Milwaukee neighborhoods eyeing seperate currency
stonej
Paul Ciszek
In article <7246cb65-a0df-4e5f...@f20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
stonej <sto...@mail.lib.msu.edu> wrote:
>http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2008/12/03/Neighborhoods_eyeing_separate_currency/UPI-76591228321311/
So, you can print notes that are denominated in a local currency, and
you can stamp out tokens that are redeemable for goods or services,
and you can even have your vending machines rigged to accept either
quarters or tokens, but according to an earlier discussion you cannot
stamp out metal disks that are denominated in a local currency.
What is the difference between a token that can be spent at a "fun
center", and a token that is worth an Ithaca Dollar?
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Mike Marotta
> So, you can print notes that are denominated in a local currency, and
> you can stamp out tokens that are redeemable for goods or services,
> and you can even have your vending machines rigged to accept either
> quarters or tokens, but according to an earlier discussion you cannot
> stamp out metal disks that are denominated in a local currency.
> What is the difference between a token that can be spent at a "fun
> center", and a token that is worth an Ithaca Dollar?
As the question is posed, literally, the answer is "Nothing." In
other words, as stated literally, I believe that US Law does allow you
to create metal tokens that are good for local paper currency. That
is not the same thing as minting coins that are currency, which is
violation of US Law.
However... realize that the US goverment has its own philosophers.
You might want to ask the people at NORFED how those philosophical
investigations are coming along.
Just to clear up a point, Ithaca's local currency are "Hours" not
dollars. Bay Bucks are not _dollars_. And so on.
http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/index.cfm?f...ion=Law18USC486
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
§ 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or
attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other
metal,
or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in
the
resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or
of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
more than five years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 709; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXIII,
Sec. 330016(1)(I), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)
Paul Ciszek
In article <ca4dab05-804e-41f3...@j11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
Mike Marotta <mer...@torchlake.com> wrote:
>
>Just to clear up a point, Ithaca's local currency are "Hours" not
>dollars. Bay Bucks are not _dollars_. And so on.
Right. You know that, I know that, the people issuing the local
currency know that, etc. But the article at the beginning of this
thread ends with:
"The Tribune said the currency proposals would be legal to implement as
long as the paper currency doesn't resemble federal bills and if
organizers don't create their own coinage system."
...implying that you cannot stamp bits of metal that serve the same
purpose as the local paper scrip that *is* legal.
Could you make decorative, moderately-hard-to-duplicate glass beads
and trade them as "Milwaukee Wampum"?
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Mike Marotta
> Could you make decorative, moderately-hard-to-duplicate glass beads
> and trade them as "Milwaukee Wampum"?
Well, that's an interesting idea! With modern methods, a lot can be
done with glass, perhaps coinlike in dimensions or like a silver art
bar, maybe a book of matches, something convenient. (Wampum was made
of shells, but the point stands.) Images could be engraved or etched
within or upon. They could be laminated or layered in colors. The only
limit is your own creativity. That said...
Among the problems would be the cash register.
We have all worked retail, stood behind a cash register, but I have
not done much of it and it was long ago. So, it had to be pointed out
by a merchant that our Bay Bucks, nice as they might be, presented a
basic problem: no place in the till for them. Then, they have to be
handled like checks and other miscellaneous papers, placed under the
cash tray. So, too, with the glass, just as with dollar coins, in
fact. Do they stack into rolls? How do you handle 10? String them?
Then what?
There is a reason why coins have not changed much really in 2500
years.
Mike M.
Michael E. Marott
4nj...@gmail.com
have seen the ways to keep these programs legal and give the clients
what they want. If the word of the above posted federal regulation
were taken literally every Chuck E. Cheese operator would be looking
at jail time. The main thing to remember is to make sure somewhere on
the token it is clearly stated something like "no cash value", "good
for x in trade", etc. Couple this with the name or logo of the issuing
authority and you should not get in trouble as long as you pretty much
follow the other guide lines covering size & appearance to real
circulating coinage.
