Numismatics has changed since the late 90s...
Jim Light
I remember when I was an active collector that the value of a coin did
not depend on the coin grading service that was used. Now everything
has changed. Many collectors won't even consider purchasing a coin
unless it has been slabbed by one of the major coin certification
companies (PCGS, NGC, ANACS). What happened to doing your own grading?
That is how one becomes a better coin grader. I am having trouble
selling some very nice coins simply because they have not been
slabbed. But it seems I will have no choice....
Could anybody here describe the benefits of using one service over
another? How does this impact the value of the coin?
Thank you!
Jim Light.
note.boy
"Jim Light" <deja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f8c3a41c-b15a-4788...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
The slabbing of coins serves no purpose but to part gullible collectors from
more of their cash, in the UK it's practically unknown, slabbing that is,
but a UK company has recently started to slab UK coins, I hope that they go
bust very very soon.
UK collectors have managed very well for hundreds of years with a very small
number of grades to describe coins so we don't need all that MS nonsense.
Billy
reality
PCGS, NGC, ANACS in that order of acceptance and value added to the
price of an entombed coin, on a per gram of plastic basis.
Frank Provasek
It's gone from "buy the coin, not the slab" to "buy the slab, not the
coin" The idea was that people no longer need to learn to grade, and
the grading companies benefit from an ignorant collector base, which
now insists that
most coins be slabbed. Many younger collectors under 35 now consider
it fraud when a dealer grades his own coins!! Ebay, which has about a
90% share of the online coin market, puts severe restrictions on
selling raw coins or "unapproved" slabs, threatening to report ANA
members who grade raw coins according to ANA standards "to the ANA and/
or law enforcement."
Recently appearing excellent fake coins from China in fake PCGS,
ANACS and NGC slabs have really spooked the market, but may have a
beneficial effect of forcing collectors to learn basic grading and
authentication, and to realize that even if a coin is certified, it is
important to buy from a trusted source.
--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES www.frankcoins.com
http://myworld.ebay.com/frankcoins Texas Auction License
11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - Full Time Since 1991
RF
news:02ab607d-4bec-4a37...@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
>Ebay, which has about a 90% share of the online coin market, puts
>severe restrictions on selling raw coins or "unapproved" slabs,
>threatening to report ANA
members who grade raw coins according to ANA standards "to the ANA
and/or law enforcement."
You're lying again, Fwankie.
Now tell us how it comes to pass that you lost your "Power Seller"
status again.
Was it wild, baseless accusations about eBay on their boards?
A vast right (or left) wing conspiracy?
Your own stupidity?
Ivan
oly
> You are an idiot
No, RF has a valid question. Frank P. comes here and attempts to sell
coins, or to bring attention to his wares for sale elsewhere. If he
has lost his power seller status on ebay, it is well worthwhile that
somebody here ask why. Frank's on-going failure to respond suggests
something has gone awry.
oly
Bill Krummel
"Jim Light" <deja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f8c3a41c-b15a-4788...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
PCGS has the most buyer confidence right now followed by NGC, then ANACS.
Be aware that the coins that you submit may not get the results you would
expect. As an example, I purchased six raw early commemorative halfs at the
local coin club show about two years ago. The six I purchased were from a
larger group of coins. All coins were offered to me at wholesale MS63
prices and the six I chose to buy were the six I thought were Ms65s. Three
came back as MS65s, including the Lincoln/Illinois and that one coin made
the overall deal a good one for me. The Maryland came back a 62 and I still
see the coin as a 65 and a candidate for an upgrade. An Oregon and the
Stone Mountain came back unslabbed with the notation of being cleaned.
