Why should gold stop at $1500?
Ned
Euphoria over bank bailouts and the temporarily buoyant
stock markets is masking a sober reality.
The piper still has to be paid.
One fairly sanguine estimate of the cost of salvaging Wall
Street came Tuesday morning from analysts at Merrill Lynch.
They figure the inflationary effect of all the bank bailout
measures now underway will push gold to $1,500 an ounce and
oil back to $150 a barrel.
The analysts don't offer a timeline, but the way markets
have been jumping around lately it could be any day now.
Perhaps the real question is: why stop at $1,500?
All the world's governments have managed to do so far is to
stop the bleeding from the credit crunch injuries that we
actually know about.
There's still going to be a very nasty recession. And it
will happen simultaneously in most of the developed world.
Fewer people will have jobs. The interest rate on their
adjustable mortgages will be shooting up. There are bound
to be more foreclosures, and more toxic debts.
That doesn't even begin to look at what happens as more
credit card debt goes bad, or the truly enormous
derivatives markets.
For its part, Wall Street has completely lost any
credibility in arguing against increased governmental
spending. They are the first and biggest pigs at the
troughs each day, even if they are being force fed.
And with a U.S. administration that's overseen the biggest
deficits in history about to be replaced by the closest
thing to a socialist government America's ever had,
"stimulus" spending will likely remain high on Washington's
agenda.
Given all that, $1,500 for gold looks more like a floor
than a ceiling in the years to come.
John Galt
> MarketWatch http://atu.ca/009a
>
> Euphoria over bank bailouts and the temporarily buoyant
> stock markets is masking a sober reality.
>
> The piper still has to be paid.
>
> One fairly sanguine estimate of the cost of salvaging Wall
> Street came Tuesday morning from analysts at Merrill Lynch.
> They figure the inflationary effect of all the bank bailout
> measures now underway will push gold to $1,500 an ounce and
> oil back to $150 a barrel.
>
> The analysts don't offer a timeline, but the way markets
> have been jumping around lately it could be any day now.
>
> Perhaps the real question is: why stop at $1,500?
The Third World effect.
JG
oly
> Ned wrote:
> > MarketWatchhttp://atu.ca/009a
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Argentina for sure, Weimar possibly. $1,500. USD is way too low.
oly
BuffetHater
gold
stocks against my better judgment.
Gold has done shit in the face of collapse . . . . but, get this,
Silver
collapsed under the load of fear and is down 50%.
GOLD ALWAYS LEADS SILVER ON THE WAY UP AND SILVER LEADS
GOLD ON THE WAY DOWN!!!!
Check it out. I am nervous as hell, shorting gold stocks with tite
stops.
Frank Provasek
created out of nothing gets leveraged 10:1 or 20:1 through the
"fractional reserve" banking system. $1500 gold may seem cheap in a
year.
-------------------------
Frank Provasek Rare Coins
http://www.frankcoins.com Ebay FRANKCOINS
Member ANA, Texas Numismatic Assoc, Texas Coin Dealers Assoc,
PCGS dealer, Full Time Dealer since 1991, Texas Auctioneer Lic 11259
oly
> Wait until the trillion dollars worth of "capital" that the Feds have
> created out of nothing gets leveraged 10:1 or 20:1 through the
> "fractional reserve" banking system. $1500 gold may seem cheap in a
> year.
>
> -------------------------
> Member ANA, Texas Numismatic Assoc, Texas Coin Dealers Assoc,
> PCGS dealer, Full Time Dealer since 1991, Texas Auctioneer Lic 11259
Hey Frank, gotta agree with you more than 100% in this instance!!!
(off-stage: Groans and heart attacks from porr-old RF)
The Paulson Bailout is a mess mess mess. IT WILL BE Argentinian, if
not Weimar on Weimar.
oly
raylopez99
> The Paulson Bailout is a mess mess mess. IT WILL BE Argentinian, if
> not Weimar on Weimar.
Here in Europe, I've talked to eyewitnesses who saw people running in
the streets throwing paper money in the air, because it was
worthless. Hope we don't see that in the USA, but you never know.
