Greenland to introduce own coins notes in 2008
Demiurge
http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2496466
Any Swiss, Austrian, Luxemburger, Liechtensteiner or Danish person able to
confirm this?
Demiurge.
Christian Feldhaus
While I am not from any of those countries, it is indeed true that
Greenland plans to introduce its own notes. Not sure about coins though.
http://knr.gl/nyheder/nyhedsarkiv/nyhed_fra_arkivet/?tx_ttnews[pS]=11491
27200&tx_ttnews[pL]=2591999&tx_ttnews[arc]=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=13512&tx
_ttnews[backPid]=184&cHash=862c1d8c8d
(or)
http://tinylink.com/?e3Z8b20dn2
The basic decision was made about three months ago (follow the "Læs
også" links for more info). This new knr.gl article merely says that
there won't be a fee for changing Danish krone notes into the new
currency.
Christian
Demiurge
> it is indeed true that
> Greenland plans to introduce its own notes. Not sure about coins though.
I put the Teutonic text from the "Standard" newspaper link thru a
translation hound, and the word "coins" did appear. The next question, which
the article didn't address, is whether the currency would also be kroner or
a new currency altogether. Presumably they are preparing for a time when
the Danes join the Euro. They of course may never do that, but it's best to
have a Plan B.
Demiurge.
Christian Feldhaus
> The next question, which the article didn't address, is whether the
> currency would also be kroner or a new currency altogether. Presumably
> they are preparing for a time when the Danes join the Euro.
Since Denmark has no such plans, that step would not be necessary. Nah,
Greenland will issue krone notes - pretty much like the Faroes (Føroyar)
which already have their own notes, at parity with the DKK. The German
article does indeed not address that, but the Danish ones (see my
previous reply) do.
And as I wrote, I believe that Greenland does not plan to introduce its
own coins. Yes, I know, the "Die Presse" article says otherwise ... but
the Danish articles that I have seen so far all refer to (penge)sedler
only, ie. notes.
In case anybody reads rcpm but not rcc, I crosspost this reply. :-)
Christian
Demiurge
however.
Demiurge.
"Christian Feldhaus" <m...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:1hi2kit.1s5fw5vtfjk0N%m...@privacy.net.invalid...
Dik T. Winter
> > While I am not from any of those countries
>
> Yet you are obviously some variety of Teuton.
You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
> > it is indeed true that
> > Greenland plans to introduce its own notes. Not sure about coins though.
>
> I put the Teutonic text from the "Standard" newspaper link thru a
> translation hound, and the word "coins" did appear.
Yes, it does show up in that article. But the Danish link you also quoted
talks about notes only.
> The next question, which
> the article didn't address, is whether the currency would also be kroner or
> a new currency altogether.
The Danish article makes clear that the new banknotes would be in the same
denomination as the Danish banknotes, but using other motives.
I have my doubts about the Austrian article as it states that Greenland and
the Faroer intend to join EFTA. EFTA currently consists of Iceland, Norway,
Switzerland and Liechtenstein (it has been much larger, but most countries
of EFTA have in the course of time elected to leave EFTA and join the EU).
Of course the neighbourhood of Norway and Iceland may play a role. I
wonder what Switzerland and (by consequence) Liechtenstein will say to that.
> Presumably they are preparing for a time when
> the Danes join the Euro. They of course may never do that, but it's best to
> have a Plan B.
Ah, you are from the UK. Do you dislike the Euro as much as that?
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
Christian Feldhaus
> > Yet you are obviously some variety of Teuton.
>
> You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
Depends. In German(y) the term "Teutonengrill", for example, is fairly
popular as an ironic reference to (mostly Mediterranean) beaches in
summer. Ah well, these days we have our Teutonengrill right at home <g>.
> Yes, it does show up in that article. But the Danish link you also quoted
> talks about notes only.
Have a look at the previous knr.gl articles that I mentioned. At the end
of the "Grønlandske pengesedler på vej" text from April (07.04.2006
10:45), there is the sentence "Mønterne vil fortsat være de samme." My
Danish is quite fragmentary, but I think that means Greenland will not
have its own coins, "only" notes.
