What is it worth?
Juan
known Argentina KM-1 1883 10c MS-65. Population 2, the other one is
MS-64. Any idea what this might be worth?
Mr. Jaggers
There's a big difference between finest known and finest graded. World
coins tend not to get slabbed, especially by PCGS, so the slice of the
mintage represented by that pop report is vanishingly small. You can be
very sure that there are examples of that coin in the hands of collectors
that far surpass MS-65.
But you can value yours at any amount above $50.00 that makes you feel good.
Getting more than that from its sale, though, is quite doubtful.
James
Juan
wrote:
> Juan wrote:
> > I was cruising the PCGS pop lists and just found I own the finest
> > MS-64. Any idea what this might be worth?
>
> There's a big difference between finest known and finest graded.
That's why I qualified it with the PGCS pop list. :)
> World coins tend not to get slabbed, especially by PCGS, so the slice of the
> mintage represented by that pop report is vanishingly small. You can be
> very sure that there are examples of that coin in the hands of collectors
> that far surpass MS-65.
True, but there's always a difference between the collectors opinion
and the certified grade. :)
> But you can value yours at any amount above $50.00 that makes you feel good.
> Getting more than that from its sale, though, is quite doubtful.
That's what I thought. :)
Juan
wrote:
> > I was cruising the PCGS pop lists and just found I own the finest
> > MS-64. Any idea what this might be worth?
>
> There's a big difference between finest known and finest graded. World
> coins tend not to get slabbed, especially by PCGS, so the slice of the
> mintage represented by that pop report is vanishingly small. You can be
> very sure that there are examples of that coin in the hands of collectors
> that far surpass MS-65.
>
> But you can value yours at any amount above $50.00 that makes you feel good.
> Getting more than that from its sale, though, is quite doubtful.
>
> James
BTW, I also have an 1813 PTS-J 8 Reales NGC AU-50. I would think $600-
$700 is about right. Your opinion? :)
Juan
Mr. Jaggers
My catalog does not price these above XF ($150), and I don't have access to
enough information beyond that to justify an opinion as to its value. In
general, though, at this level, the cosmetics of the coin will have more to
do with its fungibility than its absolute sharpness.
James
Mr. Jaggers
> On Apr 10, 12:51 am, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com>
> wrote:
>> Juan wrote:
>>> I was cruising the PCGS pop lists and just found I own the finest
>>> knownArgentinaKM-1 1883 10c MS-65. Population 2, the other one is
>>> MS-64. Any idea what this might be worth?
>>
>> There's a big difference between finest known and finest graded.
>
> That's why I qualified it with the PGCS pop list. :)
>
>> World coins tend not to get slabbed, especially by PCGS, so the
>> slice of the mintage represented by that pop report is vanishingly
>> small. You can be very sure that there are examples of that coin in
>> the hands of collectors that far surpass MS-65.
>
> True, but there's always a difference between the collectors opinion
> and the certified grade. :)
I'd not go so far as to say "always." But the coins are what they are. The
Argentina 1883 10c is a very common coin, and the probability is quite high
of the existence of several raw high-grade examples of it being in
collections. If and when they are submitted for grading/slabbing, the
probability is quite high of several ending up in MS-67 slabs.
It is only meaningful to speak of "finest known" when dealing with a very
low known, absolute population.
James
Juan
Relying on catalog value is not a good idea. The latest two raw XF
examples of this coin I've seen hammered at $632.50 and a little over
$800 back in January. That value in Krause has not changed since 1994.
I don't think Krause updates values at all for most of the coins in
their catalogues...
Juan
Mr. Jaggers
Tom Michael, the KM market analyist, is single-handedly responsible for all
the prices in a stack of catalogs that now stands a foot and a half high.
The only way we'll see any change in that situation is for specialists to
offer their assistance, essentially for no pay. Perhaps you'd be able to
become a contributor?
Since you already knew the results of two auctions for coins similar to
yours, I am curious as to why you asked for my opinion.
James
Juan
wrote:
>
> Tom Michael, the KM market analyist, is single-handedly responsible for all
> the prices in a stack of catalogs that now stands a foot and a half high.
> The only way we'll see any change in that situation is for specialists to
> offer their assistance, essentially for no pay. Perhaps you'd be able to
> become a contributor?
