1909 VDB DDO
Thomas A.
picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T, and Y.
I think the fine line we didn't want to cross over variety overkill is
behind us. I have little doubt that with sufficient magnification, great
optics and electronics we will be able to classify each and every coin as
its own unique variety. Oh, bountiful joy. Not.
Jim Menning
"Thomas A." <sp...@noXQJZspam.org> wrote in message
news:ytidnSBFCct49H_X...@earthlink.com...
> Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of LIBERTY picture.
> Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T, and Y.
>
>
Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph, I wonder if what
you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin
or the inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.
Jim Menning
"Jim Menning" <jmenni...@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hbttqu$ake$1...@news.albasani.net...
Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in the zoomed version
above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be obvious in the full obverse image,
making me think that's not what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem
to have something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here on this
version that isn't likely a camera aberration?
Thomas A.
Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is classified as
FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA coin is a PCGS MS64.
On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches across) I can't see the
doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do
see the lower loop of the B and the loop of the R with something extra going
on that you mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.
We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is not an
exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a buck.
Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty bucks.
Ira
> Jim Menning wrote:
> >news:hbttqu$ake$1...@news.albasani.net...
>
> >> "Thomas A." <s...@noXQJZspam.org> wrote in message
You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?
The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been a
coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a 5
star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry Picker's
guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die variety, with
doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of 1909 in the date.
If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only service, a
large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples have
been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in the PCGS
image on their site.
It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors. Any
doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is not
necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or major
variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon die
varieties of large cents are of no additional value to collectors,
although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large
cent auctions have proven that again and again.
The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining. I'm
still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve. eBay's
insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as significant boosts
in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue for the higher value
coins.
Ira
Bruce Remick
"Ira" <ir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:faded6b8-bec5-4100...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Ira
_________________
Frome what I see, PayPal is still an "option". Many sellers state in their
description that they will take all kinds of payment and their auctions
aren't cancelled. The only thing different for sellers with the latest rule
changes is that thay HAVE to accept PayPal, although I have run across
numerous auctions that still say "Sorry, no PayPal." As long as PayPal is
more convenient for the bidder, most usually will opt for it. As a seller,
I still have to wait for the bidder to transmit the payment and for it to
clear my account so I can have access to it. Not much time difference from
a check or MO, but a bit more security.
I agree that the PayPal fees might just be the "straw" for some dealers who
feel they're getting "feed" to death using eBay. Still, unlike you, many
dealers don't get to major shows and will look to eBay as a means for
unloading slow stock ,the exposure of which otherwise might be at the mercy
of a curious showcase button-pusher at the shop.
Thomas A.
A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential variety
whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still somewhat arbitrary
7X magnification for validity has gone well beyond the bounds of sensible
delineation. This is not "just past" naked-eye it, is seven times beyond
it.
On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins demonstrate
this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to proclaim that a new,
and by implication, important or in some way meaningful numismatic specimen
has been found stretches my sense of believability. I see it as nothing
more than another way to coerce money out of collectors whose wallet has
already been stressed by the congnoscenti telling us what we should find
important.
For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I own an
example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and variety cents,
all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a barely acceptable
stretch for my sensibilities and I find this example to be beyond
reasonable.
I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent numismatists
who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it necessary that at this
point we begin to question whether our love for the hobby has driven us to
seek that which simply does not exist.
Thomas A.
As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by comparing
Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins. The difference
between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or any other 19th century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this hunting
of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.
The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon and
others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite hands on
approach to their art of coin producing. This is further exemplified by a
majority of collectors of the older Federal and Colonial coppers, myself
included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be able to touch them and to feel
their history and uniquness.
I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern coins
and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating field of
study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back and make sure
that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing chant that these minimal
varieties are important in any numismatic way. They generate money, period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without this
variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to
play that game and those who profit by it. For us as numismatists to give
this sort of behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and
nodding along as if we believe this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.
Ira
Object all you like, Tom.
Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.
People can collect what they wish and what interests them. I don't
happen to personally like high grade MS-69 and MS-70 Mint mass
produced commemoratives or bullion coins as collectibles, but many
others do. So what? To each his own.
Tom, you started this thread by belittling the 1909 VDB DDO in the
eBay auction. Just suck it up and move on.
