Condition rarity vs numeric rarity
Scurvy Dog
An early 50s Franklin half MS65 FBL sold for over $20K - about the same price as
a late 1790s dollar in VF.
I don't think the Franklin has as much upside as the dollar.
Frankly I don't believe ANY Franklin half is worth that kind of dough.
That made me dig out some old Red Books and sure enough, those coins that are
actual rarities (low mintage) have outperformed the common dates.
Of course, the red Book didn't/doesn't list by MS grade/FBL.
So, for your 20 grand, which coin would you rather have???
Bruce Remick
"Scurvy Dog" <scurv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hn1hjc$gbv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
First, let me see if I can come up with $20 grand. I may have to sell one
of my MS70 Lincolns.
B.J.
> An early 50s Franklin half MS65 FBL sold for over $20K - about the same price as
> a late 1790s dollar in VF.
I'd much rather have the 1790s dollar. I'm happy with my unslabbed F
to AU Franklins, nicer versions of any of them wouldn't be a
significant improvement to my collection (from my view) -- but a 1790s
dollar would be something my collection doesn't have.
Scurvy Dog
"B.J." <bjher...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:55c9f610-794a-49aa...@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too am happy with my collection of circulated Franklins, which is about in the
same condition state as yours.
My local coin dealer let me root around thru his junk silver until I just about
filled my blue Whitman book with all but 1 or 2 key dates which I then got for
barely over melt on eBay.
Scurvy Dog
"Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:lYXkn.62070$1n5....@newsfe04.iad...
Selling one or two of those should put you on Easy Street. ;-)
Seriously though, irrespective of condition, I can't see how a modern coin like
the Lincoln cent with a mintage of over 100,000,000 can possibly be considered
"rare".
IMO condition rarity is a scam.
oly
This response addresses a number of non-hobby considerations and even
a few hobby considerations:
Both the Franklin and the 1790s dollars seem very very fully priced at
this point in time. Owning either one, the non-hobby factors/ things
to worry about would be the potential downside risk(s) of your
invested principal, and the liquidity risk (how long would it take to
sell without taking a big haircut), in the event that you would ever
need to sell the piece.
Since 20 grand is still fifteen troy ounces of gold (probably closer
to 16 or 17), one good question might be would you rather have a wool
sock full of gold for your hard-earned buck, or just a modest sliver
of real shiny silver???
More and more, those of us who audit loan portfolios are seeing people
who have a good "bread and butter" business that has turned very
marginal. Even more, many of these folks also have some smaller side
businesses (often run by their wives and/or children) that have turned
cancerous. These folks aren't going to be spending on toys like they
did 2001-2007. No sirree. If this present reflationary "green
shoots" don't materialize, one big reason will be because this class
of businessmen are in deep doo-doo.
Somebody has to be making windfall profits (or at least they have to
have a supportive loan officer at the bank) to support investing in
fine arts and expensive collectables. I don't think we will see such
profits and such "conspicuous consumption" spending back to the
previously lofty levels for a quite a while to come.
As a "historic artifact", any U.S. coin from the 1790s in passable
condition beats a freaking Franklin half dollar.
oly
Bruce Remick
Wearing a collector's hat, I would always favor a classic coin over a modern
condition rarity of similar value. Wearing an investor's hat, I'd have to
study things more carefully. A Franklin going from face value to $20K in
less than 60 years probably isn't that much different from the performance
of whatever VF 1790's dollar you had in mind during the same period. The
trick for the investor though would be to predict their comparative
performance over the next few years. Anyone able to do that would have the
advantage over any of us here.
Bruce Remick
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bb20e6f8-af0c-4d8a...@t23g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 7, 6:49 pm, "Scurvy Dog" <scurvyd...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was perusing a recent issue of Coin World and one of the ads struck me.
> An early 50s Franklin half MS65 FBL sold for over $20K - about the same
> price as
> a late 1790s dollar in VF.
> I don't think the Franklin has as much upside as the dollar.
> Frankly I don't believe ANY Franklin half is worth that kind of dough.
> That made me dig out some old Red Books and sure enough, those coins that
> are
> actual rarities (low mintage) have outperformed the common dates.
> Of course, the red Book didn't/doesn't list by MS grade/FBL.
