Help with an old coin ID
winterwolfes
think. I've scoured the internet many times trying to figure out what
it is but have never had any luck. A friend of mine told me about the
group and said that maybe someone could help. It seems to be gold or
bronze and I can't make out any of the script on it. It has a shield
one side and on the other some scroll work with what looks like a
bunch of arrows.
I have a picture of the coin posted here:
http://www.coinscatalog.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=625&d=1247169839
http://www.coinscatalog.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=626&d=1247169884
It maybe nothing but a replica. But I've always wondered about it.
Thanks!
Thomas A.
Are both of these images supposed to be the same? They are identical.
PC
"Thomas A." <sp...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:XdGdnXg_Efrb_svX...@earthlink.com...
???
I see two different images.
oly
> I've had this coin since I was a kid. My grandfather gave it to me, I
> think. I've scoured the internet many times trying to figure out what
> it is but have never had any luck. A friend of mine told me about the
> group and said that maybe someone could help. It seems to be gold or
> bronze and I can't make out any of the script on it. It has a shield
> one side and on the other some scroll work with what looks like a
> bunch of arrows.
>
>
> It maybe nothing but a replica. But I've always wondered about it.
>
> Thanks!
My eyes don't want to bring the legend in focus, but there's something
about the look of this that says Spain (Castille or Aragon) about the
time of Ferdinand and Isabella (c.1480). If so, yes, replicas exist.
A genuine coin would be a worthwhile find. I cannot make any kind of
judgement about yours. Look at the edge to see if there is a seam
where two halves have been fused together.
If anybody has a better idea, please chime in. This ID could be
entirely wrong. I don't have a book covering this era, I seem to
remember having read about a similar piece, a replica (I have one
somewhere), on the Internet two or three years ago. If you can get
your eyes to pick up on where the inscription/lettering starts, I
think you should be able to make out FERD YSABEL or something like
that. My eyes can't pick up a starting point and that's why I really
gotta be tentative here because you CAN read the legend when your eyes
pick up the style. The gentlemen of the Chicago Coin Club helped to
convince me that my piece was simply a replica.
oly
winterwolfes
> On Jul 9, 3:21 pm, winterwolfes <timothymstew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've had this coin since I was a kid. My grandfather gave it to me, I
> > think. I've scoured the internet many times trying to figure out what
> > it is but have never had any luck. A friend of mine told me about the
> > group and said that maybe someone could help. It seems to be gold or
> > bronze and I can't make out any of the script on it. It has a shield
> > one side and on the other some scroll work with what looks like a
> > bunch of arrows.
>
>
> > It maybe nothing but a replica. But I've always wondered about it.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> My eyes don't want to bring the legend in focus, but there's something
> about the look of this that says Spain (Castille or Aragon) about the
> time of Ferdinand and Isabella (c.1480). If so, yes, replicas exist.
> A genuine coin would be a worthwhile find. I cannot make any kind of
> judgement about yours. Look at the edge to see if there is a seam
> where two halves have been fused together.
>
> If anybody has a better idea, please chime in. This ID could be
> entirely wrong. I don't have a book covering this era, I seem to
> remember having read about a similar piece, a replica (I have one
> somewhere), on the Internet two or three years ago. If you can get
> your eyes to pick up on where the inscription/lettering starts, I
> think you should be able to make out FERD YSABEL or something like
> that. My eyes can't pick up a starting point and that's why I really
> gotta be tentative here because you CAN read the legend when your eyes
> pick up the style. The gentlemen of the Chicago Coin Club helped to
> convince me that my piece was simply a replica.
>
> oly
I'll have to take a closer look tonight when I get home from work.
Though I've looked pretty closely at the edge of the coin before and
do not recall seeing any seem but I am not looking with a trained eye.
I'll also look to see if I can decipher an FERD YSABEL.
How would I go about finding out for sure? That would truly be
something!
Tim
.
winterwolfes
>
> > I've had this coin since I was a kid. My grandfather gave it to me, I
> > think. I've scoured the internet many times trying to figure out what
> > it is but have never had any luck. A friend of mine told me about the
> > group and said that maybe someone could help. It seems to be gold or
> > bronze and I can't make out any of the script on it. It has a shield
> > one side and on the other some scroll work with what looks like a
> > bunch of arrows.
