Liberty Dollars may be subject to seizure as "contraband"
mazorj
According to Coin World, Liberty Dollars may now be subject to seizure as
contraband.
"The U.S. Attorney's Office that prosecuted NORFED founder Bernard von
NotHaus states that individuals owning Liberty Dollars could have them
confiscated, even if they are just holding them in their collection or
displaying them for educational purposes, a reversal of earlier comments
from the same office. In addition, a U.S. Secret Service official stated
that while he could not offer a formal ruling, he suggested that Secret
Service agents would be duty-bound to confiscate the medallions once
marketed as an alternative currency before the arrest and conviction of von
NotHaus on federal charges, including counterfeiting.
"Concerns about the possible confiscation of the medallions led ANA
officials to reject a collector's request to exhibit his collection of
Liberty Dollars during the recently concluded ANA World's Fair of Money."
- Coin World
Bremick
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:j3gaak$feq$1...@dont-email.me...
I suppose this will be touted as one way of creating jobs-- a requirement to
hire hundreds of new secret Service agents to research and scour the
countryside for homes with one or more Liberty Dollars hidden away. What on
earth would we do without this level of federal protection?
Wookie
"mazorj" wrote in message news:j3gaak$feq$1...@dont-email.me...
Frank Provasek
> Change you can believe in.
>
It was the Bush regime that conducted the raid on the Liberty Dollar
facilities in 2007.
The indictment was signed by Henry M. Paulson, Secretary of the
Treasury and
Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States,
mazorj
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:35ff0fdc-d4a3-4ee3...@l2g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
===============================
You have to wonder at how many times Obama gets blamed for so many things
when in reality they were initiated under Bush or prior administrations.
Sometimes it's a deliberately concocted lie, sometimes (as in this case)
it's because Obama haters won't spend two minutes fact checking before they
dump on him for something that their beloved Shrub administration did.
Bremick
You're right of course, but perhaps the current administration could (or
could have) reversed a decision it might not (?) agree with. Letting this
fiasco continue implies that the Obama administration might have done the
same thing if faced with making a decision. I feel sorry mostly for the
Secret Service on this one.
Jud
> Sometimes it's a deliberately concocted lie, sometimes (as in this case)
> it's because Obama haters won't spend two minutes fact checking before they
> dump on him for something that their beloved Shrub administration did.
I am not an Obama hater, more like an Obama disliker, and a Bush
disliker on many points as well. However, I do feel that Bush did a
credible job, not the best mind you, but certainly not the worst.
Given your ongoing political stance, I am just wondering if there is
ANYTHING that you feel Bush did right, or are you just a 'SHRUB'
hater? Not a rhetorical question, just a touch of sarcasm.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
The way the Federales operate nowadays, if they find von nut-job's
Liberty Dollars with your "stuff", they will seize your entire coin
collection and bullion too. That's their M.O. today.
oly
mazorj
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a81f2974-3ee3-41f4...@t20g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
oly
=====================
Really? Got any facts to back that, oly?
Federal *and* local law enforcement can and will seize all kinds of tangible
property up to and including your house in a drug bust. But that's because
there is a specific law that mandates that practice. I don't know of any
law that extends that practice to legitimate, legally held coins and
bullion.
Steve Spradlin
> You have to wonder at how many times Obama gets blamed for so many things
> when in reality they were initiated under Bush or prior administrations.
>
> Sometimes it's a deliberately concocted lie, sometimes (as in this case)
> it's because Obama haters won't spend two minutes fact checking before they
> dump on him for something that their beloved Shrub administration did.
The Republicans want the kick-down-doors, shoot first ask questions
later,
law and order, "you are either with us, or with the terrorists" when
they are in power,
and are only concerned about civil liberties abuses when the Democrats
are in power.
mazorj
"Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:j3im6u$k9g$1...@dont-email.me...
I wouldn't. It's not like they're going to do house-to-house raids or body
cavity searches of coin dealers and collectors.
I'm fairly sure it will be pretty much like the "in plain sight" rule.