And I hope we get Argentinian hyperinflation rather than Bolivian or
Zimbabwian, where the rate for the former was so high I believe it was
10^50% (10 with fifty zeros behind it), a world record, and for the
latter you had to be a Zim millionaire just to pay for a cup of coffee
(I have some Zim dollars btw, and they are ominously American green in
color). With hyperinflation, even people with TIPS bonds get burnt,
since TIPS only get reset once every six months or so, and
hyperinflation is reset hourly, in fact it's well known that prices
will change from the time you walk into a store and the time you walk
to the checkout counter (assuming there's even goods on the shelves,
another problem entirely).
RL
oly
In the financial realm, I don't think it matters very much if you have
98% of your money's purchasing evaporated by inflation (as in
Argentina) or 100% of your money's purchasing power evaporated by
inflation (as in Zimbabwe). Either way, middle class people are no
longer middle class; pensioners and oldsters are nearly all toast.
When I see eight-key and ten-key electronic pocket calculators being
sold for one dollar down at Walgreens, I wonder if somebody knows
something we don't!!!
oly
Steven L.
> MarketWatch http://atu.ca/009a
>
> Euphoria over bank bailouts and the temporarily buoyant
> stock markets is masking a sober reality.
>
> The piper still has to be paid.
>
> One fairly sanguine estimate of the cost of salvaging Wall
> Street came Tuesday morning from analysts at Merrill Lynch.
> They figure the inflationary effect of all the bank bailout
> measures now underway will push gold to $1,500 an ounce and
> oil back to $150 a barrel.
>
> The analysts don't offer a timeline, but the way markets
> have been jumping around lately it could be any day now.
>
> Perhaps the real question is: why stop at $1,500?
Because if the Government sees many American citizens fleeing to gold,
they'll just do what FDR did in the 1930s: They will make private
ownership of gold *illegal*. Until 1974, American citizens were
*forbidden* to own gold:
Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933 by
U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold
Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates." It required all persons to
deliver on or before May 1, 1933 all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold
certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve. Under the Trading
With the Enemy Act of October 6, 1917, as amended on March 9, 1933,
violation of Executive Order 6102 was punishable by fine up to $10,000
($166,640 if adjusted for inflation as of 2008) or up to ten years in
prison, or both. Because of this forced immediate sale of gold to the
Federal Reserve at the government set price of $20.67 per ounce, this
Executive Order is often referred to as the Gold Confiscation of 1933.
Shortly after this forced sale, the price of gold from the treasury for
international transactions was raised to $35 an ounce; the U.S.
government thereby devalued the U.S. dollar by 41%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
And that type of legislation will control the demand for gold, and hence
indirectly control its price.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
oly
> Ned wrote:
> > MarketWatchhttp://atu.ca/009a
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The small minority of the American people who own gold today won't do
what the People did in the 1930s, which was to voluntarily comply.
Also overlooked by most who cite the 1933 confiscation was the fact
that people could retain $100 face value in gold coins (equal to just
less than five troy ounces of the precious yellow) and not be in
violation of Roosevelt's order. I suppose we won't get that
opportunity this time around.
If every American today had five ounces of gold, the future of the
country might be a lot brighter.
But, with modern electronics (like metal detectors) and modern
surveilance techniques, will those who wish to hide their gold have a
problem keeping the stuff hid???
oly
darkst...@gmail.com
The death of countries.
The total re-drawing of the world map.
What some gold investors are probably remembering are the seizures of
physical gold stock which took place during the Great Depression when
the dollar went gold-backed again.
That's going to happen again -- by some legal authority -- and
probably damned sooner than later.
That's why gold isn't $2K or more...
Mike
shortT
once this mess is sorted out. Made a mistake and bought a gold mining
company
a few weeks ago. I would have been allot better off had I purchased
gold instead.
shortT
oly
Countries like Brasil have destroyed their currencies four or five
times since 1960 and they've never seriously considered gold as a
currency corner-stone yet. Why??? Gold is a discipline that
spendthrift politicians can't abide.
If the whole world economy falls to one-fifth (or less) of its current
level, then you might (just might) see a gold currency develop. But
if we go THAT low, silver might be more useful.
oly
shortT
Good point.
