long beach
som...@some.domain
gone. even including those, there were very few out of state dealers. there
were some major sellers with a lot of material. prices seemed high and slabs
were about 50/50 with raw. lots of material for dollar, large cent and 20
dollar gold collectors. there were very few lincolns and they were pricey. too
many were market graded.
we found about a dozen large cents to fill holes. we were able to upgrade 5
1850's to au and brn uncs for short money. the replaced coins will go to the
youngsters.
speaking of cents, everyone knew ira but no one had seen him. we had hoped to
say hello and wish him well.
anyone else go today, or earlier?
stonej
years now, some of the problem being with
how it is run these days and the other the competition from the
Baltimore show being more attractive to east coast
dealers and collectors who don't want to travel all the way to
California anymore.
With the reduction in the number of flights and rising prices I think
it will have a negative impact on some national
shows with people less likely to want to travel as much.
som...@some.domain
and today there were 3 tables. the usps had their "window" set up with no
takers. there was a good representation of ragpickers and a few watch sellers,
too.
but my so said the show was much larger a mere 1/2 dozen years ago. i saw one
ny dealer and none from new england.
another sign of decline was dealers eager to talk to the vox pop. usually you
have to wave cash at them. a few even chatted about coins!
Mr. Jaggers
Was TDR still there? Did you spend any time at his table?
James
som...@some.domain
half cents, i bought 2 coins from him. middle back third of the bourse? older
heavyset white hair, nice guy?
this guy had a two cent piece i almost sold the farm for. it was a really well
struck small motto, red in protected places.
Mr. Jaggers
Sorry, thought you might have guessed it's Tom Reynolds.
James
som...@some.domain
reality
> some...@some.domain wrote:
> > In article <gb4d6d01...@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mr. Jaggers"
> > <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
He was there. He and Rick Snow are a couple of the good guys who
actually hang around to the bitter end.
Of course, as the OP pointed out, around 1/4 of the tables weren't
even there on Saturday including the losers such as Superior and
Heritage along with the other loser dealers who have given the general
public the finger. It was up to 1/3 or more empty by 2PM.
If they are going to insist on charging full price admission on
Saturday then they should cut the crap and force dealers to stay till
the end. Otherwise make it free admission on Saturday and give the
jerkoffs who leave early the worst tables in the back of the hall that
they so richly deserve. It totally sucks to walk into a major show
and all that's left are dust bunnies and empty tables at the first and
largest tables that you see at the *main entrance*. It's an
embarrassment to the hobby.
som...@some.domain
>On Sep 20, 8:32=A0pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>> some...@some.domain wrote:
>> > In article <gb4d6d01...@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mr. Jaggers"
>> > <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>> >> some...@some.domain wrote:
>> >>> we went to the last day today. arriving at noon, about 1/4 of the
>> >>> dealers were gone. even including those, there were very few out of
>> >>> state dealers. there were some major sellers with a lot of material.
>> >>> prices seemed high and slabs were about 50/50 with raw. lots of
>> >>> material for dollar, large cent and 20 dollar gold collectors. there
>> >>> were very few lincolns and they were pricey. too many were market
>> >>> graded.
>> >>> we found about a dozen large cents to fill holes. we were able to
>> >>> upgrade 5 1850's to au and brn uncs for short money. the replaced
>> >>> coins will go to the youngsters.
>> >>> speaking of cents, everyone knew ira but no one had seen him. we had
>> >>> hoped to say hello and wish him well.
>> >>> anyone else go today, or earlier?
>>
i'm not complaining. despite being correctly listed for varietys, i still
cherry picked 3 large cents for a lot less than i expected. i went expecting
to maybe afford 3 coins and ended up only 10% over budget with a dozen coins.
i thought the large cents market was supposed to be active, so i was
surprised.
next show i hit, i'll ask you guys for the good dealers.
Mr. Jaggers
The big-name dealers do not cater to the "general public" even when they are
manning their tables. You will never see them with two or three cases of
coins in 2x2s or even slabs tightly packed wall to wall. Any coins they
have are always in boxes and available only to big shots who they know are
strong buyers. They're always on their cellphones and computers wheeling
and dealing when they're not hustling material from other dealers.
>> If they are going to insist on charging full price admission on
>> Saturday then they should cut the crap and force dealers to stay till
>> the end. Otherwise make it free admission on Saturday and give the
>> jerkoffs who leave early the worst tables in the back of the hall
>> that they so richly deserve. It totally sucks to walk into a major
>> show
>> and all that's left are dust bunnies and empty tables at the first
>> and largest tables that you see at the *main entrance*. It's an
>> embarrassment to the hobby.
Yes, it is, and Saturday has now become the new Sunday, hasn't it? I'm in
total agreement about the free admission when the dealer crowd thins out
like that. On the other hand, the big dealers, who buy multiple tables and
who attract the big money, may be the cause of a show ending up in the
black, as opposed to in the red, sort of a necessary evil when setting up
the bourse protocol. Kevin Foley has tried to wield a heavy hand in this
regard, with mixed results at best.