Ira
Mr. Jaggers
Hey, I've got an idea! I'm surprised no one has ever thought of this
before, but here it is: Everybody collect what he likes, what affords him
pleasure in a world largely bereft of pleasure, what provides him
entertainment, diversion, education, and camaraderie, and do it without
denigrating the numismatic tastes of another collector. No, wait, that
would just never work, let's just fling brickbats at each other and maintain
that great, time-tested tradition of our hobby.
James the Catapult Master
Bruce Remick
_______________
Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on a one
dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a fool by most
other collectors, and likely has never had to worry where his next hundred
grand was coming from.
Mr. Jaggers
That's not the guy who lives over in East Kumquat, is it?
> People can collect what they wish and what interests them. I don't
> happen to personally like high grade MS-69 and MS-70 Mint mass
> produced commemoratives or bullion coins as collectibles, but many
> others do. So what? To each his own.
I think that observation is borne out by the wide variety of collecting
interests expressed in this newsgroup. Ac-cen-chu-ate the positive, say I!
> Tom, you started this thread by belittling the 1909 VDB DDO in the
> eBay auction. Just suck it up and move on.
I'm glad this topic came up, as I have been oblivious to this Lincoln
variety. The proliferation of numismatic research, plus the books and
articles it generates, keep this hobby young and vibrant. I don't have to
collect everything to appreciate the scholarship that has been done in areas
where I don't collect, which far outnumber those that I do collect.
James the Tentmaker
Mr. Jaggers
Well, there *are* people like that, you know. I'm certainly not going to
sit around crying in my cheap beer because they can do it and I can't. As
far as that goes, I would surmise that I would be considered a damned fool
by "most" (virtually a meaningless term, thanks to 21st century politics)
other collectors because of my oddball collecting interests. And, I
suspect, so would you.
James the Tipler
Thomas A.
Charming sentiment. I've stated my viewpoint on this and you have stated
yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah...anybody can collect whatever they want. Just
don't try and impress me with the significance of these discoveries that
were somehow missed for a hundred years of numismatic scrutiny. One hundred
years of numismatic scrutiny.
I'll go "suck it up" now and move on. You go suck whatever you want.
Mr. Jaggers
Oh, dear.
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hc05b...@enews1.newsguy.com...
The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably would
not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene price somebody
paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958 DDO Lincoln many of our
peers probably would consider us fools, with good reason, but not at all
because of our collecting interests, no matter how "oddball".
Mr. Jaggers
The same paradigm that governs world news (if it bleeds, it leads, man bites
dog, Cubs win world series) also governs numismatic news. Your point?
Speaking only for myself, I collect for my own enjoyment, and care not a
whit what anybody thinks of me for doing it.
James the Fool
The Giant Brain
news:GGMEm.31911$eJ4...@newsfe07.iad...
> Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on a one
> dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a fool by most
> other collectors, and likely has never had to worry where his next hundred
> grand was coming from.
I agree, it's ludicrous to spend that type of money for a modern die variety.
A fool and his money...
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
>>
>> The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably
>> would not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene
>> price somebody paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958
>> DDO Lincoln many of our peers probably would consider us fools, with
>> good reason, but not at all because of our collecting interests, no
>> matter how "oddball".
>
> The same paradigm that governs world news (if it bleeds, it leads, man
> bites dog, Cubs win world series) also governs numismatic news. Your
> point?
Today, money usually makes coin news. Not the coin itself. The lead
stories in the numismatic pubs typically tout the high price brought by the
latest rarity. Even the new owner is often anonymous. Few care in whose
collection the coin now resides, just the price it sold for. If the same
rarity was traded between two collectors, there likely would be no news to
report. If that rare large cent changed hands between two collectors
instead of selling at auction for over a million bucks, it would hardly make
a news ripple.
>
> Speaking only for myself, I collect for my own enjoyment, and care not a
> whit what anybody thinks of me for doing it.
I doubt there are many people who DO care about what others collect.
Likewise, few collectors care about what others might think of them, or they
never would have begun collecting whatever they collect. What WOULD raise
eyebrows would be news about a collector who paid $125,000 for a 1958 penny
that wasn't struck quite right, while coin dealers' junk boxes might contain
BU 50% offcenter 1958 pennies priced at five bucks. But, like you say, the
$125k buyer probably doesn't really care a whit.
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:hc06n...@enews5.newsguy.com...