Silver would be way better then what we have now.
shortT
BuffetHater
Bruce Watson
oly <oly...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Ned wrote:
>> > MarketWatchhttp://atu.ca/009a
>>
>> > Euphoria over bank bailouts and the temporarily buoyant
>> > stock markets is masking a sober reality.
>>
>> > The piper still has to be paid.
>>
>> > One fairly sanguine estimate of the cost of salvaging Wall
>> > Street came Tuesday morning from analysts at Merrill Lynch.
>> > They figure the inflationary effect of all the bank bailout
>> > measures now underway will push gold to $1,500 an ounce and
>> > oil back to $150 a barrel.
>>
>> > The analysts don't offer a timeline, but the way markets
>> > have been jumping around lately it could be any day now.
>>
>> > Perhaps the real question is: why stop at $1,500?
>>
>> Because if the Government sees many American citizens fleeing to gold,
>>
>> Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933 by
>> U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold
>> Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates." It required all persons to
>> deliver on or before May 1, 1933 all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold
>> certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve. Under the Trading
>> With the Enemy Act of October 6, 1917, as amended on March 9, 1933,
>> violation of Executive Order 6102 was punishable by fine up to $10,000
>> ($166,640 if adjusted for inflation as of 2008) or up to ten years in
>> prison, or both. Because of this forced immediate sale of gold to the
>> Federal Reserve at the government set price of $20.67 per ounce, this
>> Executive Order is often referred to as the Gold Confiscation of 1933.
>> Shortly after this forced sale, the price of gold from the treasury for
>> international transactions was raised to $35 an ounce; the U.S.
>> government thereby devalued the U.S. dollar by 41%.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
>>
>> And that type of legislation will control the demand for gold, and hence
>> indirectly control its price.
>>
>> --
>> Steven L.
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>The small minority of the American people who own gold today won't do
>what the People did in the 1930s, which was to voluntarily comply.
>
>Also overlooked by most who cite the 1933 confiscation was the fact
>that people could retain $100 face value in gold coins (equal to just
>less than five troy ounces of the precious yellow) and not be in
>violation of Roosevelt's order. I suppose we won't get that
>opportunity this time around.
>
>If every American today had five ounces of gold, the future of the
>country might be a lot brighter.
>
>But, with modern electronics (like metal detectors) and modern
>surveilance techniques, will those who wish to hide their gold have a
>problem keeping the stuff hid???
In addition to being illegal to own gold, trading in gold
was illegal. Gold doesn't pay dividends nor can you eat it.
People voluntarily gave it up in the 1930s because the
$35 an ounce they got for it was at least useful.
sgt23
and definitely not two thousand dollars. The reason the stock market
is crashing right now is because ever thing is over priced. Why do you
think gas is going down. No I don't stats too back this up its just
fucking common sense. How about try using some!
Erik99
> If every American today had five ounces ofgold, the future of the
> country might be a lot brighter.
Just what magical quality do you think gold is infused with? You
might as well say, "If every American had 200 pounds of granite, the
future would be brighter." Gold, like everything else, is worth
whatever someone is willing to pay for it. It is not special. It was
special in 1933 because the world's currencies had been disastrously
coupled to it. A nations currency is a stand-in for the GDP of the
nation -- the cumulative value of the nation's goods and services. If
you try to simultaneously couple the currency to the government's
supply of some metal, and other nations do the same thing with the
same metal, then you get the kind of craziness the world suffered from
1932-1934.
oly
Gold is a reasonable stable store of value over time - something that
paper money is not. If you don't have any, you'll get your chance to
learn in the very near future. Your grasp of what caused the Great
Depression is deeply flawed. Not doubt you will be a voter for
Obamalamadingdong.
oly
Peter
There are some minor points:
1. Dentists, jewelers and coin collectors were exempt from the 1933
Executive Order, and were allowed to own gold. In terms of coins, the
actual terminology used was ''gold coins having a recognized special
value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.'' I'm not so sure that
enforcement was uniform in all cases and "recognized special value"
sounds like a term with a lot of wiggle room.
2. Owners of the were compensated at $20.67 an ounce. Following the
confiscation, the dollar was devalued and the price of gold was raised
to $35 an ounce.
