keeping pennies red
yawnmoth
reasons - skin oil or oxidation. If the former, just putting them in
a coin album or a ziploc bag or whatever should be sufficient to keep
them red. If the latter... would placing them in a bottle of
distilled water do the trick? If the ziploc bag contains PVC, the
pennies are liable to turn green, as I understand it, and placing the
pennies in water, I suspect, could have some unintended consequences
as well. Since they're copper plated zinc, rust shouldn't be a
problem, but, then again, do things rust if they're never exposed to
elemental oxygen?
Mr. Jaggers
Coins will not stay red, even in an album or ziploc, if they have already
been contaminated by skin oil. In the common parlance, "rust" can be any
kind of corrosion product, and it isn't always the result of elemental
oxygen.
The best protection would be a pristine coin placed in a perfect vacuum.
Absent that, putting the coin in an Airtite holder, or in a Kointain inside
a Saflip, is about the best you're going to do, unless you want to have the
coin slabbed, and slabs are notoriously not airtight.
Copper plated zinc IS a problem, as the thin layer of copper plating is
likely riddled with tiny pores that reach all the way down to the zinc and
can provide an avenue for contaminants to reach the core. The copper
plating itself is subject to corrosion as well.
All this explains why MS65RD early Lincolns are so scarce and SO expensive.
James
yawnmoth
> yawnmoth wrote:
> > It seems to me that pennies turn red due to one of two possible
> > reasons - skin oil or oxidation. If the former, just putting them in
> > a coin album or a ziploc bag or whatever should be sufficient to keep
> > them red. If the latter... would placing them in a bottle of
> > distilled water do the trick? If the ziploc bag contains PVC, the
> > pennies are liable to turn green, as I understand it, and placing the
> > pennies in water, I suspect, could have some unintended consequences
> > as well. Since they're copper plated zinc, rust shouldn't be a
> > problem, but, then again, do things rust if they're never exposed to
> > elemental oxygen?
>
> Coins will not stay red, even in an album or ziploc, if they have already
> been contaminated by skin oil.
So if bought an uncirculated roll from the US Mint, opened it up, and
only ever touched the coin once (to put it in a special container or
something), the coin's forever tarnished?
It seems like the rate of corrosion would depend on how much skin oil
is there in the first place.
Also, if one did touch a coin and money wasn't an object, how might
one go about cleaning it? Soap and water probably aren't the best
cleaning solutions, but, then again, if you're unconstrained by money,
they're probably not the best ones available, either.
Finally, are there any documented instances of slabbed MS65+RD coins
going brown while slabbed?
Mr. Jaggers
> On Jan 1, 2:37 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>> yawnmoth wrote:
>>> It seems to me that pennies turn red due to one of two possible
>>> reasons - skin oil or oxidation. If the former, just putting them in
>>> a coin album or a ziploc bag or whatever should be sufficient to
>>> keep them red. If the latter... would placing them in a bottle of
>>> distilled water do the trick? If the ziploc bag contains PVC, the
>>> pennies are liable to turn green, as I understand it, and placing
>>> the pennies in water, I suspect, could have some unintended
>>> consequences as well. Since they're copper plated zinc, rust
>>> shouldn't be a problem, but, then again, do things rust if they're
>>> never exposed to elemental oxygen?
>>
>> Coins will not stay red, even in an album or ziploc, if they have
>> already been contaminated by skin oil.
>
> So if bought an uncirculated roll from the US Mint, opened it up, and
> only ever touched the coin once (to put it in a special container or
> something), the coin's forever tarnished?
It is likely that contaminants were deposited on the coins during
manufacture, and very well could cause problems down the road. Depending on
how heavily and where you "touched" them, and your individual body
chemistry, they may or may not ever show the effects. This is all
microscopic stuff, you must understand.
> It seems like the rate of corrosion would depend on how much skin oil
> is there in the first place.
True, and, as pointed out above, the chemistry in your skin oil at that
moment.
> Also, if one did touch a coin and money wasn't an object, how might
> one go about cleaning it? Soap and water probably aren't the best
> cleaning solutions, but, then again, if you're unconstrained by money,
> they're probably not the best ones available, either.
Once skin oil or any other chemical attacks the surface of a coin, the
resulting etching of the surface cannot be reversed for any amount of money.
Many have tried, further damaging their coins.
>
> Finally, are there any documented instances of slabbed MS65+RD coins
> going brown while slabbed?
Absolutely. If a dipped or otherwise cleaned coin is not thoroughly and
completely rinsed of all traces of the dipping chemical, its surface can
remain hyperreactive, and slabbing companies have been known to miss this.
In one celebrated case, they had to make good on their guarantee bigtime.
Just Tuesday I picked up a copy of the new Whitman publication, Grading
Coins by Photographs, by Q. David Bowers. This afternoon I read the
introductory material. All I can say is, the information contained there is
about the least expensive tuition one can pay for a very valuable education.
I highly recommend that you get your own copy and read it.
James
Paul Ciszek
In article <gjjlk...@enews4.newsguy.com>,
Mr. Jaggers <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>
>It is likely that contaminants were deposited on the coins during
>manufacture, and very well could cause problems down the road. Depending on
>how heavily and where you "touched" them, and your individual body
>chemistry, they may or may not ever show the effects. This is all
>microscopic stuff, you must understand.
Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but wouldn't nitrile gloves and/or plastic
tweezers allow you to remove your own body chemistry from the equation?
