Sick of Dealers and Coins
Phil Barnhart
school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented
that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I
had been an avid collector. I told him the truth.
"I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold
almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on
the psyche"
After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA
convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove
to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention
floor than in any court. The bet was on.
We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had
two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from
the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our
story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home
and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55
(value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib
graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100).
Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on
occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed
to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the
New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing
lib. What did the others do?
Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had
similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers
over that area of the case while we chatted.
Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used
the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they
had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers:
1892-O Half Eagle
Low offer: $250
Median offer: $650
High offer: $875
1916 Standing Lib
Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times)
Median offer: $550
High offer: $1300
Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.
"Are you positive about the grade?"
"Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My
standards are very strict."
"What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed.
"They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs.
Slabbing a coin is expensive, though."
"So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How
about $1100?"
He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who
might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay."
"What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased
from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?"
If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their
opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for
it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his
cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted.
My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and
looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.
For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process -
the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them -
this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were
actually worth. The final price:
1916 Standing Lib: $5300
1892-O Half Eagle: $1600
Oh, and why did I take such a low price on the standing lib? I was
actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up;
in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I
could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin
against the grade when he sells it . . .
Ira Stein
>>
I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe.
The 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter was in incredible demand at the Balto ANA,
and at large shows, the dealer knows you'll shop it around and generally will
offer you strong dollars for a desirable coin.
In a slab by one of the two top grading companies, you'll generally receive
considerably more $$ than trying to sell such coins raw as anyone in the
business knows and anti-slabbers refuse to recognize. Many dealers are
uncertain as to what final grade a slabbing company will put on a raw coin and
will protect themselves by offering on the low side of wholesale value,
estimating worst possible case from the grading companies.
As far as the gold coin, many deceptive counterfeits abound, and even if the
coin is genuine, it may have been lightly cleaned and this occurence may not be
clearly noticable on the bourse floor.
Even if a small portion of your scenario is true, I believe we have all learned
that with quality coins it PAYS to get them certified. A far as your opinion
that the so-called AU standing Lib was an AU and not an unc, and then selling
at less than the going price for an AU in a reputable PCGS or NGC holder
stretches the limits of credulity. 2 months ago I sold an NGC graded 1916 AU-53
Standing Lib to dealer JH Cline for $7100 and he sold it fo $7800. It did NOT
have a full Head and was not so designated.
End of story.
Ira Stein
Bruce Hickmott
have written:
>We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had
>two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from
>the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our
>story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home
>and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55
>(value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib
>graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100).
>
Which services graded which coins?
>Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on
>occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed
>to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the
>New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing
>lib. What did the others do?
>
Which dealers said what?
>Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
>World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
>well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
>it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.
>
Who said this?
>For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process -
>the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them -
>this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were
>actually worth. The final price:
>
That's very fast turnaround from PCGS/NGC, especially given that the coin were
raw at the show. Which service turned them around so fast? Who's the LA dealer?
>1916 Standing Lib: $5300
>1892-O Half Eagle: $1600
>
>Oh, and why did I take such a low price on the standing lib? I was
>actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up;
>in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I
>could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin
>against the grade when he sells it . . .
You were offered more and you turned it down? That may not have been wise, for
an AU58 to go to an MS63 is NOT uncommon, PCGS has said they will "upgrade" a
nice AU to MS-something because thats where nice AU's sell. Nice AU's bring more
than ugly mint state.
It's a great story, but with the claims presented you need a few more specific
facts to back it up. certainly, the dealer who offered you too much for the 1916
will remember you, and likely the dealer you took to task as well. If you can
back this up with names, this is the sort of story that should be mailed to Remy
Bourne, the new head of the ANA consumer protection group.
As it stands, you might send it to Gary Lewis. Since it doesn't mention any
names or grading services, he might respond in a general way.
Bruce
Ira Stein
<< Which services graded which coins? >>
<< Which dealers said what? >>
<< Who said this? >>
<< That's very fast turnaround from PCGS/NGC, especially given that the coin
were
raw at the show. Which service turned them around so fast? Who's the LA dealer?
>>
<< You were offered more and you turned it down? That may not have been wise,
for
an AU58 to go to an MS63 is NOT uncommon, PCGS has said they will "upgrade" a
nice AU to MS-something because thats where nice AU's sell. Nice AU's bring
more
than ugly mint state.
It's a great story, but with the claims presented you need a few more specific
facts to back it up. certainly, the dealer who offered you too much for the
1916
will remember you, and likely the dealer you took to task as well. If you can
back this up with names, this is the sort of story that should be mailed to
Remy
Bourne, the new head of the ANA consumer protection group.
As it stands, you might send it to Gary Lewis. Since it doesn't mention any
names or grading services, he might respond in a general way.
Bruce >>
Bruce, you were too kind. The story is 90% bullcrap.
$900 for an AU 1916 SLQ? This poster loves to stir up the pot with stories of
unethical dealers. I doubt he'll ever mention names here or elsewhere, where
such mention could come back and bite him, and bite him hard! I might expect
some kernel of truth had he shopped those two coins at a flea market, but at
the Baltimore ANA?
Ira Stein
joe-float
The first thing that went through my mind was -- "Is this for real?"
Surely you could have gotten an opinion on originality -- someone
would have paid for the coin -- they are, after all, hard to come buy.
HMM. I think that Ira is onto something here.
Edward McGrath
off by paying the guy a little above melt value for a gold coin worth
$4000 so I know there are dishonest dealers in the coin business. I'm
not saying all dealers are dishonest because I don't no all the dealers.
In my experiences I equate the coin dealers to predators waiting to
pounce down on unsuspecting newbies. Your only protection from these
dealers / predators is knowledge. If your as kwowledgable as the dealer
then and only then can you negoiate a fair price for your buys and
sells.
James McCown
> I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe.
I don't.
Phil Barnhart
Ira,
You have proved my point. FIRST I wanted to prove to my friend what
happens when an uneducated person trying to sell a coin meets a coin
dealer. They are - EVERY ONE so far, to be "unethical." To see a
coin you know can be sold for XXX, and to offer only 10% of its value
to the seller because the seller knows nothing about the coin is NOT
good business. It is stealing. And the fact that you cannot believe
that someone who thinks a slabbed coin was overgraded would not sell
it for what he ethically thought it was worth - well that also proves
something, doesn't it. Remember - I cracked these out of PCGS holders
before going in to prove a point to my friend.
And NOT ONE dealer suggested taking it over and getting it slabbed.
And the offers ($50!!!) were not lowball. It was attempted larceny.
Do you honestly believe it is ethical to offer an unknowing seller
(and lie to the seller) a dirt-cheap price for the coin? Do you
realize that if you were an appraiser in antiques, property, jewelry,
and buildings/real estate you could lose your certification and even
be sued in court for these actions? I still remember bringing a
'repro' Tiffany into a dealer 20 years ago. It turned out to be a
'prototype' done in L. C. Tiffany's own hand. The dealer held it for
three days while he researched it, called me and told me what I really
had, and helped me place in a Sotheby's auction. He took a two
percent finders fee (I offered, he did not ask). Do you think ANY
coin dealer would have done the same.
What we've learned is that most dealers are unethical and brag about
ripping off uneducated customers.
Ira Stein
I don't.
>>
Then you are just too gullible, Jim. I hear horror stories like this about
some dealers who own shops. You know the ones...little old widow comes in with
her late husband's prized coin collection and gets 10c on the $ if lucky.
