Coins," for $1 if you
send a request to them at 3950 Concordia Lane,
Fallbrook, CA 92028.
..
Mr. Jaggers
Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden
of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession
of the coin. By then the seller is long gone.
James the Wary
Peter Irwin
>
> Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden
> of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession
> of the coin. By then the seller is long gone.
>
> James the Wary
>
Chinese fakes seem to vary from low quality stuff which wouldn't
fool anyone with a clue to high quality stuff which will fool
some experts some of the time. I know that I've seen low quality
fakes at flea markets, but I have no idea if I've seen any of the
high end Chinese fakes.
How common are the high quality fakes now?
It used to be claimed that one was fairly safe buying from
respectable dealers. I've never bought a certified coin.
I collect world coins and those of Canada (my own country)
and rarely buy anything expensive, and I count $50 a coin
as expensive on my budget.
Peter.
--
pir...@ktb.net
Peter.
Mr. Jaggers
> Mr. Jaggers <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the
>> burden of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and
>> taken possession of the coin. By then the seller is long gone.
>>
>> James the Wary
>>
> Hi James,
>
> Chinese fakes seem to vary from low quality stuff which wouldn't
> fool anyone with a clue to high quality stuff which will fool
> some experts some of the time. I know that I've seen low quality
> fakes at flea markets, but I have no idea if I've seen any of the
> high end Chinese fakes.
As mentioned in the material cited by the OP, *all* of the fakes being
offered as bearing a "REPLICA" counterstamp started out without the
counterstamp. Win one of these in an online auction, and the seller will
likely contact you and offer you an example without the counterstamp at no
extra charge. Thus is a mechanism set up for these things to be vectored by
all sorts of unscrupulous sellers, even some from the U.S. and Canada.
> How common are the high quality fakes now?
They are disturbingly common, and a few have made their way into respectable
slabs. Even more have made their way into fake slabs. One way that I can
tell is by seeing offerings that are way out of proportion to their known
rarity. If all of a sudden we see regular offerings of coins from Gold
Coast, the 19th century speciedalers from Norway, or the silver crown from
Zanzibar, just to name a few, we can be reasonably sure they are all fake.
> It used to be claimed that one was fairly safe buying from
> respectable dealers. I've never bought a certified coin.
> I collect world coins and those of Canada (my own country)
> and rarely buy anything expensive, and I count $50 a coin
> as expensive on my budget.
It's literally a minefield out there, Peter, but mostly for the more
expensive coins, much less so for the $50 and under collectible coins. It
still is incumbent upon you, the collector, to have at least a working
familiarity with what genuine coins look like, and that's not at all easy
with those from quite a few countries. Your best bet, as you suggest, is
still to buy from knowledgeable dealers, and if it's a rarity at all, buy
only if the coin has been authenticated by PCGS or NGC. Peace of mind knows
no price.
James
Peter Irwin
My main collection is 5 cent (including 5 pfennig, 5 kopeks etc)
denomination world coins. There are more than a few in my collection
where I have not seen any others of that type. As it happens, the
majority of these were inexpensive enough to make forgery uneconomic,
but this isn't always the case. Some of the Mexican Revolution regional
5 centavos were said to exist as forgeries or unmarked replicas even
before the current influx of Chinese fakes, and the same goes for
my Chinese Soviet 5 cents. My only source of confidence comes from
my belief that the dealers who sold them to me were both honest
and competent.
> Your best bet, as you suggest, is still to buy from knowledgeable
> dealers,
That would seem to be an essential matter of policy. Before eBay,
proper coin dealers were the only practical source, apart from
relatives and circulation finds, for adding to a collection.
I haven't gone to eBay for coins partly because I see that most
auctions seem to be by people who do not know how to accurately
describe what they are selling, and partly because the shipping
on a single coin tends to raise the price of a moderately priced
coin so as to make it uncompetitive with what a dealer would charge.
> and if it's a rarity at all
I don't think I have any actual rarities as coin collectors
understand the term. I have some coins which I have only
seen once on Frank Robinson's list in the past decade, and
never on Bob Reis' list or at my local dealer, or at coin
shows. The same goes for some coins at each of the other
sources never appearing anywhere else.
Peter.
--
pir...@ktb.net
Mike Marotta
Nothing is being done because the Peoples Republic of China is able to
hold the enforcement authorities of the United States of America at
bay, bulwarked by over A TRILLION DOLLARS in US Government (and
corporate) Debt held by the PRC government.
These fakes are productive work for people whose per capita income is
$4,000 to $6,000 per year (CIA World Factbook). And that's the
average. Half make less. Weighted averages say that more than half
make still less, the mean being bouyed by the earners at the top. If
you have not seen this video, pay close attention to the details of
the place.