> i don't know tom or rick, i should have asked here for dealers to
> look for.
> i'm not complaining. despite being correctly listed for varietys, i
> still
> cherry picked 3 large cents for a lot less than i expected. i went
> expecting
> to maybe afford 3 coins and ended up only 10% over budget with a
> dozen coins.
> i thought the large cents market was supposed to be active, so i was
> surprised.
> next show i hit, i'll ask you guys for the good dealers.
Glad you found some good copper! You really should get to know Tom Reynolds
if you want the straight dope on large cents. If nothing else, equip
yourself with bib and droolcup when you sit down at his table.
James
note.boy
"reality" <realit...@ausi.com> wrote in message
news:fb29fae4-dba3-4d2b...@i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Perhaps the organiser should charge a fee for those who want to wind up
early, $5,000? Billy
Mr. Jaggers
How do you propose he collect the 5k?
James
Jeff
Charge everyone the 5k up front. Then do a table-check an hour before
the show is set to close, and return the 5k to anyone still there!
Jeff
mazorj
"Jeff" <je...@spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:20080922133531.33b5c5b2@homer...
That might work if the fees were more realistic and on a per table
basis.
And then you could hold several drawings to award half the collected
fees to the hardy attendees who stayed to the end! (Of course, you
must be present to win.) That would give attendees incentive to come
and stay, which might even give vendors a little more incentive to
stay until closing.
Mr. Jaggers
Dealer costs are bad enough, let alone a 5k "cover charge" to be paid in
advance, often weeks, months, or even years in advance. They would get no
interest on their money for the duration that it was tied up. Dealers would
have to stand in line with their inventory in tow to leave, to make sure
their attendance was duly noted. Too many mistakes can be made at show
teardown, as everyone, including show organizers, are extremely fatigued.
Show teardown brings greater vulerability to thieves as well. How many
lawsuits would ensue from dealers who claimed that they were there at the
end, but not counted? Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't you volunteer to
take care of the bookkeeping at teardown of a major U.S. coin convention,
then report back to these pages afterward?
James
reality
> >>> Sorry, thought you might have guessed it's Tom Reynolds.
>
> >>> James
>
> >> He was there. He and Rick Snow are a couple of the good guys who
> >> actually hang around to the bitter end.
>
> >> Of course, as the OP pointed out, around 1/4 of the tables weren't
> >> even there on Saturday including the losers such as Superior and
> >> Heritage along with the other loser dealers who have given the
> >> general public the finger. It was up to 1/3 or more empty by 2PM.
>
> The big-name dealers do not cater to the "general public" even when they are
> manning their tables. You will never see them with two or three cases of
> coins in 2x2s or even slabs tightly packed wall to wall. Any coins they
> have are always in boxes and available only to big shots who they know are
> strong buyers. They're always on their cellphones and computers wheeling
> and dealing when they're not hustling material from other dealers.
And not every dealer that high tailed it on Friday afternoon are so-
called "big name". IMO they're just slackers. BTW, why even bother
with a table to begin with if all you're doing is insider trading with
the other sharks? Just carry a briefcase in with your crap that you
want to "wheel and deal" and hire security for a half hour to escort
you to and from your car. That has to cost WAY less than a table at
Long Beach.
>
> >> If they are going to insist on charging full price admission on
> >> Saturday then they should cut the crap and force dealers to stay till
> >> the end. Otherwise make it free admission on Saturday and give the
> >> jerkoffs who leave early the worst tables in the back of the hall
> >> that they so richly deserve. It totally sucks to walk into a major
> >> show
> >> and all that's left are dust bunnies and empty tables at the first
> >> and largest tables that you see at the *main entrance*. It's an
> >> embarrassment to the hobby.
>
> Yes, it is, and Saturday has now become the new Sunday, hasn't it? I'm in
Which is even sadder than it used to be when you think about it. Most
people I know have a day job where they earn money to pay for
discretionary purchases such as their hobby, and don't have the luxury
of being able to take a day off during the week just to go to a coin
show when the dealers might actually still be there. Most normal
people with real jobs tend to have to go to events like that on the
weekend. Also there is a nice little Young Numismatist program at
Long Beach that is held on Saturday, so I'm sure more than a few
parents were also dissapointed by the wind whisling down the aisles of
empty tables.
> total agreement about the free admission when the dealer crowd thins out
> like that. On the other hand, the big dealers, who buy multiple tables and
> who attract the big money, may be the cause of a show ending up in the
> black, as opposed to in the red, sort of a necessary evil when setting up
> the bourse protocol.
All it takes is a census on Saturday at 11AM to identify the worst
offenders that hit the road ridiculously early. I don't really know
how to punish them except by giving them lousy tables in the back of
the hall at subsequent shows if they insist on leaving on Friday
afternoon. That way the show still at least *looks* full instead of
staring at the sea of empties that hits you in the face as you enter
the show on Saturday, but it still doesn't solve the root problem.