> So, for your 20 grand, which coin would you rather have???
This response addresses a number of non-hobby considerations and even
a few hobby considerations:
Both the Franklin and the 1790s dollars seem very very fully priced at
this point in time. Owning either one, the non-hobby factors/ things
to worry about would be the potential downside risk(s) of your
invested principal, and the liquidity risk (how long would it take to
sell without taking a big haircut), in the event that you would ever
need to sell the piece..
Since 20 grand is still fifteen troy ounces of gold (probably closer
to 16 or 17), one good question might be would you rather have a wool
sock full of gold for your hard-earned buck, or just a modest sliver
of real shiny silver???
More and more, those of us who audit loan portfolios are seeing people
who have a good "bread and butter" business that has turned very
marginal. Even more, many of these folks also have some smaller side
businesses (often run by their wives and/or children) that have turned
cancerous. These folks aren't going to be spending on toys like they
did 2001-2007. No sirree. If this present reflationary "green
shoots" don't materialize, one big reason will be because this class
of businessmen are in deep doo-doo.
=============
But these people aren't the ones likely to be spending $20K on either
coin. Rather, it's those deep pockets folks who never seem to have to worry
about the economy who can buy the five and six figure coins, along with the
occasional #1 Batman or Superman comic when it becomes available.
=============
Somebody has to be making windfall profits (or at least they have to
have a supportive loan officer at the bank) to support investing in
fine arts and expensive collectables. I don't think we will see such
profits and such "conspicuous consumption" spending back to the
previously lofty levels for a quite a while to come.
=============
There are still loads of rich collectors who are immune from conditions
that affect the rest of us, and who will always be willing to spend six or
seven figures an a rare coin, painting, or classic car-- when they're not
out cruising in their private jet or 200' yacht. Apparently there are some
obsessed people out there who salivate over modern so-called condition
rarity coins, maybe with little concern about ever making a profit or what
others like us may think of their rationality.
=============
As a "historic artifact", any U.S. coin from the 1790s in passable
condition beats a freaking Franklin half dollar.
=============
I doubt that anyone who would spend $20K on a MS70 Franklin would
consider it a "historic artifact". An ego-booster, maybe.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
I have occasionally met three businessmen who have financial
statements with net worths over $70 million each (one is worth quite a
bit more than that). I am quite certain that each of these three
gentlemen would review a $20,000 personal expenditure like a hawk,
especially back when they were younger (in their old age, I sense that
they have loosened up and are trying to enjoy their riches more).
They didn't get where they are today by messing with coins in any way,
shape or form.
Well, I'll take that back - one of those gentleman did have Silvertown
make him a one-ounce silver round commemorating his business. Very
nicely done. He gave copies to family and key employees.
---------------------------------------------------
AND, let's not forget the reaction of non-hobby people, especially
family. You could possibly spend $20,000 on a high-end silver dollar
from the late 1790s, show it to people, and most people would dismiss
you as eccentric. BUT, since the coin was so old (and they don't have
a real solid frame of reference) they might not think that you are
totally nuts.
BUT, you can't let anybody know about spending $20,000 on a Franklin
Half Dollar less than 60 years old. Let anybody know, and that gets
you forced into the Psych ward for a mental evaluation, and concerned
family members will want to take the legal guardianship of your
estate. AND arguably, they are probably correct to do so.
oly
Michael Benveniste
> I was perusing a recent issue of Coin World and one of the ads struck
> me. An early 50s Franklin half MS65 FBL sold for over $20K - about the
> same price as a late 1790s dollar in VF.
(Snip for brevity)
> So, for your 20 grand, which coin would you rather have???
My local dealer has a 1795 3 Leaves $1 in VF35 for $6900, and a 1798 $1
in XF45 for $4750. So for 20 grand, I'd rather have a 1953-S MS-65 FBL
which is the only Franklin that sells at that price. I'd lose less money
on the flip.
I was offered such a '53s for $8000 in 2000. My reaction at the time was
the same as yours. I have little interest in the series, nor in registry
sets, and it would have been a bit of a budget buster. So I took a
pass. The coin has almost tripled in value since then, while non-FBL
copies have appreciated little.
Some of my other investments from that year, like gold bullion, worked
out even better. Others, like a couple of electronics stocks, not so
much :-(.