Suppose a police officer responds to, say, a domestic altercation and sees a
bag of MJ lying out in plain sight. The drugs get seized and it becomes a
drug bust even though it didn't start that way. I take it to mean that if a
Secret Service agent comes across Liberty Dollars in the normal course of
duties, they will be seized pursuant to enforcement of the legal
categorization of them as contraband. And since it's based on a criminal
prosecution where the "perpetrator's" coining of the LDs was deemed to be
illegal, I don't know that he can make that go away by administrative fiat.
Even if he does have the legal authority to do that, you would be putting
the Obama administration in a lose-lose situation. Here he's faulted for
enforcing the law, but if federal LEOs are ordered to ignore LDs, he gets
faulted for not enforcing the law. (Yes, I can see the hysterical,
overblown e-mails that would be concocted by Obama haters for the latter.
"Obama orders law enforcement to ignore counterfeit money, further proof
that he intends to undermine the American dollar as part of his plan to
destroy free enterprise and America as we know and love it.")
mazorj
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e75e0aa0-6eb6-41a4...@p37g2000prp.googlegroups.com...
========================
From time to time, Bush did the right thing. An example that every American
can take pride in is his forceful caveats after 9/11 telling us not to blame
the attack on Muslims or the Islam faith. Speaking out that way at the
right moment with the morally correct message did require some political
courage. Given the hysteria sweeping the nation right after the attack, it
would have been politically expedient for him to just remain silent on that
at least until the heat of the moment had passed.
As a gun owner (everything from some nice concealed carry handguns, on up to
one of the left's dreaded "assault rifles") and as a strong supporter of the
right to keep and bear arms, I appreciated the fact that his conservatism
made him resistant to the predations of the gun-grabbing crowd against RKBA.
This may be damning him with faint praise, but even though his conservative
"born again" religious values colored some of his policies and actions, he
was a laid-back religious slacker compared to most of the current leading
candidates for the Republican nomination. They make no bones about, and in
fact openly brag that their actions in government office are strictly
determined by their fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible,mostly based
on the Dominionist movement.
I'm sure that given time to research and remember, there would be a
reasonably long assortment of other things I could mention that IMO Bush got
right or at least didn't get horribly wrong. However, the preponderance of
the really important Bush policies and actions that immediately spring to
mind puts him on my list of one of our worst presidents. (Hence the irony
of blaming Obama for actions initiated under the Bush administration.)
Conversely, while I haven't agreed with everything under the Obama
administration, the preponderance of his policies and actions have been (or
would have been) good for America as a whole. If the Republicans' policies
didn't all reduce to "Just say NO!" and "Make Obama a one-term president
regardless of the cost," his track record would come closer to matching the
expectations of all the Americans who had high hopes when they voted
overwhelmingly for him and against the conservatives' 8-year track record.
You essentially asked not to be pigeon-holed as an unmitigated Bush lover.
Fair enough. So I would ask that you likewise not assume that I'm some kind
of knee-jerk liberal. Every issue should be judged on its own merits, so my
assorted views span the full spectrum. On balance, the span of my views
puts me a bit to the left of the exact middle of the road. I'm obviously
not a conservative as defined by the radical neocons who now rule their
party, but neither am I the bleeding-heart "Obama can do no wrong" sheeple
that you are implying.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
They confiscated Mrs. Hoody-who's ten 1933 Double Eagles with no proof
of any kind of a crime. I hope she has lots more where those came
from.
You're just a tool Mr. Mazor. The Federales must love good citizens
like you. You'd have fit well in Stalin's Russia.
oly
Bremick
I guess that's likely how it would work. But it all seems so frivolous,
considering the liklihood that any domestic search would be apt to yield an
incidental cache of Liberty Dollars lying around. The only LD's likely to
be confiscated probably would be ones flaunted in a public sale or auction.
Hardly even worth the effort to write the law.
>
> Even if he does have the legal authority to do that, you would be putting
> the Obama administration in a lose-lose situation. Here he's faulted for
> enforcing the law, but if federal LEOs are ordered to ignore LDs, he gets
> faulted for not enforcing the law. (Yes, I can see the hysterical,
> overblown e-mails that would be concocted by Obama haters for the latter.