You know, I buy small estates on occasion, and most are raw coins in low grades
that I sell off as a lot. I'm luck to make 10% profit on what I bought and I
often must spend hours at no charge to seller evaluating the collection. When I
buy slabbed coins, I make on average the same net spread as if I'd bought them
at a show. Most dealers will tell you the same thing.
It is impossible to believe that at a large show, he just managed to find 100%
of the dishonest dealers in that huge hall.
Let's not just paint all coin dealers with the same broad brush of that
prevaricating and exaggerating poster.
If I saw ANY dealer doing what he descibed it would be the LAST $$ he'd EVER
get from me. Ditto if he bragged about doing that to someone selling him
something.
Ira Stein
DONDI3
dahli...@webtv.net (Edward McGrath) writes:
Your comment is as vague as the original story. My (non-numismatic) brother in
law still thinks that I'm trying to rip him on a couple of commems (Grant and
Monroe) that he swears are worth $6500. I've seen 'em and they're polished,
complete with hairlines and high gloss. The Grant might retail for $75 and the
Monroe around $20. I've offered him $80. He's told me several times that "a
guy" at a flea market told him 10-15 years ago they were worth the $6500 and
that he'd pay $5500 for 'em. "The guy" surprisingly lost interest in his
collection and doesn't want them, of course, but my BIL still wants $5K for
'em. They'll bury them with him, before he sells 'em for less than $4K, he
sez, and he's told the story probably several hundred times. It's one of the
reasons I'm very skeptical when I hear stories like yours and the original
poster's. Some are vicious fabrications meant to damage the coin business, and
others are simple misunderstandings and/or exagerations. I wish I had a nickel
for everyone who shows me a AG/Good coin worth $5 and points to the MS65 column
in their redbook and wants $750 for it.
I wasn't even going to comment on that original posting because it's so
transparently phony that I can't see ANYONE believing it. I'd guess someone had
a good time writing that bit of fiction and even added that cute "upgrade" coup
de grace in their enthusiasm. I, too, agree that not all dealers are honest and
not all offer fair prices when offered high value coins. But for 40 dealers at
any major show, or even a regional or state show to pass up a chance to handle
a "hot" and easily upgradable coin like an AU '16 SLQ is totally ridiculous. I
would have maybe bought into a couple of lowball bids from guys who didn't have
the money or just a few slimballs, but why would anyone let a deal walk where
$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never made it past
my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show, probably
before I ate supper.
I'm glad a couple others spoke up and posted their thoughts.
Dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.
Jack Russell
> My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and
> looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
> these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
> criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
> And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
> entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
> certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.
What are going to do after you find out the $50 bottle of wine you bought
only cost the winery $12 to produce?
Jack
Blaine
years ago I was ripped off selling a gold coin.
It wasn't until some time had passed that I realized just how bad I was
taken
"Edward McGrath" <dahli...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27192-3F4...@storefull-2372.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Clark Smith
And then what will you do when you realize the $50 bottle of wine was
marked up 100% by the wine seller?
Other wine sellers will then pay you only 50% for your unopened
bottles you want to sell back to a wine dealer.
Another question. What business are YOU in? I'd like to know.
~AZ Rider~
you possess> to educate themselves on their holdings. In this day and
age, more than any prior, arming yourself with information is not a
difficult task.
Sure, there's a sucker born every minute.. but then again, there's_also
a market for wooden nickels.
just my 2¢
JSTONE9352
investigation on something like this.
Hidden tape recorders and video of the
interaction between the seller and the
dealer. A major convention would probably prohibit this so it would have
to be done very carefully.
Fred
Convention. I would like to have some fun! I have a 1916-D Mercury Dime I
can do it with.
<g>
Fred <~~~~~ so bored
"Phil Barnhart" <pbar...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3c951a96.03082...@posting.google.com...
Eric Tillery
[snip]
>Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
>World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
>well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
>it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.
[snip]
Now come on. I am well known for calling out dishonest dealers, and have
taken a lot of flak for it. But I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, and apparently
from your post and the excerpt above, you are claiming there wasn't a single
dealer who was ethical and/or honest. I don't buy it, there is a lot in your story
that does not add up.
--
K6AZ WEB PAGES
Phil Barnhart
I have provided people lists of the dealers; I even have had a phone
conference with two of the dealers and another ANA member who emailed
me about this post. These dealers confirmed my story. My question is
that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know me?
Why not email me and ask me for more information? I am not trying to
sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my
experience while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid,
etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people.
And you prove my point:
"$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never
made it past
my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show,
probably
before I ate supper."
Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately
think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the
end of the hall and slab it. Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the
money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can
say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you
want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a
valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a
fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people. Smart
dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector.
Phil Barnhart
Spectator is, and not worry that someone dipped my bottle or stuck it
in an ACG slab to make it taste better.
"Jack Russell" <jack...@ync.net> wrote in message news:<lcScnS3qBb2...@ync.net>...
Phil Barnhart
estate. HOW are you going to educate yourself? Library references in
most towns are woefully out of date and inadequate. Do a Google
search on coin collecting (make it fair - pick a subject you know
NOTHING about collecting, do a search, and give yourself a half-hour -
could you now determine the value of a particular item? Nope). So
what are ya going to do. What would a typical non-collector do?
Since numismatics is one of the few areas without independent
appraisers, you take your coins to the local dealer . . . .
What else would someone do? Reasonably?
bassin ma...@webtv.net (~AZ Rider~) wrote in message news:<1122-3F4...@storefull-2175.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> IMO it is the responsibility of the coin holder <and/or whatever it is
> you possess> to educate themselves on their holdings. In this day and
> age, more than any prior, arming yourself with information is not a
> difficult task.
>
> Sure, there's a sucker born every minute.. but then again, there's also
Phil Barnhart
disabilities; consult with companies on making electronic
communication devices accessible, and am a single parent of a
beautiful and smart daughter.
Clark Smith <csmit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<f1hokv0d38kcl1d4h...@4ax.com>...
Bruce Hickmott
written:
>Bruce Hickmott responds to Phil barnhart's post:
I remain openminded, but I'll treat it as internet news until I get some
checkable information.
He said in another post he shared that information with other unnamed dealers
and they confirmed it, so perhaps he'll post it here. I'll be happy to make the
needed phone calls to comfirm and will post my results.
I've had very lowball offers on coins as well, some approching the level of
fraud. But hitting a crook every time at the ANA show with a coin that would
sell immediately (for an AU58 1916 SLQ they could just have you paged ;-) )
implies an amazing amount of luck or careful preselection of dealers.
Bruce
John Stone
> you possess> to educate themselves on their holdings. In this day and
> age, more than any prior, arming yourself with information is not a
> difficult task.
>
> a market for wooden nickels.
>
> just my 2
I think it is more the responsiblity of a coin dealer to give a fair offer
for coins then it is for the seller to understand all the ins and outs
of the coin business. A feeble old woman who inherited her husbands collection
probably is not going to understand the MS grading system. She shouldn't be
ripped off for lack of knowledge.
Alan & Erin Williams
A virile young man should? ;-)
The part of the story that rings the BS meter is the thought that *any
dealer* in a super-competitive environment like an ANA show is going to
risk having a 1916 SLQ go down the street by making a $50 offer.
A rainy Tuesday afternoon in the store front? I'd say it was possible.
Next door to 300+ competitors on the biggest bourse floor of the year?
