This is the most absurd thing I have ever seen...
MKW
Again NY politicians are after the National Collector Mint whom we all
know sells, medals, Liberian Coins, etc...some made of pure precious
metal...others plated. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I
personally like the option to buy medals, non-circulating commem
coins, and others from any and all sources..if I like the look and
strike quality.
But to spread all over the news that these are Fake 9-11 Commems is
absurd. Anyone can commemorate anything as long as the theme is not
licensed and the ad does not lie. Just because a product is not
issued by US Mint does not make it fake. If I only bought the items
issues by the US Mint and nothing else, that would make fora super
boring collection. Plus they are only $24.95. The minting cost with
the addition of the flip-up assembly is not cheap. These are made in
Germany for NC Mint.
Bremick
"MKW" <mwelb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:07a340ec-9f7d-4775...@d2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Beside the fact that the "dollar" pictured in your link has to be one of the
biggest pieces of over-hyped, contrived crap in a long time, don't you have
anything else important going on in your life besides salivating over and
defending NCM-produced doodads? Most serious coin collectors would be
embarrassed to own one of these phony, mechanical "tribute" pieces, let
alone defend the company that makes and promotes them with that solemn
announcer, patriotic music, and cleverly crafted, albeit misleading claims.
The whole thing would be laughable if not for the subject matter.
MKW
is. At the price...the level of quality fits. I suppose the US
Mint peg leg commem dollar was better looking?? I dont think so. The
NC Mint items are professionaly minted by some top notch private mints
in the US and Europe. The profit margin on this piece is much less
than that on an I-Phone, common grocery store personal items, Wal-Mart
products etc. But no one attacks them for selling junk.
MKW
collect high value serious historic coins that are professionally
graded etc. Many in the general public like a token of something
interesting but could care less about a MS68 1887 Morgan Dollar.
Personally I like both fields of collecting and appreciate the
multiple options. I dont appreciate politicians legislating what can
and can't be sold just to protect the idiot that sees something round
and gold in a commercial and thinks "high value money" when any slight
research will show the exact truth.
Beanie
"Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:iihh9k$f8l$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Beside the fact that the "dollar" pictured in your link has to be one of the
> biggest pieces of over-hyped, contrived crap in a long time, don't you have
> anything else important going on in your life besides salivating over and
> defending NCM-produced doodads? Most serious coin collectors would be
> embarrassed to own one of these phony, mechanical "tribute" pieces, let alone
> defend the company that makes and promotes them with that solemn announcer,
> patriotic music, and cleverly crafted, albeit misleading claims. The whole
> thing would be laughable if not for the subject matter.
Every effort is made to make potential buyers think this piece of shit
"commemorative dollar" is a US Mint product.
There is nothing on the coin that states its authorizing authority is Liberia.
Not to mention that the quantities of actual gold and silver used is ludicrously
miniscule and of doubtful origin.
I've seen the TV ads and to say that they are misleading is a wild
understatement.
I can't imagine that anybody would want such a piece of crap in their home but
apparently NCM is finding a market for them, which brings to mind the H. L.
Mencken quote "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
American public".
OTOH one would think that with the magnitude & multiplicity of problems facing
the USA our Congress critters would have better things to do.
MKW
articles seem to combine the facts. The Liberian coin is an upsell
when ordering..and the Liberian shield is on the back. I personally
like these promotional Liberian pieces...they do commemorate
historical events. And everyone focuses on the gold. Gold plating
has been done to medals for all of time. Its for decorative purposes
only. By offering a gold plated piece a company is not scamming
someone. What about silver plated serving platters and such...a
common practice. I am not saying the NC Mint piece is a superb
design...but others may do a medal that is nicely done for the topic.
Maybe Franklin Mint who still develops medals...but no longer makes
them. I am sure the US Mint piece for 9/11 that these senators are
pushing will try to force some Liberal design down our throats. Maybe
showing Bin Laden as a hero with more rights than the victims.
Beanie
Your own link sez:
"The coins in question are advertised on the companies' website as a "Liberian
government authorized legal tender coin" clad in 14 mg of pure 24-Karat gold.