After much searching by my manager and myself, we found the problem with the
Oregon. Holding the coin at a precise angle and under proper lighting
(could see under incandescent but not flourescent) we both could spot
several hairlines in the lower left quadrant of the obverse. It appeared
that at some point in the past someone had gently swiped the coin with a
handkerchief or cloth, perhaps to remove some fleck of material that was
resting on the coin. Unfortunately, the gentle swipe still managed to put
almost undetectable hairlines on the coin. It was still a beautiful coin
and personally I would think such a minor flaw could be market graded down
one point and it would have been interesting to see how ANACS would have net
graded the coin . However, I sold the coin on eBay with full disclosure and
took a hit. We have yet to find anything on the Stone Mountain that would
indicate a cleaning and one of these days I may resubmit it, hoping for a
grade. Still, I have to think I am missing something, since an experienced
grader has rejected the coin and I am not experienced to a great degree with
uncirculated coins.
Bill
Frank Provasek
same group of coins was submitted to various grading services. Not
statistically valid, but shows the disagreement even among the so-
called reputable services.
http://www.frankcoins.com/chart.jpg
Bill Krummel
> Here is an image of a chart from Coin World a few years back where the
> same group of coins was submitted to various grading services. Not
> statistically valid, but shows the disagreement even among the so-
> called reputable services.
>
> http://www.frankcoins.com/chart.jpg
To a degree, I can understand disagreement between professional graders.
The Lincoln-Illinois commemorative half that I submitted had enough surface
tics on it that it could have been graded a 63 just based on surface marks.
The luster was so blast and original, the coin could have been graded a 66
or better if based solely on luster. A third characteristic, the strike,
was not a problem and deserving at least a 65 if grade was based on strike
alone.
Now, a disagreement may easily occur when different graders place different
weights to these three aspects (surface marks, luster and strike) of a coin.
Bill
Jim Light
Bingo. You just illustrated why this whole thing is a scam that only
puts money into certification firms. Now they have every little coin
collecting noob thinking that unless it has a PCGS stamp on it, it
isn't worth a damn. This is crazyness.
If something doesn't change there won't be any REAL coin collectors 10
years from now.
Wookie
"Jim Light" <deja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:73572d29-0f1c-469a...@1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Michael Benveniste
> Bingo. You just illustrated why this whole thing is a scam that only
> puts money into certification firms. Now they have every little coin
> collecting noob thinking that unless it has a PCGS stamp on it, it
> isn't worth a damn. This is crazyness.
I'm just a hobbyist and sort of a type collector, but I think this
is grossly overstating the case. The major slabbing services are far
from perfect. The crackout game imposes an upward bias on grades.
The grade "guarantees" are weak. Some of the principals have other
business interests and models which make conflicts of interest
inevitable.
But for most of the coins _I_ buy, a major grading service slab does
do several things. First, it ensures and insures the authenticity
of the coin. Second, it verifies that the coin I thought I was
buying is, in fact, the coin I receive. Third, it's an initial
screen, albeit imperfect, for coin "problems" such as cleaning which
may not be obvious on a photograph.
Fourth, finally and perhaps least importantly, for the majority of
coins it's an independent opinion of the grade. I accept that this
isn't always the case for true rarities or for pedigreed coins. I
even accept the fact that the field isn't always level when it comes
to "harsh cleaning," "curation" and the like.
But unlike some, I don't see the pre-slab era as any sort of golden
age.
To see why, just open an issue of Coin World or Coinage and look at
the multi-page spreads selling "raw" coins. Then look at the fine
print, where the seller effectively disclaims the use of any grading
standards at all.
Even the old "name" grades are sales-oriented. An "about
uncirculated" coin isn't uncirculated, and an "about good" coin
isn't good. A "borderline uncirculated" coin is neither
uncirculated nor borderline. For new U.S. issues, a "choice"
uncirculated coin is only worth face value, and for NCLT a "gem"
grade indicates a cull.
Or, if you prefer, observe how coins magically seem to improve in
the owner's estimation from the time of purchase to the time of sale,
even if they've only had the coin a day or two. Collectors aren't
immune to this effect -- I've recorded my tendency to overgrade my
own coins several times in this forum.
But whether it's due to honest human bias or deliberate dishonesty,
all too often dealers buy coins based on one grade and then offer
them for sale claiming a higher grade.
