Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Re: 1964-D Franklin Silver Half Dollar Fantasy Now Available
15 views
Skip to first unread message
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
oly
Sep 21, 2011, 6:18:54 AM9/21/11
to
On Sep 21, 2:40 am, nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <j5b0lo$5d...@speranza.aioe.org>,
>
> Daniel Carr <d...@moontlightmint.com> wrote:
> >Brand New issue!
>
> >http://www.dc-coin.com/images/products/detail/mm_50_1964d_1.2.jpg
>
> >http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-3-1.aspx
>
> Producing an altered US coin seems to me to be asking for trouble. Sure,
> mutilation of coins is legal as long as no fraud is intended--you can
> role them through flattening machines, drill holes in them to turn them
> into pendants, cut out the relevant picture bits for jewelry, etc., but
> slightly altering the markings to make it look like something that would
> be worth a lot if real--that is too close to counterfeiting.
>
> --
> "Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
> crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
> TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
> bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
When the "Clinton" Arkansas quarters were produced (not a Carr
product), they were struck over other original Statehood Quarters and
apparently there was no foul, or no foul worthy of pursuit.
Also, if you look at the Carr website, the 1964 "D" Peace Dollars
fantasies look like the dangerous thing to me (compared to the 1964
Franklins); undoubtedly there are thousands of these 1964 "D" Peace
Dollars, real ones, in existence. The people who own them are very
important people (or the children and grandchildren of deceased
important people) at the top of our nation's political classes.
Not to say that you don't really want to attract attention of the big
Bull, and not to say that "unwritten rules" can't be changed at any
time, but striking over original coins to produce a new "near novelty"
coin hasn't drawn much attention from the PTB in the recent past.
The fact that the OP only put up his message for a short period
suggests that the OP is possibly a bit worried about the status of
such pieces. He wants publicity but not too much.
oly
> In article <j5b0lo$5d...@speranza.aioe.org>,
>
> Daniel Carr <d...@moontlightmint.com> wrote:
> >Brand New issue!
>
> >http://www.dc-coin.com/images/products/detail/mm_50_1964d_1.2.jpg
>
> >http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-3-1.aspx
>
> Producing an altered US coin seems to me to be asking for trouble. Sure,
> mutilation of coins is legal as long as no fraud is intended--you can
> role them through flattening machines, drill holes in them to turn them
> into pendants, cut out the relevant picture bits for jewelry, etc., but
> slightly altering the markings to make it look like something that would
> be worth a lot if real--that is too close to counterfeiting.
>
> --
> "Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
> crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
> TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
> bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
When the "Clinton" Arkansas quarters were produced (not a Carr
product), they were struck over other original Statehood Quarters and
apparently there was no foul, or no foul worthy of pursuit.
Also, if you look at the Carr website, the 1964 "D" Peace Dollars
fantasies look like the dangerous thing to me (compared to the 1964
Franklins); undoubtedly there are thousands of these 1964 "D" Peace
Dollars, real ones, in existence. The people who own them are very
important people (or the children and grandchildren of deceased
important people) at the top of our nation's political classes.
Not to say that you don't really want to attract attention of the big
Bull, and not to say that "unwritten rules" can't be changed at any
time, but striking over original coins to produce a new "near novelty"
coin hasn't drawn much attention from the PTB in the recent past.
The fact that the OP only put up his message for a short period
suggests that the OP is possibly a bit worried about the status of
such pieces. He wants publicity but not too much.
oly
Chaim Weizmann
Sep 21, 2011, 7:00:32 AM9/21/11
to
It seems this Carr fellow knows in his heart that what he is doing is wrong,
but trys to convince himself that he is not doing wrong by strictly
following the letter of he law.
"Daniel Carr" <d...@moontlightmint.com> wrote in message
news:j5b0lo$5dl$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
but trys to convince himself that he is not doing wrong by strictly
following the letter of he law.