>
>
> > It maybe nothing but a replica. But I've always wondered about it.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> My eyes don't want to bring the legend in focus, but there's something
> about the look of this that says Spain (Castille or Aragon) about the
> time of Ferdinand and Isabella (c.1480). If so, yes, replicas exist.
> A genuine coin would be a worthwhile find. I cannot make any kind of
> judgement about yours. Look at the edge to see if there is a seam
> where two halves have been fused together.
>
> If anybody has a better idea, please chime in. This ID could be
> entirely wrong. I don't have a book covering this era, I seem to
> remember having read about a similar piece, a replica (I have one
> somewhere), on the Internet two or three years ago. If you can get
> your eyes to pick up on where the inscription/lettering starts, I
> think you should be able to make out FERD YSABEL or something like
> that. My eyes can't pick up a starting point and that's why I really
> gotta be tentative here because you CAN read the legend when your eyes
> pick up the style. The gentlemen of the Chicago Coin Club helped to
> convince me that my piece was simply a replica.
>
> oly
The thing that keeps throwing me off with this coin is the side with
the arrows on it (not the shield side). All other Spanish coins I have
seen either have a cross or a bust on the side opposite the shield. I
can't find anything that remotely resembles the scroll work and bunch
of arrows like are on this coin.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
It seems to me that the arrows and cipher are some kind of badge of
the Hapsburg family, but that might be a bit too early. You also have
to realize that Spain had been reunited (under the personal rules of
Ferdinand and Isabella) for the first time since Roman times & they
were still working out lots of the heraldry, etc.
See the first coin (4 reales) on this link:
http://www.newworldtreasures.com/cobs.htm
It is similar to your piece, not exact by any means.
oly
oly
Mr. Jaggers
There is a coin with very similar motifs pictured here:
http://www.fuenterrebollo.com/faqs-numismatica/Banco-Espana/menu.html
James
Mr. Jaggers
Well, this is one of those infernal split-screen websites. What you'll have
to do is to click on XVI at the left, and it'll take you to the page where I
found the picture.
James
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Also, links:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Coin-Collecting-2297/Old-coin-looks-lead-2.htm
http://www.taylor.edu/dotAsset/34237.pdf
See Page three!!! It is wasy to pick out the Ferd & Isab on this one.
Again, your coin is not exact similar, so I gotta hedge...
I found all these links by googling the words "Ferdinand Isabella coin
arrows"
oly
Bob
> winterwolfes wrote:
> > I've had this coin since I was a kid. My grandfather gave it to me, I
> > think. I've scoured the internet many times trying to figure out what
> > it is but have never had any luck. A friend of mine told me about the
> > group and said that maybe someone could help. It seems to be gold or
> > bronze and I can't make out any of the script on it. It has a shield
> > one side and on the other some scroll work with what looks like a
> > bunch of arrows.
>
> > I have a picture of the coin posted here:
> >http://www.coinscatalog.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=626&d=...
>
> > It maybe nothing but a replica. But I've always wondered about it.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> There is a coin with very similar motifs pictured here:
>
> http://www.fuenterrebollo.com/faqs-numismatica/Banco-Espana/menu.html
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
If this coin is not silver (it doesn't appear to be), it is certainly
a modern (post-1960) unmarked replica. These copies were made, along
with others, as promotional giveaways, with corresponding writeups
(e.g., "Coin of Ferdinand and Isabella, patrons of Columbus, etc.").
Originals in silver are thin (this looks to be thick) and are not rare
or particularly expensive. I haven't seen one offered recently, but
it shouldn't be difficult to locate one on eBay or VCoins, or a good
European auction.
Bob
Mr. Jaggers
It's probably safe to say that for every genuine medieval coin there are
hundreds, maybe thousands, of replicas. This one could have even been a
premium in a box of cereal way back when.
James
winterwolfes
>
> http://www.taylor.edu/dotAsset/34237.pdf
>
> See Page three!!! It is wasy to pick out the Ferd & Isab on this one.
>
> Again, your coin is not exact similar, so I gotta hedge...
>
> I found all these links by googling the words "Ferdinand Isabella coin
> arrows"
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow, Oly, I am impressed. Great searching. Looking at these, this is
definitely a match for my coin. Seeing where it says Regina CAST and
Fernidad on the coin on that site, I was able to decipher it on my
coin now.