Another article "Natur og mytologi skal på pengesedler" (25.05.2006
15:24) talks about possible designs for the Greenland notes. Again,
coins are not mentioned. So it is pretty safe to assume that Greenland
will use its own (krone) notes but, like the Faroes, continue to use
Danish coins.
As for EFTA, only the Faroe Islands currently plan to join (not
Greenland). By Danish law it is possible that they join international
organizations which Denmark is not a member of. The Faroes are not part
of the EU (neither is Greenland), and as you mentioned, the two Nordic
neighbors of the Faroes - Iceland and Norway - are EFTA members too ...
Currently Iceland seems to support the idea of the Faroes joining, the
Norwegian government says it's basically OK but has a few issues with
the plan. Switzerland and Liechtenstein have given the suggestion a
lukewarm reception so far.
Christian
Christian Feldhaus
> > Yet you are obviously some variety of Teuton.
>
> You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
Depends. In German(y) the term "Teutonengrill", for example, is fairly
popular as an ironic reference to Germans populating Mediterranean
beaches in summer. Ah well, these days we have our Teutonengrill right
at home <g>.
> Yes, it does show up in that article. But the Danish link you also quoted
> talks about notes only.
Have a look at the previous knr.gl articles that I mentioned. At the end
Demiurge
> You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
Was meant to be humorous - I'm actually quite a Teutophile for a Brit.
What's wrong with using a nice old-fashioned word? Reclaim it, I say.
> Ah, you are from the UK. Do you dislike the Euro as much as that?
I dislike it only for the UK. I'm not anti-European. Small is beautiful -
own currency gives finer control of own economy. If others want to use it,
fine, but I think it is slowing European growth, which is not good for the
UK.
A monoculture of currencies is not good. What if every economy went into
recession at the same time? A single currency would make this more likely.
However, I do support the right of Europeans to choose the euro - only most
weren't given a democratic choice.
Coin variety has reduced too. Just look at the Irish designs pre- and
post-Euro. I miss that variety of style. Only Austria has really improved
its pre-Euro hotchpotch of a set with its smart new designs.
Demiurge.
Dik T. Winter
...
> A monoculture of currencies is not good. What if every economy went into
> recession at the same time? A single currency would make this more likely.
Perhaps. However, your perspective changes when you can not travel over
250 km in any direction without having to change your money.
Christian Feldhaus
> However, I do support the right of Europeans to choose the euro - only most
> weren't given a democratic choice.
Guess that depends on what one calls democratic. Most European countries
are parliamentary democracies, which means that pretty much every
decision is made by a (regional, national, etc.) parliament.
There is nothing wrong with having referendums, of course. But saying
that the vote of a democratically elected parliament is not a democratic
decision goes too far in my opinion. As far as I know, the British have
not had a plebiscitary vote either about whether they want to stay in
the EU or leave it.
As for the euro (ah well, this does not have anything to do with
Greenland any more anyway <g>), pretty much everybody in the EU can live
with the fact that some member states are in the currency union while
others are not. Lately the EU has even become a little picky about who
should be in and who should not ...
> Coin variety has reduced too. Just look at the Irish designs pre- and
> post-Euro.
Sure they look a little dull. But it was the Irish's decision to put the
harp and nothing else on the national side. The pieces from some other
euro countries, notably Greece and Italy, do look more attractive.
Christian
Dik T. Winter
> Demiurge <m...@me.com> wrote:
...
> > Coin variety has reduced too. Just look at the Irish designs pre- and
> > post-Euro.
>
> Sure they look a little dull. But it was the Irish's decision to put the
> harp and nothing else on the national side.
I think Demiurge argues that the pre-euro designs in Ireland were better.
That is right, on of one the sides.
Dave Hinz
> In article <44ad...@212.67.96.135> "Demiurge" <m...@me.com> writes:
> > > While I am not from any of those countries
> >
> > Yet you are obviously some variety of Teuton.
>
> You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
Hm, I never use the term but why is it derogatory? email is fine.
Would "Germanic" be acceptable?
Christian Feldhaus
> > > Coin variety has reduced too. Just look at the Irish designs pre- and
> > > post-Euro.