> "Obama orders law enforcement to ignore counterfeit money, further proof
> that he intends to undermine the American dollar as part of his plan to
> destroy free enterprise and America as we know and love it.")
>
I'm glad I'm not in charge
mazorj
oly
==========================
Drunk and posting at 4 a.m., oly? That's pathetic even for you.
If there were no criminal penalties specified, there didn't have to be any
"crime" proven. The mere possession of them was and is illegal. From
Wikipedia:
"Currently, with the exception of the one sold on July 30, 2002, 1933 Double
Eagle coins cannot be the legal possession of any member of the public, as
they were never issued and hence remain the property of the United States
government.
"On October 28, 2010, United States District Court Judge Legrome D. Davis
released a 20-page decision which led to a trial in July. On July 20, after
a 10-day trial-a jury decided unanimously in favor of the United States
government concerning ownership of the ten additional Double Eagles. It was
concluded that Israel Switt illegally obtained the coins from the United
States government and they are still government property."
This wasn't a criminal trial. It was a civil trial over property. This is
pretty much akin to seizing contraband at the border. Every day, thousands
of people going through Customs have banned items seized by Customs agents.
As long as you're not trafficking in contraband, they're not going to do a
criminal prosecution for trying to bring home a banned foodstuff or plant.
They just seize it. And if you try to take it to court to get your (banned)
property back, you're going to lose just as in the case initiated by the
feds for possessing federal property in the form of some gold coins.
And since when is following due process under the Constitution to enforce
laws enacted by Congress a hallmark of "Stalin's Russia"? It's a hallmark
of our democracy and the rule of law.
Anarchists and militias intent on overthrowing the government must love your
government-hating disdain for the law and due process. Sober up and get
some sleep, oly.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, I'm getting ready to go to work. Lots of driving this week.
Sorry about your pathetic assumption.
Your beltway mentality is also pathetic. You are a tool.
When the Checka showwed up at your Moscow apartment building, you no
doubt helped them find the right apartment.
oly
mazorj
oly
==================
So you have nothing to say after I debunked your false characterization of
the coin seizure as a criminal proceeding when it in fact was a civil trial,
and your moronic characterization of due process as Stalinist?
I thought so. All you can do is bluster and sling ridiculous ad hominems at
the messenger.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah yeah, you're totally 100% correct. Everything and everytime.
Carry on.
oly
Paul Ciszek
A couple of things I wonder about...
1) If someone had a bunch of these, is there any way they could get them
melted down legally, and thus at least hold on to the metallic value?
2) Why are other privately manufactured precious metal "rounds" legal to
posess and these not? I it because they bear the word "dollar"?
--
"Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
Mike Benveniste
> 1) If someone had a bunch of these, is there any way they could get them
> melted down legally, and thus at least hold on to the metallic value?
As far as I can tell, no law prohibits you from melting them down before
the Government asks you to surrender them. 18 USC 492 has language in
it allowing the SecTreas to grant petitions for mitigation, and 31 CFR
101 covers such mitigation petitions for _gold_ coins, but I don't know
about recovering silver value.
> 2) Why are other privately manufactured precious metal "rounds" legal to
> posess and these not? I it because they bear the word "dollar"?
It's not clear that the Secret Service has taken an official position on
these things yet. Various officials have may conflicting statements at
different times.
That said, I _think_ any claim by the Government would be based on
the language of 18 USC 486, which, as far as I can tell, is one of the
statutes under which NotHaus was convicted:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000486----000-.html
So the Secret Service _may_ claim that the NotHaus rounds are different
because the jury found that that they were "intended for use as current
money."
--
Mike Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz
Frank Provasek
Rightly or wrongly, the Liberty Dollar organization was targeted for
having the support of a lot of anti-government types -- the ones who
think Timothy McVeigh is a hero, plus the support of members of White
Power groups like Stormfront. Here the Liberty
Dollar is promoted as a way to "Free Yourself from the Jewish Federal
Reserve Bank"
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t76149-4/
In Florida, the Tampa Redemption Center was headed up by Charles
Eidson, an anti-Semite who denounced the "damnable eternal Jews."