That would be stupid. ;-)
Alan
'unless there's a bigger conspiracy than revealed'
James McCown
> James McCown states:
>
> << ir...@aol.comnospam (Ira Stein) wrote in message
> news:<20030826115200...@mb-m16.aol.com>...
> > I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe.
>
> I don't.
>
> >>
>
> Then you are just too gullible, Jim. I hear horror stories like this about
> some dealers who own shops. You know the ones...little old widow comes in with
> her late husband's prized coin collection and gets 10c on the $ if lucky.
Well, Ira, I'll give you just one example of what I have seen.
A non-collector in Columbus was trying to sell a collection she
inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent
dealer in the area (hint:Westerville) and was unsure whether or not to
accept it. A friend of mine who runs an antique store asked me to look
at the woman's coins. Here is just a partial list:
(1) Complete set of indian cents. The 1877 was at least MS-63 BN.
(2) Complete set of standing liberty quarters. The 1916 and the
overdate were decent VG's and the 1927-S was a solid MS-60.
(3) Nearly complete set of Morgan dollars (lacking 1895-P and 1893-S).
The 89-CC was XF.
so far as I could tell, all of the key dates were genuine.
The offer was $500!
This kind of crap goes on all the time, at coin shows and elsewhere.
I don't understand why, but there is some adverse selection problem
that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin dealers. You can
stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want, but it's a fact.
Fred
newbie.
Back in April, we had Chief Engraver John Mercanti come to our coin club to
speak. He always signs our COA's to the Commems that he has done at the end
of the meeting.
Before the meeting, to kill time, I always go to my coin dealers shop and
hang out. I had brought a few commems for Mr. Mercanti to autograph but I
wanted one more. I chose the 1986 SoL set(the silver dollar and the clad
half). My dealer looked at THREE different price guides and quoted that it
would cost me $28!!!!! The set at the time only sold for something around
$16-$18!!!!!
He was simply trying to capitalize on my need to get something autographed.
However, I do not intend to sell these on eBay and hence, I declined his
offer. So, the search continues for the set. Atleast I have the power to
say "NO". THAT is the most powerful word in this hobby!
I have other horror stories of the injustices that were done to me but I
will spare the audience.
Fred
"Phil Barnhart" <pbar...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3c951a96.03082...@posting.google.com...
Bill Krummel
"James McCown" <flec...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f70ca421.03082...@posting.google.com...
I have sold individual coins to dealers at coin shows perhaps a half dozen
times. Every offer I had was reasonable, and I have never been lowballed at
a coin show.
I took a number of coins to St. Louis one time and showed to a prominent
dealer located in St. Louis. When I left, I left with less than half of the
coins I took in, selling the rest to the coin dealer. While I did not
accept the dealer's offer on the coins I kept, I would say his offer was
reasonable, and nothing close to a lowball offer.
I was lowballed once. I answered an ad in a local paper, took some coins to
the man's house, and stayed long enough to hear his first offer. I had an
AU RB two cent piece and I was offered $2. I said "no thanks, I'll can see
myself out". This guy was probably what is called a vest pocket dealer,
but I have no clue. I suspect he customarily offered 5 cents on the dollar
and probably did all right when he found takers.
My experience with dealers at coin shows and in coin shops have been 100%
solid. Maybe I have been lucky. Bill
Bill Krummel
Phil, I have read and enjoyed this thread from the start. I, too, have a
difficult time believing that your experiences were as bad as you portrayed,
for at least two reasons. First, I have never had a lowball experience with
a dealer, other than one brief experience with what I believe is called a
"vest pocket" dealer, who worked his deals out of his home.
Second, like several others, I find it hard to believe that the coin show
dealers in your story would still be in business with the type of antics you
say they were trying to pull. If the story implied a small percentage
tried to lowball you, I could accept that, concluding that the few
lowballers would not stay in business very long.
I took an Isabella quarter, ICG AU58 to the St. Louis Silver Dollar show
last October. I showed it to 5 or 6 dealers. Every dealer I showed it to
thought it was overgraded by ICG, and I agreed, feeling the same way before
I ever entered the hall. Half of the dealers did not want to make an offer,
simply saying they were not interested. A couple of dealers made offers
that I could refuse, and did, but they were not what I would call low ball
offers. One dealer said he thought the coin was not an AU58 and asked me
what I thought the coin graded. I told him I didn't think it was a 58, but
it was better than a 50 and that's as close as I would come to a grade. He
asked me how much I wanted, I told him a figure and he took it. I don't
consider a single dealer at this show as a bad experience. I also sold a
couple of ancients for a friend at the same show, offered about half of
retail, with the explanation that he had abundant supply, which was evident
from his case. I took the offer happily and do not consider the offer as
unfair or lowball.
I have had several (maybe a half dozen) other good experiences at smaller,
local coin shows, getting what I thought were strong offers and taking them.
I just have a hard time imagining a dealer offering $50 on a coin that is a
solid $4,000 coin; not in a hall full of dealers that would reveal my offer
as way out of line. I can't imagine a dealer offering $50 on a coin when
even an offer of $2,000 would represent a guaranteed profit and the
potential for tremendous profit. Why would any business man let that kind
of profit walk away from the table by making a stupid offer. That goes
against logic, and my personal experiences.
So, I understand why your story is getting strong resistance. It is just
hard to believe. Bill
Harv
> estate. HOW are you going to educate yourself? Library references in
> most towns are woefully out of date and inadequate. Do a Google
> search on coin collecting (make it fair - pick a subject you know
> NOTHING about collecting, do a search, and give yourself a half-hour -
> could you now determine the value of a particular item? Nope). So
> what are ya going to do. What would a typical non-collector do?
> Since numismatics is one of the few areas without independent
> appraisers, you take your coins to the local dealer . . . .
>
> What else would someone do? Reasonably?
Find or make a friend who is an experienced collector, sit down with him and
his collection and your stuff and start asking questions. How does anyone
learn about anything? They have a teacher or a mentor. Were you born knowing
how to drive or how to balance a checkbook or ride a bicycle or use a
computer? I've been using computers since the late 1970s and still don't
pretend to know everything, and still ask questions of friends who
specialize in certain areas in which my knowledge is lacking. Of course I
don't NEED to know everything there is to know. I don't NEED to know how to
program in assembly language. If you're trying to sell coins, you don't NEED
to know the mechanics of how a coin press works..
You can only take "self taught" to a certain limit, and then you have to
seek the advice of others with more experience and just start asking a lot
of questions. There's only so much you get from buying a pile of coin books
and trying to teach yourself what it all means.
Unfortunately, they don't give college courses in Numismatics, but if there
really are tens of millions of collectors in the US, they probably should..
If they did, all those ripoff teevee coin selling shows would soon go away
as people learned what a scam they are. Dealers wouldn't rub their hands
with glee like Mr. Burns when they fleece an uneducated seller out of a
valuable coin for pennies on the dollar.
It's like anything else in life. If you wanna play the game, you have to
learn the rules.. and the best way to learn the rules are from someone else
who already knows them..
Harv
DONDI3
GREAT. Then posting it here will be no problem for you, will it?
>I even have had a phone conference with two of the dealers and another ANA
>member who emailed me about this post.These dealers confirmed my story.
Good, we can use their names to verify your story also. We're all fascinated
as to why those lowlifes suddenly decided to admit to their crimes. Who are
they?
My question is that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know
me?
If someone told you the Moon had just fell into the ocean, how well do you feel
you'd have to know before deciding he was a liar?
>Why not email me and ask me for more information?