> >
> > Sure they look a little dull. But it was the Irish's decision to put the
> > harp and nothing else on the national side.
>
> I think Demiurge argues that the pre-euro designs in Ireland were better.
> That is right, on of one the sides.
Yes, and I agree - I have quite a few Irish pre-euro coins. :-) What I
meant was, they knew what the common sides would look like, but instead
of putting birds, fish, etc. on the national sides (maybe combined with
a small harp in case the latter is required by law), they chose a fairly
monotonous series ...
You may have seen Fabrizio Annovi's fantasy image of a Dutch €2
Rembrandt commem which even made it to the Dutch mint's site:
http://nl.knm.nl/domains/knm/content/Rembrandt_ID_2_Euro.jpg
Now while this is something that will not be minted, it shows (quite
nicely IMO) how one could combine the effigy of a queen and a portrait
of the person to be honored. Something like that - say, a big fish and a
small harp - should have been doable with the Irish euro coins too.
Christian
Demiurge
> 250 km in any direction without having to change your money.
If I don't have a job, then I won't have the money to change, anyway.
Until 1992, when the UK was in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, the
higher interest rates needed for this caused unemployment to rise higher
than it need have done - though admittedly we would have had a recession
anyway, only not so bad.
Once we were forced out of the ERM, interest rates came down and the economy
improved.
So, it's this experience that makes me wary of going into the Euro.
Originally I thought the UK joining the ERM was a good idea, but reality
changed my opinion. Own currency, own interest rate - good! Of course you
have disadvantages, as you mentioned about changing money (and the
commission!), but on the whole I enjoy seeing more of my countrymen in a
job.
Demiurge.
Demiurge
> that the vote of a democratically elected parliament is not a democratic
> decision goes too far in my opinion.
not.
The UK now has a large population of disaffected Muslims, when probably at
any one time you'd find about two thirds of Brits (whenever, of whatever
background) wary of mass immigration. The politicians have always been more
liberal on this matter, but as the Netherlands too is finding out, such
policies have their dangers.
> As far as I know, the British have
> not had a plebiscitary vote either about whether they want to stay in
> the EU or leave it.
I think Harold Wilson allowed us a vote on it in 1975, when I was a
schoolboy, but we voted to stay in.
Fair enough.
> As for the euro (ah well, this does not have anything to do with
> Greenland any more anyway <g>), pretty much everybody in the EU can live
> with the fact that some member states are in the currency union while
> others are not. Lately the EU has even become a little picky about who
> should be in and who should not ...
Quite amusing...
> > Coin variety has reduced too. Just look at the Irish designs pre- and
> > post-Euro.
>
> Sure they look a little dull. But it was the Irish's decision to put the
> harp and nothing else on the national side. The pieces from some other
> euro countries, notably Greece and Italy, do look more attractive.
I think the Greek and Italian pieces were also very attractive pre-Euro.
Now the coins have a common format, and oh, always those boring stars.
So we have still lost a lot of variety - I used to enjoy seeing the
different shapes, sizes and metals of the pre-Euor coins. The new trend is
to have only 3 different designs across the series - grouped across coin
formats: one design for 1, 2, 5 cents; another for 10, 20, 50; a third for 1
and 2 Euro. Spain and Germany follow that format - looks like a lot of new
members will too, e.g. Malta - so instead of 8 reverse designs, we get only
3.
A loss of variety again.
Demiurge.
Demiurge
> >
> > You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
>
> Hm, I never use the term but why is it derogatory? email is fine.
> Would "Germanic" be acceptable?
There's nothing wrong with Anglo-Saxon, so what's wrong with Teuton (another
"-on" word)?
Nobody seems to know. Maybe we Brits misused it during the boring old
"war" - but that war is so first millennium, and it's about time we
rehabilitated "Teuton", "Teutonic", etc. After all, the word "Deutsch" seems
to have developed from that root.
Demiurge.
Dave Hinz
>> > > Yet you are obviously some variety of Teuton.
>> >
>> > You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
>>
>> Hm, I never use the term but why is it derogatory? email is fine.
>> Would "Germanic" be acceptable?
>
> There's nothing wrong with Anglo-Saxon, so what's wrong with Teuton (another
> "-on" word)?