But it's always worth remembering that price is set by supply _and_
demand. There are some extremely low mintage coins that sell for silly
money. For example, earlier today I was looking at a 1908 Philippine/
U.S. 20-centavo piece slabbed by PCGS in Proof-63. The price in dollars,
(448) was less than the mintage (500). An 1861-O proof half dollar, with
a mintage of perhaps 4 pieces, sold for under $20,000 in 2002.
But with old coins, demand changes more frequently than supply. If that
same 1861-O PR-60 half came on the market today, it might sell for ten
times that.
For $20,000 today, I'd try to get a 1907 $20 High Relief in MS-63 and
settle for a nice MS-62. It's not a particularly rare coin, but one
which I feel is beautiful and will always be in demand.
--
Mike Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Amo conventum instituti. -- Artifex Hannibal
Bruce Remick
---------------------------------------------------
=============
The only coins I would bother to show a non-hobby person might be 2-,
3-, and 20-cent pieces along with maybe a large cent and a gold piece.
Otherwise, I wouldn't expect them to appreciate older coin designs the way a
collector would beyond being a polite audience. I would probably feel the
same about some collector's rare stamp or unique barbed wire specimens.
=============
BUT, you can't let anybody know about spending $20,000 on a Franklin
Half Dollar less than 60 years old. Let anybody know, and that gets
you forced into the Psych ward for a mental evaluation, and concerned
family members will want to take the legal guardianship of your
estate. AND arguably, they are probably correct to do so.
===========
Don't forget to include those heavyweights who would spend five or six
figures on a bottle of old wine that they would never think of opening and
have never tasted in their life, yet they will expound to all who will
listen about how truly fantastic a vintage it is. Talk about "buying the
slab". You could buy a lot of MS70 Franklins for that. I wonder if the
Chinese have found a way to counterfeit rare bottles of wine yet.
mazorj
---------------------------------------------------
oly
===========================
Whereas those same family members would think it utterly rational if the
$20,000 were spent on a bean-sized chunk of crystalline carbon that a lucky
heir would inherit.
True, the diamond has a recognized market value, but this goes to what is
the "worth" of anything. The worth of the elemental carbon is nil. Even in
its diamond form, the "worth" of said bauble is artificially maintained by
an international cartel. IMO the odds that either could always be redeemed
by an heir for the purchase price or more are about the same.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the goal of the collector. If
all you want to do is fill out a folder of decent specimens, an MS-65 is
nice but overkill. Paying anything more than a few dollars for a common
date is a waste.
OTOH a collector might so absolutely love Franklins that he wants to
assemble an entire set of slabbed specimens at MS-65 or better. Assuming
that he can afford it, that's a legitimate collecting strategy. If the
population set for a date in MS-65 is limited and it takes $20,000 to get
one, it's a logical decision. We may not think it rational, but to said
collector it was "worth" the purchase price. Just as paying $20k for a tiny
sparkly stone is "worth" it to an ecstatic wife - and probably to her
husband that night. :-)
Ten years from now his heirs may be cursing his name because interest in
numerically rare specimens of common coins has collapsed. Or they might be
hoisting a toast to him for snagging a coin for a mere $20k that has zoomed
to 20 times that amount now that wealthy Chinese collectors have caught the
fad and are frantically bidding up the price on (non-counterfeit, of course)
numerically rare specimens of all types.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Twenty years ago +, your example would have been the Japanese buying
Van Gogh. BTW, that didn't last very long.
When a family is going down the crapper, financially, they start to
sell-off the "trophies" that they accumulated in their prosperous
past. They sell them to "les nouveaux riches".
But it really really helps if the newly rich share the same set of
values.
When America succeded the British in the period about 80 to 120 years
ago, their old family "trophies" were very easy for newly wealthy
Americans to understand and covet.
IF the future belongs to China, I don't see how they are going to
especially want "Western" trophies (especially the minor post-1945
American-style bullshittae). Especially when they look at what the
Japanese did just a few years back (how little they got for their
money and the "foreigness" of much of what they bought).
And yes, affirmative: diamonds are all about the war between men and
women.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Oly, you have such a way with words! Love it!
James le N�ologiste
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hn38l...@enews5.newsguy.com...