Additional design elements include a skyline of the twin towers and silhouette
of the USS New York which the site says are "clad in a total 14 mg .999 pure
silver actually recovered from the vaults beneath the ashes of Ground Zero.""
The back of the "coin" states a value of "one dollar".
If it IS a medal, why the denomination?
If this is NOT a Liberian coin (which it is), then it would be an illegal
attempt to manufacture money.
No MKW, I'm afraid that, as usual, you are appear to be a complete and utter
idiot.
Bob
> "MKW" <mwelbor...@aol.com> wrote in message
I think you two are not looking closely enough at the illustration in
the link: under the eagle, it clearly says "Republic of Liberia" in
raised letters. They are in rather low relief, so I'm not surprised
that you missed it. Thus this is a non-circulating, legal tender, one
dollar COIN of Liberia.
That said, I do not endorse it and have no plans to buy one myself.
As to whether this thing is worth $25, that is up to you.
Beanie
>I think you two are not looking closely enough at the illustration in
the link: under the eagle, it clearly says "Republic of Liberia" in
raised letters. They are in rather low relief, so I'm not surprised
that you missed it. Thus this is a non-circulating, legal tender, one
dollar COIN of Liberia.
On second (close) inspection, I saw the mention of Liberia, so I stand
corrected.
OTOH, I STILL think the coin in question is a butt-ugly piece of crap that isn't
worth the effort it took to manufacture it.
AND, I think the TV ads are deceptive.
I also think that Congress has better things to do than closely monitor the
collector markets, even for exploitive crap like this.
MKW
911anniversaryproof.com/?mid=953795
It is a medal with the FBI reverse. There are three other pieces
being offered as an upsell to this offer once you bite. 1) a pure
silver version of the same medal for a higher price 2) The piece with
the Liberian reverse...becoming a NCLT Coin. 3) A piece with a first
responder reverse...whatever that is.
I am not an idiot...I know my modern exonumia better than most. I
also know exactly who makes this piece for NC Mint and can probably
generate a good guess as to the manufacturing cost of actually
striking two pieces...the coin and the flip part. Siginificantly more
product effort needed than your usual made in China stuff. These
pieces are struck either in USA supporting USA labor...or made in
Germany at one of Europes oldest and best private mints.
The two politicians blasting this piece have some agenda to support
the official US Mint 9/11 medals coming up. It seems that now that
the US Mint has decided it is a collectibles company in the way it
sells coin products, seeks copyright protection for program names,
etc...it is now willing to fight and put down anything seen as
competition.
Bremick
I haven't indicated anything of the sort. Dollar value is moot. I merely
questioned your repeated infatuation and defense here with this one private
mint's products. You now seem to be taking it personally that someone has
challenged the company. Their one particular product you highlighted here
is pure garbage, IMO, and should be an embarrassment to any company which
would call itself a "mint". NCM has designed and produced this ridiculous
flip-up novelty and is pitching it on TV with all the hype and faux
emotional appeals of a street shyster. There are tokens and then there are
tokens. This one is no more than a street corner novelty somehow being
promoted as a sincere "tribute" in association with the 9/11 tragedy.
You're free to collect whatever you want. Hard Times tokens or gas station
giveaway tokens. I don't think you'll gather much sympathy for National
Collector Mint here.
Beanie
> I am not an idiot...
Yeah, you are.
Bremick
Beanie addressed the Liberian issue perfectly. Everyone here focuses on the
gold because the NCM ad itself touts the "gold" feature. Most people
probably would ignore the ad if it simply pointed out some gold-plated or
silver-plated parts, which the doodad apparently has. But by instead using
the embellished pseudo-tech description "clad in 14 mg of pure 24-Karat
gold" the company is attempting to confuse the man on the street into
believing he would be buying something with bullion value. Have you ever
seen a silver plated platter described as being clad with 14mg of pure .999
silver?
MKW
phrases? I think NC Mint usually says plated with 24kt gold. Thats a
factual statement that any company would use. They added the 14 mg
because everyone was whining about the gold content.