> Kevin Foley has tried to wield a heavy hand in this
> regard, with mixed results at best.
I'm not familiar with that. What has he done?
Mr. Jaggers
Among his show duties he manages the Chicago International, MidAmerica and
several other big shows in the Midwest. He once personally promised me that
he would hold dealers' feet to the fire re early departure. There's always
an excuse and a threat to badmouth the show if indulgences are not
forthcoming, so his hands are somewhat tied.
James
reality
>
> Dealer costs are bad enough, let alone a 5k "cover charge" to be paid in
> advance, often weeks, months, or even years in advance. They would get no
> interest on their money for the duration that it was tied up. Dealers would
> have to stand in line with their inventory in tow to leave, to make sure
> their attendance was duly noted. Too many mistakes can be made at show
> teardown, as everyone, including show organizers, are extremely fatigued.
> Show teardown brings greater vulerability to thieves as well. How many
> lawsuits would ensue from dealers who claimed that they were there at the
> end, but not counted? Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't you volunteer to
> take care of the bookkeeping at teardown of a major U.S. coin convention,
> then report back to these pages afterward?
>
> James
It's not like the show ends at 10PM on a Sunday. It's Saturday at
5PM. Most of those guys can break down a booth in less than an hour,
package the items to be shipped, and be at dinner by between 7 and
8PM. IMO they're just too slack to do so and could basically care
less about the collectors that ultimately pad their pockets.
I mean, why even have a show if for the most part it's come down to a
day and a half dealer event during the middle of the week?
reality
> reality wrote:
> >> Kevin Foley has tried to wield a heavy hand in this
> >> regard, with mixed results at best.
>
> > I'm not familiar with that. What has he done?
>
> Among his show duties he manages the Chicago International, MidAmerica and
> several other big shows in the Midwest. He once personally promised me that
> he would hold dealers' feet to the fire re early departure. There's always
> an excuse and a threat to badmouth the show if indulgences are not
> forthcoming, so his hands are somewhat tied.
>
> James
So in the end it really just boils down to petty politics by lazy
slackers and lying liars.
Mr. Jaggers
I think it's called "skimming the cream."
> I mean, why even have a show if for the most part it's come down to a
> day and a half dealer event during the middle of the week?
It might be instructive to ask dealers at a show what their plans and
motivations are, but it could also get you referred to show security by the
hotheads. The more rational heads might explain that to tarry through the
final Saturday hours of a show, a time period that draws a disproportionate
number of looky-loos, means one additional night at the hotel, a more
inconvenient flight, a lost opportunity to set up at a Sunday-only show the
same weekend, or any one of several other incentives to leave early. I
don't like it either, but I also don't like rudeness, slabbing, BSing,
overgrading, lying, or overpricing, and guess what? It still happens. In
spite of it all, coin life is good!
James
Mr. Jaggers
Oh, probably. But find me an enterprise where that is not true. I'll give
you 24 hours.
James
dsybok
saw a lot more empty tables than even the past 3 or 4 shows. I agree that
they should not permit ANY dealer to pack up before show end or they should
not be allowed to show the following year.
D
reality
So what? Hobbies are supposed to be a fun passtime for the
collector. Not political footballs for the nitwits that are
supposedly the service providers that support the collector. Those
concepts are what's missing here, apparently.
Mr. Jaggers
Dealers are not in business to support me. Dealers are in business to
support themselves. If they can support themselves without supporting me,
in the manner to which they have become accustomed, and many of them can and
do, well, c'est la guerre. Even though I am now in a position to go to
shows on weekdays, the dealers I do most of my business with are the ones
who stick around through the final day. TDR is one of them, bless his
heart. I don't need a full complement of dealers waiting on me to be happy
in the hobby, just a faithful core cadre of trusted souls who often bring
coins I need to a show, and I have that. The political football players can
KMA. I love coins. I love collecting. That, in a nutshell, is "so what?"
James
Ira
Hi all. I was at the show, got in for dealer day on Wednesday, but
needed to get my case and leave Sat. at 9AM to catch the shuttle to
LAX.
For me, Long Beach was the best show I've had all year. Not only did I
sell the material I couldn't sell on eBay, but I made some excellent
purchases for inventory and want lists. Learned my fiend Jim O'Donnel,
a specialist in rare date US coins, had suffred a seizure and passed
away days before the show. There appeared to be lower end raw business
by the general public and high end ((multi-thousand $$ and above)
sales in clear evidence, but middle of the road coins, slabbed and
raw, had sluggish sales. Baltimore is nearly 2 months away..hope I
have enough inventory to tide me over.
Ira
Mr. Jaggers
I have a few Jim O'Donnell coins in my collection. May he rest in peace.