If I think you're lying in your posting, why do think I'd believe your email?
I am not trying to
>sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my
>experience
Good, tell us those "other collectors" who'll confirm your experience. We're
all ears.
while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid,
>etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people.
pot...kettle...
>
>And you prove my point:
>
>"$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never
>made it past
>my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show,
>probably
>before I ate supper."
Well, let's see:
1892-O half eagle...AU bid $1000
1916 standing lib...AU $5250, MS63 $8250.
Now if I had offered a little back of bid, say 10% back or so (not likely on a
hot coin like the quarter, especially in a roomful of salivating competition,
I'd have offered between $5626 and $8125, depending on my grading skills. If
I'm wrong about the quarter, I stand to lose $5K. In return I'm making a 7% to
9% markup. I'm anxious to hear what a "real consultant" thinks would be a more
reasonable fee for grading, authenticating and making the sale.
>Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately
>think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the
>end of the hall and slab it.
Yeah, that's a good idea. Get him and his $500 profit away from my table and
past the other 300 dealers. Some of those guys can *smell* a 16 SLQ from
across the street.
Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the
>money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can
>say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you
>want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a
>valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a
>fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people.
Now look at what you wrote! Above you took me to task for doubting your tale,
and now you divine that I'd tell my friends that my customers are "rubes,
clueless and stupid" Jaded...? See why I said, "pot...kettle..."?
Smart dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector.
>
Ya know, I think you're right. We're all better off with you tasting wine.
Judging by your claims, you've already started.
I wish you great success with your new hobby.
Dondi3
(coin collecting won't kill your liver)
Ira Stein
<< Well, Ira, I'll give you just one example of what I have seen.
A non-collector in Columbus was trying to sell a collection she
inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent
dealer in the area (hint:Westerville) and was unsure whether or not to
accept it. A friend of mine who runs an antique store asked me to look
at the woman's coins. Here is just a partial list:
(1) Complete set of indian cents. The 1877 was at least MS-63 BN.
(2) Complete set of standing liberty quarters. The 1916 and the
overdate were decent VG's and the 1927-S was a solid MS-60.
(3) Nearly complete set of Morgan dollars (lacking 1895-P and 1893-S).
The 89-CC was XF.
so far as I could tell, all of the key dates were genuine.
The offer was $500!
This kind of crap goes on all the time, at coin shows and elsewhere.
I don't understand why, but there is some adverse selection problem
that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin dealers. You can
stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want, but it's a fact.
>>
An adverse selection process that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin
dealers? Well, thank you Jim for that vote of confidence! I called you
gullible, and you call me a miscreant of the first order!
There's slimeballs in any business, whether it's antiques, coins, stamps
collectible sports cards, or jewlery business.
If that offer happened the way you stated, and that was that dealer's standard
way of doing business, he'd be out of business in short order. That type of
rip-off rarely goes unnoticed, as these guys love to brag about those deals!
These anecdotes are called "my Aunt Emma" stories. The teller seeks to "prove
his point" with a single point of light. Hardly using the scientific method!
Ira Stein
DONDI3
flec...@yahoo.com (James McCown) writes:
>I don't understand why, but there is some adverse selection problem
>that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin dealers.
Could it be same infection that drives people to make up stories with NO
documentation that are so transparently illogical that a 3rd grader would
scoff...and then act shocked when folks point out the flaws in them?
Dondi3
(if you want me to believe the sky is falling, you're gonna hafta show me piece
of it)
DONDI3
(Ira Stein) writes:
>
>An adverse selection process that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin
>dealers? Well, thank you Jim for that vote of confidence! I called you
>gullible, and you call me a miscreant of the first order!
>
>There's slimeballs in any business, whether it's antiques, coins, stamps
>collectible sports cards, or jewlery business.
From priests to Presidents!
>
>If that offer happened the way you stated, and that was that dealer's
>standard way of doing business, he'd be out of business in short order. That
type of
>rip-off rarely goes unnoticed, as these guys love to brag about those deals!
>
>These anecdotes are called "my Aunt Emma" stories. The teller seeks to "prove
>his point" with a single point of light. Hardly using the scientific method!
>
>
>Ira Stein
Clearly, these kinds of stories eventually lead to "can you top this?" stuff
like we're seeing now. Where the creators all fall flat is ignoring how the
coin market works. Most of them have real little knowledge of the intense
competition between dealers at coin shows. They never really explain why
anyone, let alone a professional trying to make a living, would let thousands
of dollars in legitimate potential profit walk away when a reasonable offer
would make them a handsome return. You'll never see any names named, just more
outlandish nonsense that can't be proven or disproven, but that most collectors
and all dealers will recognize as false. Rather than post verifiable facts,
like names or witnesses, they'll resort to name calling and ever taller tales
to "prove" their stories.
Dondi3
(how do think Paul Bunyan got to be that big?)
JSTONE9352
>inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent
>dealer in the area (hint:Westerville)
I know who that would be. No names
from me (smile face here).
JSTONE9352
>his point" with a single point of light. Hardly using the scientific method!
>
What scientific method would that be?
Ira Stein
<< What scientific method would that be? >>
Many samples, test repeated with same coins over a much larger dealer sample
size, particularly at a medium to large sized show where competition would
force dealers to be competitive.
I heard these stories till I'm sick of them, always unsubstantiated and each
re-telling increases the enormity of the ripoff.
If you'all want to jump on this Barnhardt character's original claim of
deception at the ANA Convention, be my guest.
Buy all your stuff from pawnshops and barn auctions and flea markets. Oh yes,
don't forget the marvelous items at the average club auction after the meeting!
Don't buy ANYTHING on eBay because the sellers are all scam artists there as
well, aren't they?
Avoid legitimate dealers like the plague. You're bound to get great prices and
huge selections at the flea markets. Don't buy anything certified by reputable
3rd party companies because they're all ripoffs too as the major dealers can
get ANY grade they want by simply asking.
Excuse me, but I'm off to mix myself a Bloody Mary with an extra dose of
Absolute.
Ira Stein
Frank Provasek
Obviously a work of fiction.
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO MINIMUMS http://frankcoins.com
Ebay Powerseller FRANKCOINS Texas Auction License 11259
Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association, Fort Worth Coin Club.
Member: Texas Numismatic Assoc, American Numismatic Assoc.
Keith Michaels
The dissatisfaction with dealers stems from irrefutable logic:
Rare coins are valuable.
Collectors want valuable coins.
There's not enough rare coins to provide stock for dealers, so dealers
pretend their own (common) coins are valuable, and devalue the coins
of others. This is because they live off difference between what a savvy
collector will pay and what a naive collector will pay, and maximizing
profit requires keeping the two as far apart as possible. This is not a
free market; it thrives by limiting the flow of information. If you don't
believe me take your collection to a dealer and see what is offered, then
see what it goes for on ebay.
Keith Fletcher
adopting the values, standards and practices of some of our millionaire
exectuvies at some of our larger corporations, like Enron! Oh, never mind
them ... Worldcom! Oh, darn ... uh ... Merril Lynch! .... Geez ... OK, OK,
Arthur Andersen! Oops, uh, let's make that ... Tyco! Yes! oh, doh, uh
...Global Crosssing but they .. uh uh ...
Adelphia, JP Morgan, ImClone, Duke Energy...
Aw, forget it.
Frank Provasek
>
>The dissatisfaction with dealers stems from irrefutable logic:
>
>Rare coins are valuable.
>
>Collectors want valuable coins.