Clad=electroplated; 14mg=the actual amount; 24kt gold=exactly what it
is. That phrase is as straight forward as could be. The US Mint
describes modern pennies as being clad with copper alloy...I guess
they are fraudulent too. If anyone gets confused by any of this
marketing they really do not need to be buying anything.
Obviously Beanie thinks anyone is an idiot that does not collect
exactly ywhat he (or she) collects.
MKW
culture and focus on Boy Scout Coins from the US Mint with women on
them (all images on the obverse look like generic humans with no
facial details) Sure sure Journey Scout....but a Rockwell Scouting
image would have been nice.
MKW
everyone. Excedrin Regular vs. Excedrin Migraine...same exact
compnenents, different label, different price. Or cleaners,
especially formulated for " hardwood floors." Toothpaste "extra
whitening///cleans between teeth with micro bubbles." all those
claims are fluff with no direct advanatage between offerings. Or
soapd Dove soap is 1/4 lotion...still dries your skin like any other
soap and water..which is the very nature of what soap..a base...does.
MKW
Mint and Danbury Mint too...much nicer than the NC Mint stuff. DM is
doing these
http://www.danburymint.com/coins/prod/0DC/The-U-S--Presidential-Silver-Commemoratives---One-Troy-Ounce_9154-0021.aspx
DM has raised the price a couple of bucks over the year but initially
they were cheaper than a proof silver eagle from the US Mint...and DM
is a profit making company not subsidized by the gov. The quality and
sculpting is great...the illustrations do not do the medals justice.
oly
> There are many great medallic programs from companies like Franklin
> Mint and Danbury Mint too...much nicer than the NC Mint stuff. DM is
>
> DM has raised the price a couple of bucks over the year but initially
> they were cheaper than a proof silver eagle from the US Mint...and DM
> is a profit making company not subsidized by the gov. The quality and
> sculpting is great...the illustrations do not do the medals justice.
As shown here on several recent occasions, MKW is a frequent
contributing editor to "The Great Big Book of Universal Dildoes and
Other Cheek-Spreading Devices".
The coin market is just now separating the wheat from the chaff
amongst 1960s and 1970s NCLT issues. At least back then, the stuff
often contained PMs. Winners or losers, few of these things are still
in the hands of the original buyers either way.
The things that MKW espouses won't be among the "winners" anytime,
anyplace, come the year 2050, or 2060.
oly
Beanie
> Obviously Beanie thinks anyone is an idiot that does not collect
> exactly ywhat he (or she) collects.
Not at all. I just think a person that makes a statement like:
"I am sure the US Mint piece for 9/11 that these senators are pushing will try
to force some Liberal design down our throats.
Maybe showing Bin Laden as a hero with more rights than the victims."
is, perforce, an idiot.
That and your history on this group convince me that you are an imbecile.
Bremick
> So now it is corrupt and illegal to market a product with flowery
> phrases? I think NC Mint usually says plated with 24kt gold. Thats a
> factual statement that any company would use. They added the 14 mg
> because everyone was whining about the gold content.
> Clad=electroplated; 14mg=the actual amount; 24kt gold=exactly what it
> is. That phrase is as straight forward as could be. The US Mint
> describes modern pennies as being clad with copper alloy...I guess
> they are fraudulent too. If anyone gets confused by any of this
> marketing they really do not need to be buying anything.
>
Pennies are not clad. They're copper-plated. Dimes, quarters, and halves
are clad in layers of copper nickel over copper. You can see the "sandwich"
on the edges. That NCM thingy is plated in metallurgical terms, called clad
maybe in casual talk. NCM seems to want it both ways, combining tech terms
with casual jargon to suit its needs.