But which declension? Should it be bullshitus, bullshitti?
As to Chinese millionaires wanting minor American cow flops, that's why I
included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here, and given how
much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no reason why it
couldn't happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's amazing what goofy
things can become status symbols for those who suddenly find themselves with
more money than brains.
- mazorj the Latinate
Mr. Jaggers
>
> But which declension? Should it be bullshitus, bullshitti?
>
> As to Chinese millionaires wanting minor American cow flops, that's
> why I included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here,
> and given how much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no
> reason why it couldn't happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's
> amazing what goofy things can become status symbols for those who
> suddenly find themselves with more money than brains.
Tulip bulbs come to mind.
I'd put oly's word in the same category as nauta and agricola, just as he
did - masculine nouns which take the feminine set of endings.
James the Grammarian
Bruce Remick
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hn3bh9$6kq$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
<snipped>
>
> As to Chinese millionaires wanting minor American cow flops, that's why I
> included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here, and given
> how much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no reason why it
> couldn't happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's amazing what goofy
> things can become status symbols for those who suddenly find themselves
> with more money than brains.
>
> - mazorj the Latinate
Can you say "blue jeans"?
mazorj
Perzackly. Although jeans aren't in the $20k league, we have tons of
McMansions built in faux European styles because to many Americans who are
not secure in their architectural heritage, a Tudor or whatever connotes
class and sophistication and bestows a shallow but satisfying sense of
having joined the elite. Who knows, maybe some day there will be a proud
owner of a brand new replica 1950s 3-bedroom American ranch-style brick home
gloating at how he has one-upped the Chans or the Yumigatchis or the
al-Rashids next door.
Americans aren't the only ones susceptible to the "more money than brains"
syndrome. So I really wouldn't be surprised if a numerical rarity
collecting fad spreads to regions with a growing component of nouveau rich
looking for The Next Big Thing.
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> mazorj wrote:
>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>> news:hn38l...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>>> oly wrote:
...
>>>> IF the future belongs to China, I don't see how they are going to
>>>> especially want "Western" trophies (especially the minor post-1945
>>>> American-style bullshittae
>>>
>>> Oly, you have such a way with words! Love it!
>>>
>>> James le N�ologiste
>>
>> But which declension? Should it be bullshitus, bullshitti?
>>
>> As to Chinese millionaires wanting minor American cow flops, that's
>> why I included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here,
>> and given how much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no
>> reason why it couldn't happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's
>> amazing what goofy things can become status symbols for those who
>> suddenly find themselves with more money than brains.
>
> Tulip bulbs come to mind.
And in a lesser vein, Beanie Babies. I have boxes of little furries that
the wife and kids went gaga over. For a brief giddy moment they had
appreciated to the point where they would have fetched a pretty 1909-S VDB
Lincoln penny. Now you can buy 'em by the bag on Craig's List.
> I'd put oly's word in the same category as nauta and agricola, just as he
> did - masculine nouns which take the feminine set of endings.
>
> James the Grammarian
Grrr... you've thrown down the gauntlet, Jacobus. I challenge you to
mano-a-mano with quill pens at one cubitus. The winner being the first to
tattoo a silhouette of Julius Caesar on the other.
I claim first jab because your 1st Declension feminine won't fly. Taurus
(bull) is 3rd declension masculine, fimus (dung) is 2nd Declension
masculine. The plural of either is ~i not ~ae.
- mazorj the Gladiator
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:hn3cq...@enews6.newsguy.com...
>> mazorj wrote:
>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>> news:hn38l...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>>>> oly wrote:
>
> ...
>>>>> IF the future belongs to China, I don't see how they are going to
>>>>> especially want "Western" trophies (especially the minor post-1945
>>>>> American-style bullshittae
>>>>
>>>> Oly, you have such a way with words! Love it!
>>>>
>>>
>>> But which declension? Should it be bullshitus, bullshitti?
>>>
>>> As to Chinese millionaires wanting minor American cow flops, that's
>>> why I included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here,
>>> and given how much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no
>>> reason why it couldn't happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's
>>> amazing what goofy things can become status symbols for those who
>>> suddenly find themselves with more money than brains.
>>
>> Tulip bulbs come to mind.