3. There are a variety of technical means to detect metal and even
distinguish among metals. Their employment in any sort of undirected
or general search seems a little fanciful. Employing them at
recognized border crossings is imaginable, but primarily as a
deterrent or cautionary measure. The chance that the operator of such
a device will remain vigilant enough to have a high chance of finding
every scrap of gold (or silver: note it recently also reached $20/oz.)
sounds like an ambitious goal.
TATrader
I am with you there. As my history suggests here, I went long Gold in
2004 and it has been a fun ride. I accumulated along the way, which I
didn't discuss here, but that rose the cost basis from the 04 pricing
and still has been a good ride.
It seems deflation is on us, because with the markets going worldwide
to the crapper from:
http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=asia
^AORD All Ordinaries 3,988.100 1:11AM ET 284.400 (6.66%)
^SSEC Shanghai Composite 1,938.01 1:59AM ET 56.657 (2.84%)
^HSI Hang Seng 14,785.60 2:14AM ET 1,212.70 (7.58%)
^BSESN BSE 30 10,077.56 2:14AM ET 731.56 (6.77%)
^JKSE Jakarta Composite 1,440.09 2:43AM ET 80.32 (5.28%)
^KLSE KLSE Composite 949.88 Oct 15 16.18 (1.67%)
^N225 Nikkei 225 8,458.45 2:00AM ET 1,089.02 (11.41%)
^NZ50 NZSE 50 2,764.688 12:31AM ET 139.954 (4.82%)
^STI Straits Times 1,904.73 2:42AM ET 154.66 (7.51%)
^KS11 Seoul Composite 1,213.78 2:02AM ET 126.5 (9.44%)
^TWII Taiwan Weighted 5,075.97 1:46AM ET 170.29 (3.25%)
And been doing this in tandem with the USA markets recently...
Gold has paused and fluctuated in the 820 to 930 range over the past
month. I am still not settled on my judgement for inflation or
deflation, but it sure feels deflationary and I am looking to use the
market to hedge physical gold holdings (with VIX so high, the puts are
expensive, so unsure which way to hedge would be best for me).
Robert Blass
Google "hunt brothers" and "silver"
It is very possible for Gold to fall to $1 per pound
oly
If you are offering genuine gold at $1.00 per pound, please send me
100 pounds for myself, plus 20 pounds which I will give Volty as a
gift.
If you'll throw in another twenty pounds for the same price, I will
send Ira 20 pounds as a peace offering.
I will even pay shipping.
Eagerly awaiting your payment instructions, and your shipment, as well
as the $20 million that the Nigerians promised to send me,
Best regards to your cousin Bill, too,
I remain,
(Golden) oly
Steven L.
> Google "hunt brothers" and "silver"
>
> It is very possible for Gold to fall to $1 per pound
I will gladly sell you a bridge in Brooklyn for your $1 per pound of
gold.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Ned
<d5e3f98c20dd431e...@pseudo.borked.net>
Ned <nob...@pseudo.borked.net> wrote:
>
> MarketWatch http://atu.ca/009a
>
> $1,500 for gold looks more like a floor
> than a ceiling in the years to come.
Associated Press http://atu.ca/e1ef - Gold prices kept
falling Friday, briefly dropping below $775 an ounce as a
stronger dollar helped diminish the metal's appeal as a
safe haven against inflation. Silver also traded lower.
Gold for December delivery fell $16.80 to settle at $787.50
on the New York Mercantile Exchange, after earlier falling
as low as $772.20. December silver fell 30 cents to settle
at $9.335 an ounce on the Nymex, while December copper rose
9.4 cents to settle at $2.1795 a pound.
Gold has dropped over 8 percent in the past week, driven
lower by a rebounding dollar and a wave of commodities
liquidation by large institutional investors seeking to
raise cash to cover recent losses on bad stock bets.
Jon Nadler, analyst with Kitco Bullion Dealers in Montreal,
said the "relentless" selling continued Friday, confounding
some investors who had expected the ongoing financial
turmoil to boost gold's safe-haven appeal.
"These markets are still dealing on the basis of little
more than raw emotion, and greed is conspicuously absent
from the mix," Nadler said in a note...