>
>There's not enough rare coins to provide stock for dealers, so dealers
>pretend their own (common) coins are valuable, and devalue the coins
>of others. This is because they live off difference between what a savvy
>collector will pay and what a naive collector will pay, and maximizing
>profit requires keeping the two as far apart as possible. This is not a
>free market; it thrives by limiting the flow of information. If you don't
>believe me take your collection to a dealer and see what is offered, then
>see what it goes for on ebay.
Compare the true wholesale cost of most consumer goods,
particularly jewelry and clothes, with retail. and you will see that coins
have a lower spread than almost anything else you buy.
A dealer that pretends his own common coins are valuable will
not sell many.
A dealer that devalues the coins of others will not buy many for
inventory.
Try running a coin shop for a month without going nuts.
The hot checks, stolen credit cards.
The people who bring in a 1943 steel peeny and scream at you because
you wont pay the 1/4 million dollars that Paul Harvey said it was
worth.
The people who buy phony coins from the flea market and scream at
you that you are trying to lowball them by saying they are phony.
The people who want you to make a firm offer based on a list of
coins with prices from a coin book they bought from the dime store
( all proof 65, or course)
People who bring in coins and scream at you because you won't
give them a profit over what they paid Littleton or Coin Vault.
Cops who have nothing better to do than "sting" operations where they
take some coins, PRETEND they are stolen, then take them to coin
dealers and see if they try and buy them.
Keith Fletcher
"Eric Tillery" <nos...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:sh8pkvgjn056bj7et...@4ax.com...
JSTONE9352
>A dealer that pretends his own common coins are valuable will
>not sell many.
>
Unless they are the Home Shopping
Network (smile face here).
Bruce Remick
That's the same opinion I would have offered. If you have come into a
collection of something that you believe may be valuable and want to
sell it, get someone you can confide in to help you get advice as to the
best place to sell it--if you must. Unless you have to have cash in
your hands by Tuesday, you should have plenty of time to explore the
possibilities. I have little sympathies for the person, elderly or not,
who unloads inherited valuables or collectibles just because he doesn't
know anything about their true worth and won't take the time to find
out. Ironically, I would like to leave my coin collection to the
relative who is the most well off and would be the least likely to run
out and unload it the next day.
Bruce
Blaine
inherited valuables or collectibles just because he doesn't
know anything about their true worth and won't take the time to find out."
Wonderful attitude and great compassion you have for humanity.
In my business, Bonds, that is called fraud.
It is regulated at multiple levels and your coldhearted response is an
attitude that would get you barred from the Bond business.
Perhaps you would cheer for me if the next recently widowed old lady brought
her husbands life savings in and I paid 25 cents on the dollar.
Get a conscience you fool.
"Bruce Remick" <re...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F4D587A...@erols.com...
Blaine
why did it take so long for someone to point out this game dealers play, if
thats the reason?
"Cliff" <cli...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:76gpkvkv4u1bi15f8...@4ax.com...
> Eric Tillery <nos...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>
> >On 26 Aug 2003 08:15:44 -0700, pbar...@texas.net (Phil Barnhart) wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >>Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
> >>World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
> >>well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
> >>it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >Now come on. I am well known for calling out dishonest dealers, and have
> >taken a lot of flak for it. But I didn't just fall off the turnip truck,
and apparently
> >from your post and the excerpt above, you are claiming there wasn't a
single
> >dealer who was ethical and/or honest. I don't buy it, there is a lot in
your story
> >that does not add up.
> > --
> >K6AZ WEB PAGES
> >
> >http://www.k6az.com/web_pages.htm
>
> It is well known, at least among the dealers I know, that when they
> know someone is playing a game with them, which this person obviously
> was, that they'll either low ball or just walk away. There are any
> number of people who have a nice coin or two and get their jollies
> from walking them around the floor with no intention of selling, but
> are just playing a game to see if they can make a dealer squirm.
> After a while a good dealer can spot these folks coming, just like
> this story where 2, probably smug looking individuals walk up and play
> dumb, trying to play a game with the dealer. The person in the story
> was lucky he wasn't just told to pound hot sand and stop wasting the
> dealers time.
> Cliff
>
Blaine
and some are in jail.
Perhaps you should explain what penalty their is for the unscrupulous coin
dealer.
BTW I think there are just a few bad apples in the bunch. Most are not
blatantly dishonest.
"Keith Fletcher" <flet...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:%4b3b.19595$lk1....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Keith Fletcher
Which individuals among them have had their East Hampton Houses taken away?
How many have been reduced to a middle class standard of living because the
money they stole from middle class people was returned to those wronged? A
few months in the Mediterranean on the yacht will sure ease their bruised
feelings.
Sorry, but the truth is few people have gone to jail for this. And the
fines were just slaps on the wrist. Heck, World Com is going to come out of
bankruptcy with an unfair advantage over Sprint and others who played by the
rules. This may happen as soon as September 8.
--Keith
"Blaine" <blain...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZLm3b.7895$3E....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Bruce Remick
>
> "I have little sympathies for the person, elderly or not, who unloads
> inherited valuables or collectibles just because he doesn't
> know anything about their true worth and won't take the time to find out."
>
> Wonderful attitude and great compassion you have for humanity.
> In my business, Bonds, that is called fraud.
> It is regulated at multiple levels and your coldhearted response is an
> attitude that would get you barred from the Bond business.
> Perhaps you would cheer for me if the next recently widowed old lady brought
> her husbands life savings in and I paid 25 cents on the dollar.
>
> Get a conscience you fool.
>
Your asshole attitude aside, I don't know what you're talking about.
Are you saying that if I inherited some bonds (excuse me, Bonds!) I
would be committing fraud if I sought some advice as to their worth and
how and where to liquidate them? Take a look at my original post again
and try to comprehend what I said before you blast in here with your
anonymous insults. You must attract a lot of customers with that
attitude of yours.
Bruce
Keith Michaels
I have great sympathy for coin dealers; it's a tough business. Profits
aren't that great in commodity coins so if you have a chance to get your
hands on a rarity you do whatever you can to get it, including lowballing,
"playing" the seller, etc. In other industries it could be called
unfair, collusion, fraud, etc., but in coins (and other collectibles)
it's just business. Why should this be so?
I heard a person in the diamond industry answering similar charges
of price-fixing, closed markets, the cartel, etc., saying that
since their product is a pure luxury (no one needs diamonds)
that regulation was not needed; the true value is whatever a buyer
is willing to pay. You hear the same thing from coin dealers.
Legality and ethics aside, dealers should want to do what is best for
the industry which means leaving consumers with a positive feeling
and encouragement to pursue the hobby. In other words delivering
true value. I can't see that happening without some sort of
regulation.
-K
DFloyd
news:3F4CAE3C...@mindspring.com:
> 'unless there's a bigger conspiracy than revealed'
>
As usual your tag has hit on the truth of the issue.
This banter isn't going to sway anyone. It only reinforces the believes of
those that want to believe such sweeping generalizations.
All generalizations are always untrue. ;o)
so ne
the industry which means leaving consumers with a positive feeling and
encouragement to pursue the hobby. In other words delivering true value.
I can't see that happening without some sort of regulation.