"Daniel Carr" <d...@moontlightmint.com> wrote in message
news:j5b0lo$5dl$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
William Youngworth
Sep 21, 2011, 7:21:02 AM9/21/11
to
18 USC §331:
"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes,
falsifies, scales or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the
United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in
actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever
fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to
pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such
coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired,
diminished, falsified, scaled or lightened - shall be fined under this
title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."
Making a $15 common Franklin into a $90 1964-D "fantasy" piece really seems
to be tempting fate with respect to this. It is definitely altering a
genuine coin. The result is a piece that's being valued higher than the
original. I would not want to have to defend my actions as being non-
fraudulent.
18 USC §487:
"Whoever, without lawful authority, makes any die, hub, or mold, or any
part thereof, either of steel or plaster, or any other substance, in
likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon, of any
die, hub, or mold designated for the coining or making of any of the
genuine gold, silver, nickel, bronze, copper, or other coins coined at the
mints of the United States; or
"Whoever, without lawful authority, possesses any such die, hub, or mold,
or any part thereof, or permits the same to be used for or in aid of the
counterfeiting of any such coins of the United States - Shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both."
Is selling these as fantasy pieces not marked as copies of real coins
(which 1964-D Franklins would have been) that may eventually end up in the
hands of someone that passes them off to the unsuspecting as real
permitting these dies to be used in the aid of counterfeiting? Again, I
would not want to have to defend my actions here.
"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes,
falsifies, scales or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the
United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in
actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever
fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to
pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such
coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired,
diminished, falsified, scaled or lightened - shall be fined under this
title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."
Making a $15 common Franklin into a $90 1964-D "fantasy" piece really seems
to be tempting fate with respect to this. It is definitely altering a
genuine coin. The result is a piece that's being valued higher than the
original. I would not want to have to defend my actions as being non-
fraudulent.
18 USC §487:
"Whoever, without lawful authority, makes any die, hub, or mold, or any
part thereof, either of steel or plaster, or any other substance, in
likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon, of any
die, hub, or mold designated for the coining or making of any of the
genuine gold, silver, nickel, bronze, copper, or other coins coined at the
mints of the United States; or
"Whoever, without lawful authority, possesses any such die, hub, or mold,
or any part thereof, or permits the same to be used for or in aid of the
counterfeiting of any such coins of the United States - Shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both."
Is selling these as fantasy pieces not marked as copies of real coins
(which 1964-D Franklins would have been) that may eventually end up in the
hands of someone that passes them off to the unsuspecting as real
permitting these dies to be used in the aid of counterfeiting? Again, I
would not want to have to defend my actions here.
oly
Sep 21, 2011, 7:09:02 AM9/21/11
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Much of his argument for legitimacy is close to the line of thought
that the elongated coin people utilize; and if you strike a fantasy
coin over a real legitimate coin of the realm, what is the actual loss
to the state or sovereign???
Carr's foul may be no worse than using a phoney baloney internet
handle like "Chaim Weizmann"...
oly
Zounds
Sep 21, 2011, 8:27:38 AM9/21/11
to
Without being stamped COPY these are counterfeits and thus illegal.
Christian Merlo
Sep 21, 2011, 8:33:18 AM9/21/11
to
"Paul Ciszek" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:j5c4e1$raq$3...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> In article <j5b0lo$5dl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
like the Ground Zero mosque on a certain level- yes, you can do it, but the
question is should you do it?
news:j5c4e1$raq$3...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> In article <j5b0lo$5dl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Daniel Carr <d...@moontlightmint.com> wrote:
>>Brand New issue!
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.dc-coin.com/images/products/detail/mm_50_1964d_1.2.jpg
>>
>>Brand New issue!
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.dc-coin.com/images/products/detail/mm_50_1964d_1.2.jpg
>>
>>http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-3-1.aspx
>
> Producing an altered US coin seems to me to be asking for trouble. Sure,
> mutilation of coins is legal as long as no fraud is intended--you can
> role them through flattening machines, drill holes in them to turn them
> into pendants, cut out the relevant picture bits for jewelry, etc., but
> slightly altering the markings to make it look like something that would
> be worth a lot if real--that is too close to counterfeiting.
