My Baltimore Coin Show report: "Brother, Can You Spare a Dichalkos" edition
part...@yahoo.com
I just got back from the Baltimore Coin and Currency Convention. I
don't have hard data on actual sales made, but the floor traffic
seemed pretty strong despite the economy. Many dealers started
packing up at around 1:30- 2 PM (the show has no Sunday hours this
time), but at least they did stay for the morning, recognizing that
many people might not be able to take a day off work to attend and
could only visit the bourse on the weekend. I ended up buying six
Parthian coins, which is pretty good for me for any show.
At Pegasi Numismatics, I traded in a small Greek silver coin and a
Roman denarius I no longer wanted as partial payment for the three
Parthian coins I ended up getting. Fortunately for me, Pegasi had
brought along a box of Parthian coins, and there were quite a few
worthwhile coins in there. I left with a tetradrachm of Orodes II, a
high-grade drachm of Mithradates III, and a VF+ bronze of the latter.
High-grade Parthian bronze is always scarce, so I was especially happy
with the last coin.
At the Stephen Album firm's table, I was happy to see that Steve
himself was there- he hasn't come out to the Baltimore show in a
little while. Steve always has lots of entertaining stories and
opinions to share while you look at the coins. I looked through a
bunch of copper coins of the poorly-understood "Sanabares" type,
Sellwood 93, that were issued along the eastern frontier of the
Parthian kingdom. This lot had come from the estate of William
Spengler (who co-wrote the excellent "Turkoman Figural Bronze Coins"
volumes with Wayne Sayles). Spengler had purchased a large hoard and
kept the best examples for his own collection, intending to study and
publish them at some point. I ended up buying three of the coins,
which exhibit significant stylistic differences, and I have to agree
that they deserve a comprehensive re-examination.
Had an interesting experience at another dealer's table (who I will
not name, for reasons that should become obvious.) I looked at a nice
Hadrian sestertius, but his best price was $900, which is more than I
had budgeted for the whole show. He looked me over a bit, asked a few
roundabout questions, and then made another offer. Apparently
Maryland charges sales tax on coin sales only up to $1000 in value,
but transactions above that amount are exempt. (According to him,
anyway, don't blame me if you try to take advantage of that fact and
learn it's not correct!) So he offered to write up an invoice for
$1000, I could pay with a check for $1000 (thus avoiding sales tax),
and he would refund $100 cash "under the table" with the coin. I
passed on the deal. Anyway, I'd be interested to know if others think
that dealer was unethical; please show your work.
Overall it was a good show. I didn't find any Civil War Tokens, but
the Parthian finds more than made up for that omission. The Spengler
coins, and comments from another dealer, have started me thinking
about whether I should try writing about my coins for publication.
Right now I don't feel qualified to write at any serious length on
coins, just the show reviews and other little pieces I write here and
(from time to time) on eBay's coin boards. I don't think I am the
right one to untangle the mystery of the Sanabares coinage. But maybe
if I think about it I could come up with something of interest for the
Celator? Anyway, that was my view of the show, I'd be interested to
hear what others thought.
-Robert A. DeRose, Jr.
Mr. Jaggers
In my view it is unethical for one state to levy a sales tax on numismatic
coins while another does not. Thus, the suggested deal represents
legitimate civil disobedience against that state. I would not feel the same
way about a Federal sales tax, one that would affect all alike.
James the Ethically Conflicted
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:gqm8f...@enews2.newsguy.com...
But how is that different from some states charging sales tax on food
or drugs and other not? How does that differ from when you're in a
state that taxes at a different rate from your own? It's not ethics,
just tax and fiscal policy.
It would be different - and unfair - if they charged sales tax only on
sales made by out-of-state dealers at the show. And I don't even want
to get near opening the ethical can of worms labeled "Should I Pay the
State Sales Taxes Owed on My Internet Purchases?".
