Ebay: look Fishy
randiR
&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320441431759
&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT
same bank, charter, year, denomination, serial number. but definately two
different notes. did they reuse serial numbers back then or ?
jmenni...@new.rr.com
"randiR" <iowa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CC1C5E9EAD0...@204.127.204.17...
Check again, it IS the same bill, with a lot of photoshopping to make it look much
cleaner than it really is.
Look for the two stains just to the right of the "1757" at the top right.
It appears seller "n777mwood" buys under the "wildtuxi" ID.
Here's another that he "improved" to make look a lot better:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320441422856
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120491553089
Deceptive gimmickry like that would make me avoid that seller.
The Giant Brain
Same bill, heavily Photoshopped.
randiR
news:mceLm.15190$Zu5....@newsfe24.iad:
thanks, didnt want to accuse someone of being a slimeball with a feed
back of 100%
Frank Provasek
>
> Same bill, heavily Photoshopped.
Likely so, but be aware that paper money "doctors" can produce
similarly dramatic "improvements" to notes.
--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES www.frankcoins.com
http://myworld.ebay.com/frankcoins Texas Auction License
11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - Full Time Since 1991
Mr. Jaggers
> On Nov 13, 9:40 am, "The Giant Brain" <Gi...@Brain.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Same bill, heavily Photoshopped.
>
> Likely so, but be aware that paper money "doctors" can produce
> similarly dramatic "improvements" to notes.
And no doubt much more efficiently than schlubs trying to figure out how to
do all that with Photoshop.
James, Just Another Schlub
Bob
I think that this goes beyond Photoshopping--I think that this bill
has actually been doctored. A marginal tear has been repaired, and
the stains have been washed out.
Mr. Jaggers
But this raises an interesting question, one that applies to coin doctoring
as well. That question is: Why do numismatists shun such practices, which
actually make the collectibles better-looking, while collectors of antique
furniture, musical instruments, and old phonographs only slightly discount,
and in certain cases, augment, the perceived value of the item?
James the Unscrupulous Modifior of Victrolas
'I've even been known to regasket a reproducer and install a brand new
needle!'
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hdkuo...@enews6.newsguy.com...
> Bob wrote:
>> On Nov 13, 6:04 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>>> Frank Provasek wrote:
>>>> On Nov 13, 9:40 am, "The Giant Brain" <Gi...@Brain.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Same bill, heavily Photoshopped.
>>>
>>>> Likely so, but be aware that paper money "doctors" can produce
>>>> similarly dramatic "improvements" to notes.
>>>
>>> And no doubt much more efficiently than schlubs trying to figure out
>>> how to do all that with Photoshop.
>>>
>>> James, Just Another Schlub
>>
>> I think that this goes beyond Photoshopping--I think that this bill
>> has actually been doctored. A marginal tear has been repaired, and
>> the stains have been washed out.
>
> But this raises an interesting question, one that applies to coin
> doctoring as well. That question is: Why do numismatists shun such
> practices, which actually make the collectibles better-looking, while
> collectors of antique furniture, musical instruments, and old phonographs
> only slightly discount, and in certain cases, augment, the perceived value
> of the item?
>
I believe some old things do show an increase in value when doctored and
repaired. As I recall, my grandfather..........
And then there's my nice new titanium knee.
With all the implication of the near worthlessness a cleaned or repaired
numismatic item, check out the dealer prices for holed bust or seated
dollars, plugged or not. Somebody must like them. I'll admit to owning a
couple of very attractive XF+ seated and trade dollars that would not have
fit in my budget without the hole. I still can't afford the prices I've
seen asked for a decent holed bust dollar.
Mr. Jaggers
My own experience is that selling a holed coin to a dealer is virtually
impossible. Yes, they have to get them somewhere, but most likely they come
as part of a large job lot, where they can monetize their outlay for them at
somewhere between zero and melt. You can be sure that when presented with a
holed coin, a dealer will *not* break out the Grey Sheet and a calculator.
James the Holey One
Frank Provasek
>
> But this raises an interesting question, one that applies to coin doctoring
> as well. That question is: Why do numismatists shun such practices, which
> actually make the collectibles better-looking, while collectors of antique
> furniture, musical instruments, and old phonographs only slightly discount,
> and in certain cases, augment, the perceived value of the item?