James
som...@some.domain
wish i had asked in advance, but i did ok anyway.
som...@some.domain
som...@some.domain
>On Sep 22, 1:05=A0pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>> >>> Sorry, thought you might have guessed it's Tom Reynolds.
>>
>> >>> James
>>
>> >> actually hang around to the bitter end.
>>
>> >> Of course, as the OP pointed out, around 1/4 of the tables weren't
>> >> even there on Saturday including the losers such as Superior and
>> >> Heritage along with the other loser dealers who have given the
>>
>> The big-name dealers do not cater to the "general public" even when they =
>are
>> manning their tables. =A0You will never see them with two or three cases =
>of
>> coins in 2x2s or even slabs tightly packed wall to wall. =A0Any coins the=
>y
>> have are always in boxes and available only to big shots who they know ar=
>e
>> strong buyers. =A0They're always on their cellphones and computers wheeli=
>ng
>> and dealing when they're not hustling material from other dealers.
>
>And not every dealer that high tailed it on Friday afternoon are so-
>called "big name". IMO they're just slackers. BTW, why even bother
>with a table to begin with if all you're doing is insider trading with
>the other sharks? Just carry a briefcase in with your crap that you
>want to "wheel and deal" and hire security for a half hour to escort
>you to and from your car. That has to cost WAY less than a table at
>Long Beach.
>
>>
>> >> If they are going to insist on charging full price admission on
>> >> Saturday then they should cut the crap and force dealers to stay till
>> >> jerkoffs who leave early the worst tables in the back of the hall
>> >> show
>> >> and all that's left are dust bunnies and empty tables at the first
>> >> embarrassment to the hobby.
>>
>> Yes, it is, and Saturday has now become the new Sunday, hasn't it? =A0I'm=
> in
>
>Which is even sadder than it used to be when you think about it. Most
>people I know have a day job where they earn money to pay for
>discretionary purchases such as their hobby, and don't have the luxury
>of being able to take a day off during the week just to go to a coin
>show when the dealers might actually still be there. Most normal
>people with real jobs tend to have to go to events like that on the
>weekend. Also there is a nice little Young Numismatist program at
>Long Beach that is held on Saturday, so I'm sure more than a few
>parents were also dissapointed by the wind whisling down the aisles of
>empty tables.
>
>> total agreement about the free admission when the dealer crowd thins out
> and
>> who attract the big money, may be the cause of a show ending up in the
>> black, as opposed to in the red, sort of a necessary evil when setting up
>
>All it takes is a census on Saturday at 11AM to identify the worst
>offenders that hit the road ridiculously early. I don't really know
>how to punish them except by giving them lousy tables in the back of
>the hall at subsequent shows if they insist on leaving on Friday
>afternoon. That way the show still at least *looks* full instead of
>staring at the sea of empties that hits you in the face as you enter
>the show on Saturday, but it still doesn't solve the root problem.
>
>> Kevin Foley has tried to wield a heavy hand in this
>> regard, with mixed results at best.
>
>I'm not familiar with that. What has he done?
the friend i went with on saturday gave up a day of time and a half. he's a
pharmacist and it cost him $1050 in missed wages. the only way he could
justify that was by going to a track meet that 2 of his high school aged kids
were entered in.
he made out, though. both kids got medals, (a 5th and a 6th place) and he got
a load of good stuff for his collection. i got a ride and good company. the
track meet didn't do much for me, but it was a beautiful day and i enjoyed the
travel in the inland empire.
som...@some.domain
som...@some.domain
and ray bans.....
som...@some.domain
>On Sep 20, 9:16=A0pm, some...@some.domain wrote:
>> we went to the last day today. arriving at noon, about 1/4 of the dealers=
> were
>> gone. even including those, there were very few out of state dealers. the=
>re
>> were some major sellers with a lot of material. prices seemed high and sl=
>abs
>> were about 50/50 with raw. lots of material for dollar, large cent and 20
>.. too
>> many were market graded.
>> we found about a dozen large cents to fill holes. we were able to upgrade=
> 5
>> 1850's to au and brn uncs for short money. the replaced coins will go to =
>the
>> youngsters.
>> speaking of cents, everyone knew ira but no one had seen him. we had hope=
>d to
>> say hello and wish him well.
>> anyone else go today, or earlier?
>
>Hi all. I was at the show, got in for dealer day on Wednesday, but
>needed to get my case and leave Sat. at 9AM to catch the shuttle to
>LAX.
>
>For me, Long Beach was the best show I've had all year. Not only did I
>sell the material I couldn't sell on eBay, but I made some excellent
>purchases for inventory and want lists. Learned my fiend Jim O'Donnel,
>a specialist in rare date US coins, had suffred a seizure and passed
>away days before the show. There appeared to be lower end raw business
>by the general public and high end ((multi-thousand $$ and above)
>sales in clear evidence, but middle of the road coins, slabbed and
>raw, had sluggish sales. Baltimore is nearly 2 months away..hope I
>have enough inventory to tide me over.