Regardless of whether or not I agree with the intent of dealer's
tactics, what he offered to do was unethical. I think I'd walk away
just on the theory that if he's willing to falsify sales
documentation, what else on or about his table is bogus? We spend a
considerable amount of time here railing against unethical dealers on
and off of eBay and the folly of buyers who got screwed with eyes wide
open. Why should the ethics and the caveats change simply because we
don't like paying taxes and/or the deal redounds to our own benefit?
Mr. Jaggers
Let me state my position more succinctly: I am a Federalist.
James
Bob F
> Let me state my position more succinctly: I am a Federalist.
I am a Socialist-Progressive.
Mr. Jaggers
That's fine. But what's your position on sales tax on coins?
James
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Fair enough. There are a great many instances where we're better off
having one (Federal) approach to an issue. However, if I had to
pigeon-hole my "ism" regarding this case in point, I'd have to say
that I'm a practicing (if not always hard-core) pragmatist.
- mazorj the Situational Ethicist
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I expect to pay sales tax on any collectible purchased from a local dealer,
so why should I not expect to pay a sales tax on a coin purchased from a
coin dealer? I see no difference.
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:gqmf5...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>> Bob F wrote:
>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>> news:gqmcv...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>>> Let me state my position more succinctly: I am a Federalist.
>>>
>>> I am a Socialist-Progressive.
>>
>> That's fine. But what's your position on sales tax on coins?
>>
>> James
>
> I expect to pay sales tax on any collectible purchased from a local
> dealer, so why should I not expect to pay a sales tax on a coin
> purchased from a coin dealer? I see no difference.
The difference that I am showcasing is that of buying coins in-state versus
buying coins out-of-state. I live in a state that exacts a sales tax on
sales of numismatic coins. Of the four states that border mine, three do
not exact said tax. It is not the tax itself that is problematic, only the
stark fact that it is not collected the same way everywhere. If I drive 100
miles (or walk ten feet) across a state line to attend a show or visit a
shop where I don't have to pay sales tax, is that ethical? This is a
Federal republic, after all. I could wax eloquent on the Holy Roman Empire
that is public education as well, but will spare my readers, at least for
now.
James
Bob F
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I'm against all taxes levied by local governments.
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:gqmf5...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>> Bob F wrote:
>>> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>> news:gqmcv...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>>> Let me state my position more succinctly: I am a Federalist.
>>>
>>> I am a Socialist-Progressive.
>>
>> That's fine. But what's your position on sales tax on coins?
>
> I'm against all taxes levied by local governments.
I greatly dislike Federal bureaucracies, but find that overall, state
bureaucracies are worse, followed by local bureaucracies, which are the
worst of them all. Taxes levied by local governments are often the products
of wilfully ignorant people who don't get out much.
James
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I have a problem understanding why, within any one state, sales of
numismatic coins are not taxed while sales of items in the same category
like early comics, gum cards, stamps, etc. would be. What's so unique about
collectible coins? The tax differences between adjacent states are well
documented, and we all probably can cite curious examples in our own areas.
Bruce Remick
"mazorj" <maz...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:Xvzzl.303$Q52...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>
>> Let me state my position more succinctly: I am a Federalist.
>
> Fair enough. There are a great many instances where we're better off
> having one (Federal) approach to an issue. However, if I had to
> pigeon-hole my "ism" regarding this case in point, I'd have to say that
> I'm a practicing (if not always hard-core) pragmatist.
>
> - mazorj the Situational Ethicist
Ah. A man after my own heart. Sadly, those like us probably never will be
in charge of things.
Mr. Jaggers
Well, exactly. Honest people thrive on consistency. It's when the rules
are confusing, arbitrary, or capricious that opportunities for less than
ethical behavior become attractive.
For example (a real-life scenario where I live): If I am at a show in a
"coin taxing" state, and decide to purchase, say, a $300 coin, the dealer
will often give me the choice as to whether to pay cash or write a check.