It is promoted in the token industry that you are basicially setting
up your own currency system where the operator sets the rate of
exchange to the dollar (or what ever is the local currency at the
particular location). This gives the operators the flexability of
changing their prices in relation to dollars with out having to
reprogram all their machines. As it was mentioned in an earlier post,
just think how many fun center operators would be in violation of this
law. Not to mention car washes, laundromats, festival operators,
parking garages, casinos (if any use tokens any more) and all other
users of tokens that have a "exchange value" with in the operators
establishmsnts. Consider all the chambers of commerce and business
districts that have issued trade tokens for their locality. These are
not governmant entities but local "non profits". Even local
governments and authorities issue tokens in the form of bus, parking,
and transit tokens. These sure resemble a coinage system. Do these
local government issued tokens infringe upon the federal regulation
"banning" the use of "tokens" as a medium of exchange? I know of no
disclaimer or addendum in the code of federal regulations that has
allowances for this. All of these entities, and many more not
mentioned, have set up their own coinage system using tokens instead
of dollars. Why are they not going to jail? By stating on the token
the no cash value, good for x, or other similar disclaimer the
operators are claiming that the token is not competing with the dollar
as a legal tender currency, and thus they can issue the tokens or
script without violating the law of the land. This has been the SOP
for the 20+ years I have been in the minting trade and have not had
any problems.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, so check with your own legal advisor if
you have doubts or questions.
Sean Moffatt
President
Moffatt & Co. - Extreme Custom Minting
Paul Ciszek
In article <0ab8c1e1-0f72-4360...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
<4nj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>for x in trade", etc. Couple this with the name or logo of the issuing
>authority and you should not get in trouble as long as you pretty much
>follow the other guide lines covering size & appearance to real
>circulating coinage.
This could be an excuse to use shapes other than "round".
How hard is it to mint hexagons, rouleaux triangles, etc.?
note.boy
"Paul Ciszek" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ghjk4l$jd9$1...@reader1.panix.com...
The UK 3d 12 sided coin was circular until struck inside a 12 sided collar,
I'm not sure if this applies to the current 20p and 50p coins, are they
struck on circular blanks? Billy
4nj...@gmail.com
round coins as long as you have the right equipment and can figure out
the feed tooling to keep the blanks in proper orientation. The coining
collars, blanking, & feeding tooling cost more when compared to round
pieces. Currently we can automatically run squares, ingots, octagons,
and 11 sided, and we are currently building tooling for a scalloped
25mm coin.
It is interesting that the 12 sided 3p is mentioned as I have found
that 12 sides seems to be the minimum number of sides that can be run
with round blanks and still look acceptable. I made the 12 sided
Alderaan tokens with round blanks for the Star Wars Monopoly game
several years ago. On the same hand I could not get a recent 11-sided
coin to look good using a round blank, the corners just would not fill
in.
The 20p & 50p coins are made from shaped blanks, I have a 50p blank
and I saw a 20p blank at a show once. The 20p blanks are actually pre-
formed or "staked" with the "cartwheel" borders by a progressive tool
in the blanking press. A very cool idea I have been waiting to use on
a project some day.
Jud
Now, THIS is why I like this group! Very informative. Thanks Sean
Mike Marotta
> This could be an excuse to use shapes other than "round".
> How hard is it to mint hexagons, rouleaux triangles, etc.?
Eligi Consulting of Nepean, Ontario, is famous for their triangular $3
municipal tokens for the town of Vulcan, Alberta.
Their website is at www.eligi.ca and they tout their own efforts quite
well and the stories about their Municipal Trade Tokens go back to
1996, at least.
Scott Stevenson
wrote:
Unfortunately, I deleted Sean's message, so I can't reply directly
to him, but I wonder if the 11 sided token he tried to mint had sharp
corners. I know that in the case of the 3p, they switched to rounded
corners after a few years (once again, thanks to Tony Clayton for the
info).
take care,
Scott