>
>Ira
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:gb97a...@enews2.newsguy.com...
I haven't been to a large show in decades and reading here makes me feel I
haven't missed anything worthwhile. It sounds like there are too many
dealers at these shows who are so well off that their convenience trumps
all. You're right about being content to enjoy the collection we have and
to build on it at OUR convenience.
Ken Barr
[snip]
> Learned my fiend Jim O'Donnel,
> a specialist in rare date US coins, had suffred a seizure and passed
> away days before the show.
Sorry to hear about Jim ... he was always a friendly,
helpful guy to me both as a dealer and as a bourse chairman.
His medical condition was long-standing, and many of us
were always on the lookout for problems with him at a show.
He had some difficulties at a Santa Clara show a few years
ago, but his tablemate quickly recognized the symptoms and
medical personnel at the show were able to help him.
I'll be sure to raise a toast to him the first Saturday
in May next year ... (Kentucky Derby Day, for those not
familiar with one of Jim's other hobbies ...).
--
Ken Barr Numismatics k...@kenbarr.com
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 (souvenir cards, MPC, Hickey Bros tokens)
408-272-3247 Next show: Merced September 13 (tentative, no table)
reality
Coin dealers aren't in business to support the hobby? I never knew
that.
and
> do, well, c'est la guerre. Even though I am now in a position to go to
> shows on weekdays, the dealers I do most of my business with are the ones
> who stick around through the final day. TDR is one of them, bless his
> heart. I don't need a full complement of dealers waiting on me to be happy
> in the hobby, just a faithful core cadre of trusted souls who often bring
> coins I need to a show, and I have that. The political football players can
> KMA. I love coins. I love collecting. That, in a nutshell, is "so what?"
>
> James
I understand where you're coming from James, but OTOH it never ceases
to amaze me that people believe it is an acceptable practice in the
coin business for certain dealers to be able to regularly give the
finger to collectors without consequence.
But I guess since for the most part coin dealers are smug ripoff
artists who only care about collectors when it comes stealing their
coins for 25 cents on the dollar, apparently many coin collectors have
just become numb to the entire experience, and they have learned to
accept the fact that they are generally reviled by most dealers as
nuisances who occasionally need to be dealt with only as a necessary
evil. Maybe that's why the collecting public for the most part seems
willing to accept attending a half empty coin show on the last day
without a whimper of protest. Very, very sad.
reality
That sums it up perfectly.
> You're right about being content to enjoy the collection we have and
> to build on it at OUR convenience.
Good idea.
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:gbbgr...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> leave early are generally not the ones I care about anyway. Even
> when they are there, at the beginning of a show, they are doing
> $100,000+ deals, and don't have much time anyway for somebody
> looking for, say, a 1921-S half dollar in Fine-12. They certainly
> are not interested in my VG trade-in coin.
>
>> But I guess since for the most part coin dealers are smug ripoff
>> artists who only care about collectors when it comes stealing their
>> coins for 25 cents on the dollar, apparently many coin collectors
>> have
>> just become numb to the entire experience, and they have learned to
>> accept the fact that they are generally reviled by most dealers as
>> nuisances who occasionally need to be dealt with only as a
>> necessary
>> evil. Maybe that's why the collecting public for the most part
>> seems
>> willing to accept attending a half empty coin show on the last day
>> without a whimper of protest. Very, very sad.
>
> these pages, we may not approve the system 100% (find me a system of
> any kind that we approve 100%), so the strategy then becomes
> figuring out how to game the system. Yes, it is quite troubling to
> hear of, or worse yet, be victimized by, the 25c-on-the-dollar
> predators, who normally have two sets of grading standards to boot.
> Yes, we can look at a half-empty show as a kick in the teeth
> courtesy of the high rollers who deign not to favor us with their
> presence. But as I have said above, we can just as well view that
> same show as half full, or better yet, in the spirit of "look at all
> the dealers who are here, maybe one of them has a that 21-S half in
> Fine-12 I've been looking for." You seem to be disturbed by empty
> space in the primo floor area of a show, and I will not try to
> second-guess your motivation. I have become oblivious to it,
> focusing my sights on what lies beyond. That appears to be what the
> OP did, and he seemed pretty ecstatic over what he accomplished with
> a skeleton crew of dealers on a Satuday afternoon. In over half a
> century of collecting, I've learned that baying at the moon is
> unproductive. Likewise is the Polyanna approach. Is it possible
> that the truth lies somewhere in between?"