Even with slabbed coins, when it comes time to sell, _every_ coin
I offer to a dealer is going to be a "low-end" example. Similarly,
_every_ coin offered is going to be "premium quality" and/or a
"crackout candidate." CAC, for example, openly acknowleges that it
will certify the majority of slabbed coins as "premium quality."
What I don't accept are substantive claims of value based on a
combination of biased grades and feel good price guides.
The slab grade offers a starting point for the negotiations. Those
people who also treat it as an endpoint will inevitably still end
up losing. Trying to reduce all of the subjective aspects of a
coin to a single number, even with the addition of alphabet soup
and/or asterisks, is just not a solvable problem and never will be.
> If something doesn't change there won't be any REAL coin
> collectors 10 years from now.
I _love_ loaded terms like "real collector."
By a "real collector," do you mean someone who has "paid their
tuition" by getting taken advantage of by shady trade partners?
If so, I sincerely hope you are right.
--
Michael Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification required)
Nid wif yn y swyddfa ar hyn o bryd. Anfonwch ar unrhyw waith ïw
gyfieithu.
reality
> "Jim Light" <dejavu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But unlike some, I don't see the pre-slab era as any sort of golden
> age.
Me either. IMO the "golden age" was basically a period where
dishonest dealers had a license to screw the average collector over by
selling them doctored crap.
> By a "real collector," do you mean someone who has "paid their
> tuition" by getting taken advantage of by shady trade partners?
> If so, I sincerely hope you are right.
The "shady trade partners" statement has a LOT of merit. For all of
their shortcomings at least slabs have removed significant risks for
the average collector of being taken advantage of by the basic
dishonest coin doctors that were more common than not during the pre-
slab era.
I have seen some old time collections come to light that included raw
coins purchased at coin shops in the 60s and 70s which were chock full
of cleaned and retoned copper, "UNCs" that were no more than dipped or
doctored sliders, cleaned coins, baked potato "toned coins", and faked
dates and mintmarks (especially 1916-D Mercury Dimes). Unfortunately,
many times those scam coins are the scarcer or key coins that couldn't
be found in circulation which the collector was forced to buy from a
coin shop to complete their sets.
Jim Light
And the slabs coming out of China are a-ok??? Nothing has changed my
friend.
Frank Provasek
>
> I have seen some old time collections come to light that included raw
> coins purchased at coin shops in the 60s and 70s which were chock full
> of cleaned and retoned copper, "UNCs" that were no more than dipped or
> doctored sliders, cleaned coins, baked potato "toned coins", and faked
> dates and mintmarks (especially 1916-D Mercury Dimes). Unfortunately,
> many times those scam coins are the scarcer or key coins that couldn't
> be found in circulation which the collector was forced to buy from a
> coin shop to complete their sets.
About 1995 a lady brought a big collection of her late father's coins
into our shop.
Five 1909-S-VDBs ALL will added mintmarks...the style and location
all incorrect.
A fake 1799 Bust dollar with the broken R in Liberty, a scary-good
fake, a three
legged nickel with the leg removed using a Dremmel. And about 25 $2½
and $5
Indians, and some gold dollars, all fakes with the proper gold
content, but worth only a
fraction of the numismatic value of genuine coins.
The paperwork included showed that these had been bought at flea
markets, pawn shops,
police auctions, unclaimed safe deposit box auctions in the 1970s and
1980s. Nothing that
looked like anything that been purchased at a legitimate coin store.
When we told her that almost all of the coins were fakes or
alterations, she was quite offended.
"My father was NOT STUPID and would NEVER have been fooled into buying
fakes"
She hastily left,
We heard later that she had visited all the other shops in Dallas-Fort
Worth, got the same answer,
and concluded that all coin dealers are crooks....
RF
>
>We heard later that she had visited all the other shops in Dallas-Fort
>Worth, got the same answer,
>and concluded that all coin dealers are crooks....
So Fwankie, you still haven't told us why you lost your "Power Seller"
status on eBay?
Too honest, perhaps?