>
> James the Unscrupulous Modifior of Victrolas
> 'I've even been known to regasket a reproducer and install a brand new
> needle!'- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
From http://www.pcgscurrency.com/g_overview.html
Pinholes can be filled or closed, handling marks or finger smudges can
be erased, ink marks or stains can be lightened or removed entirely,
tears or splits can be closed, and virtually any problem can be
attacked to improve the appearance or remove its visual signs.
Sometimes, the skill with which these repairs or restorations are
executed makes detection difficult or even impossible.
The problem is not so much the existence of these gray areas, but
their impact on a note’s value. While purists cringe at the fact that
many notes that were once AU or even XF are now sold as uncirculated,
it boils down to fundamental economics. When a circulated note is
pressed and the folds are entirely removed, it again appears
“uncirculated.” Because the market currently dictates that most notes
are worth more as pressed “uncirculated” notes than in their original
state, such restoration is financially rewarded. Any time profit is
available the opportunity will be exploited. If the demand remains for
such pressed notes, supply will follow and restoration will continue.
Mr. Jaggers
> On Nov 13, 6:39 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>
>>
>> But this raises an interesting question, one that applies to coin
>> doctoring as well. That question is: Why do numismatists shun such
>> practices, which actually make the collectibles better-looking,
>> while collectors of antique furniture, musical instruments, and old
>> phonographs only slightly discount, and in certain cases, augment,
>> the perceived value of the item?
>>
>> James the Unscrupulous Modifior of Victrolas
>> 'I've even been known to regasket a reproducer and install a brand
>> new needle!'- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> From http://www.pcgscurrency.com/g_overview.html
>
> Pinholes can be filled or closed, handling marks or finger smudges can
> be erased, ink marks or stains can be lightened or removed entirely,
> tears or splits can be closed, and virtually any problem can be
> attacked to improve the appearance or remove its visual signs.
> Sometimes, the skill with which these repairs or restorations are
> executed makes detection difficult or even impossible.
If the repairs are executed in such a way that they are impossible to
detect, how can one know they have been made?
> The problem is not so much the existence of these gray areas, but
> their impact on a note�s value. While purists cringe at the fact that
> many notes that were once AU or even XF are now sold as uncirculated,
> it boils down to fundamental economics. When a circulated note is
> pressed and the folds are entirely removed, it again appears
> �uncirculated.� Because the market currently dictates that most notes
> are worth more as pressed �uncirculated� notes than in their original
> state, such restoration is financially rewarded. Any time profit is
> available the opportunity will be exploited. If the demand remains for
> such pressed notes, supply will follow and restoration will continue.
My question is not what is done, nor how, but rather why there is this
distinctive standard for coins and paper money that doesn't seem nearly as
rigid in other collectible areas.
James the Persistent
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hdl1j...@enews1.newsguy.com...
Makes me wonder if there are two standards-- one held by numismatic purists
who disdain even the slightest damage or attempt to "curate" it. The other
would be for collectors like me who can enjoy owning an older coin that TPG
purists would reject because of "unnatural surfaces", old cleaning, or even
an old hole, or maybe a colonial note that has had a small tear repaired.
Maybe the real issue is whether a seller tries to conceal the fact that a
repair had been made.
It does seem to depend on the particular collectable as to how or whether
fussing with it is acceptible. Antique cars that have been totally
disassembled, sandblasted, reassembled, repainted, replated, and refitted
with replacement parts seem to bring big bucks at auction. Although I have
noticed an increasing interest in 100% unrestored originals in nice
condition. On the other hand, a 300-year-old desk probably would suffer at
auction if a drawer bottom or piece of trim had been replaced. Heaven
forbid, an old refinishing!
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please note that the worst/strongest of the objections to old cleaning
and "other work" on coins lie almost entirely in the U.S. coin field -
generally where the most cash is on-the-line. In world coins, it
depends more on just exactly what "work" has been done; in ancient
coins people "work" on coins all the time.
In fact, "they" "work" on coins all the damn time in the U.S. field
too, but lord forbid that a layman try to get in on the gravy train.