>
Not to politicize this (merely making an analogy), but to me, this is kinda
>
> Producing an altered US coin seems to me to be asking for trouble. Sure,
> mutilation of coins is legal as long as no fraud is intended--you can
> role them through flattening machines, drill holes in them to turn them
> into pendants, cut out the relevant picture bits for jewelry, etc., but
> slightly altering the markings to make it look like something that would
> be worth a lot if real--that is too close to counterfeiting.
>
like the Ground Zero mosque on a certain level- yes, you can do it, but the
question is should you do it?
Jerry Dennis
Sep 21, 2011, 8:53:47 PM9/21/11
to
On Sep 20, 5:30 pm, "Daniel Carr" <d...@moontlightmint.com> wrote:
> Brand New issue!
>
> http://www.dc-coin.com/images/products/detail/mm_50_1964d_1.2.jpg
>
> http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-3-1.aspx
Replying to Dan's post, but directed to everyone. Dan is very well
> Brand New issue!
>
> http://www.dc-coin.com/images/products/detail/mm_50_1964d_1.2.jpg
>
> http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-3-1.aspx
respected. He's submitted a number of designs for the Statehood
Quarter program; NY and RI (I believe) having been approved and
circulating now.
I'm sure Dan has checked with the Mint to see if his fantasy coin was
legal. If not, I'm quite sure he wouldn't have produced it.
Jerry
oly
Sep 21, 2011, 10:00:11 PM9/21/11
to
produces circulating coins and sells them to the Federal Reserve
Banking System, and that is 98%+ of what the Mint does. The Mint may
have a legal staff who has an opinion, but their opinion would hardly
be binding. The Mint is hardly some great monolithic entity with all
wisdom; they've proved that time and time again. The Secret Service
probably regulates and polices this type of thing.
oly
Dafcik
Sep 22, 2011, 5:33:58 AM9/22/11
to
Mine arrived Tuesday, have briefly looked at it, but looks to be a 'high
grade' piece, and without doubt, the bell lines are fuller than full. I look
forward to really looking at it, seeing if there are any signs of the host
coin, and may consider sending it off to ANACS.
Another job well done by Mr. Carr!
grade' piece, and without doubt, the bell lines are fuller than full. I look
forward to really looking at it, seeing if there are any signs of the host
coin, and may consider sending it off to ANACS.
Another job well done by Mr. Carr!
Paul Ciszek
Sep 22, 2011, 10:04:51 AM9/22/11
to
In article <caa52852-7a34-41bf...@g30g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
oly <oly...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Much of his argument for legitimacy is close to the line of thought
>that the elongated coin people utilize; and if you strike a fantasy
>coin over a real legitimate coin of the realm, what is the actual loss
>to the state or sovereign???
A Star Trek quatloo or a Harry Potter galleon would be a "fantasy".
>
>Much of his argument for legitimacy is close to the line of thought
>that the elongated coin people utilize; and if you strike a fantasy
>coin over a real legitimate coin of the realm, what is the actual loss
>to the state or sovereign???
A coin that says "United States" and "Half Dollar", and bears the same
images as a coin issued by the United States, is not.
Phil DeMayo
Sep 22, 2011, 2:14:35 PM9/22/11
to
As far as respect goes....I lost most of the respect I had for him
when he got involved with that World Trade Center "tribute" coin.
Richard L. Hall
Sep 22, 2011, 4:02:33 PM9/22/11
to
"Jerry Dennis" <JDen...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7d0ca012-4b46-4e75...@f8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
It seems to me that it is a clear violation of the Hobby Protecction Act
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C48.txt
" (b) Coins and other numismatic items
The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the
United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of
any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently
marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or
practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15
U.S.C. 41 et seq.]."
The Federal Trade Commiossopon seems to in charge of that.
--
Richard
The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of
thinking we were at when we created them. (Albert Einstein)
Gary
Sep 25, 2011, 2:25:26 PM9/25/11
to
WIll PCGS grade these?
0 new messages