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/
These fakes only harm rich Americas tossing out disposable income. It
is not like poison toothpaste or even poison dog food. Technically,
no one is getting hurt -- at least that's how the Chinese see it.
In Philip K. Dick's THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, America lost World War
II. The East Coast and South are under the Germans. The West Coast
is occupied by Japan. The Rockies are still open. Life is not so bad
in San Francisco. The Japanese are consumers. They love Americana
and pay the big bucks for Frontier Artifacts ... most of which are
made anew in the Rockies... Same theory the Chinese operate under
today...
Now, truly, we here see the problem differently. Susan Headley is not
alone in testing the ability of professional numismatists to cull the
goats from the sheep. These fakes harm the market generally, and
literally and specifically and unarguably cheat the buyer, depriving
the buyer of the benefit of the bargain, a clear fraud, destructive of
savings, and thus destructive of time spent earning. Theft is murder
writ small.
But, again, the USA Government in Washington is powerless because the
PRC Government in Beijing holds the IOUs.
On the other hand, when I gave my talk on Counterfeits at the ANA in
Pittsburgh, I got a statement from an FBI public relations specialist
that Chinese counterfeiters were beheaded -- for making fake US
Currency, i.e, real money. That is something the American government
acts on. Collectors getting ripped off is a lesser problem to them,
not worth the cost of China's disapproval.
Handwringing by the PNG, ANA and ICTA will not change the geopolitical
situation. Realpolitik is real politics. A is A
Mike M.
Michael E. Marotta
"Objectively concerned."
Mr. Jaggers
> Do not miss the bigger picture, miss the forest for the trees.
>
> Nothing is being done because the Peoples Republic of China is able to
> hold the enforcement authorities of the United States of America at
> bay, bulwarked by over A TRILLION DOLLARS in US Government (and
> corporate) Debt held by the PRC government.
>
> These fakes are productive work for people whose per capita income is
> $4,000 to $6,000 per year (CIA World Factbook). And that's the
> average. Half make less. Weighted averages say that more than half
> make still less, the mean being bouyed by the earners at the top. If
> you have not seen this video, pay close attention to the details of
> the place.
> http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/
>
> These fakes only harm rich Americas tossing out disposable income. It
> is not like poison toothpaste or even poison dog food. Technically,
> no one is getting hurt -- at least that's how the Chinese see it.
That's an interesting way to assess the phenomenon. Those same rich
Americans might lose millions or billions in the stock market, attribute it
all to so much "biz" and figure they can make it all back one day. Losing
100k on a fake 1796 half dollar pales by comparison, but denies the
possibility of ever being made whole again, so in the mind it looms larger
than other kinds of loss. As for me, I just hope my unslabbed F15 1926-S
nickel is real.
James the Optimistic
Peter
>
> As for me, I just hope my unslabbed F15 1926-S
> nickel is real.
>
>
Naturally, I hope you are not disappointed. Even so, I still think a
central question is why anyone would pay more for a collectible coin
than the price the Chinese ask. Their best quality of coins are made
on genuine presses that were used by the US mint. They can produce
the same pressures, exactly. They have actual dies from the US mint
and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer
enhanced laser etching techniques. They have access to the genuine
planchettes that the mint uses. If someone is collecting something,
they often aim for the best available; is genuine really better? In
fact, how is it different? As other posters remarked, labor in China
is very cheap and this business is not illegal in China. If it is
possible to find a difference between the Chinese product and the
original coins, it seems almost certain that the Chinese will shortly
improve their product so that there is not any longer a difference.
The Giant Brain
Cost Consumers Copious Cash".
The Giant Brain
"Peter" <w2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5bf2ba8-3db3-44a7...@f21g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
>They have actual dies from the US mint
and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer
enhanced laser etching techniques.
IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies.
Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is!
Peter
It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with
dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses
from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it
had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am
less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a lecture
by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine.
Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced etching would,
with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. His
estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set.
So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask?
Mr. Jaggers
Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard drive,
often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? I personally like the
feeling that I am physically connecting with the American past when I handle
an old coin. Only a genuine coin will convey this totally irrational
notion.
James the Illogical
The Giant Brain
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, die-quality steel is easily available on the open market, thus
there is no need to recycle old dies.
I'd like to see some type of proof that the Chinese obtained 19th and 20th
century mint dies other than your assertion that this is so.
Peter
Proof is a somewhat broad term. I listened to a lecture that I had
not anticipated hearing. Consequently, I was not as fully prepared as
I might have been had I arrived prepared and seeking proof (e.g., I
arrived with an excellent camera, but did not use it as I had a dinner
appointment with my brother). Consequently, if you are interested,
you will need to actually supply some of your own proof. The link
below is from someone else that attended a lecture given about the
same time and is illustrated.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=741248
Even so, Dr. Dubay has actually worked with the creators of the coins
and knows them personally. He would be able to provide much more
detail. He also has a large variety of samples of their work.