For the collector, well "Caveat emptor". The buyer needs one hundred
eyes; the seller needs none.
oly
"Optimistic as always"
Mr. Jaggers
Although I share your appreciation of less-than-pristine coins, I shy away
from them because there is such a double standard on the part of dealers
about them. They want to buy them for near melt, but then discount them
only 10%, maybe, from full-bore retail on the other end. I don't collect as
an investment, but have to be practical about it. If I buy a problem $1000
coin for $900 tomorrow morning and then cross the Chilly River on the way
home, I don't want my Sainted Widow to be told in a coin shop after the
funeral that she can only get $15 for my 1799 silver dollar.
James the Speculator
Mr. Jaggers
Hey, I used that line on here a few years ago. It's trademarked. Please
apologize immediately!
That said, it is still hard to sell problem world coins in the U.S. because
of the crosstalk from U.S. collecting. And I've seen hundreds of obviously
cleaned U.S. coins in "respectable" graded slabs, but what are the odds of
getting my even very lightly dipped circulation strike 1867 3 cent silver
into a graded slab? Hint: two tries, two failures, $60 + postal
registrations both ways invested.
James
'third time's the charm?'
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I don't buy collection coins with resale in mind either, so I don't really
expect to ever face a dealer with my early holed dollars or a few large
cents with toning that may cover a 100-year old cleaning. I bought them
fully knowing the stigma attached to them by the hobby elite, but I liked
the looks of them and the price was reasonable. The prices I paid for them
are recorded in my records, so if an heir cares to check, he or she will
have at least some idea of their value to me and the former owner. I must
say that these few coins are the exception in my collection-- ones I don't
worry about keeping around the house-- and I do try to avoid questionable
coins as a rule.
oly
> oly wrote:
> > On Nov 13, 8:21 pm, "Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:hdl1j...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>
> >>> Frank Provasek wrote:
> >>>> On Nov 13, 6:39 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com>
> >>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>> But this raises an interesting question, one that applies to coin
> >>>>> doctoring as well. That question is: Why do numismatists shun such
> >>>>> practices, which actually make the collectibles better-looking,
> >>>>> while collectors of antique furniture, musical instruments, and
> >>>>> old phonographs only slightly discount, and in certain cases,
> >>>>> augment, the perceived value of the item?
>
> >>>>> James the Unscrupulous Modifior of Victrolas
> >>>>> 'I've even been known to regasket a reproducer and install a brand
> >>>>> new needle!'- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>>>> - Show quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pardon, monsieur...
Mais actualment... if you simply owned a grading service, you'd have
NO problem sliding those coins through. "They" don't know whose coins
they are grading - la merde des taureaux!!!
I attribute lots of "condition-related" mental problems in US. coin
collecting to the bags and bags of Morgan dollars which sat in
Treasury vaults for 80+ years. In most any other area of numismatics,
there simply aren't large quantities of pristine Mint state coins from
the 19th century (or earlier). But because silver was a political
football after 1873 until at least the election of 1900, we have all
these wonderful Mint State silver dollars. We are spoiled.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Heh. A friend of mine told me that I hadn't wrapped the coin in question
properly. His advice: "Carefully wrap a $100 bill around the 2 1/2 inch by
2 1/2 inch required flip and tape it lightly thereto with Franklin's
portrait fully visible on one side. Have a female of your choice put on
bright red lipstick and then press her lips firmly over Ben's portrait,
leaving a big kiss mark thereon."
> I attribute lots of "condition-related" mental problems in US. coin
> collecting to the bags and bags of Morgan dollars which sat in
> Treasury vaults for 80+ years. In most any other area of numismatics,
> there simply aren't large quantities of pristine Mint state coins from
> the 19th century (or earlier). But because silver was a political
> football after 1873 until at least the election of 1900, we have all
> these wonderful Mint State silver dollars. We are spoiled.
That one I'll have to think about for a while before commenting.
James the Contemplative
"Roßert G. Schaffrath"
I notice it sold for $630.98 from novus.ordo.seclorum and, after the
Photoshop work, it sold for $381.50. If this guy is trying to make a
profit, he isn't doing a very good job.
From the other example presented, the $50 Gold Certificate sold for
$371.88 from novus.ordo.seclorum only to be sold for $322.00 after the
Photoshop work.
It defies logic...
Nick Knight
>I notice it sold for $630.98 from novus.ordo.seclorum and, after the
>Photoshop work, it sold for $381.50. If this guy is trying to make a
>profit, he isn't doing a very good job.