That's what I was thinking but perhaps there's some emotionally charged
reason for taking offense it it specifically, that I don't know of.
> Nobody seems to know. Maybe we Brits misused it during the boring old
> "war" - but that war is so first millennium, and it's about time we
> rehabilitated "Teuton", "Teutonic", etc. After all, the word "Deutsch" seems
> to have developed from that root.
How so, linguistically? I'm not seeing it.
Demiurge
> > to have developed from that root.
>
> How so, linguistically? I'm not seeing it.
"Teut" becoming "Deut". Pronounced "toyt", "doyt" in German.
Words mutate over time. "T"s typically turn into "D"s and vice versa.
Demiurge.
Dave Hinz
Danks, Temiurge!
Christian Feldhaus
> I think the Greek and Italian pieces were also very attractive pre-Euro.
> Now the coins have a common format, and oh, always those boring stars.
Those are the twelve stars of the European flag. It sure makes sense to
have them on our coins - but it is debatable whether there actually have
to be twelve stars on the common side, and the same twelve on the
country specific side. Well, they sure beat having the the very same
royal effigy on each and every coin, since the ring of stars on the
national sides is just a "frame" which can be filled with the main
elements of the design.
> The new trend is to have only 3 different designs across the series -
> grouped across coin formats: one design for 1, 2, 5 cents; another for 10,
> 20, 50; a third for 1 and 2 Euro. Spain and Germany follow that format -
> looks like a lot of new members will too, e.g. Malta - so instead of 8
> reverse designs, we get only 3.
Again, it was and is up to each euro country to decide what they put on
the country specific sides. Some countries use eight different designs
for the eight denominations, some use three for the three coin "types",
others just use one design for all denominations, others are somewhere
in between.
As a coin collector I prefer eight of course. But maybe that is too much
effort for some countries, don't know. By the way, the country that
joins the currency union next (Slovenia, on 1 January) has eight
different designs. :-)
Christian
Christian Feldhaus
> it's about time we rehabilitated "Teuton", "Teutonic", etc. After all, the
> word "Deutsch" seems to have developed from that root.
Would not be a good idea in my opinion. While I don't think the term
"Teutonic" is offensive per se, it refers to one specific tribe or
people, namely the Teutons. Now the word "deutsch" comes from
"theodisce" which originally referred to the language of the people
(Germanic "theoda" = people) as opposed to Latin.
Yes, I know, some people in the past and even the nazis in the 20c
wanted to link the Teutons to the Germans as a whole. But that is not a
reason to repeat their mistakes. ;-)
Christian
Dik T. Winter
> Dik T. Winter <Dik.W...@cwi.nl> wrote:
> > I think Demiurge argues that the pre-euro designs in Ireland were better.
> > That is right, on of one the sides.
>
> Yes, and I agree - I have quite a few Irish pre-euro coins. :-) What I
> meant was, they knew what the common sides would look like, but instead
> of putting birds, fish, etc. on the national sides (maybe combined with
> a small harp in case the latter is required by law), they chose a fairly
> monotonous series ...
Indeed. I do not know whether the law requires the harp, but a combination
would not be unprecedented. Look at the postage stamps for the UK. It is
required that the effigy of the queen is on it, but they nevertheless
manage to put out pretty nice stamps.
> You may have seen Fabrizio Annovi's fantasy image of a Dutch ¤2
> Rembrandt commem which even made it to the Dutch mint's site:
> http://nl.knm.nl/domains/knm/content/Rembrandt_ID_2_Euro.jpg
>
> Now while this is something that will not be minted, it shows (quite
> nicely IMO) how one could combine the effigy of a queen and a portrait
> of the person to be honored.
I do not see immediately the effigy of the queen, only in background. But
I think that if somebody had done an effigy of the queen in Rembrandt style
(perhaps paired off with Rembrandt himself), she would have liked it very
much, and it would have satisfied the requirements of the law. Beatrix
really likes portraits done by either modern or old-fashioned artists, look
at how she is pictured on some Dutch stamps and on the Dutch gulden coins
(and look also at some of the portraits, with her agreement, by Andy Warhol,
Marte Röling, Herman Brood and a host of others). She has had a big say in
all of them. It is only the conservative faction of government that does
not like such representations. There was severe opposition agains her
effigy on the gulden coins. But she steadfastly refused to change it.