Peter
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, yes it does seem illogical. When you say that you handle an old
coin, how do you know that? Proving it to yourself would seem to be a
primary interest that might be supplemented by an interest in proving
it to others.
Clearly, if you have had the coin for many years and know that you had
it before the Chinese discovered this money making scheme, you may be
right. If you can document the provenance sufficiently you may be
able to pass onward the same feeling and consequently do so at a
profit (or perhaps at least limit your expense).
Otherwise, a collateral point made by Dr. Dubay was that, quite
clearly, making fakes is a serious business for these folks. It is
how they feed themselves and is by no means illegal in China. They
very well understand that they can charge much more for excellent
fakes than they can for ones that look like Cracker Jacks prizes.
They are willing to work very hard with excellent materials to earn
higher prices.
Mr. Jaggers
Well, I suppose that if one were to take your line of argument to its limit,
he would have to admit that nothing at all can actually be *known*.
> Clearly, if you have had the coin for many years and know that you had
> it before the Chinese discovered this money making scheme, you may be
> right. If you can document the provenance sufficiently you may be
> able to pass onward the same feeling and consequently do so at a
> profit (or perhaps at least limit your expense).
I care not a whit about what happens to my coins once I cross the Chilly
River. And if my ownership of them fails to constitute adequate
documentation of provenance, so be it, I intend to do nothing about it. I'm
going to enjoy them as much as I can while I'm here and while they are here.
After all, I bought them for my own enjoyment, and my own enjoyment only. I
presume the attending dealers made money in each of my transactions with
them, but it matters not to me whether I or anyone else ever does.
> Otherwise, a collateral point made by Dr. Dubay was that, quite
> clearly, making fakes is a serious business for these folks. It is
> how they feed themselves and is by no means illegal in China. They
> very well understand that they can charge much more for excellent
> fakes than they can for ones that look like Cracker Jacks prizes.
> They are willing to work very hard with excellent materials to earn
> higher prices.
Capitalism in its purest form, that, say I.
James the Rugged Individualist
'who pulls himself up by his own bootstraps on a daily basis'
The Giant Brain
>Consequently, if you are interested, you will need to actually supply some of
>your own proof.
Let's see now...
I have to provide myself proof of your assertions.
Sure, let me get right on that and I'll get back to you.
sgt23
> Arizona Coin Collector wrote:
> > FROM:
>
> > Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
>
> > By Kathy Kristof
> > Oct 12, 2009
>
> > Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
> > and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
> > buying what they believe are rare coins, but
> > they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
> > counterfeits.
>
> > (fake 1916-D dime, front)
>
> > (fake 1916-D dime, back)
> >http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-dime-back.jpg?tag=col1;attachment...
This is one reason I only buy from people on eBay who have a return
policy of at least 30 days so I have time check the authenticity of
the coin. I go to coin dealers and friends who also collect coins have
them check the coin. Thankfully a couple of the dealers have been in
the business for about 30 years and they are members of the ANA and
PNG and I put a lot of trust in them.
Mike Marotta
> ... The link
> below is from someone else that attended a lecture given about the
> same time and is illustrated.
> http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=741248
> and knows them personally.
Thanks for the link. The post on Collectors Universe is from Dennis
Tucker, a publisher with Whitman. If he was impressed with the
presentation, then it was serious. I note also in that post that Dr.
Dubay's categorization of Chinese fakes is implemented in the new
Professional Edition of The Red Book.
The pictures are stunning. Proof, of course requires more. As we
know, pictures alone cannot convey enough information. At my talk on
fakes in at the ANA in Pittsburgh, I showed slides of counterfeit
Seated Dollars. Dealers found them convincing. However, handling the
coins gave them away. That said, I also showed fake Morgan Dollars
for which hands-on evidence was not helpful. This problem is not new
to 2009. It has been growing over the years. The Chinese fakes of
mainstream US Type coins is now a concern. Everyone is wringing their
hands. Back in 2000 no one was worried about the flood of Bulgarian
fakes of ancients.
Put into a wider context, fake Bosch brake pads, counterfeit Oster
blenders, hokey Gucci handbags, pirated pop music, and other phony
consumer goods are serious problems. Life goes on if someone wears an
Olympic t-shirt that was not licensed by the Olympic Committee.
However, in the case of industrial goods and household appliances,
life might not go on. We buy the name brand because we expect the
quality that goes with it. The other side of the coin is that these
criminal enterprises join the cash streams of international
terrorism. People who smuggle cigarettes also smuggle weapons.
ltl...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> FROM:http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-money/blog/devil-details/counterfei...
>
> Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
>
> By Kathy Kristof
> Oct 12, 2009
>
> Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
> and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
> buying what they believe are rare coins, but
> they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
> counterfeits.