>
>>>
>>> The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably
>>> would not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene
>>> price somebody paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958
>>> DDO Lincoln many of our peers probably would consider us fools, with
>>> good reason, but not at all because of our collecting interests, no
>>> matter how "oddball".
>
>
>>
>> The same paradigm that governs world news (if it bleeds, it leads,
>> man bites dog, Cubs win world series) also governs numismatic news. Your
>> point?
>
> Today, money usually makes coin news. Not the coin itself. The lead
> stories in the numismatic pubs typically tout the high price brought
> by the latest rarity. Even the new owner is often anonymous. Few
> care in whose collection the coin now resides, just the price it sold
> for. If the same rarity was traded between two collectors, there
> likely would be no news to report. If that rare large cent changed
> hands between two collectors instead of selling at auction for over a
> million bucks, it would hardly make a news ripple.
And the reason for that is that it would be via private treaty, the
operative word being private. Private treaties have an annoying habit of
avoiding the bright lights. That's how rare coins can disappear for
generations before eventually surfacing again.
>> Speaking only for myself, I collect for my own enjoyment, and care
>> not a whit what anybody thinks of me for doing it.
>
> I doubt there are many people who DO care about what others collect.
Your comments show that *you* care, otherwise, why bring any of this up?
> Likewise, few collectors care about what others might think of them,
> or they never would have begun collecting whatever they collect. What
> WOULD raise eyebrows would be news about a collector who paid
> $125,000 for a 1958 penny that wasn't struck quite right, while coin
> dealers' junk boxes might contain BU 50% offcenter 1958 pennies
> priced at five bucks. But, like you say, the $125k buyer probably
> doesn't really care a whit.
In the eyes of the general, non-numismatic public, that DDO coin is no more
but no less important than an 1804 dollar or 1913 nickel. The public sale
at big hammer makes sudden impact, then the effects quickly taper off to
near zero before the next big news splash happens. Again, all this
posturing proves nothing. But, it's getting sleepy out, and as for my
posture, it will soon be supine. Zzzzzzz........
z............z....
Ira
I missed an important point about the coin in the eBay auction, and
one which I think others are apt to make as well. The MS 65 rd 1909
VDB in the auction is the FS 1102, which although has some elements if
the obverse doubled, the doubling is quite minimal, and the $6500 PCGS
Price Guide value the seller quotes is for the FS 1101 aka FS 012. The
one in the auction has a Price Guide value of $1500, not $6500. In
fact, the one in the auction cannot be accepted into the PCGS major
varity Lincoln set, as it's considered a minor variety.
I'll notify seller if this fact, but I doubt he'll change the
auction.
Ira
Mr. Jaggers
All this discussion makes me wonder how many people 1) have any idea how
many of these "minor" varieties have been catalogued by specialists and 2)
how many people shoot off their mouths about it when they have no knowledge
of the existence of the related reference books, let alone ownership of
them. The problem can be compounded when a given variety is given one
designation by one source and a different one by another.
Finally, Ira, when I look at the PCGS price guide for 1909 VDB DDO, I see
three lines - one for a brown, one for a red/brown, and one for a red, but
none of them with any indication of which "FS" number is involved. Clicking
on the PCGS reference number reveals nothing. Where are you finding the
$1500 PCGS price guide listing for FS 1102 specifically?
James the Book Collector
Ira
wrote:
James, just go onto the PCGS web site, choose cert verification in the
list on the left of the home page, and type in the cert number of the
1909 VDB DDO in the auction. The result will show you that it's the FS
1102 and will also show a value of $1500. That's a new feature of cert
verification.
Ira
Mr. Jaggers
Well, I muss say, that is one circuitous path, and not at all obvious except
to one in the know. In my view, if PCGS is going to have a price guide
online, then it should show *all* variants on the main page instead of
having values buried as this one is, where few would think to look. In the
absence of this, how can one reasonably justify any critique of the eBay
merchant?
James the Evenhanded
Ira
I agree with you James. I know mistakes are made with not only this
variety but with others. I see other dealers figuratively buried in MS
65 Rd 1972 DDOs that they thought were one of the varity 1s only
discover their great buy was not so terrific when the coin turned out
to be a lesser variety with only minor doubling on a couple of
elements.
BTW, the lister of that 1909 VDB DDO wrote me back thanking
me for the information. He bought it for
$2500 having
made the same mistake. He just reduced his price on eBay from $2995 to
$1495. An honorable man.
ira
Made the same mistake.