If I write a check, I have to include sales tax. If I pay cash, I do not
(in this case I must view the dealer as a black box whose inner workings I
cannot see nor know). Talk to me about the ethics involved in this
scenario - mine and the dealer's. If you dare.
James
Ken Barr
[snip]
> I have a problem understanding why, within any one state, sales of
> numismatic coins are not taxed while sales of items in the same category
> like early comics, gum cards, stamps, etc. would be. What's so unique about
> collectible coins? The tax differences between adjacent states are well
> documented, and we all probably can cite curious examples in our own areas.
Many yearz ago, here in Kaleefornia, the Koin Deeler Lobby convinced
(i. e., "lobbied with dollars attached") the state legislature that
they were loosing Tons O' Money on bullion sales since the margins
were so low and they could not fairly compete with out-of-state
sellers who were not required to charge sales tax (four or five
perzent at the time IIRC).
SO, the legislature, after counting up all the contributions,
instituted a $1,000 limit on sales tax exemptions for Bullion and
Collectible Coins ... purchases under $1,000 were "collector
purchases" and subject to sales tax, whilst purchases over $1,000 were
"investment purchases" and exempted from the onerous sales tax.
The limit was raised from $1,000 to $1,500 as of January 1st of this
year, presumably after the offical Koin Deeler Lobby ponied up enough
"contributions" to keep them from eliminating the exemption
altogether ...
I'm sure that if the Comic Book Deeler, Gum Card Deeler and Stamp
Deeler lobbies contributed enough to the politicians, they could get
an "investment" exemption as well ...
[With regards to the Original Poster's situation, I have on occasion
offered to sell a prospective buyer enough bullion to push the total
sale over the exemption limit, then buy back any excess the buyer
really didn't want at slightly less than my selling price. As far as
I know, this is both legal and ethical ...]
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
It seems to me that such rules would invite inventiveness to circumvent the
intent while keeping within the letter of the law. Some might call that
unethical. Others may aplaud the cleverness.
>
> For example (a real-life scenario where I live): If I am at a show in a
> "coin taxing" state, and decide to purchase, say, a $300 coin, the dealer
> will often give me the choice as to whether to pay cash or write a check.
> If I write a check, I have to include sales tax. If I pay cash, I do not
> (in this case I must view the dealer as a black box whose inner workings I
> cannot see nor know). Talk to me about the ethics involved in this
> scenario - mine and the dealer's. If you dare.
I can only share your frustration. But I wouldn't condemn the dealer.
Otherwise, I have nothing else to say. It would be futile going up against
a state mechanism.
jack
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
I saw posters at the show that stated there is no sales tax on money.
I didn't buy any coins this time.
jack
mazorj
"Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:GJAzl.151209$2h5....@newsfe11.iad...
We can dream, can't we?
Unfortunately, taking a reasoned, logical approach to things is not a
good election strategy. So we're not likely candidates for positions
of power.
Bruce Remick
"jack" <sasd...@lkuy.com> wrote in message
news:KhBzl.317$Q5...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
We must commend your restraint! How long were you able to remain inside
before going through withdrawal?
Bruce Remick
Exposure to today's Party politicians will only breed more pragmatists.
Maybe one day.........
jack
>
>>> I saw posters at the show that stated there is no sales tax on money.
>> I didn't buy any coins this time.
>>
>> jack
>
> We must commend your restraint! How long were you able to remain inside
> before going through withdrawal?
Good question - this trip I really wasn't looking for anything except to buy
some coin collecting
supplies for the kids. As usual, the US Mint did a good exhibition. For the
last few months I've only bought gold coins
so i didn't have any money to buy anything i wanted at the show. I also
collect medals produced by the french mint.
The best medals i saw were by a dealer named goetz who is always at this
show. usually, there is a larger selection of medal dealers but
several dealers had already left the floor by 11am saturday they probably
left on friday.