>
> And in a lesser vein, Beanie Babies. I have boxes of little furries
> that the wife and kids went gaga over. For a brief giddy moment they
> had appreciated to the point where they would have fetched a pretty
> 1909-S VDB Lincoln penny. Now you can buy 'em by the bag on Craig's
> List.
>> I'd put oly's word in the same category as nauta and agricola, just
>> as he did - masculine nouns which take the feminine set of endings.
>>
>> James the Grammarian
>
> Grrr... you've thrown down the gauntlet, Jacobus. I challenge you to
> mano-a-mano with quill pens at one cubitus. The winner being the
> first to tattoo a silhouette of Julius Caesar on the other.
>
> I claim first jab because your 1st Declension feminine won't fly. Taurus
> (bull) is 3rd declension masculine, fimus (dung) is 2nd
> Declension masculine. The plural of either is ~i not ~ae.
Only minimally true, Olive Oil-Breath.
First declension nouns end in -a in the singular nominative and -ae in the
plural nominative. With few exceptions they are feminine in gender.
Adjectives must agree with them in gender, number, and case. Thus puella
exigua, puellae exiguae, but agricola exiguus, agricolae exigui.
Second declension nouns are all masculine and end in unaccented -us in the
singular nominative and -i in the plural nominative. Thus taurus, tauri;
fimus, fimi (you got that much right).
Third declension comprises those nouns which have various forms in the
singular nominative and usually a different stem in the genitive and other
forms. They can be masculine, feminine, or neuter. Thus genus, generes
(m.), religio, religiones (f.) and datum, data (n.).
Fourth declension nouns end in unaccented -us in the singular nominative and
accented -us in the plural nominative. Most are masculine. Thus hiatus,
hiat�s (sorry, I can't make a plain horizontal diacritical accent here).
Fifth declension nouns are all feminine and end in -es in the singular
nominative and -es in the plural nominative. Thus dies, dies.
Iacobus Bellicosus Victorque
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> mazorj wrote:
>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>> news:hn3cq...@enews6.newsguy.com...
>>> mazorj wrote:
>>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>>> news:hn38l...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>>>>> oly wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>>>>> IF the future belongs to China, I don't see how they are going to
>>>>>> especially want "Western" trophies (especially the minor post-1945
>>>>>> American-style bullshittae
>>>>>
>>>>> Oly, you have such a way with words! Love it!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But which declension? Should it be bullshitus, bullshitti?
>>>>
>>>> As to Chinese millionaires wanting minor American cow flops, that's
>>>> why I included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here,
>>>> and given how much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no
>>>> reason why it couldn't happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's
>>>> amazing what goofy things can become status symbols for those who
>>>> suddenly find themselves with more money than brains.
>>>
>>> Tulip bulbs come to mind.
>>
>> And in a lesser vein, Beanie Babies. I have boxes of little furries
>> that the wife and kids went gaga over. For a brief giddy moment they
>> had appreciated to the point where they would have fetched a pretty
>> 1909-S VDB Lincoln penny. Now you can buy 'em by the bag on Craig's
>> List.
>>> I'd put oly's word in the same category as nauta and agricola, just
>>> as he did - masculine nouns which take the feminine set of endings.
>>>
>>> James the Grammarian
>>
>> Grrr... you've thrown down the gauntlet, Jacobus. I challenge you to
>> mano-a-mano with quill pens at one cubitus. The winner being the
>> first to tattoo a silhouette of Julius Caesar on the other.
>>
>> I claim first jab because your 1st Declension feminine won't fly. Taurus
>> (bull) is 3rd declension masculine, fimus (dung) is 2nd
>> Declension masculine. The plural of either is ~i not ~ae.
>
> Only minimally true, Olive Oil-Breath.
Where I come from (grandparents from Naples), them's flattering words.
> First declension nouns end in -a in the singular nominative and -ae in the
> plural nominative. With few exceptions they are feminine in gender.
> Adjectives must agree with them in gender, number, and case. Thus puella
> exigua, puellae exiguae, but agricola exiguus, agricolae exigui.
The word in question - bullshit - is a conflation of an adjective and a
noun. The noun portion - fimus - would govern the ending which should be
bullshitti for the nominative plural. Or if you insist on adjective-noun
agreement, bullishitti.