I've seen their TV way ad too many times. It says "clad", not plated, and
it also cites the number of mg of 24k gold, as if their target audience will
be able to use this to calculate the bullion value of the piece. They
clearly want to get that magic "24k" in there, although there's probably
less gold involved than in the sheet of gold leaf at Total Crafts. Any gold
or silver present is purely for perceived aesthetic effect and its purity is
irrelevant. They're clearly over-hyping something that has no intrinsic
value as an investment with lawyer-crafted jargon designed to confuse and
imply to the uninformed that it's a good deal. If someone likes the design
with the hokey flip-up thingys, the fact that there's a bit of gold and
silver plating included shouldn't matter.
This piece of crap belongs on the street corner with the Hillary T-shirts
and plastic Empire State buildings.
Bremick
So you agree that the NCM ad is deceptive and misleading, but it's okay
because it happens all the time.
oly
> "MKW" <mwelbor...@aol.com> wrote in message
Well, actually, for accuracy's sake, Hillary T-shirts belong with the
rags cleaning up the little "accidents" in our nation's nursing homes.
But eve in that role, they're more valuable than Liberian phoney coins
with excreable designs!"
oly
Beanie
> This piece of crap belongs on the street corner with the Hillary T-shirts and
> plastic Empire State buildings.
Hey, I have a collection of plastic (and metal) Empire State Buildings!
Frank Provasek
> are clad in layers of copper nickel over copper. You can see the "sandwich"
> on the edges. That NCM thingy is plated in metallurgical terms, called clad
> maybe in casual talk. NCM seems to want it both ways, combining tech terms
> with casual jargon to suit its needs.
>
the word
"clothed" and simply means "covering"
oly
Well, if they didn't come from Franklin Mint or that button factory in
Germany, if they aren't limited edition and come with certificates of
authenticity from the Liberian Treasury, well, them Empire Building
things are just no good!!!
oly
Beanie
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:bb501c5d-75da-40f9...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
clad 1 (kld)
tr.v. clad, clad�ding, clads
1. To sheathe or cover (a metal) with a metal.
2. To cover with a protective or insulating layer of other material.
Frank Provasek
Liberian coin, but
a "non monetary" striking with the FBI emblem used with
authorization.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/03/rise-freedom-consumers-pols-rail-called-coin/
Of course the white trash family that Fox News interviewed "thought"
the money was
going to rebuild the World Trade Center, even though the ad made no
such claim.
The profits after expenses ACTUALLY went to the (gasp)
company owner's seven-bedroom house and a racehorse.
Wow...whatever ANYONE earns and has left after expenses goes to...
whatever they spend it on, right?
Bremick
"Beanie" <b...@ea.ne> wrote in message news:iii7nm$65v$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
What are they "clad" with? At least you're not suggesting we're missing the
boat by not paying more attention to Empire State buildings, especially the
ones with the little flip-up 24k gold clad King Kongs.
MKW
aren't expensive. The ads are also rather tacky. But its still not a
fraud. They will take returns on anything. I did buy a replica 36
proof set from them..the solid silver version and was very impressed
by the quality for $50. I have seen a few sell on Ebay for $100+.
Frank Provasek
>
> What are they "clad" with? At least you're not suggesting we're missing the
> boat by not paying more attention to Empire State buildings, especially the
> ones with the little flip-up 24k gold clad King Kongs.
Technical terms are "solid gold" which means "not hollow" but can be
as little as 41% (10K) actual gold CONTENT
Next lower in quality is "gold filled" which is at least 1/20th "solid
gold" on the outside of the item,
Next lower is "gold plated" which is at least 0.175 microns (µm)
thick.
Terms like gold clad, gold flashed, gold washed, gold layered have no
standardized meanings, except to have SOME small amount of gold.
Bremick
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:bb501c5d-75da-40f9...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
Wrong? In the rcc numismatic world, "Clad" is a term used to describe a
sandwich of metals. As long as NCM wants to describe its thing in
numismatic jargon, it should be expected to use those terms properly. It's
sad that this should even apply to that flip-up thing. The NCM thing is not
clad. NCM likely chose that less common term, instead of more widely
understood "plated" or "coated", to cloud things for its Parade Magazine
audience, the same way they emphasized "pure 24k gold" and ".999 pure
silver".