>
>
> (fake 1916-D dime, back)http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-dime-back.jpg?tag=col1;attachment...
>
> in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S.,
> according to Coin World, a respected industry
> publication. Some of these were peddled as
> "replicas" but they were manufactured without the
> requisite "copy" stamp.
>
> Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China
> don't contain the "copy" marking that' required
> by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act,
Does the coin have a "Made in China" stamp?
If not, how can one tell whether the coin/replica is
produced in China? Sounds like the companies are
trying to scare the consumers into buying slabbed
coins.
ltl...@hotmail.com
> > FROM:
>
> > Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
>
> > By Kathy Kristof
> > Oct 12, 2009
>
> > Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
> > and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
> > buying what they believe are rare coins, but
> > they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
> > counterfeits.
>
> > (fake 1916-D dime, front)
>
> > (fake 1916-D dime, back)
> >http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-dime-back.jpg?tag=col1;attachment...
I always think it is easier to conterfeit the plastic packaging. If
counterfeiting is a
serious concern, there will be no acceptable slab.
>
> James the Wary- Hide quoted text -
Jon Purkey
wrote:
I once contacted a Chinese seller to see if I could buy coins that had
not been artificially aged. I'd be willing to pay a reasonable amount
for a nice, freshly minted Morgan or Trade dollar (MS-67+) like some I
have seen in pictures of their operation. But the seller just replied
that he could pick out one of the nicer coins for me. He then added a
long sales pitch about how I could buy coins without the "replica"
stamp, even made out of 90% silver. Plus there were links to his
site/store showing pictures of dozens of key/semi-key date Morgan
dollars and probably every Trade dollar.
Nick Knight
at 10:34 PM, Reid Goldsborough <reidgol...@yahoo.com> said:
>currency. Therefore anybody possessing counterfeits, even contemporary
>counterfeits of Bust halves or ancient Owls, supports terrorists.
Fortunately, I only catch a glimpse of Mike's "wisdom" on rare occassion,
thanks to my seemingly efficient twitfile. Looks like he's still posting
his drivel. Thanks for quoting it <smirk> :).
Here's one of those dangerous fake busties now. I was just made aware of
it, and probably only then because it had already completed. Not that *I'd*
chase one this high. Besides, it's an 1838, and not even a "wrong type"
1838:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220493086962
Look at how deceptive this one is! Everybody should take a close look at
their junkers and make sure they aren't lucky enough to find one of these!
Hopefully our Chinese minting friends don't see this so as to get the idea
to create fake fakes!
There's a HUGE difference between contemporary counterfeits and those made
in recent times. This should help support that fact.
Nick
ltl...@hotmail.com
> On Oct 13, 2:26 pm, Peter <w2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ... The link
> > below is from someone else that attended a lecture given about the
> > same time and is illustrated.
> >http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=741248
> > ... Dr. Dubay has actually worked with the creators of the coins
> > and knows them personally.
>
> Thanks for the link. The post on Collectors Universe is from Dennis
> Tucker, a publisher with Whitman. If he was impressed with the
> presentation, then it was serious. I note also in that post that Dr.
> Dubay's categorization of Chinese fakes is implemented in the new
> Professional Edition of The Red Book.
>
> The pictures are stunning. Proof, of course requires more. As we
> know, pictures alone cannot convey enough information. At my talk on
> fakes in at the ANA in Pittsburgh, I showed slides of counterfeit
> Seated Dollars. Dealers found them convincing. However, handling the
> coins gave them away.
Is it possible to determine whether a slabbed coin is a fake one
without breaking the plastic casing?
Reid Goldsborough
> Is it possible to determine whether a slabbed coin is a fake one
> without breaking the plastic casing?
Yes. Breaking a coin out of a slab lets you weigh it and inspect its
edges, which can be important. You can also do a specific gravity test
only with a coin out of its slab.
But you're often able to condemn a coin as a counterfeit using other
criteria, the most important being style and fabric. Lesser quality
forgeries are different in style from the authentic coins they copy.
They may be grossly off, or subtly off, for instance by the pairing
obverse and reverse dies of different years.
Better quality forgeries, including some of the best die-transfer
fakes coming out of China, have a fabric that gives them away. Their
surfaces for instance may appear to have the luster of an uncirculated
coin when the degree of wear is such that such luster would be
impossible. Or their rims, including any denticles, may be
uncharacteristic of coins of that type.
There are lots of other tests too. But some of the most interesting
fakes are those that in fact are in a slab, including those of the top-
tier grading companies, which does happen. According to all reports
and evidence, though, the top-tier companies do catch the vast
majority of fakes.
--
Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
Mr. Jaggers
At 2009 CICF, PCGS was set up and were displaying an entire caseful of coins
that they had slabbed - foolers, every one.
James the Jester
ltl...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Is it easier to fake the packaging of top tier grading companies than
the coins?