-K>>>>>
country. Like none of us has any brains. Best part is the hypocrits
making the rules.
several years ago, in NYS, our legislators wanted to make a rule
against "obnoxious odors". Please. we would be fined for F**ting in
public? Of course I am a female so I don't do those things. ;);)
IMHO coin dealers are no more thought to be untrust worthy than any
other self owned business. For some reason, the Wal Mart , etc, on the
consumer level are not questioned by the consumer. I know the head dogs
are always questionable, but a small business person is thought to be
untrustworthy. Weird and makes no sense. Treat people the way you want
to be treated. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!!
Doris
"By all means marry: If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you
get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." (Socrates)
Calling ALL Australians!
See http://home.iprimus.com.au/wpbalcombe/ then please leave feedback
re OZ DAIRY CRISIS at http://geocities.yahoo.com/gb/sign?member=balcs9
Coin Saver
>All generalizations are always untrue. ;o)>
Does this mean the conspiracy has been called off? Why wasn't I informed?
8-)
Coin Saver
Alan & Erin Williams
I just added my newsreader to the National "Do Not Prevaricate" list.
Any posters violating this list after October 1, 2003 will be reported
to the FTC, SEC, FBI, CIA, OSS, SSA, IRS, DoD, OPM, PTA, NSA, CBS, DJI
and any other three letter acronyms that are handy.
Thank You.
Alan
'part of a larger secret with ritual greetings'
James McCown
> An adverse selection process that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin
> dealers? Well, thank you Jim for that vote of confidence! I called you
> gullible, and you call me a miscreant of the first order!
I didn't say that all dealers are miscreants. Many are.
> There's slimeballs in any business, whether it's antiques, coins, stamps
> collectible sports cards, or jewlery business.
>
> If that offer happened the way you stated, and that was that dealer's standard
> way of doing business, he'd be out of business in short order. That type of
> rip-off rarely goes unnoticed, as these guys love to brag about those deals!
He's still in business.
> These anecdotes are called "my Aunt Emma" stories. The teller seeks to "prove
> his point" with a single point of light. Hardly using the scientific method!
> Ira Stein
This attempted ripoff is just one example. There are many others.
James McCown
>
> Compare the true wholesale cost of most consumer goods,
> particularly jewelry and clothes, with retail. and you will see that coins
> have a lower spread than almost anything else you buy.
But if you go to Walmart or Sears to buy clothes, the salespeople
won't try to tell you that they are selling you "investments" that
will increase in value.
WinWinscenario
are far too common and not all anecdotal.
A prominent member of the PNG (since resigned), Ronald J. Gillio, was indicted
last year on felony charges of trying to swindle an old man out of his
valuables.
Littleton runs an ad all the time about an old woman who wanted to sell a $5
note, and who took it to a series of dealers who offered her a tiny fraction of
its true value (see, for example, Coinworld, 10/03, p.102, where an edited
version of the story appears in their latest ad).
It would be nice if all the horror stories were just that, stories, but the
unpleasant reality is that there are crooks among us.
Regards,
Tom
Ira Stein
<< It's unfortunate, but stories about the unscrupulous behavior of coin
dealers
are far too common and not all anecdotal.
A prominent member of the PNG (since resigned), Ronald J. Gillio, was indicted
last year on felony charges of trying to swindle an old man out of his
valuables.
<snip>
It would be nice if all the horror stories were just that, stories, but the
unpleasant reality is that there are crooks among us. >>
Ron Gillio has been indicted, NOT convicted. When & IF he's been convicted,
THEN you may call him a crook.
I will agree there are crooks among is, as that's certainly true.
Too bad the coin dealers can't be honest and trustworthy like corporate
executives raiding employee pension funds, like folks collecting unemployment
insurance and/or disability benefits and yet are working "under the table,"
like the doctors and hospitals that phony up non-existent tests and other
illusory medical procedures, like the dentists who collect Medicaid benefits
from patients who haven't shown up for years yet are still in the records, like
our wonderful politicians who always tell us the truth yet feather their own
nests by collecting $140,000/yr for like after merely serving one terms, like
stock brokers who churn the acc'ts of widows and the elderly putting them into
high risk investments in which the brokerage house has a position, and so on.
Regards,
Ira Stein
DONDI3
Tom, no one's saying that ALL dealers are honest. ...but 40 of 40 is
preposterous.
I'd guess out of 40 "man on the street" interviews, one is likely to find quite
a few law breakers and a couple of felons in the group...but because Littleton
documents a crook or anyone else finds a couple of people among the group
sometimes loosely described as "coin dealers" who are not honest, please do not
indict the whole group. The situation described in the original post was
blatantly phony and transparently created by someone with nothing better to do,
who has chosen not to offer any reasonable proof of facts he presented.
We're not perfect, but we're no worse than you'd find in any profession. As I
said, no profession from presidents to priests is without its shysters ...but
those who attempt to embellish or totally fabricate the truth do more damage to
the cases of real problem individuals when they do arise. These rabble rousers
toss accusations and then run & hide when asked for some simple, verifiable
facts to document their stories. What purpose they serve or satisfaction they
gain, I can't imagine. The fortunate thing is that most of them are not smart
enough to write a believable scenario and like our original poster, are so
transparently lying, that it makes it quite a simple matter to shoot holes in
their stories.
dondi3
DFloyd
news:20030829105724...@mb-m27.aol.com:
Didn't you get the memo, the vote to replace conspiracy with paranoia
passed.
Alan & Erin Williams
When?? Who Voted For That??? Why won;t they SAY SO PUBLICALLY????
Alan
'what?'
DFloyd
>
> I just added my newsreader to the National "Do Not Prevaricate" list.
>
So you won't be reading any more posts?? ;o)
Well, I hope you'll continue to post!
Yousri Ahmad
--
Yousri
ANA R-210745
World Mints: http://yousri.home.comcast.net
"Alan & Erin Williams" <will...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3F4FDDC9...@mindspring.com...
DFloyd
2114.public.lawson.webtv.net:
> Treat people the way you want
> to be treated. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!!
> Doris
>
I couldn't agree more.
I was in a shop no too long ago and a grandfather came in with his 2
young grandsons. The dealer gave them each a bag of cents to search and
fill their albums. The deal was that if they find anything valuable they
split the sale price 50/50 with him. He tossed in a couple of IHC for
them to find.
Now there's a guy who hides being a puke really well.
I'm sure he's just setting those kids up so he can rip them off whem they
get older.;o)
DFloyd
>
> When?? Who Voted For That??? Why won;t they SAY SO PUBLICALLY????
>
> Alan
> 'what?'
>
Tweak, increase your caffine intake. ;o)
Robert
point out that there are thieves in other walks of life as well. Of course
there are. This , however, doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of
thieves in the coin business.
"Ira Stein" <ir...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030829151941...@mb-m17.aol.com...
Scott Stevenson
Maybe it's because they're out to get you...
take care, (lots of care),
Scott
who knows what you did last summer...
Bruce Remick
>
> This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law
> school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented
> that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I
> had been an avid collector. I told him the truth.
>
> "I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold
> almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on
> the psyche"
Where did you sell your coins? Did you get your price for them? What
was so hard on your psyche? Collecting? Constant selling? Constant
buying? If coin collecting was stressful for you, wait until you get a
little deeper into your life.
>
> After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA
> convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove
> to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention
> floor than in any court. The bet was on.
This is sounding more and more like a high school homework paper.
>
> We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had
> two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from
> the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our
> story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home
> and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55
> (value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib
> graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100).
Smart move. Throw away re-slabbing costs for $6-7,000 worth of coins to
play your little game. Nice to be wealthy, I guess.
>
> Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on
> occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed
> to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the
> New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing
> lib. What did the others do?