Dik T. Winter
> > 250 km in any direction without having to change your money.
>
> If I don't have a job, then I won't have the money to change, anyway.
Of course not. But I have a job and the number of times I have had to
change money is so much that I am loth to even tell how much that has
cost me. In addition of course that you go to a different country and
there is *no* place in the neighbourhood to change money. I remember
going by train to Belgium, and I had no Belgian money until I a had
wandered around quite a bit before I found a place where I could change
money. When in a country like the Netherlands or Belgium, you will
pretty soon find that you need to change money.
> Until 1992, when the UK was in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, the
> higher interest rates needed for this caused unemployment to rise higher
> than it need have done - though admittedly we would have had a recession
> anyway, only not so bad.
Yup, that is economics. I do not know the deep end of economics, it is
pretty unclear. But, as far as I understand, increasing interest rates
increases emplyment, and at the same time increases inflation. In the
time I have seen the UK pound come down from NLG 10.80 to NLG 4.32. Each
time I went there the exchange rate was lower. There must have been
something amiss, because from about 1400 to 1964 the exchange rate between
the gulden (or what was the gulden) and UK currency had been about the same.
> Once we were forced out of the ERM, interest rates came down and the economy
> improved.
And how about inflation?
> So, it's this experience that makes me wary of going into the Euro.
> Originally I thought the UK joining the ERM was a good idea, but reality
> changed my opinion. Own currency, own interest rate - good! Of course you
> have disadvantages, as you mentioned about changing money (and the
> commission!), but on the whole I enjoy seeing more of my countrymen in a
> job.
But improvement of the economy does not automatically lead to more jobs.
Dik T. Winter
> On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 20:07:37 +0100, Demiurge <m...@me.com> wrote:
> >> > > Yet you are obviously some variety of Teuton.
> >> >
> >> > You know that that is a quite derogatory remark?
> >>
> >> Hm, I never use the term but why is it derogatory? email is fine.
> >> Would "Germanic" be acceptable?
> >
> > There's nothing wrong with Anglo-Saxon, so what's wrong with Teuton
> > (another "-on" word)?
>
> That's what I was thinking but perhaps there's some emotionally charged
> reason for taking offense it it specifically, that I don't know of.
It has its basis in WWI and found further expansion in WWII. And currently
it is also in Germany used as slightly derogatory. The mean target was some
particular kind of Germans, and in the course of time, it has found that
meaning also in other languages, and even (in a way) in German.
Dik T. Winter
> Demiurge <m...@me.com> wrote:
>
> > I think the Greek and Italian pieces were also very attractive pre-Euro.
> > Now the coins have a common format, and oh, always those boring stars.
>
> Those are the twelve stars of the European flag. It sure makes sense to
> have them on our coins - but it is debatable whether there actually have
> to be twelve stars on the common side, and the same twelve on the
> country specific side.
I doubt that they make sense at all. Ask around why the number of stars is
twelve, and I think nearly nobody knows the reason. Also the common side
is, of course, pretty boring. A picture of Europe, and on some even a
picture of the countries in the EU (so it has to be changed).
But most countries have pretty boring circulating coins. Consider the UK,
where one sides is always the same, until the queen needs a new effigy,
and where the other side only changes with the pound coins.
Christian Feldhaus
> I doubt that they make sense at all. Ask around why the number of stars is
> twelve, and I think nearly nobody knows the reason.
Quite possibly so. :-) But most people will know that those twelve
stars on the coins, and even more so on the notes, somehow represent
Europe. On the euro notes one can actually see the blue flag with the
circle of golden stars - well, that would not work with coins.
The stars on the coins are used like a name; you cannot put "European
Union" on them since you would end up with a dozen or so language
versions (the EU as a whole has 20/21 now), and also some non-euro
member states would argue that the term is misleading. So just using the
stars from the flag is in my opinion a nice solution.
> Also the common side is, of course, pretty boring. A picture of Europe,
> and on some even a picture of the countries in the EU (so it has to be
> changed).