Something else to consider: I don't know what the profit margins are
for those who stage the exhibits, but the early outs paid in full for
their tables and in doing so help to make coin exhibitions a viable
business. While In terms of attracting attendees it would be better
if they stayed until closing, most shows would suffer financially if
the high rollers didn't plunk down for their tables and stayed away,
or just walked the floor and met in a corner with their wares. So to
an extent, they help make coin shows possible for the plebes. I do
like the idea of keeping a list of them and putting them in the back
next time. That's probably the most you can do to penalize them.
note.boy
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> note.boy wrote:
>> "reality" <realit...@ausi.com> wrote in message
>> news:fb29fae4-dba3-4d2b...@i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 20, 8:32 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>>> some...@some.domain wrote:
>>>> <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>>>>> some...@some.domain wrote:
>>>>>> we went to the last day today. arriving at noon, about 1/4 of the
>>>>>> of state dealers. there were some major sellers with a lot of
>>>>>> material. prices seemed high and slabs were about 50/50 with raw.
>>>>>> lots of material for dollar, large cent and 20 dollar gold
>>>>>> too many were market graded.
>>>>>> we found about a dozen large cents to fill holes. we were able to
>>>>>> coins will go to the youngsters.
>>>>>> speaking of cents, everyone knew ira but no one had seen him. we
>>>>>> anyone else go today, or earlier?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> James
>>>
>>>> what is his whole name, james? or co name? if he two cases of large
>>>> cents and
>>>> half cents, i bought 2 coins from him. middle back third of the
>>>> bourse? older
>>>> heavyset white hair, nice guy?
>>>> this guy had a two cent piece i almost sold the farm for. it was a
>>>> really well
>>>> struck small motto, red in protected places.
>>>
>>>
>>> James
>>
>> actually hang around to the bitter end.
>>
>> Of course, as the OP pointed out, around 1/4 of the tables weren't
>> even there on Saturday including the losers such as Superior and
>> Heritage along with the other loser dealers who have given the general
>>
>> If they are going to insist on charging full price admission on
>> Saturday then they should cut the crap and force dealers to stay till
>> jerkoffs who leave early the worst tables in the back of the hall that
>> and all that's left are dust bunnies and empty tables at the first and
>> embarrassment to the hobby.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the organiser should charge a fee for those who want to wind
>> up early, $5,000? Billy
>
>
> James
>
A deposit cheque is taken by the organisers at the start of the show, those
still around at the end get it back. Billy
Mr. Jaggers
Would you want to stand in a line of 150-200 dealers, with your inventory in
tow, having to show your ID, sign off, and wait for a clerk to find your
check, then pack the check away in an already-locked case that is probably
bungee-corded onto a dolly? At one-half minute per dealer (try to pass
through any protocol that quickly and let us know how you came out), that
could be an hour-and-a-half gig, dog-tired and on your feet, after spending
three days or more at a show. It's far worse than having to stay after
school, and that would be for being one of the good guys.
James
som...@some.domain
>are generally not the ones I care about anyway. Even when they are there,
>at the beginning of a show, they are doing $100,000+ deals, and don't have
>much time anyway for somebody looking for, say, a 1921-S half dollar in
>Fine-12. They certainly are not interested in my VG trade-in coin.
>
>> artists who only care about collectors when it comes stealing their
>> coins for 25 cents on the dollar, apparently many coin collectors have
>> just become numb to the entire experience, and they have learned to
>> accept the fact that they are generally reviled by most dealers as
>> nuisances who occasionally need to be dealt with only as a necessary
>> evil. Maybe that's why the collecting public for the most part seems
>> willing to accept attending a half empty coin show on the last day
>> without a whimper of protest. Very, very sad.
>
>pages, we may not approve the system 100% (find me a system of any kind that
>we approve 100%), so the strategy then becomes figuring out how to game the
>system. Yes, it is quite troubling to hear of, or worse yet, be victimized
>by, the 25c-on-the-dollar predators, who normally have two sets of grading
>standards to boot. Yes, we can look at a half-empty show as a kick in the
>teeth courtesy of the high rollers who deign not to favor us with their
>presence. But as I have said above, we can just as well view that same show
>as half full, or better yet, in the spirit of "look at all the dealers who
>are here, maybe one of them has a that 21-S half in Fine-12 I've been
>looking for." You seem to be disturbed by empty space in the primo floor
>area of a show, and I will not try to second-guess your motivation. I have
>become oblivious to it, focusing my sights on what lies beyond. That
>appears to be what the OP did, and he seemed pretty ecstatic over what he
>accomplished with a skeleton crew of dealers on a Satuday afternoon. In
>over half a century of collecting, I've learned that baying at the moon is
>unproductive. Likewise is the Polyanna approach. Is it possible that the
>truth lies somewhere in between?"
>
>
>
well, restrained ecstasy, anyway. we are a bit old to be damcing in the
aisles. i certainly did better at this show because the dealers that DID stay
were there because they wanted my trade. three guys who don't know me from any
other elderly buyer took the time to show me what they had and seemed to
actually care about my needs.
what was really great was the guy who got the smaller sale was as polite as
the guy who got the big sale. they were spread out, so there was no shared
awareness of me. perhaps it was a slow day, sales were poor, or maybe my hope
that large cent sellers are more sensitive to the quirky bunch who love the
large cents is true.
i like buying live. fleabay and mail just ain't the same.
i have a 21s if you're still looking. you got my email.