Stopped by the PCGS table to find out what I had to do to get my 2009 UHR
gold double eagle graded
and learned since i opened the package (shipped on march 4th) it wasn't
eligible for a first strike grading
so why bother. On eBay first strike ms70 UHR 2009 double eagles were
selling for more than double the purchase cost.
BTW, I didn't see any 2009 UIHR coins at the show on Saturday.
I think the next big show in baltimore is may '09
jack
Bob F
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> Well, exactly. Honest people thrive on consistency. It's when the
> rules are confusing, arbitrary, or capricious that opportunities for
> less than ethical behavior become attractive.
Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little
minds"
Bob F
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> I greatly dislike Federal bureaucracies, but find that overall, state
> bureaucracies are worse, followed by local bureaucracies, which are
> the worst of them all. Taxes levied by local governments are often
> the products of wilfully ignorant people who don't get out much.
The layers of government are particularly egregious by me: there are
villages within the towns, towns within the county, counties within the
state.
There are also special districts: fire, sanitation, water, school and
others, all of which have their own bureaucracies.
Needless to say, our tax rates are among the highest in the nation.
Bruce Remick
"Bob F" <b...@march2009.invalid> wrote in message
news:gqnr4o$4u7$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:gqmk1...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>> I greatly dislike Federal bureaucracies, but find that overall, state
>> bureaucracies are worse, followed by local bureaucracies, which are the
>> worst of them all. Taxes levied by local governments are often the
>> products of wilfully ignorant people who don't get out much.
>
> The layers of government are particularly egregious by me: there are
> villages within the towns, towns within the county, counties within the
> state.
And undoubtedly there are individuals who would literally mortgage their
futures and compromise their convictions just to campaign for election as
local supervisor, councilman, animal control officer, at-large delegate,
school board member, etc. We even have those who go to great lengths to be
elected as one of the officers in their community association. This group
typically includes retired military types who apparently suffer withdrawal
from no longer being in charge of things and people.
> There are also special districts: fire, sanitation, water, school and
> others, all of which have their own bureaucracies.
> Needless to say, our tax rates are among the highest in the nation.
Makes the ANA bureaucracy seem pretty normal.
Jud
> > In my view it is unethical for one state to levy a sales tax on
> > numismatic coins while another does not. Thus, the suggested deal
> > represents legitimate civil disobedience against that state. I
> > would not feel the same way about a Federal sales tax, one that
> > would affect all alike.
I am sure that many 'old-timers' here remember Tim Dobac who posited
that "you can't buy money, only exchange it". A very interesting
philosophical argument, similar to the physics axiom that you can't
create or destroy energy, only change its form.
Anybody ever hear from Tim?
PC
"Bob F" <b...@march2009.invalid> wrote in message
I am a member of an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act
as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that
executive must be ratified at a bi-weekly meeting ...
PC
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> If I drive 100 miles (or walk ten feet) across a state line to attend a
> show or visit a shop where I don't have to pay sales tax, is that ethical?
Yes because you are in a state that does not collect taxes. Simple.
PC
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>
> For example (a real-life scenario where I live): If I am at a show in a
> "coin taxing" state, and decide to purchase, say, a $300 coin, the dealer
> will often give me the choice as to whether to pay cash or write a check.
> If I write a check, I have to include sales tax. If I pay cash, I do not
> (in this case I must view the dealer as a black box whose inner workings I
> cannot see nor know). Talk to me about the ethics involved in this
> scenario - mine and the dealer's. If you dare.
>
Tax is required by the state regardless of purchase method. Simple.
PC
>
> Stopped by the PCGS table to find out what I had to do to get my 2009 UHR
> gold double eagle graded
> and learned since i opened the package (shipped on march 4th) it wasn't
> eligible for a first strike grading
> so why bother. On eBay first strike ms70 UHR 2009 double eagles were
> selling for more than double the purchase cost.