Plus the way the "coins" were presented in commerce was CLEARLY
deceptively representing these as legal tender.. Here is part of the
"script"
on how to "spend" these form an archived version of the Liverty Dollar
website:
"Do the Drop".
Ask the merchant to, "Hold out your hand."
RCO immediately does The Drop and says NOTHING. The Merchant is now
holding a big, shiny, beautiful, heavy item. He has never seen it
before. This moment is magical. Don't say ANYTHING. Let the Merchant
savor the moment. Continue to wait… for a full minute or more.
Wait until the Merchant says something. Almost regardless of what he
says, reply with, "This is a Ten Dollar Silver Liberty. It is the glue
that binds the Association together. It is pure silver. The big retail
corporations will not officially accept it, although an occasional
employee, who wants to keep it, does. That means anyone who has
Liberty Dollars will seek out stores in the Association when they want
to spend them, and when you give out Liberty Dollars as change, you
are guaranteeing a return customer for yourself or one of your fellow
Association merchants. The Liberty Dollar is designed to circulate in
the community of Association merchants and customers and NOT be
shipped out to Bentonville, Arkansas or some corporate headquarters."
"This is the new SILVER Liberty Dollar - The ultimate local business
referral currency." Stop talking. Don't say anything. Let the Merchant
continue to ponder the Silver Liberty he is holding and what you said.
You may want to say this sentence again. Later add, "The Liberty
Dollar is legal, just like the other forty private currencies in
circulation in the US, except it is 100% pure silver."
Do not engage the Merchant in any discussions regarding the
government, national debt, value of the US Dollar, political or
monetary problems, etc. UNLESS the Merchant initiates such a
discussion. Answer his questions in the briefest way possible.
When asked if big chains accept it or why they don't accept it, simply
explain, "Because the big box retailers are in bed with the big
bankers. The retailers say that if the banks won't accept it, they
won't accept it. Of course, if you understand the true nature of the
big retailers, you realize that they are mostly owned by the big
bankers, either directly or indirectly."
When asked why the banks won't take it, the obvious reply is, "Because
it is not their money. They want control of the money so they could
depreciate it. Remember we used to have silver in our money, but the
bankers convinced the government to remove it. Once you realize how
they benefit from your use of their money, it is easy to see why they
wanted to remove the silver backing."
Remember the Merchant's primary mission is to "make money". Sure, he
may be concerned about the community good, big box retailers, etc. but
if he is not profitable, he will not be in business. So keep the focus
on the benefits of the Liberty Dollar for his business.
RCO/Associate: "This $10 Silver Liberty is a 'Trade Dollar' that is
designed to circulate in OUR community and boost YOUR business. It is
pure silver - so is has real intrinsic value. It is TEN DOLLARS and
you can use it in place of a $10 bill. The more you use, the more your
business will profit."
Pause. Stop talking. Let the Merchant think about what you said. Give
the Merchant a chance to ask a question. Answer his question,
remembering to KISS. Then immediately retain control of your
presentation.
RCO/Associate: "There are several ways your business can profit with
the Liberty Dollar. Simply offer this Silver Liberty (Do the Drop
again.) as change to your customers. As a member of the Association,
you can get THIS MONEY at a discount and profit when you use it for
change."
RCO/Associate: "But the big benefit to your business is as a 'traffic
builder'. When your customers leave with a big, shiny, beautiful
Silver Liberty, they will invariably show it to their family and
friends. And when asked where they got it, they will mention your
business. Customers will come from other Associates businesses too."
Pause. Again, give the Merchant a chance to ask a question. Answer his
question, remembering to KISS. Then immediately retain control of your
presentation.
If the Merchant asks why the Liberty Dollar is the 'ultimate' local
business referral currency tell them, "Because it is our own money, it
has real value that doesn't depreciate, and circulates for the
advantage of your business and the community. So it is not just you,
trying to grow your business, all the other Merchants will likewise be
giving out this Directory with your name in it too."