However like Bob said, my coin is not silver so maybe it really is
just from a cereal box. How would I go about finding out for sure?
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Isabel was the the Queen of Castille (Regina = Queen, CAST = Castille)
and Ferdinand was the King of Aragon. Spain was, at that point in
time, a "personal union" resulting from their marriage.
I don't have an easy answer to getting somebody to say yea or nay on
authenticity, If you live near Chicago, Mr. Bob Leonard (who posted
above) and several other highly learned members of the Chicago Coin
Club can be found at Chicago area coin shows, especially at the
Chicago International Coin Fair held each April. I would say that Mr.
Leonard is the "first among equals" in that group and I would believe
whatever he told me about a coin from the late Middle Ages. If you're
not near Chicago, I am at a loss.
oly
winterwolfes
I am in NJ. Sometimes I get to travel through Chicago. Maybe one day
my travel time will coincide with a coin show and I can stop by.
Thanks everyone for your help. Its been very interesting to learn
about this, If anything its an interesting replica to have I guess
with a good story behind it.
Mr. Jaggers
Bob normally mans the ANS table during the Chicago International Coin Fair,
and he is always willing to talk coins. This year marked my 30th
consecutive attendance at that show, and I cannot praise it enough.
James
Bob
>
> - Show quoted text -
Weigh it. Then go to the website of the American Numismatic Society
and search the collection for Ferdinand and Isabella "real" (there are
1 and 2 reales, probably other denominations too), and compare weights
of genuine examples to yours. Sorry I don't have time just now to do
this for you.
Bob
Peter
>
> - Show quoted text -
I seem to remember that 8 Reales was about 27 gm of Ag (similar to
USD). Reales at various times were issued as 1/2, 1, 2, 4 and 8.
There may have been others. Since the value was based on the amount
of Ag. it should be that the weight of the coins was roughly in that
proportion (but I don't have a reference at hand).
Searching the ANA web site (money.org) with, Ferdinand and Isabella
real, I found nothing. Searching for, Reyes Católicos, produced
nothing. I got lots of responses to real; lots of responses to
reales, but not much on topic.
Another source says the Real is silver of 3.35 grams (seems
consistent, but I forget the purity) it also mentions a half and
quarter Real. It also mentions 1/6 Real as equal to a Stuyver (Dutch
5c piece from Spanish period).
Peter
>
> - Show quoted text -
Checking this latern with a more familiar source (Las Monedas
Espanolas, Vol.1) the Real is defined as silver, 3.35 gram and valued
at 34 Marevedis from 1497 but in some other epochs at 36 Marevedis.
(p. 402).
Until 1474 it seems to have been defined as 76 Reales to the Mark
(according to some authorities, 249 gm. Ag.). On this basis it would
seem to be about 3.28 gm Ag.
Each of this is not far from 3.35 grams.
The version of Krause & Mishler I have only goes back to 1600. Their
earliest Reales are shown as 3.4335 grams of 93% Ag. Again, pretty
close.
Looking at the coin the OP showed, it is hard to decide what it is. I
have seen similar things also in the low countries and think that some
coins made there may have that bunch of arrows, as well. I can't find
the reference, just now. The photos are not so good and without a
weight or some idea of the metal (it looks like copper - sort of) it
is hard to say more. The Spanish Marevedis was generally copper
around then, but I see no Marevedis that has the same pattern.
Consequently, the suspicion that it might be a Real is fairly strong.
Just from an impression of the picture the proportions look a bit more
like 2 Reales than 1/2, 1 or 4. Even so, I do not see marks to the
left or right of the shield that correspond to those shown in (Las
Monedas Espanolas, Vol.1).
Looking at the rough values shown coins of 2 Reales from the period of
the Reyes Catolicos could be worth somewhere around 100 Euros (+/-)
depending on condition and specific coin. I rejected an offer to
purchase a 4 Reales from the period in what appeared to be new
condition for 1000 Euros (basically, I wasn't sure that it wasn't
new).
winterwolfes
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter - Thanks for such a thorough response. I had kind of given up
and just assumed that it was a replica but maybe I shouldn't give up
on it so easily. I'm not sure what it is made out of but I will weigh
it and see what I get.