I wish I could remember the name of the catalog that had plastic tweezers
for every possible application.
--
Please reply to: | "One of the hardest parts of my job is to
pciszek at panix dot com | connect Iraq to the War on Terror."
Autoreply is disabled | -- G. W. Bush, 9/7/2006
Mr. Jaggers
> In article <gjjlk...@enews4.newsguy.com>,
> Mr. Jaggers <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>>
>> It is likely that contaminants were deposited on the coins during
>> manufacture, and very well could cause problems down the road.
>> Depending on how heavily and where you "touched" them, and your
>> individual body chemistry, they may or may not ever show the
>> effects. This is all microscopic stuff, you must understand.
>
> Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but wouldn't nitrile gloves and/or
> plastic tweezers allow you to remove your own body chemistry from the
> equation?
Not necessarily. There are literally tens of thousands of "spotted" coins
out there, the spotting caused by sneezing, clearing the throat, or even
talking and whistling while handling the coins. Often these effects take a
long time to show up, but when they do, it's too late. And you don't even
want to think about the mint employee who, back in San Francisco in 1909,
sneezed over a hopper full of brand new Lincoln VDB cents.
James
yawnmoth
> Paul Ciszek wrote:
> > Mr. Jaggers <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>
> >> It is likely that contaminants were deposited on the coins during
> >> manufacture, and very well could cause problems down the road.
> >> Depending on how heavily and where you "touched" them, and your
> >> individual body chemistry, they may or may not ever show the
> >> effects. This is all microscopic stuff, you must understand.
>
> > Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but wouldn't nitrile gloves and/or
> > plastic tweezers allow you to remove your own body chemistry from the
> > equation?
>
> Not necessarily. There are literally tens of thousands of "spotted" coins
> out there, the spotting caused by sneezing, clearing the throat, or even
> talking and whistling while handling the coins. Often these effects take a
> long time to show up, but when they do, it's too late
effects have shown up.
Kinda makes me wonder, though... if you weren't concerned about
preserving the features of the coin... I guess you could just melt it
down, isolate the copper and re smelt it.
Incidentally, do you think there's an upper bound on the time it takes
for effects to set in? ie. if, 100 years after the fact, a coin isn't
affected, is it safe to assume it'll never be affected by it being
touched 100 years ago? Of course, when examining it 100 years later,
you'd have to be careful not to contaminate it, again.
Mr. Jaggers
> On Jan 1, 8:56 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>> Paul Ciszek wrote:
>>> In article <gjjlk801...@enews4.newsguy.com>,
>>> Mr. Jaggers <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>>
>>>> It is likely that contaminants were deposited on the coins during
>>>> manufacture, and very well could cause problems down the road.
>>>> Depending on how heavily and where you "touched" them, and your
>>>> individual body chemistry, they may or may not ever show the
>>>> effects. This is all microscopic stuff, you must understand.
>>
>>> Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but wouldn't nitrile gloves and/or
>>> plastic tweezers allow you to remove your own body chemistry from
>>> the equation?
>>
>> Not necessarily. There are literally tens of thousands of "spotted"
>> coins out there, the spotting caused by sneezing, clearing the
>> throat, or even talking and whistling while handling the coins.
>> Often these effects take a long time to show up, but when they do,
>> it's too late
> Sounds like it's too late to do anything about it even before the
> effects have shown up.
You can take the necessary precautions when handling a coin yourself, but
you can't do much about what has happened to the coin prior to being in your
custody, other than sending it to a coin conservation service, and that
could get expensive in a hurry.
> Kinda makes me wonder, though... if you weren't concerned about
> preserving the features of the coin... I guess you could just melt it
> down, isolate the copper and re smelt it.
I guess you could.
> Incidentally, do you think there's an upper bound on the time it takes
> for effects to set in? ie. if, 100 years after the fact, a coin isn't
> affected, is it safe to assume it'll never be affected by it being
> touched 100 years ago? Of course, when examining it 100 years later,
> you'd have to be careful not to contaminate it, again.
I seriously doubt that enough research exists to accurately address this
issue.
James
Jon Purkey
<lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>yawnmoth wrote:
>> It seems to me that pennies turn red due to one of two possible
>> reasons - skin oil or oxidation. If the former, just putting them in
>> a coin album or a ziploc bag or whatever should be sufficient to keep
>> them red. If the latter... would placing them in a bottle of
>> distilled water do the trick? If the ziploc bag contains PVC, the
>> pennies are liable to turn green, as I understand it, and placing the
>> pennies in water, I suspect, could have some unintended consequences
>> as well. Since they're copper plated zinc, rust shouldn't be a
>> problem, but, then again, do things rust if they're never exposed to
>> elemental oxygen?
>
>Coins will not stay red, even in an album or ziploc, if they have already
>been contaminated by skin oil. In the common parlance, "rust" can be any
>kind of corrosion product, and it isn't always the result of elemental
>oxygen.
>
>The best protection would be a pristine coin placed in a perfect vacuum.
>Absent that, putting the coin in an Airtite holder, or in a Kointain inside
>a Saflip, is about the best you're going to do, unless you want to have the
>coin slabbed, and slabs are notoriously not airtight.
I have an acrylic cube/paperweight with 14 1990 BU Lincoln Cents
sealed inside of it. They coins are bright and not toned at all.
Almost too bright (pinkish) as if they might have been cleaned prior
to being sealed.