RCO/Associate: "The Silver Liberty Dollar is the natural money for
building local commerce. The more it circulates locally, the more
business it creates, bringing merchants and consumers together to
share in the real wealth of the community. Unlike the bank's green
paper, the Liberty Dollar stays in circulation near your business. It
can only be spent with local businesses. And as you would certainly
accept it from your own customers, it is especially good for you."
Give the Merchant a chance to ask a question. Answer his question,
remembering to KISS. Then immediately retain control of your
presentation.
RCO/Associate: "Using the Liberty Dollar is real simple. This is a
Merchant Display and a Merchant Countermat (hold up both) that are
used by all the merchants in the Association. Simply put this on your
counter and offer a Silver Liberty Dollar to your customers in place
of a $10 bill by dropping it into their hands. If you are asked any
questions just tell your customers that it is the new silver money
that is good for the community, and give them a brochure."
Be sure to emphasize to the Merchant that it is not his business to
"sell" the Liberty Dollar. He should simply offer it as change and not
get into any long monetary discussions unless he has the time.
RCO/Associate: "The more you use, the more you will grow your
business, and profit. The $10 Silver Liberty Dollar is available at a
discount so you can profit. There is an introductory discount of 10
percent and we guarantee to buy back any Silver Libertys you do not
use at the same rate. Each $10 Silver Liberty is only $9 and you can't
get $10 for only $9 at your bank! You can call me at any time to
return these beauties - or most likely - to get more. Plus I will
check back with you in two weeks to hear your "success stories" as I
know your customers will love these Silver Libertys for birthday
presents, premiums for their own business… and to protect their
purchasing power! As you know, there are thousands of uses for MONEY!
And on of the most important is 'a story of value'. They are available
in rolls of 25. How many would you like to start with... 5, 10, or a
roll of 25…?"
Then STOP TALKING. Wait until the Merchant tells you how many he
wants. Yes, it is as it a 'currency exchange' it is a 'cash sale'. Be
sure to give the Merchant a receipt to establish the price if it is
necessary for you to buy them back.
After the exchange, show the merchant the Merchant Label and offer to
put it on his door. Explain to him that you will update the Merchant
Directory with his business info and deliver some of the new
Directories as soon as they are printed.
Be sure to thank the Merchant for his support for the local economy
and the Liberty Dollar. Reiterate that you are available for his
questions, and give him your card if you haven't already done so.
Update your Merchant Directory often. As soon as you get five new
Merchants, print and deliver it to ALL your Merchants. Be sure to take
the opportunity to visit with your Merchants and ask for THREE
referrals from each Merchant. Every Merchant knows other Merchants,
and has friends and family in business. Your best leads will come from
your existing Merchants. Be sure to ask for three referrals every time
you visit them.
Call the Liberty Dollar office with your questions, concerns, and
feedback. Change this script to fit your presentation. Share you
successes with the RCO Group so we can all do the best job and enjoy
similar successes. We look forward to hearing from you. Good Luck!
Thank you for your continued support to protect America's money - one
dollar at a time.
Paul Ciszek
In article <f60ace19-89da-4ec9...@t9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Frank Provasek <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote:
>
>Rightly or wrongly, the Liberty Dollar organization was targeted for
>having the support of a lot of anti-government types -- the ones who
>think Timothy McVeigh is a hero, plus the support of members of White
>Power groups like Stormfront.
The also deliberately made their coins look sort of like actual US coins
that have existed at one time or another, put the word "dollars" on them,
and encouraged people to give them out in change without explanation.
Lousy counterfeiting is still counterfeiting.
Gary
Watching the Republican debates with disbelief...the audience cheers
the people killed under Governor
Perry...even though when the appeal board found clear evidence that a
condemned man was innocent,
Perry replaced the board members HE HAD APPOINTED and an innocent man
was killed.
Then the audience cheered the idea of an uninsured man dying...and
booed a gay active duty serviceman
who webcammed in from Iraq...