> Second declension nouns are all masculine and end in unaccented -us in the
> singular nominative and -i in the plural nominative. Thus taurus, tauri;
> fimus, fimi (you got that much right).
>
> Third declension comprises those nouns which have various forms in the
> singular nominative and usually a different stem in the genitive and other
> forms. They can be masculine, feminine, or neuter. Thus genus, generes
> (m.), religio, religiones (f.) and datum, data (n.).
Taurus is not a class of words, it is a specific word, and in Latin it is a
masculine noun whose nominative plural ends in i. Likewise for fimus. So
neither can be 1st Declension, which as you got right, carries the ae plural
but cannot be masculine except for rare exceptions, which I doubt these are.
I don't want to be an ae-hole about it, but "i" is right here.
Old 4th-year Latin joke: What's Latin for "He knows of the little gold
charm"? Bulla sciit.
> Fourth declension nouns end in unaccented -us in the singular nominative
> and accented -us in the plural nominative. Most are masculine. Thus
> hiatus, hiat�s (sorry, I can't make a plain horizontal diacritical accent
> here).
That's okay, neither did the Romans.
> Fifth declension nouns are all feminine and end in -es in the singular
> nominative and -es in the plural nominative. Thus dies, dies.
>
> Iacobus Bellicosus Victorque
- mazorj Napolitano
Veni, Vidi, Vici
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:hn3q9...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> mazorj wrote:
>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>> news:hn3cq...@enews6.newsguy.com...
>>>> mazorj wrote:
>>>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:hn38l...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>>>>>> oly wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>>>>> IF the future belongs to China, I don't see how they are going
>>>>>>> to especially want "Western" trophies (especially the minor
>>>>>>> post-1945 American-style bullshittae
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oly, you have such a way with words! Love it!
>>>>>>
In English, the word in question is a conflation of two nouns, "bull" acting
as an adjective, but still a noun. The Teutonic influence upon English is
evident here (cf. Stierscheisse). In Latin it would have to be rendered as
a noun/genitive construction, fimus tauri (singular fimus, singular bull),
fimi tauri (plural fimus, singular bull), or fimi taurorum (more than one
fimus, more than one bull).
And yes, I *do* insist on adjective-noun agreement. I didn't let my
students get away with anything.
>> Second declension nouns are all masculine and end in unaccented -us
>> in the singular nominative and -i in the plural nominative. Thus
>> taurus, tauri; fimus, fimi (you got that much right).
>>
>> Third declension comprises those nouns which have various forms in
>> the singular nominative and usually a different stem in the genitive
>> and other forms. They can be masculine, feminine, or neuter. Thus
>> genus, generes (m.), religio, religiones (f.) and datum, data (n.).
>
> Taurus is not a class of words, it is a specific word, and in Latin
> it is a masculine noun whose nominative plural ends in i. Likewise
> for fimus. So neither can be 1st Declension, which as you got right,
> carries the ae plural but cannot be masculine except for rare
> exceptions, which I doubt these are.
Huh? Both are 2nd declension.
> I don't want to be an ae-hole about it, but "i" is right here.
>
> Old 4th-year Latin joke: What's Latin for "He knows of the little
> gold charm"? Bulla sciit.
Boola boola.
>> Fourth declension nouns end in unaccented -us in the singular
>> nominative and accented -us in the plural nominative. Most are
>> masculine. Thus hiatus, hiat�s (sorry, I can't make a plain
>> horizontal diacritical accent here).
>
> That's okay, neither did the Romans.
>
>> Fifth declension nouns are all feminine and end in -es in the
>> singular nominative and -es in the plural nominative. Thus dies,
>> dies. Iacobus Bellicosus Victorque
>
> - mazorj Napolitano
> Veni, Vidi, Vici
Non vi virtute vici (to hold the off-topic critics at bay, that's the motto
on an extremely rare early copper coin of New York).
James the Medieval Scrivener
Scurvy Dog
> included the word "fad". If population rarity is a fad here, and given how
> much of American culture is adopted overseas, I see no reason why it couldn't
> happen among Far East nouveau rich too. It's amazing what goofy things can
> become status symbols for those who suddenly find themselves with more money
> than brains.