For a bogus designation it sure carried a hefty premium!
I am waiting for the Barack Obama slabbed UHR. Ooo boy!
PC
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>
> In my view it is unethical for one state to levy a sales tax on numismatic
> coins while another does not.
"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."
So if you claim to be exporting it then, no tax?
jack
"PC" <P...@Minneapolis.mn.us> wrote in message
news:gqo449$jmg$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>
> "jack" <sasd...@lkuy.com> wrote in message
> news:GmCzl.330$Q52...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>
>> Stopped by the PCGS table to find out what I had to do to get my 2009 UHR
>> gold double eagle graded
>> and learned since i opened the package (shipped on march 4th) it wasn't
>> eligible for a first strike grading
>> so why bother. On eBay first strike ms70 UHR 2009 double eagles were
>> selling for more than double the purchase cost.
>
> For a bogus designation it sure carried a hefty premium!
anybody who doesn't consider doubling their money deserves what they get in
life.
it's a beautiful coin with a class act presentation I'd really like to see
the same coin in a two ounce coin.
ank...@aol.com
Wow! What a great quote! Still remember Tim, but haven't heard of/
from him in years. I think I finally deleted a photo of him several
years ago, when I got my new computer.
~Anka
PC
>
> "PC" <P...@Minneapolis.mn.us> wrote in message
> news:gqo449$jmg$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "jack" <sasd...@lkuy.com> wrote in message
>> news:GmCzl.330$Q52...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>>
>>> Stopped by the PCGS table to find out what I had to do to get my 2009
>>> UHR gold double eagle graded
>>> and learned since i opened the package (shipped on march 4th) it wasn't
>>> eligible for a first strike grading
>>> so why bother. On eBay first strike ms70 UHR 2009 double eagles were
>>> selling for more than double the purchase cost.
>>
>> For a bogus designation it sure carried a hefty premium!
>
> anybody who doesn't consider doubling their money deserves what they get
> in life.
>
Huh? You make it seem as if I implied the opposite. I most certainly did
not.
jack
>>>
>>> "jack" <sasd...@lkuy.com> wrote in message
>>> news:GmCzl.330$Q52...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>>>
>>>> Stopped by the PCGS table to find out what I had to do to get my 2009
>>>> UHR gold double eagle graded
>>>> and learned since i opened the package (shipped on march 4th) it wasn't
>>>> eligible for a first strike grading
>>>> so why bother. On eBay first strike ms70 UHR 2009 double eagles were
>>>> selling for more than double the purchase cost.
>>>
>>
>> in life.
>>
>
> Huh? You make it seem as if I implied the opposite. I most certainly did
> not.
>
is was referring to your statement:
>>> For a bogus designation it sure carried a hefty premium!
i paid $1,194.00 for a coin that was selling for upwards of $2,800.00 on
eBay
have you seen the coin and the box that ships with it?
PC
>
>> Huh? You make it seem as if I implied the opposite. I most certainly
>> did not.
>>
>
> is was referring to your statement:
>
>>>> For a bogus designation it sure carried a hefty premium!
>
> i paid $1,194.00 for a coin that was selling for upwards of $2,800.00 on
> eBay
>
And? How does that change the fact that the designation is bogus? The fact
that the designation is bogus does not change the fact that it has an impact
on the marketplace, obviously.
> have you seen the coin and the box that ships with it?
>
No, I have not seen it. I have a hard time understanding that, no matter
how great that is, how it can legitimize a large premium for a slabbed coin
(with or without the box) just because it happened to be rushed to a TPG
within 30 days.
If you did this and made out then congratulations on you. I wish I had done
the same in a way. I just don't see how it made the coin more valuable.
jack
> If you did this and made out then congratulations on you. I wish I had
> done the same in a way. I just don't see how it made the coin more
> valuable.
Who can explain the market? What's the coin worth? whatever they'll pay for
it. Is it worth it? yes, to the purchaser.