Evojeesus
> Not doubt you will be a voter for Obamalamadingdong.
GWB managed to almost destroy the US in only 8 short years. These must
be great days to be a republican :-D
oly
And whose sockpuppet might you be???
oly
Evojeesus
I'm from Europe and I've watched with slightly terrified amusemsnt how
the US people elected a clueless moron in office for two consecutive
terms and now you're reaping the benefits. Don't screw up this time
ok?
sgt23
Wow this is really scary. Just seeing how much the rest of the world
relies on the United States. Especially countries thousands of years
older than us.
oly
The European and Japanese equity and bond markets don't have the
freakin' least idea of what direction to go unless Wall Street leads
first.
The same lack of cluelessness is why Wall Street could sell Europe all
those worthless mortgage bonds and derivatives.
Europe is one large old folks home where they have to import Moslems
to shift the bedpans.
Europe doesn't need evolution or Jesus. Europe needs caucasian women
who are willing to have four or more children.
oly
Evojeesus
> Europe doesn't need evolution or Jesus. Europe needs caucasian women
> who are willing to have four or more children.
Since our women are educated enough not to want to stay pregnant and
barefoot, I don't think that's going to happen.
mazorj
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:38ca612e-7e21-453e...@v30g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
...
> Europe is one large old folks home where they have to import Moslems
> to shift the bedpans.
>
> Europe doesn't need evolution or Jesus. Europe needs caucasian
> women
> who are willing to have four or more children.
Big families aren't dead there yet. On the news today was a story
about a study in Italy comparing Italian family sizes between parents
who had a good pension plan and those who didn't. Predictably, the
latter group on average had more children. That conforms to theories
about family size in Third World countries, and it's not just Third
World countries where parents worry about needing support in their
dotage.
But yes, in industrialized nations, on average they are not replacing
themselves. Not even in the countries with large numbers of
Catholics. My Italian grandmother must have been horrified when most
of her eight children only had two kids.
mazorj
"Evojeesus" <evoj...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:71b192b7-38ff-4737...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
It doesn't have to be four. An average of something like 2.1 will
maintain a steady state population number.
David
>
> - Show quoted text -
From today's paper:
"The crisis consuming global markets is part of a fundamental shift of
power from the US to emerging economies in China and the Middle East,
according to Stephen Green, Chairman of HSBC,"
And not before time, I say. What seems to be lacking from the US is
any form of apology for nearly destroying the world's financial system
and bringing a major depression on all of us. Now the con man blames
the customers he duped for buying his worthless mortgage products! The
two most apt proverbs seem to be the ones about power corrupting and
pride coming before a fall.
oly
Guess what??? Europe is dead meat. Even France doesn't have a French
president any more (of course, we are about to get a President who was
born in Kenya or Canada or possibly even Indonesia).
In 50 years, European history will be the study of dead societies.
America doesn't need advice from the dead, except maybe how to avoid
their fate.
oly
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
To bring this discussion back around (a bit), according to certain
coin dealers here on RCC, as long as the customers bought it and
nobody held a gun to their heads, those sales were legal, moral and
nothing that the seller should have any qualms whatsoever about. If
you voluntarily pay $5,000 for three cents worth of bronze and two
cents worth of plastic, their "reasoning" goes, nobody should
object.
The buyers of those mortgage bonds and derivatives were over 21 and
supposedly compos mentis. They probably got a lot of pay and big
bonuses from their shareholders for taking those actions.
oly
David
Yes, and a lot of those buyers were hotshot US investment bankers,
probably with MBAs from Harvard, who brought down their own investment
banks, banks and insurance companies. Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch, Bear
Sterns, AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Wachovia and probably countless
others I can't rmember reads like a roll call of American Financial
business.
mazorj
"David" <da...@wilkinson6337.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:374385c8-bf84-4d83...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 11:47 am, oly <oly2...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 1:14 am, David <da...@wilkinson6337.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
...