Condition rarity is even worse in the Canadian coin market where a small but
respected grading company (ICCS) issues population reports and modern late date
MS66 cents sell for $100 because of their alleged "rarity".
I'll stick with truly rare-in-any-condition coins like the 1925 nickel and most
of the George VI dollars...
Scurvy Dog
> Perzackly. Although jeans aren't in the $20k league, we have tons of
> McMansions built in faux European styles because to many Americans who are not
> secure in their architectural heritage, a Tudor or whatever connotes class and
> sophistication and bestows a shallow but satisfying sense of having joined the
> elite.
Or maybe just because they like the style of the house.
There are Tudor style homes scattered throughout my community and I find them
quite pleasing to look at and not pretentious at all.
Then again they aren't of the McMansion size.
Bruce Remick
I just came into a pair of nice VG 1914 and 1915 Barber halves. They look
so nice in VG that I'm afraid I may have suckered myself into going after
the rest of the 20th century halves with similar VG examples. Who Dat says
you need MS70.
Reality
> "Scurvy Dog" <scurvyd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I put together a set of Barber Halves in VG+ a couple of years ago,
and it was a fun ride. Believe it or not, it's more challenging than
it sounds, especially if you want a nicely matched set. Also in my
experience, some of the more "common" dates ended up being tougher to
acquire than the key dates. The last coin that I needed for my set
was the 1894-O, and it took a while to find one that I liked.
I found a couple of the old style classic blue Whitman books with the
mylar slide inserts so that I could view both sides of the coins,
which I found to be a major bonus as I assembled the set.
Bruce Remick
"Reality" <realit...@ausi.com> wrote in message
news:085e1575-a5e8-4a21...@z10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
=============
Please stoppit. You're tempting me. I was hoping for "silly" and
"ridiculous", but now I may not be able to stay away from the Barber waters.
Or is that Barbara Walters?
Mr. Jaggers
A VG+ set of Barber halves keeps one just south of the region of the serious
price jump between grades, and conjures up the bygone era of John Philip
Sousa (sorry, I get silly sentimental when I'm around coins). Too bad a
comparable set of Barber quarters has those three showstoppers, "missing
from most collections"...
James the Barber of Seville
Peter
>
> James the Barber of Seville
>
Not bad, but Mozart did it better (The Marriage of Figaro).
Reality
> "Reality" <realitych...@ausi.com> wrote in message
/Mr. Subliminal On/
Go for it...go for it...go for it...you will now obey the call of
Barber Half fever...that is all...
/Mr. Subliminal Off/
But seriously, when I went to shows and told dealers that I was
assembling that set, the great majority of them had very few coins
that I needed, but at the same time expressed to me that it was a
really cool set to attempt.
BTW, I got most of the coins off of ebay, but FYI Barber Halves were a
fairly hot commodity at the time with several bidders in most cases.
That said, I was patient and made it a policy to never get into
bidding wars, and for the most part was able to buy a majority of the
coins for 10% to 15% back of bid, although I think that was part luck
and part the timing of the end of some of the auctions.
> Or is that Barbara Walters?
Heh..
Reality
True dat. Especially the 01-S. Not to mention that most of them you
find are liberally overgraded, or cleaned, or damaged, etc. priced at
full retail at the next grade up. I've got a real problem paying
$5,000 for an AG, or $10,000 for 20th century quarter in full good
condition, so I doubt I'll ever attempt a Barber Quarter set.
Mr. Jaggers
According to many sources, that 1901-S quarter is the rarest 20th century
U.S. coin. If one is going to purchase one, he should definitely buy it
certified, and even then, be very picky. I was lucky to get a beautiful,
problem-free, certified G-6 just as the price curve was starting to show an
upward tick. The stuff I now regularly see in VG8 and VG10 holders is not a
jot better. I visited the website of a prominent dealer just yesterday and
was thoroughly appalled at the gross overgrading by the grading services.
VF35 CAC buffalo nickels with only 2/3 horn? VF30 CAC Indian cents with
LIBERTY mushy and indistinct? Give me a break.