Sure, I don't have a problem with that. Better yet, why not put
together a web-based system that allows contributors to provide this
kind of information?
> Since you already knew the results of two auctions for coins similar to
> yours, I am curious as to why you asked for my opinion.
I was interested to hear it.
Juan
Jud
Juan wrote:
> I don't think Krause updates values at all for most of the coins in
> their catalogues...
>
> Juan
It seems to me, and I may be wrong (often am), that KM values are re-
evaluated by country every few years. About 10 years ago they came up
with some more realistic 'real world' prices for New Zealand coins. I
don't believe that they have done so since then. IMHO
Bob F.
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:22cbac99-ab3d-465f...@f12g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
It would seem to me that an encyclopedic catalog like Kraus can't
possibly keep up with changes in prices for the thousands of coins it
lists.
That's why there are country specific catalogs like the Red Book and
Charlton.
oly
> "Jud" <numismat...@aol.com> wrote in message
Frankly, the wonder would be if you could find any market whatsoever
for a high-end minor coin of a country like Argentina. Based upon the
fact that Argentina has totally been through the financial wringer
four or five times since the 1950s, people there are lucky to eat
regularly - let alone pay a ridiculous price for an unimportant minor
coin.
With over two million of the 10 centavos minted (damn near three
million) at a survival rate of 1% there would still be about 28,000
coins in existence, which would be 27,500 more coins than there could
possibly be interested collectors.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
And for us world coin collectors trying to assemble a type set of Argentina,
we can be quite happy with a nice XF of this particular coin. Somebody paid
big bucks to have that coin slabbed, and it just must not have paid off for
him.
James
Bob F.
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ad659c2f-4d5e-4bd9...@b1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>Frankly, the wonder would be if you could find any market whatsoever
>for a high-end minor coin of a country like Argentina. Based upon the
>fact that Argentina has totally been through the financial wringer four
>or five times since the 1950s, people there are lucky to eat
>coin.
I've spent time in Argentina and the people's lives are not quite so
bleak as you think :)
Buenos Aires is a magnificent city, very beautiful and the populace
quite sophisticated.
But it is true that the Argentine currency suffered from hyperinflation
and has been devalued and even redenominated (the Austral replaced the
peso around 1986 only to be replaced by a new peso shortly thereafter.)
I have several old silver coins from there in addition to the coins I
scavenged from circulation from my trips there.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
FWIW, I have been to Southern Brazil, parts of Uruguai and Argentina
about fifteen years ago. Based upon what I have heard and read, the
2001 currency crisis in Argentina was a defining moment in that
country's history that has not yet been overcome - not by any means.
No rational Argentinian would trust paper money of any form. Most
citizens have been through the financial wringer.
Not that I wouldn't like to fly down to Argentina or Brazil and have a
couple of big churrascos. Washed down with good Uruguai beers.
oly
Bob F.
>No rational Argentinian would trust paper money of any form. Most
>citizens have been through the financial wringer.
That's been true in Argentina and Brasil for many years. Most people
prefer to keep their money in a strong currency like the US $, Euro or
Swiss franc, either under the mattress or in accounts denominated in
those currencies.
I was in Brasil during one of their periodic bouts of hyperinflation.
Since I was earning in dollars, it didn't hurt me at all but it was
interesting watching prices go up daily, even during the course of a
day.
The dollar was so strong that I could eat at the finest restaurants for
a pittance.
During that time they chose the expedient of lopping zeroes off their
currency and I still have some over-printed bills that went from 100,000
cruzados to 100 cruzados (or was it cruzieros, I forget now).
At the time, the people refused to use the minor coinage issued.
It was not uncommon to see coins in the street that even the poorest
people wouldn't bother to pick up.
Likewise the smallest denomination bills were worth about US$0.00001.
It had to cost more to print them then their face value.
The way Obama is increasing the Federal deficit, I suspect it won't be
long before that happens here.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
I agree with your last line; I feel that every single thing that the
Treasury has done since last September is sheer lunancy. There is not
one thing that has been done in the present financial emergency that
considers what will happen to the long-term purchasing power of the
U.S. dollar.
A big part of my trip to Brasil was to observe/study how people handle
systematic monetary inflation (my trip was sponsored by Rotary
International and they like exchange participants to give a plausible
reason being sent on the trip). My number one observation was that
life goes on. My number two observation was that the middle class
gets hit very very hard.