You have a problem with state (errm, EU) outlines? <g>
Currently the "alternative" designs for the euro coins, from the 1995
design competition, can be seen in an exhibition in Vienna. Here is a
flyer with some pictures:
http://www.oenb.at/de/img/gepraegt_fuer_europa__tcm14-40342.pdf
Have not seen the exhibition yet, and I don't know if there is a
complete catalog, but there were some interesting alternatives indeed.
Ah well, maybe we'll get more attractive designs of the common sides in
a couple of years.
But as you mentioned, the first redesign will simply address the issue
that the current "maps" show the old EU-15. The new designs with the
geographical map of Europe were agreed upon in 2005, but so far none of
the euro countries has started using them. Finland and Slovenia will be
the first ones, next year ...
Christian
note.boy
"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.W...@cwi.nl> wrote in message
news:J22Co...@cwi.nl...
> In article <1hi442d.f6grgz1jqllliN%m...@privacy.net.invalid> cra...@gmx.eu
> writes:
> > Dik T. Winter <Dik.W...@cwi.nl> wrote:
> ...
> > > I think Demiurge argues that the pre-euro designs in Ireland were
> > > better.
> > > That is right, on of one the sides.
> >
> > Yes, and I agree - I have quite a few Irish pre-euro coins. :-) What I
> > meant was, they knew what the common sides would look like, but instead
> > of putting birds, fish, etc. on the national sides (maybe combined with
> > a small harp in case the latter is required by law), they chose a fairly
> > monotonous series ...
>
> Indeed. I do not know whether the law requires the harp, but a
> combination
> would not be unprecedented. Look at the postage stamps for the UK. It is
> required that the effigy of the queen is on it, but they nevertheless
> manage to put out pretty nice stamps.
UK stamps are the only stamps that do not bear the name of the issuing
country, an outline of the monarch appears. This is because the UK was
first to introduce postage stamps so the name of the country was not needed.
Billy
Jeff R.
"note.boy" <note...@naespamntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MgLrg.4714$FR....@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> UK stamps are the only stamps that do not bear the name of the issuing
> country, an outline of the monarch appears. This is because the UK was
> first to introduce postage stamps so the name of the country was not
> needed. Billy
Uh huh.
That would explain the coinage too, yes?
--
Jeff R.
Demiurge
>
> Of course not. But I have a job and the number of times I have had to
> change money is so much that I am loth to even tell how much that has
> cost me. In addition of course that you go to a different country and
> there is *no* place in the neighbourhood to change money.
own interest raets to suit ourselves.
I do actually think it sensible for small regions such as Benelux to have a
common currency.
But for large states such as the UK, France, Germany, I think they'd be
better off with their own currency to fine-tune their economy. If we could
all maximise our economies inthis way, we'd be doing one another a favour.
Various UK AND European economists have pointed out that the Euro interest
rate has been too high for Germany's economy, for instance. Germany should
be the motor of Europe. My goodness, they actually know how to run trains,
hotels and hospitals properly in Germany (unlike here in the UK). Just think
of all that positive energy waiting to be unleashed.
> > Until 1992, when the UK was in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism,
the
> > higher interest rates needed for this caused unemployment to rise
higher
> > than it need have done - though admittedly we would have had a
recession
> > anyway, only not so bad.
>
> Yup, that is economics. I do not know the deep end of economics, it is
> pretty unclear. But, as far as I understand, increasing interest rates
> increases emplyment, and at the same time increases inflation. In the
> time I have seen the UK pound come down from NLG 10.80 to NLG 4.32. Each
> time I went there the exchange rate was lower. There must have been
> something amiss, because from about 1400 to 1964 the exchange rate between
> the gulden (or what was the gulden) and UK currency had been about the
same.
Yes, we had a rotten economy from the 1960s until Mrs Thatcher came along to
rescue us.
Inflation reached 32.5 percent in the summer of 1975. Of course all this
devalued the pound.
> > Once we were forced out of the ERM, interest rates came down and the
economy
> > improved.
>
> And how about inflation?
That stayed low and steady - but lower inflation became a relatively
worldwide phenomenon anyway.