Mr. Jaggers
Statistically, the big shots who leave early normally take multiple tables
in primo bourse real estate, and they are charged really big bucks for doing
so. There are a ton of shows that would collapse immediately without their
revenue. I'd rather go into a show and find them gone than to know that
their refusal to stay until the end caused the show not to happen at all.
Punishing them by exiling them to the location where the cheap seats are
won't solve the problem. The smaller-time dealers can't afford the high-end
locations, so nobody would occupy the primo tables, and the show would be
deprived of the high-end income required to finance such an event.
Sometimes parasites actually do some good, and this is one of those times.
Symbiosis, I believe it is called.
James
Mr. Jaggers
Listen, if anybody bad-mouths us old-timers, I'll whack him with my cane,
just as soon as I untangle this shawl and get out of this rocking chair, the
whippersnapper, goldurn his eyes. What was the question, again?
i certainly did better at this show because the dealers that
> DID stay
> were there because they wanted my trade. three guys who don't know me
> from any
> other elderly buyer took the time to show me what they had and seemed
> to
> actually care about my needs.
So, it sounds as if it took only three dealers to make that show for you.
That's the way it usually is for me. I can go to a show where there are 200
tables and spend all my time (and money) at three or four.
> what was really great was the guy who got the smaller sale was as
> polite as
> the guy who got the big sale. they were spread out, so there was no
> shared
> awareness of me. perhaps it was a slow day, sales were poor, or maybe
> my hope
> that large cent sellers are more sensitive to the quirky bunch who
> love the
> large cents is true.
I've never met a copper guy I didn't like. A couple of them are a bit
flaky, but then, so am I.
> i like buying live. fleabay and mail just ain't the same.
> i have a 21s if you're still looking. you got my email.
Thanks, I just used that as an example of a generic "collector coin" to
clarify my position.
James
som...@some.domain
snipped because it was too long.
>>>
>> well, restrained ecstasy, anyway. we are a bit old to be damcing in
>> the
>> aisles.
>
>Listen, if anybody bad-mouths us old-timers, I'll whack him with my cane,
>just as soon as I untangle this shawl and get out of this rocking chair, the
>whippersnapper, goldurn his eyes. What was the question, again?
>
urine sample!
>i certainly did better at this show because the dealers that
>> DID stay
>> were there because they wanted my trade. three guys who don't know me
>> from any
>> other elderly buyer took the time to show me what they had and seemed
>> to
>> actually care about my needs.
>
>So, it sounds as if it took only three dealers to make that show for you.
>That's the way it usually is for me. I can go to a show where there are 200
>tables and spend all my time (and money) at three or four.
yeah huh, the guys who deal in my interests usually have more than one
coin for my needs. i try to look at everyone's display, but tbh, i blow past
the moderns, the dollars only and reluctantly, the old gold dealers.
the exhibits seemed lackluster if that was all there were. 2 tables of
whatever. did not grab my attention.
>
>> what was really great was the guy who got the smaller sale was as
>> polite as
>> the guy who got the big sale. they were spread out, so there was no
>> shared
>> awareness of me. perhaps it was a slow day, sales were poor, or maybe
>> my hope
>> that large cent sellers are more sensitive to the quirky bunch who
>> love the
>> large cents is true.
>
>I've never met a copper guy I didn't like. A couple of them are a bit
>flaky, but then, so am I.
>
>> i like buying live. fleabay and mail just ain't the same.
>> i have a 21s if you're still looking. you got my email.
>
>Thanks, I just used that as an example of a generic "collector coin" to
>clarify my position.
>
>James
>
>
to quote quin, flaky though he be, he does well here in lower uncton.
good generic coin to pick! i keep buying walker keys when i see good value.
i did manage to quit at a dozen 38d's.
som...@some.domain
Mr. Jaggers
I wonder if we're talking about the same dealers. The ones who leave early
are generally not the ones I care about anyway. Even when they are there,
at the beginning of a show, they are doing $100,000+ deals, and don't have
much time anyway for somebody looking for, say, a 1921-S half dollar in
Fine-12. They certainly are not interested in my VG trade-in coin.
> But I guess since for the most part coin dealers are smug ripoff
> artists who only care about collectors when it comes stealing their
> coins for 25 cents on the dollar, apparently many coin collectors have
> just become numb to the entire experience, and they have learned to
> accept the fact that they are generally reviled by most dealers as
> nuisances who occasionally need to be dealt with only as a necessary
> evil. Maybe that's why the collecting public for the most part seems
> willing to accept attending a half empty coin show on the last day
> without a whimper of protest. Very, very sad.