The $381.50 price is only the CURRENT bid. It has 4 days, 11 hours to cover
more ground; the last couple of minutes the most important. I did not see
the links to the other examples to comment.
Nick
note.boy
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:3d52a6e7-7980-406d...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Unfortunately you are correct, as long as some misguided collectors shun
perfectly acceptable, to the sensible collector, gVF notes in favour of a
pressed EF or Unc for more money, the practice will continue.
I am very wary of buying any note off ebay that's above gVF for fear of it
having been ironed, unless it's a fairly new issue of course Billy
Mr. Jaggers
As I know virtually nothing about paper money, you'll have to help me out
here.
How does one tell the difference between an originally crisp bill and one
that has been ironed or pressed to appear crisp?
James
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hdmq1...@enews6.newsguy.com...
Perhaps the subject's garment(s) will appear wrinkled on a bill that has not
been ironed or pressed. Or not?
note.boy
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hdmq1...@enews6.newsguy.com...
If an ebay seller only lists "high grade" notes that are not recent issues
then beware, why do they have no notes below EF to offer?
From a Scottish banknote perspective there are very few pre 1960 notes
around that are genuinely above gVF, and I mean a proper gVF not the ebay
version which is often only good fine, that's why I'm wary of buying any
note off ebay that's claimed to be EF or uncirculated.
Some large Scottish notes were folded before being issued to the public but
these can be seen offered as being in uncirculated condition, which is
impossible.
A test that can be used is that if a note is held in the flat of the hand an
ironed note will curl up due to body heat, probably not infallible but worth
a try.
This note is in wonderful original gVF condition,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180427176654
and I would rather have it than some ironed abomination at double the price,
in fact I would rather have it than an ironed abomination at HALF the price
of this one.
There is an ebay seller who, if they had bought this note, would iron it and
sell it as EF or unc, it's an added bonus that I saved it from that fate.
Billy
note.boy
"Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:MZCLm.2495$kY2....@newsfe01.iad...
That's close to the truth, the embossed effect created by the high quality
printing of Scottish notes can be lost if a note is ironed, a useful test is
to run a finger over the note and if it's completely flat it may have been
ironed.
Some Scottish notes were printed using the lithographic process and this
test does not apply to them as the printing is flat to start with. Billy
Mr. Jaggers
Perhaps for the same reason that Ira does not offer coins that are inferior.
There are several purveyors of both U.S. and world coins who deal only in
primo examples. There are plenty of others that deal in bottom-feeder
material.
> From a Scottish banknote perspective there are very few pre 1960 notes
> around that are genuinely above gVF, and I mean a proper gVF not the
> ebay version which is often only good fine, that's why I'm wary of
> buying any note off ebay that's claimed to be EF or uncirculated.
That seems a reasonable precaution. Things are getting worse day by day, it
appears.
> Some large Scottish notes were folded before being issued to the
> public but these can be seen offered as being in uncirculated
> condition, which is impossible.
If a fold is part of the issue as released, how can it not be uncirculated?
Coins that drop from the press into a bin pick up all manner of contact
marks, including fingerprints, yet are still considered Mint State. I
daresay that is one of the origins of our ten-point spread in the MS range.
> A test that can be used is that if a note is held in the flat of the
> hand an ironed note will curl up due to body heat, probably not
> infallible but worth a try.
What are the physics behind this?
> This note is in wonderful original gVF condition,
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180427176654
>
> and I would rather have it than some ironed abomination at double the
> price, in fact I would rather have it than an ironed abomination at
> HALF the price of this one.
On my screen and to my eyes, the vertical creases are more prominent than
the horizontal one by quite a long shot.
> There is an ebay seller who, if they had bought this note, would iron
> it and sell it as EF or unc, it's an added bonus that I saved it from
> that fate. Billy
Keep up the good work!
James
note.boy
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Not to state the obvious but it's a lot easier to detect an "improved" coin
than an "improved" banknote so I have no problem with a seller specialising
in accurately graded high grade coins.
>
>> From a Scottish banknote perspective there are very few pre 1960 notes
>> around that are genuinely above gVF, and I mean a proper gVF not the
>> ebay version which is often only good fine, that's why I'm wary of
>> buying any note off ebay that's claimed to be EF or uncirculated.