When I went in April/ May 1994, the only current metal coins were
handed out at the bank or currency exchange as a favor (often offered
in a candy dish or something like that) and the Brasileros considered
them a bit of a joke. During my month in Brasil, the exchange went
from 600 whatevers to the dollar to 1,600 whatevers to the dollar.
Most retailers increased their prices on/over Saturday night to Sunday
morning; at least prices of food didn't change every single day.
There was no Brasilero offering to pay 500 USD for a dime-sized silver
coin. For an accountant or mid-level banker, their salary was the
equivalent of $500 USD per month. Of course, that money went a lot
further than it would have in the U.S.A.
oly
Juan
> "Jud" <numismat...@aol.com> wrote in message
In the 21st century? This is a perfectly doable task. I'm just
surprised there is no standardized "prices realized" network so
auction houses, dealers and other vetted parties can help keep the
information current.
Juan
>
> Frankly, the wonder would be if you could find any market whatsoever
> for a high-end minor coin of a country like Argentina. Based upon the
> fact that Argentina has totally been through the financial wringer
> four or five times since the 1950s, people there are lucky to eat
> regularly - let alone pay a ridiculous price for an unimportant minor
> coin.
When was the last time you actually visited Argentina? 1950's?
> With over two million of the 10 centavos minted (damn near three
> million) at a survival rate of 1% there would still be about 28,000
> coins in existence, which would be 27,500 more coins than there could
> possibly be interested collectors.
Well, you know what they say about opinions. :)
Juan
Could be, but that happened long before I bought it from a dealer in
Puerto Rico, along with a number of pre-republic examples.
Juan
>
> That's been true in Argentina and Brasil for many years. Most people
> prefer to keep their money in a strong currency like the US $, Euro or
> Swiss franc, either under the mattress or in accounts denominated in
> those currencies.
These days that's happening in the US, with people preferring to keep
their currency in Euros, at least the smart ones that get out of the
country once in a while.
> I was in Brasil during one of their periodic bouts of hyperinflation.
> Since I was earning in dollars, it didn't hurt me at all but it was
> interesting watching prices go up daily, even during the course of a
> day.
> The dollar was so strong that I could eat at the finest restaurants for
> a pittance.
That's happened to me in Argentina as well, food's always cheap there.
The problem they're having is that the government is trying to rape
exporters by having them pay 35% or more in taxes on exports before
the goods even leave the country. But there's plenty of food being
grown.
> During that time they chose the expedient of lopping zeroes off their
> currency and I still have some over-printed bills that went from 100,000
> cruzados to 100 cruzados (or was it cruzieros, I forget now).
> At the time, the people refused to use the minor coinage issued.
> It was not uncommon to see coins in the street that even the poorest
> people wouldn't bother to pick up.
> Likewise the smallest denomination bills were worth about US$0.00001.
> It had to cost more to print them then their face value.
> The way Obama is increasing the Federal deficit, I suspect it won't be
> long before that happens here.
Lopping zero's off dollars? Nah. They'll just print more and sell them
to the Chinese.
Bob F.
"Juan" <fly...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:90f46aad-3600-4e70...@s28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> Well, you know what they say about opinions. :)
In your case, they say *PLONK*
Juan
>
> A big part of my trip to Brasil was to observe/study how people handle
> systematic monetary inflation (my trip was sponsored by Rotary
> International and they like exchange participants to give a plausible
> reason being sent on the trip). My number one observation was that
> life goes on. My number two observation was that the middle class
> gets hit very very hard.
That is very true. People adapt. But their thought patterns when it
comes to doing day to day business are totally different than ours,
and there's little or no long term planning because no one has a clue
what will happen in the long term. They complain about the government
stealing them blind, but look at what happened to Argentina -- they
had that thief Kirchner in power and then they put his wife in power.
Now they're paying for it, but it's all their own fault.
Mr. Jaggers
As long as you're not buried in that coin, everybody's a winner - except the
guy who paid to have it slabbed.
James
Mr. Jaggers
Good point. I suspect that catalog prices are the way they are at least in
part because too many heavy hitters have vested interest in their being what
they are.
There are, in fact, websites that can be consulted for auction records, and
they are often eye-openers.
James
oly
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are very kind, mon vieux. The OP just don't get it.
oly