>
> Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had
> similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers
> over that area of the case while we chatted.
Did you ever tell any dealer what price YOU wanted? With that BS story
you were handing out, I would guess most dealers you approached
suspected your two "raw" coins were stolen and they would lose their
money if the police came to claim them. Did you have your baseball cap
on backwards?
>
> Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used
> the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they
> had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers:
>
> 1892-O Half Eagle
> Low offer: $250
> Median offer: $650
> High offer: $875
>
> 1916 Standing Lib
> Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times)
> Median offer: $550
> High offer: $1300
>
> Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
> World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
> well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
> it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.
>
> "Are you positive about the grade?"
>
> "Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My
> standards are very strict."
>
> "What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed.
>
> "They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs.
> Slabbing a coin is expensive, though."
>
> "So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How
> about $1100?"
>
> He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who
> might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay."
>
> "What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased
> from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?"
>
> If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their
> opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for
> it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his
> cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted.
One story out of 40?
>
> My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and
> looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
> these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
> criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
> And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
> entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
> certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.
Stop! You're making us cry. What do you think those dealers thought
about YOU? Anyway, now you can relax tasting wines with the little
finger crowd and sharing BS stories about a provocative vintage or that
sassy little chardonet. Perhaps you'll fit in better with that crowd.
>
> For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process -
> the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them -
> this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were
> actually worth. The final price:
>
> 1916 Standing Lib: $5300
> 1892-O Half Eagle: $1600
>
From AU to MS-63? I'm surprised you didn't claim the slabbing companies
are unethical. too. Be honest now. Didn't you get the feeling you
ripped someone off when you saw that MS63? You said you were LOL.
Bruce
DONDI3
<log...@neo.rr.com> writes:
>Ira Stein is making me laugh now....what a scumbag. All he wants to do is
>point out that there are thieves in other walks of life as well. Of course
>there are. This , however, doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of
>thieves in the coin business.
Glad you're getting a chuckle out of it. That was my reaction to the original
post, but apparently there are those who are more than willing to believe that
40 out of 40 dealers tried to rip off a couple of dudes with $5K worth of
coins...even though had they made "reasonable" offers, they stood to make
between $500 and $1000...
If this were remotely possible, I'd be ashamed to be a coin dealer, too,
primarily because it makes those 40 people among the dumbest people in the
room. If you read this thread at all, there is no one here denying there are
theives in the coin business. Ira's point was pretty obvious to those of who
have been following the thread. Other businesses have their scumbags,
too...and therefore a few bad apples can be expected to be found plying the
coin business, just like all other businesses.
The issue is not that there are crooks in the coins business...there are...or
that there are crooks in all businesses...there are. The issue is, that even
crooks are unlikely to ignore the oportunity to earn a day's wages by doing a
legitmate deal...and the ridiculousness of 40 out of 40 guys allowing a $500+
profit walk away after a lowball offer is obvious to any thinking person. The
flaw in the poster's story was exposed when he failed to follow thru by
providing reasonable proof, which he said he had but, for some reason, won't
divulge it here. If logic wasn't enough to demonstrate the foolishness of this
liar, the failure to provide the names of the dealers and/or the people who
would corroborate his story has pretty much shown him to be another in the long
line of trolls who visit here regularly. He simply dug himself in deeper when
he claimed to have admissions from the offenders and STILL he can't give us
their names.
My, my, either you're terminally naive, or a follow-up troll for the original
guy.
Which is it?
Robert
"DONDI3" <don...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030829222733...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Joe Schell
Dan....@HUHMindspring.com says...
--
Copper is as copper does.
Joe Schell
Joe Schell
flec...@yahoo.com says...
you expect a reply when you say, "I'll give you "x" for that sweatshirt."
(x being a fraction of the sticker price of said sweatshirt)
Alan & Erin Williams
>
> Gotta love another apologist for the coin dealers. LOL
>
dealers without being purchased.
40 antiquities dealers are presented a genuine rarity for which an
instant market exists and they *all* lowball the item?
Let me show you some prime real estate you can buy into as well.
Alan
'next to the cold fusion plant'
Nick Knight
>Gotta love another apologist for the coin dealers. LOL
Yes, he's very dependable that way. So pro-dealer, anyone who isn't is
somehow radically anti-dealer. Right. Radical only points in one direction
in this case. In fact, I'll pre-twit him, 'cause I'm already tired of his
poppycock.
I've read the thread with interest. I have my own battle scars with coin
dealers, but fortunately only a couple dealings out of many. Always when
buying, and my scars are mostly from dabbling in areas before "buying the
book". One from a local (read: neighborhood) dealer who sold me some
"investment grade" Morgans when I first re-started up. Two of them. Fairly
worthless now, and not worth the money at the time, either. Detailed here
long ago, I think. He's still in business today, too. But he hasn't seen
any more of my money since, and a fair first deal would have paid off well
for him over the years!
Anyway. I do believe the original story was a little too, er, dark-sided?
I don't buy the "dealers knew it was a game" suggestion, but I also am not
so sure about the 40/40 lowballs. I've seen lowballs before ... in fact,
lowballs are a good starting point in any negotiating. I'm wondering if a
serious desire to sell might have resulted in some dickering that would have
netted better final offers.
It seems it's the way of business to buy low and sell high. In simple
terms, it seems logical to strive to buy as low as possible, and sell as
high as possible. Who wouldn't snatch a $5 item at a garage sale, even if
(especially if?) they knew it was worth $50? $100? $500? At what point
does it become unethical to purchase it for $5? OTOH, an elderly person
walks into a store and wants to sell that item for $5. Hmmmm. The
difference is there, I think. Yes? So, what if it's a gentlemen in his
30's and in a suit? He's ready to accept $5; maybe he even suggests this as
a good price.
What if a coin dealer ends up buying a $5 coin, thinking he could turn it
around for $10, and later find out he missed something and it was worth much
more? Does he feel guilty? Should he? If I discovered one of my purchases
was worth much more than I paid, I'd be ecstatic!
I guess I see the line as being blurry; not very well defined at all.
Playing games with margins is part of the business. Knowing your stuff is a
good idea. Knowing how to dicker is a good idea. Knowing nothing about
either and still playing the game is bad. Still, I do not agree with the
one fellow who felt that this made you "fair game".
No answers, just thinking out-loud. I have yet-another temporary twit to
add now. No sense wasting time this weekend arguing the same-old, same-old,
with the same.
Nick
George D
And don't forget the gas station in Kingman Arizona who after replacing a bad radiator hose found a warn belt and assured me
that it needed immediate replacement or I would breakdown between there and Las Vegas. The distance 100 miles the month was
November temperatures in the 40s. I just borrowed a pare of cutters and removed the Air Conditioning Belt and assured him
that I would not suffer from not having air-conditioning.
I also never went back to that station again. I believe this is called "Highway 66ing someone.
--
George D
Phoenix, AZ
AAA, AARP, ANA, NRA, RCC ?+1, PIA, PIAAZ, GATF 85006-3032-18-4
The reward for a good deed is to have done it.
Please use this address to mail me. Or remove the arizona in the link.
Remember there is no Arizona.
geo...@att.net
ALL emails incoming and outgoing are run thru Norton and AVG anti virus.
DONDI3
<will...@mindspring.com> writes:
>40 antiquities dealers are presented a genuine rarity for which an
>instant market exists and they *all* lowball the item?
Happens everyday...in the fertile imaginations of bored trolls everywhere...