>
> That seems a reasonable precaution. Things are getting worse day by day,
> it
> appears.
>
>> Some large Scottish notes were folded before being issued to the
>> public but these can be seen offered as being in uncirculated
>> condition, which is impossible.
>
> If a fold is part of the issue as released, how can it not be
> uncirculated?
> Coins that drop from the press into a bin pick up all manner of contact
> marks, including fingerprints, yet are still considered Mint State. I
> daresay that is one of the origins of our ten-point spread in the MS
> range.
By IBNS standards there are no degrees of uncirculated for a note, it's
either uncirculated, or it's not, a view that I agree with 100%. If a type
of note was always folded before being relased to the public then it's
mpossible to obtain an accurately graded unce note because they don't exist.
>> A test that can be used is that if a note is held in the flat of the
>> hand an ironed note will curl up due to body heat, probably not
>> infallible but worth a try.
>
> What are the physics behind this?
No idea but it appears to work, something that does work is placing a note
under a UV lamp to detect washing, if washed the paper glows.
>> This note is in wonderful original gVF condition,
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180427176654
>>
>> and I would rather have it than some ironed abomination at double the
>> price, in fact I would rather have it than an ironed abomination at
>> HALF the price of this one.
>
> On my screen and to my eyes, the vertical creases are more prominent than
> the horizontal one by quite a long shot.
If a note of this vintage, and 7 inches by 4 inches, did not have any
vertical folds, to fit it into a wallet, it would indicate that it had been
presed, I'm delighted that it has 3 vertical folds, as it should have. It
may have seen very little actual circulation as it is very clean.
>> There is an ebay seller who, if they had bought this note, would iron
>> it and sell it as EF or unc, it's an added bonus that I saved it from
>> that fate. Billy
>
> Keep up the good work!
He bought three notes recently, when they appeared on ebay magically
transfomed into EF or unc I will post links here. Billy
>
> James
>
>
>
Mr. Jaggers
Much obliged for the enlightenment, Billy.
James
mazorj
"note.boy" <note...@naespamntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:q6WLm.67562$kH2....@newsfe04.ams2...
>
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:hdp3n...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> note.boy wrote:
...
>>> A test that can be used is that if a note is held in the flat of the
>>> hand an ironed note will curl up due to body heat, probably not
>>> infallible but worth a try.
>>
>> What are the physics behind this?
>
> No idea but it appears to work, something that does work is placing a note
> under a UV lamp to detect washing, if washed the paper glows.
Are you sure that it's not dried blood or semen causing the glow? (Sorry,
I've been watching too many cop shows.)
This is more of a thought experiment than direct knowledge, but...
A fold is a mechanical deformation. If the note was ironed flat with no
heat, the realignment of the paper fibers would be purely mechanical, the
result of pressure deformation flattening the fiber matrix. Applying heat
should loosen the pressure-deformed portions of the fiber matrix, which
might release some of the post-ironing pressure deformation so that it
returns to its previous folded or curled state.
This might even apply in the case of heat ironing if pressure was maintained
until the bill cooled to room temperature. Then, applying heat without the
restraining mechanical pressure of the iron might likewise release the fiber
deformations to return to the folded or curled state.
In addition to the above, the curling in Billy's "hand heat test" may also
be the result of the same effect as in bi-metallic flat springs. These are
flat strips composed of two clad metals, much like clad coins but very thin
with just two ("bi-metallic") layers. The different coefficients of heat
expansion between the two metals cause the strip to curl and uncurl as the
temperature changes. Bills don't have different compositions on their front
and back sides, but by holding one in your hand, you are applying the
temperature change to just one side of the bill. The fibers on the heated
side might expand faster than the fibers on the other side, causing it to
curl. Of course, that phenomenon would happen regardless of whether the
bill had been ironed, so the interaction between this and the
above-described heat/fiber deformations could be complex. Ironing, with or
without heat, may only subtly increase or decrease the amount of curling
from the body-heat effect. Or it might magnify the effect significantly.
OTOH, maybe all curls and fold deformations are caused by invisible Paper
Demons that flee back to their own dimension when any pressure or heat
source is applied. Lacking the proper laboratory facilities, I cannot test
any of these hypotheses.
- mazorj, Amateur Physicist