Looking at the distribution of gold and silver areas on the piece, it seems
odd that the amount of silver and gold plating could both be 14mg as
claimed. But if there is indeed 14mg of gold and 14mg of silver on the
thing, it would contain about 60� worth of gold and one cent worth of
silver. Not even worth scraping it off if you could pick up one for fifty
cents.
The additional hype that the metal was salvaged from beneath the ashes of
the Twin Towers is simply morbid, irrelevant, and an insult to those who
lost their lives on that site.
oly
Give 'em hell Mr. Remick, the Angels (and many of us) are on your
side!!!
oly
If the gold on gold-filled and gold plated stuff were at all valuable,
a lot of it would in fact be thrown in the melting pots.
Bremick
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d86c8bea-8e6a-4b90...@24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
_____________
Oly, I don't know how to tweet, text, blog, or friend people, so protracted
keyboard debates on rcc every so often serve as my only E-entertainment. I
WILL try to get out more--- If I can ever see my lawn again.
And please, you don't have to call me Mr. Nobody's Mr. here. It reminds
me of my youth when most letters and cards mailed to children were usually
addressed to Master _______. Very proper, don't you know.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Springpatch had the largest snowfall in at least a decade on Tuesday/
Wednesday and Thursday. We will get several three to four inch
snowfalls each year, but this time we got aprroximately 12 inches of
snow, and the actual ground cover really seemed to be at least that
much.
Because of several 35 degree Fahrenheit days last week, there was
almost nothing left on the ground from prior snows when this one
started.
It started at 10:30 AM CST on Tuesday 2/1/2011 and it really didn't
fully end until sunrise on Thursday.
As of Friday night, most things (roads, driveways, walkways) are
passable. But our local snow crews took far longer than normal.
Springpatch knows how to handle snow, and driving on snow and ice is
something that our Central Illinois drivers do pretty well at (our
local drivers' worst fault is a strong tendency to run red lights).
After several angioplasties and stents in the last three yaers, I
don't shovel snow anymore.
At least that's my excuse!!!
oly
Bremick
_____________
I did think of you when I actually heard Springfield mentioned during the
latest "big one". In my own Springfield (VA), we had escaped most of the
storms that came across the country or up the east coast. But we did
finally get caught with 8 inches of wet snow last week and much of it is
still on the ground. We don't do too well with snow around here, but as I'm
retired, I usually don't have to go anywhere. I did shovel what I could
off the driveway until my back started barking. My neighbor has always been
kind enough to watch out for me out there, so he shooed me inside and
finished up the drive and sidewalk while I nursed my back and the wife made
brownies for him. Although I always appreciate his help and concern, I
usually feel a bit embarassed when the weather improves and I begin playing
several hundred local and nationwide tournament softball games each year
with our 70+ team. Then the snow will come again. Shoveling snow is
different.
Reid Goldsborough
> http://www.silvercoinstoday.com/us-mint-issues-consumer-alert-on-911-commemorative-dollar/103713/
>
> Again NY politicians are after the National Collector Mint whom we all
> know sells, medals, Liberian Coins, etc...some made of pure precious
The National Collector's Mint (note: this is the correct name, not what
you wrote) is criticized from inside and outside of numismatics, from
all I've seen, primarily as a result of the way it sells its replicas
and medals. The company's ads have given the impression that the company
was producing legal tender issues of the United States or U.S.
government-sponsored medals. When selling replicas, the company doesn't
make it clear in its ads that it's selling replicas, instead using
euphemisms for this such as "clad proofs." And some regard the company
as shamelessly profiting from a national tragedy.
The New York Supreme Court found the company guilty of fraud, false
advertising, and deceptive business practices, and the company was
ordered to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties,
specifically $379,510. The company has also been forced by the courts to
refund or cancer orders worth more than $2 million.
Again, it's not that the company is selling replicas or medals or the
quality of them, but its marketing tactics. I personally wouldn't touch
any of the medals it sells regarding 9/11 because of the way it sells
them and the dubious at best claim that the silver the pieces are plated
with came from a bank fault found under debris at Ground Zero. The
company has claimed it can prove this, but according to the newspaper
the Arizona Republic, it refused to provide this proof when asked
(http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0824biz-goldwater0824.html).