DONDI3
<joe...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Alan
>> 'part of a larger secret with ritual greetings'
>>
>BFD
Another bit of humor goes whizzing by...
dondi3
(whassat?)
DONDI3
<bhnc...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>>Gotta love another apologist for the coin dealers. LOL
>
>Yes, he's very dependable that way.
I'm shocked that Nick's limited comprehension skills didn't lead him to believe
I was apologizing for being a coin dealer...heh.
> So pro-dealer, anyone who isn't is somehow radically anti-dealer.
I suppose in Nick's mind this thought made sense when he wrote it. Too bad he
didn't check the thing before he hit "send" to avoid yet another silly nonsense
fractured statement
Right. Radical only points in one direction
>in this case. In fact, I'll pre-twit him, 'cause I'm already tired of his
>poppycock.
(Sigh) Twitted (again) by the world's most prolific twitter. I'm devastated.
I'd be more devastated if I didn't already think I was permanently twitted by
him several times already.
>I've read the thread with interest. I have my own battle scars with coin
>dealers, but fortunately only a couple dealings out of many. Always when
>buying, and my scars are mostly from dabbling in areas before "buying the
>book". One from a local (read: neighborhood) dealer who sold me some
>"investment grade" Morgans when I first re-started up. Two of them. Fairly
>worthless now, and not worth the money at the time, either. Detailed here
>long ago, I think. He's still in business today, too. But he hasn't seen
>any more of my money since, and a fair first deal would have paid off well
>for him over the years!
I'd guess he was probably bored with Nick's pontificating and just probably
doesn't miss the few $$ it cost him to get out of dealing with him lo! these
many years. I'm thinking he's a very asute individual and realized what
benefits a loball offer would return him over time. A very wise man, indeed.
Proud to have him in the fraternity!
>Anyway. I do believe the original story was a little too, er, dark-sided?
Wow! What discernment! I'm impressed. Ya jus' never know when reason burrows
it's way into the monkey's head.
(Blithering, blather deleted)
>No answers, just thinking out-loud. I have yet-another temporary twit to
>add now. No sense wasting time this weekend arguing the same-old, same-old,
>with the same.
>
>Nick
Damn! Just a "temporary" again. I was so hoping...well, maybe next time...
I'll admit tho'...the guy looks cute with his head in the sand and his brain in
the air...;-)
dondi3
(Once a Knight's enuf)
TomDeLorey
Iola to move to Colorado Springs, he took his car to a nationally-known chain
of tire stores to get his car ready for the trip. Among other things, he had
new shock absorbers installed, as he was hauling a trailer.
.
After arriving in C-Springs, he took his car to a local branch of the same
chain to have his carburetor adjusted for the altitude (yes, you used to have
to do that). When the car was up on the rack, the mechanic came and got him
from the waiting area, showed him the car, and said you need new shock
absorbers. Ed told him to go ahead and put them on.
.
When the car was done and they handed him the bill, he said wait a minute,
opened up the glove compartment and handed the mechanic the two-week-old
receipt and said "They're still under warranty." The mechanic got mad and said
"Why didn't you tell me they were brand new???" and Ed said "You told me they
needed to be replaced. Were you lying?"
.
By the way, he never stepped foot in there again.
.
Tom DeLorey
.
>Subject: Re: Sick of Dealers and Coins
>From: George D geodrum...@worldnet.att.net
<snip>
>And don't forget the gas station in Kingman Arizona who after replacing a bad
>radiator hose found a warn belt and assured me
>that it needed immediate replacement or I would breakdown between there and
>Las Vegas. The distance 100 miles the month was
>November temperatures in the 40s. I just borrowed a pare of cutters and
>removed the Air Conditioning Belt and assured him
>that I would not suffer from not having air-conditioning.
>
>I also never went back to that station again. I believe this is called
>"Highway 66ing someone.
>--
>George D
>Phoenix, AZ
>
TomDeLorey
.
"Standard Oil" What they use to keep the grading standards slippery!
JSTONE9352
>Neither can you ask them "how much will you come down in price?", nor can
>you expect a reply when you say, "I'll give you "x" for that sweatshirt."
>(x being a fraction of the sticker price of said sweatshirt)
Unrelated to retail stores but I heard that some smaller hotels that can't get
on
the internet discount listings are putting
up signs "make an offer on a room" in
order to stay in business. So far the
results have been mixed as many people aren't used to getting a hotel
room that way.
George D
AAA, AARP, ANA, NRA, RCC ?+1, PIA, PIAAZ, GATF 85006-3032-18-4
WinWinscenario
Dondi-
I agree with you.
Besides the issue of outright fraud--and I hope coin dealers are higher in
integrity than car repair shops in that regard--there is also the fact that
sometimes coin dealers just make egregious mistakes. The inability to properly
evaluate coins may explain some of the lowball offers. The latest glaring
example is Stacks telling the Walton family that their 1913 Lib 5c was a fake
(in 1963).
This story had a happy ending. Stacks didn't try to buy the thing "on the
cheap" (as far as we know); the Walton family kept it (threw it in a closet
somewhere), and, forty years later, it probably turned out to be a far better
investment than stocks or CDs.
Regards,
Tom
Coinsrus
>but a small business person is thought to be
>untrustworthy. Weird and makes no sense. Treat people the way you want
>to be treated.
==============================
doris,
ain't dat the truth mam.
just da facts mam & a lil bob ba loo...<G>
mark
Adrian P Baxter
> Phil Barnhart wrote:
> << This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law
> school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented
> that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I
> had been an avid collector. I told him the truth.
> "I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold
> almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on
> the psyche"
> convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove
> to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention
> floor than in any court. The bet was on.
> two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from
> the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our
> story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home
> and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55
> (value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib
> graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100).
> occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed
> to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the
> New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing
> lib. What did the others do?
> Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had
> similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers
> over that area of the case while we chatted.
> looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
> these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
> criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
> And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
> entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
> certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.
> the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them -
> this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were
> actually worth. The final price:
> 1916 Standing Lib: $5300
> 1892-O Half Eagle: $1600
> actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up;
> in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I
> could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin
> against the grade when he sells it . . .
> >>
> I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe.
> The 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter was in incredible demand at the Balto ANA,
> and at large shows, the dealer knows you'll shop it around and generally will
> offer you strong dollars for a desirable coin.
> In a slab by one of the two top grading companies, you'll generally receive
> considerably more $$ than trying to sell such coins raw as anyone in the
> business knows and anti-slabbers refuse to recognize. Many dealers are
> uncertain as to what final grade a slabbing company will put on a raw coin and
> will protect themselves by offering on the low side of wholesale value,
> estimating worst possible case from the grading companies.
> As far as the gold coin, many deceptive counterfeits abound, and even if the
> coin is genuine, it may have been lightly cleaned and this occurence may not be
> clearly noticable on the bourse floor.
> Even if a small portion of your scenario is true, I believe we have all learned
> that with quality coins it PAYS to get them certified. A far as your opinion
> that the so-called AU standing Lib was an AU and not an unc, and then selling
> at less than the going price for an AU in a reputable PCGS or NGC holder
> stretches the limits of credulity. 2 months ago I sold an NGC graded 1916 AU-53
> Standing Lib to dealer JH Cline for $7100 and he sold it fo $7800. It did NOT
> have a full Head and was not so designated.
> End of story.
>
> Ira Stein
Yes, coin dealers appear to be worse than those of cars.