> > So, it's this experience that makes me wary of going into the Euro.
> > Originally I thought the UK joining the ERM was a good idea, but
reality
> > changed my opinion. Own currency, own interest rate - good! Of course
you
> > have disadvantages, as you mentioned about changing money (and the
> > commission!), but on the whole I enjoy seeing more of my countrymen in
a
> > job.
>
> But improvement of the economy does not automatically lead to more jobs.
Yes, you need a balance between productivity and people in employment - it's
down to the labour laws and culture to an extent. But so far it has worked
for the UK. Things have been so good for so long, there has to be a crash
soon, though!
Demiurge.
Demiurge
pre-Euro.
> > > Now the coins have a common format, and oh, always those boring
stars.
> >
>
> where one sides is always the same, until the queen needs a new effigy,
> and where the other side only changes with the pound coins.
standard unchanging obverse design - in our case a portrait of the Queen,
which is actually changed every few years. My real argument was that when
EVERY country using the Euro has to have a more or less standard obverse
(the stars), then that reduces variety and so is even MORE boring. Again, I
maintain that the introduction of the Euro has REDUCED variety in coin
format and design, which I as a collector regret.
Here's a compromise: Tony Blair agrees to introduce the Euro to the UK, in
exchange for which the EU agrees to join the Commonwealth - of which the
Queen is head. The Queen then becomes Empress of the European Union, to show
that she is above all other Queens, and her portrait becomes compulsory on
the obverse of all Euros - but a very small portrait of any local monarch is
allowed to appear at the right-hand side of the Empress's neck. I'm sure
that will please everyone :-)
Demiurge.
Christian Feldhaus
> My goodness, they actually know how to run trains,
> hotels and hospitals properly in Germany
*cough*
Well, hotels maybe. ;-)
Christian
Christian Feldhaus
> My real argument was that when EVERY country using the Euro has to have a
> more or less standard obverse (the stars), then that reduces variety and
> so is even MORE boring.
But _none_ of the euro countries uses the stars as the sole or key
feature of the obverse design.
The circle of stars on the coins, taken from the European Flag, is just
that - a "ring" that goes around the actual design of the country
specific side. (Well, in some cases the stars are grouped differently.)
The point is, whatever is inside the circle is determined by the issuing
member state, so the primary design element varies widely from country
to country.
Now the other side of the euro and cent coins, with the map, is about
exciting or boring as coins that all have the same head of state, or the
same coat of arms, on one side ...
> Here's a compromise:
Hehe, good one. Can that imperial scenario be avoided by the UK keeping
the pound and the euro countries keeping the euro? :-) If not, we would
have to introduce a couple more official languages to the Commonwealth.
About 20 or so would do ...
Christian
Dik T. Winter
> > > > I think the Greek and Italian pieces were also very attractive
> pre-Euro.
> > > > Now the coins have a common format, and oh, always those boring
> stars.
> > >
> >
> > But most countries have pretty boring circulating coins. Consider the UK,
> > where one sides is always the same, until the queen needs a new effigy,
> > and where the other side only changes with the pound coins.
>
> Yes, the UK Queen designs are boring, but on most coin sets there is one
> standard unchanging obverse design - in our case a portrait of the Queen,
> which is actually changed every few years.
Two changes in 53 years (1985 and 1998)...
> My real argument was that when
> EVERY country using the Euro has to have a more or less standard obverse
> (the stars), then that reduces variety and so is even MORE boring. Again, I
> maintain that the introduction of the Euro has REDUCED variety in coin
> format and design, which I as a collector regret.
But my argument is that since the introduction of the euro I find a much
larger variety of coins here at home than before the introduction. And
more people are looking at them to determine where a coin comes from.
> Here's a compromise: Tony Blair agrees to introduce the Euro to the UK, in
> exchange for which the EU agrees to join the Commonwealth - of which the
> Queen is head. The Queen then becomes Empress of the European Union, to show
> that she is above all other Queens, and her portrait becomes compulsory on
> the obverse of all Euros - but a very small portrait of any local monarch is
> allowed to appear at the right-hand side of the Empress's neck. I'm sure
> that will please everyone :-)
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a boy from Hull in the bar of the
Regent Palace hotel in London, back before the UK had joined the EU. He
was seriously shocked to learn that Elizabeth would *not* become queen of
the EU. But as far as I know, she has never been Empress. George VI
was only Emperor until 1949.