James the Fastidious
Bruce Remick
===========
Even the abundance of relatively cheaper $200-$400 1800's Barber halves are
enough to make me concentrate only on the 1900-1915-PODS halves, should I
come with the resources to try for such a set. Already having the 1914 and
1915 helps, but it will probably take some time to find nice VG examples of
the rest. Plus, I still have other hobby interests that I probably won't be
able to put aside. Such a serious dilema.
Mr. Jaggers
I'm still missing 85 anvils for what I consider a complete set. Buying just
one of those dudes cuts into my coin habit bigtime.
James the Smithy
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hn9du...@enews5.newsguy.com...
And then there's that bulky album.
Mr. Jaggers
Album? You kidding me? I only buy them slabbed.
James the Weightlifter
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Here I always thought collectors were silly to have their anvils slabbed.
Sorry.
Mr. Jaggers
They're sending whole boatloads of fake anvils out of China, bound for our
shores. A guy can't be too careful. Not everything that rusts is pig iron.
What?
James the Cautious
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I've heard a chorus of anvil complaints but most involved the pieces coming
out of Tchad replaced with tungsten centers.
Mr. Jaggers
I always insist on a separate affidavit certifying specific gravity before
buying anything at all from Tchad.
James "And You Can't Even Make Lightbulb Filaments Out of It Anymore" the
Inventor
Reality
> Bruce Remick wrote:
> > "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> >news:hn9ht...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> >> Bruce Remick wrote:
> >>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> >>>news:hn9du...@enews5.newsguy.com...
> >>>> Bruce Remick wrote:
I've heard the anvils from China are made of balsa wood, so you might
want to buy a pre-slabbed one.
Reality
Several $20 gold pieces and the 1933 $10 gold come to mind, and the
1895 Proof Morgan is also up there in price. A couple of errors are
rarer including the 1975 and 1968 "no-S" dimes (if you want to include
those), but AFA regular issue silver coins the 01-S as being the
rarest is probably true.
If one is going to purchase one, he should definitely buy it
> certified, and even then, be very picky. I was lucky to get a beautiful,
> problem-free, certified G-6 just as the price curve was starting to show an
> upward tick.
Congrats. Timing is everything. I've got a couple that I bought in a
similar fashion.
The stuff I now regularly see in VG8 and VG10 holders is not a
> jot better. I visited the website of a prominent dealer just yesterday and
> was thoroughly appalled at the gross overgrading by the grading services.
> VF35 CAC buffalo nickels with only 2/3 horn? VF30 CAC Indian cents with
> LIBERTY mushy and indistinct? Give me a break.
>
> James the Fastidious
That's a very sad statement on the current grading laxity in the hobby
for sure.
Jud
> James "And You Can't Even Make Lightbulb Filaments Out of It Anymore" the
> Inventor
Sigh...I can afford the anvils, its the damned shipping charges!
Bruce Remick
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b298e6e4-1428-4054...@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
==
I just read where it soon may become illegal to melt them for profit. As an
alternative, you might look into one of those anvil mutual funds. I believe
they will send you a photo of your anvil with a story about it along with a
personal letter every month or so.
Mr. Jaggers
That applies only to orphaned anvils with bloated horns in third-world
countries.
James the Lower Slobovian
Jud
since they have eliminated violence in cartoons there are a glut of
anvils on the market and they are dropping like a rock (pun intended).
Acme has lots of them cheap...but again, its the shipping charges. Of
course if you want, you can pick up used ones cheap from Wiley Coyote.
mazorj
eBay has a few really shiny offerings but if you examine the pics at 200x
you can see they've been cleaned with an angle grinder and probably dipped
in hydrochloric acid.
One came as a set, with a forging hammer certified to have been used by
George Washington on his Mt. Vernon estate. The provenance was well
documented but I passed after reading there that it had received three new
handles and a new head.
Peter
> I'm still missing 85 anvils for what I consider a complete set. Buying just
> one of those dudes cuts into my coin habit bigtime.
>
> James the Smithy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yesterday it was Rossini in the Barber of Seville, today the anvil
chorus (Il Travatore).
Mr. Jaggers
Pa-dum-pum.
James "Rim Shot" the Drummer
Jud
Each burning deed and thought."
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Michael Benveniste
My tastes run more towards heavy metal. Like 19.3 grams/cc.
--
Mike Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Amo conventum instituti. -- Artifex Hannibal