As Ira has told me in numerous private conversations, as well as in these
pages, we may not approve the system 100% (find me a system of any kind that
we approve 100%), so the strategy then becomes figuring out how to game the
system. Yes, it is quite troubling to hear of, or worse yet, be victimized
by, the 25c-on-the-dollar predators, who normally have two sets of grading
standards to boot. Yes, we can look at a half-empty show as a kick in the
teeth courtesy of the high rollers who deign not to favor us with their
presence. But as I have said above, we can just as well view that same show
as half full, or better yet, in the spirit of "look at all the dealers who
are here, maybe one of them has a that 21-S half in Fine-12 I've been
looking for." You seem to be disturbed by empty space in the primo floor
area of a show, and I will not try to second-guess your motivation. I have
become oblivious to it, focusing my sights on what lies beyond. That
appears to be what the OP did, and he seemed pretty ecstatic over what he
accomplished with a skeleton crew of dealers on a Satuday afternoon. In
over half a century of collecting, I've learned that baying at the moon is
unproductive. Likewise is the Polyanna approach. Is it possible that the
truth lies somewhere in between?"
James
George D
/snip/
>
> Statistically, the big shots who leave early normally take multiple tables
> in primo bourse real estate, and they are charged really big bucks for doing
> so. There are a ton of shows that would collapse immediately without their
> revenue. I'd rather go into a show and find them gone than to know that
> their refusal to stay until the end caused the show not to happen at all.
> Punishing them by exiling them to the location where the cheap seats are
> won't solve the problem. The smaller-time dealers can't afford the high-end
> locations, so nobody would occupy the primo tables, and the show would be
> deprived of the high-end income required to finance such an event.
> Sometimes parasites actually do some good, and this is one of those times.
> Symbiosis, I believe it is called.
>
> James
>
>
How about this for a suggestion. Anybody that leaves early must notify the chairman in
advance of their intention. Those tables are than reallocated to the remaining dealers and
any tables not used be sold at a reduced rate to local dealers who can't afford to pay
full boat.
I know this would require more work and the table plan would than be useless but who knows
the local small dealers may just have that 21s VF you are looking for.
George D
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take
everything you have.
-Thomas Jefferson
reality
Great idea! Those tables should be re-allocated on Saturdays for free
as abandonded coin dealing real estate to the local coin club's small
time dealers and so-called "pocket dealers", who really care about the
hobby, to use as they wish.
Those real coin people would be a major contrast to the sorry excuses
known as the "major dealers" that abandon shows on Friday afternoon
after they whore the show out for their own sad profiteering and then
cast the true hobby to the gutter.
Excellent!
Ken Barr
<ofhCk.49031$Mh5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, George D
<geo...@arizona.somewhere> wrote:
[snip]
> How about this for a suggestion. Anybody that leaves early must notify
> the chairman in
> advance of their intention. Those tables are than reallocated to the
> remaining dealers and
> any tables not used be sold at a reduced rate to local dealers who
> can't afford to pay
> full boat.
>
> I know this would require more work and the table plan would than be
> useless but who knows
> the local small dealers may just have that 21s VF you are looking for.
I tried this as Bourse Chairman of the San Jose Coin
Club show back in the 1990's and it was a Dismal Failure.
It was (and still is) a 100=plus table Friday-Saturday-Sunday
show, with many of the bigger and/or more distant (i. e., East
Coast) deelers bugging out by Saturday afternoon.
The first year I tried it, I offered all the local deelers
who claimed that they couldn't afford the Big Show a
Sunday-only table for $50, about what was being charged for
a one-day local show at that time. I had two deelers sign up.
The second year I tried it, I offered all the local deelers
who claimed that they couldn't afford the Big Show a
Sunday-only table for FREE. I had zero deelers sign up.
The third year I didn't bother ...
Even the local deelers know that most of the business at
a koin show is done either on setup day or the first public
day, and much of the rest of the show is low volume.
--
Ken Barr Numismatics k...@kenbarr.com
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 (souvenir cards, MPC, Hickey Bros tokens)
408-272-3247 Next show: Sacramento 10/3 (tentative, no table)
Mr. Jaggers
Is the era of the three-day show coming to an end? Or do you think it's
true that there's a 3-day crowd and a one-day crowd, and ne'er the twain
shall meet?
James
note.boy
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
If I was a big time dealer my flunky would stand in line not me so the
length of the queue would be of no importance.
The cheque could be ripped up thus removing the requirement for it to be
packed away.
If you really want to remove these "obstacles" the cheques could be ripped
up by the organisers and posted to the dealers, no queues or packing
involved. Billy
Mr. Jaggers
It still makes you both late for dinner. Or the plane. And just where are
you going to go and wait for him, with your cartful of inventory, all by
yourself?
> The cheque could be ripped up thus removing the requirement for it to
> be packed away.
Tell that to the corporate bean counter.
> If you really want to remove these "obstacles" the cheques could be
> ripped up by the organisers and posted to the dealers, no queues or
> packing involved. Billy
See above. And you still haven't addressed the issue of "checkout."
James