> > From today's paper:
>
> > "The crisis consuming global markets is part of a fundamental
> > shift of
> > power from the US to emerging economies in China and the Middle
> > East,
> > according to Stephen Green, Chairman of HSBC,"
>
> > And not before time, I say. What seems to be lacking from the US
> > is
> > any form of apology for nearly destroying the world's financial
> > system
> > and bringing a major depression on all of us. Now the con man
> > blames
> > the customers he duped for buying his worthless mortgage products!
> > The
> > two most apt proverbs seem to be the ones about power corrupting
> > and
> > pride coming before a fall.
I don't know about the Norwegian villagers, but in East Asia and China
in particular, they had massive surpluses of cash piling up to be
invested. China eagerly snapped up the mortgage derivatives as
high-paying instruments to soak up their excess dollars, and kept
calling Wall Street for more. We can argue over whether the U.S.
mortgage brokers and banks and investment houses who perpetrated
this will be sufficiently punished through the markets and regulatory
avenues, but as a nation, the U.S. doesn't owe anyone an apology. We
deserve some of the disapprobation we get for our actions, but you can
only carry anti-Americanism so far.
> To bring this discussion back around (a bit), according to certain
> coin dealers here on RCC, as long as the customers bought it and
> nobody held a gun to their heads, those sales were legal, moral and
> nothing that the seller should have any qualms whatsoever about. If
> you voluntarily pay $5,000 for three cents worth of bronze and two
> cents worth of plastic, their "reasoning" goes, nobody should
> object.
>
> The buyers of those mortgage bonds and derivatives were over 21 and
> supposedly compos mentis. They probably got a lot of pay and big
> bonuses from their shareholders for taking those actions.
>
> oly
< Yes, and a lot of those buyers were hotshot US investment bankers,
probably with MBAs from Harvard, who brought down their own investment
banks, banks and insurance companies. Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch, Bear
Sterns, AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Wachovia and probably countless
others I can't rmember reads like a roll call of American Financial
business.
Your point here being what, other than that greed is universal? Since
you like proverbs, "Buyer beware," "If it seems too good to be true,
it probably is" and "A fool and his money are soon parted" also come
to mind.
PC
(of course, we are about to get a President who was
born in Kenya or Canada or possibly even Indonesia).
>>>>
Please stop spreading lies.
John Galt
Well, right. Everyone entered into these transactions with open eyes.
What's the apology supposed to say? "Sorry that supply and demand works,
and that oversupply depressed our housing prices?"
>
>> To bring this discussion back around (a bit), according to certain
>> coin dealers here on RCC, as long as the customers bought it and
>> nobody held a gun to their heads, those sales were legal, moral and
>> nothing that the seller should have any qualms whatsoever about. If
>> you voluntarily pay $5,000 for three cents worth of bronze and two
>> cents worth of plastic, their "reasoning" goes, nobody should
>> object.
>>
>> The buyers of those mortgage bonds and derivatives were over 21 and
>> supposedly compos mentis. They probably got a lot of pay and big
>> bonuses from their shareholders for taking those actions.
>>
>> oly
>
> < Yes, and a lot of those buyers were hotshot US investment bankers,
> probably with MBAs from Harvard, who brought down their own investment
> banks, banks and insurance companies. Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch, Bear
> Sterns, AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Wachovia and probably countless
> others I can't rmember reads like a roll call of American Financial
> business.
>
> Your point here being what, other than that greed is universal? Since
> you like proverbs, "Buyer beware," "If it seems too good to be true,
> it probably is" and "A fool and his money are soon parted" also come
> to mind.
Well, yea. All the buyers of this stuff had decades of experience that
told them that markets (in this case, housing) can go both up and down,
AND that the payout for triple-A debt should be no higher than 4 or 5
percent even under the best of circumstances.
JG
>
>
Mr.Bill
Europe doesn't need evolution or Jesus. Europe needs caucasian women
who are willing to have four or more children.
oly
If they'd settle for slightly brown we have several million Mexican/Central American females here that breed like rabbits. You're welcome to them.
David
>
> - Show quoted text -
The point being that if even the top US investment banks don't judge
the risk and return properties of CDOs correctly when the mortgages
are advanced by US companies on US houses and packaged up by US
companies, then how do you expect Europeans or Chinese to judge them
better? If a top Wall Street Investment Bank offers you some mortgage
bonds with a good story and the usual US razzamatazz and you are a
Chinese banker with lost of csh to invest then you probably buy them.