Personally, I have four of its replicas as part of the exonumia I have
in my collection, an all-silver replica of an 1804 dollar, a
silver-plated replica of an 1804 dollar, a miniature all-gold replica of
a High Relief Saint, and an oversize gold-plated replica of a 1933
Saint. All are engraved and struck with a high degree of
professionalism. Each was inexpensive. The controversy surrounding the
company behind them adds to their interest, to me. All a part of
numismatics, the good and the bad.
--
Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
Beanie
So any sales tactic, no matter how misleading, is OK with you?
Bremick
"Reid Goldsborough" <reidgol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4efc6u....@news.alt.net...
I have to agree with everything you've said. It's all about their marketing
tactics, specifically regarding that 9/11 piece. If they had simply
promoted it for what it was, rather than embellishing its description with
claims of historically relevant precious metals and emotional significance,
it probably wouldn't sell but the company wouldn't have faced so much grief.
Were the replicas you bought advertised without the hype?
MKW
a few pieces from NC Mint...and I do not think they were mass promoted
with as much hype. I have the 2004 Northern Mariana Islands Freedom
Tower Dollar that they were sued over....at the end of the day NM
Islands can issue non circulating legal tender coins...as could I or
anyone else. But all the public saw was "Dollar" "Official
Government Release" etc With that said...the design was cool, and
its neat to have such a controversial piece...perhaps the only
Northern Mariana islands coin???? not sure They also sell at a
premium on Ebay...so there are people that want these items. I
still have an issue with the Gov being over protective of things that
are really not causing harm....the move to report any sales over a
certain amount. Just to round up more cash to pay for handout
programs.
Reid Goldsborough
> Were the replicas you bought advertised without the hype?
The replicas they sold back then, 2002 and 2003, were sold similarly to
how they sell replicas today -- without using the word "replica." Back
then they also avoided other language that clearly communicated that
these were replicas, reproductions, or copies. But if you read the fine
print today, at least they include the word "copy." And today, unlike
before, they make it clear that what they sell is not affiliated with
the U.S. government or U.S. Mint.
Check out their Morgan "tribute proofs":
http://www.nationalcollectorsmint.com/category.jsp?path=-1|6897&id=1698
MKW
because IMO the ship clutters the design. Also, flip coins look good
on paper but you have to essentially damage the coin to stand the
piece up.
oly
You're freakin' daft, nuttier than a fruitcake.
oly
Peter
> "Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cd59e6f5-7093-4f27...@k18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >I see nothing false in the ad for this product, which now is NOT a
> > Liberian coin, but
> > a "non monetary" striking with the FBI emblem used with
> > authorization.
>
>
> > Of course the white trash family that Fox News interviewed "thought"
> > the money was
> > going to rebuild the World Trade Center, even though the ad made no
> > such claim.
>
> > The profits after expenses ACTUALLY went to the (gasp)
> > company owner's seven-bedroom house and a racehorse.
>
> > Wow...whatever ANYONE earns and has left after expenses goes to...
> > whatever they spend it on, right?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The supposed victim may have some rights if they complain to their
credit card company, promptly. The rest of the claims sound a lot
like buyer's remorse (a common ailment when buying coins).
Bremick
Gaaaak! It's still alive! I just saw that TV ad again a few minutes ago.
On the History International channel no less. The violin music, the solemn
voice, the precious pure silver recovered from beneath the ashes, the pure
24k gold, and oh the profound symbolism. And the implication that the Dept
of Justice is behind the project. Amazing, too, how those little silver
pieces flip up all by themselves, or maybe with a remote control. Unless I
missed it, no mention of Liberia, Seychelles, or Cayman Islands. Only
$29.95 plus s&h. Sorry, a limit of course of five per household. It did
show on the screen at the end of the ad that it is not a product of the US
Mint. But by that time, most viewers surely would have left the TV and
picked up the phone to call NCM.