Even Bear Sterns, etc., bought them. What was Moody's rating on these
things?
If Fort Knox decides to sell off gold bars, what are you going to do?
Drill a hole in each one and have the drillings assayed in case it's
less than 99% purity , or whatever the standard is? No, you take some
things on trust.
Somewhere at the bottom of the whole CDO scandal are people close
enough to the reality to know that advancing mortgages to NINJA
Americans was unsound and that packaging them up to sell on was next
to a con trick. I would like to see those people brought to justice.
Evojeesus
> "Evojeesus" <evojee...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> > Since our women are educated enough not to want to stay pregnant and
> > barefoot, I don't think that's going to happen.
> It doesn't have to be four. An average of something like 2.1 will
> maintain a steady state population number.
That could work if there were more dads willing to make some career
sacrifices and stay at home with the kids for a year or two.
mazorj
That can be a good thing for a number of reasons, and for some it
might be an additional enticement, but it's hardly a necessary
condition. People have children for many other reasons and whether or
not the father will stop working for awhile rarely would be a
determining factor. Not every mother - career-minded or not - wants
or needs that kind of arrangement.
-=DirtBag©
> I used to be a huge gold bull. Rethinking and may actually short
> gold
> stocks against my better judgment.
> Gold has done shit in the face of collapse . . . . but, get this,
> Silver
> collapsed under the load of fear and is down 50%.
>
> GOLD ALWAYS LEADS SILVER ON THE WAY UP AND SILVER LEADS
> GOLD ON THE WAY DOWN!!!!
> Check it out. I am nervous as hell, shorting gold stocks with tite
> stops.
Interesting and brave.. Metals are down period. Might be better to own
guns and plenty of ammo when the good shortages start. Trade for silver
and TAKE the gold. hahaha
Your thinking is worth some thought... Good Luck
Ed
"David" <da...@wilkinson6337.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
The point being that if even the top US investment banks don't judge
the risk and return properties of CDOs correctly when the mortgages
are advanced by US companies on US houses and packaged up by US
companies, then how do you expect Europeans or Chinese to judge them
better? If a top Wall Street Investment Bank offers you some mortgage
bonds with a good story and the usual US razzamatazz and you are a
Chinese banker with lost of csh to invest then you probably buy them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any investment: Your shares may be worth more or less when you sell them.
There are no gaurantees. Do your homework before investing. Never buy
anything you don't understand.
True, it was greed and a host of other things that got us to where we are
today but please don't ask me to feel sorry for European and Chinese banks.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
Obamalamadingdong won't show his birth certificate. Of course, it
might be embarassing if it is in Swahili.
oly
Phil DeMayo
> Obamalamadingdong won't show his birth certificate. �Of course, it
> might be embarassing if it is in Swahili.
>
> oly
Oh really?
Took about 5 seconds to find it online:
http://tinyurl.com/6m5vzr
oly
"Tis a fake, one that has been out there for months and debunked
thoroughly.
A conclusion is only the point where you stop thinking.
In DeMayo's case, he never starts.
oly
Phil DeMayo
> On Oct 21, 7:30�pm, Phil DeMayo <flip1...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 21, 6:41 pm, oly <oly2...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > Obamalamadingdong won't show his birth certificate. Of course, it
> > > might be embarassing if it is in Swahili.
>
> > > oly
>
> > Oh really?
>
> > Took about 5 seconds to find it online:http://tinyurl.com/6m5vzr
>
> "Tis a fake, one that has been out there for months and debunked
> thoroughly.
Nonsense....Politifact.com verified it's authenticity with the Hawaii
Department of Health.
> A conclusion is only the point where you stop thinking.
>
> In DeMayo's case, he never starts.
>
> oly
The opinion of a bigotted asshole such as yourself isn't going to make
me lose any sleep.
oly
I may be an asshole, but I am not a bigot. I have seem Obama up close
in the Illinois State Capitol building on many occasions and recently
saw him in action at the U.S. Capitol. You folks who take him for
some form of Messiah are the fools.
oly
mazorj
On Oct 21, 3:59 pm, "mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "David" <da...@wilkinson6337.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
...
> < Yes, and a lot of those buyers were hotshot US investment bankers,
> probably with MBAs from Harvard, who brought down their own
> investment
> banks, banks and insurance companies. Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch,
> Bear
> Sterns, AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Wachovia and probably
> countless
> others I can't rmember reads like a roll call of American Financial
> business.
>
> Your point here being what, other than that greed is universal?
> Since
> you like proverbs, "Buyer beware," "If it seems too good to be true,
> it probably is" and "A fool and his money are soon parted" also come
> to mind.
< The point being that if even the top US investment banks don't judge
the risk and return properties of CDOs correctly when the mortgages
are advanced by US companies on US houses and packaged up by US
companies, then how do you expect Europeans or Chinese to judge them
better?
I never said that the Chinese bankers should have known that these
were toxic. In retrospect, the contradiction of very high return and
very low risk rating should have raised caution flags; but I was just
addressing your silly claim that America owes them an apology.
< If a top Wall Street Investment Bank offers you some mortgage
bonds with a good story and the usual US razzamatazz and you are a
Chinese banker with lost of csh to invest then you probably buy them.
Even Bear Sterns, etc., bought them. What was Moody's rating on these
things?
<
< If Fort Knox decides to sell off gold bars, what are you going to
do?
Drill a hole in each one and have the drillings assayed in case it's
less than 99% purity , or whatever the standard is? No, you take some
things on trust.
<
< Somewhere at the bottom of the whole CDO scandal are people close
enough to the reality to know that advancing mortgages to NINJA
Americans was unsound and that packaging them up to sell on was next
to a con trick. I would like to see those people brought to justice.
Who doesn't? But that's not what you said in your original comment.
You blamed it on "America" because "America" was a "con man" and
demanded that "America" apologize, all of which was taking
anti-Americanism to a silly extreme.
Ned
<d5e3f98c20dd431e...@pseudo.borked.net>
Ned <nob...@pseudo.borked.net> wrote:
>
> MarketWatch http://atu.ca/009a
>
> $1,500 for gold looks more like a floor
> than a ceiling in the years to come.
Marketwatch http://easyurl.net/d2ad - Gold futures tumbled
4.3% Wednesday to the lowest level in one year, while
copper futures were set for their worst year since 1988 in
a broad sell-off that was sending stocks and commodities
sharply lower. Gold for December delivery fell $32.80, or
4.3%, to end $735.20 an ounce on the Comex division of the
New York Mercantile Exchange, the lowest closing level
since October, 2007. Gold has fallen nine out of the past
10 trading sessions. Meanwhile, December copper slumped
14.15 cents, or 7.1%, to $1.8655 a pound. The metal has
dropped 39% so far this year, heading for the biggest
yearly percentage drop since 1988, when trading data first
became available on the Nymex.
mazorj
On Oct 21, 7:30 pm, Phil DeMayo <flip1...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 6:41 pm, oly <oly2...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Obamalamadingdong won't show his birth certificate. Of course, it
> > might be embarassing if it is in Swahili.
>
> > oly
>
> Oh really?
>
> Took about 5 seconds to find it online:http://tinyurl.com/6m5vzr
> "Tis a fake, one that has been out there for months and debunked
> thoroughly.
Debunked where? Cites, please. Debunk the debunking, oly.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp
and an even more definitive treatment at
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
Ned
<d5e3f98c20dd431e...@pseudo.borked.net>
Ned <nob...@pseudo.borked.net> wrote:
>
> MarketWatch http://atu.ca/009a
>
> than a ceiling in the years to come.
"Gold prices briefly plunged to a 21-month low Friday as
world stock markets plunged, puzzling some analysts who
believe the traditional safe-haven asset should be soaring
amid the economic turmoil.
"Gold clawed back into positive territory later in the day,
but prices are still down about 20 percent since the start
of the month as fears of a global recession drag down the
value of commodities from crude oil to corn. The declines
have raised questions among investors about whether gold
has given up its long-held claim as a safe alternative
investment..." - Associated Press http://atu.ca/e9e20