Demiurge
a
> > more or less standard obverse (the stars), then that reduces variety and
> > so is even MORE boring.
>
> But _none_ of the euro countries uses the stars as the sole or key
> feature of the obverse design.
> Now the other side of the euro and cent coins, with the map, is about
> exciting or boring as coins that all have the same head of state, or the
> same coat of arms, on one side ...
I stand corrected - that's the side I meant.
> > Here's a compromise:
>
> Hehe, good one. Can that imperial scenario be avoided by the UK keeping
> the pound and the euro countries keeping the euro? :-) If not, we would
> have to introduce a couple more official languages to the Commonwealth.
> About 20 or so would do ...
Yes, Tower of Babel and all that. Wouldn't that be fun...
Demiurge.
Demiurge
portrait from 1968;
the Maklouf portrait from 1985; and since 1998 the Rank-Broadley portrait.
> > My real argument was that
when
> > EVERY country using the Euro has to have a more or less standard
obverse
> > (the stars), then that reduces variety and so is even MORE boring.
Again, I
> > maintain that the introduction of the Euro has REDUCED variety in coin
> > format and design, which I as a collector regret.
>
> But my argument is that since the introduction of the euro I find a much
> larger variety of coins here at home than before the introduction. And
> more people are looking at them to determine where a coin comes from.
Ah yes, nicer for you in the home situation. In the 1960s as a child, I
would still get young and old head Victoria pennies in my change, and other
all the Kings in between her and QEII - so that was more interesting than
nowadays.
> > Here's a compromise: Tony Blair agrees to introduce the Euro to the UK,
in
> > exchange for which the EU agrees to join the Commonwealth - of which
the
> > Queen is head. The Queen then becomes Empress of the European Union, to
show
> > that she is above all other Queens, and her portrait becomes compulsory
on
> > the obverse of all Euros - but a very small portrait of any local
monarch is
> > allowed to appear at the right-hand side of the Empress's neck. I'm
sure
> > that will please everyone :-)
>
> Reminds me of a conversation I had with a boy from Hull in the bar of the
> Regent Palace hotel in London, back before the UK had joined the EU. He
> was seriously shocked to learn that Elizabeth would *not* become queen of
> the EU.
Silly boy! But what were you doing talking to boys in bars anyway? :-)
> But as far as I know, she has never been Empress. George VI
> was only Emperor until 1949.
Correct, QEII has never been Empress. India became independent in 1947, so
from then on George VI was no longer Emperor.
Demiurge.
note.boy
"Jeff R." <conta...@this.ng> wrote in message
news:44af8e4d$0$21746$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
I don't think that the UK was first with coins. :-)
"Britt Ohm", of all the Britons, was dropped from UK coinage in 1954, this
was due to the Commonwealth shrinking in size. Of all the Britons covered
all Britons even if the were in India etc.
The name of the country appeared on the coins up to 1953 as an abbreviated
form of the Latin name. Billy
note.boy
"Demiurge" <m...@me.com> wrote in message news:44b0...@212.67.96.135...
She's not even Queen of the UK, as she is titled "Elizabeth II" she must be
Queen of England only as the previous Queen Elizabeth was Queen of England
only.
To be Queen of the UK her title would have to be Elizabeth I. Billy
Demiurge
so
> > from then on George VI was no longer Emperor.
> >
> > Demiurge.
> She's not even Queen of the UK, as she is titled "Elizabeth II" she must
be
> Queen of England only as the previous Queen Elizabeth was Queen of England
> only.
>
> To be Queen of the UK her title would have to be Elizabeth I. Billy
I know that. Where did I say she was Queen of the UK - or of Great Britain?
You weren't meant to take the Empress nonsense seriously - Mr Christian in
his Bounty didn't.
Given your obvious Scottishness, what would be your ideal political and
numismatic solution to Scotland's status? Presumably you'd like to see it
independent. If it were to become so, would you like to see it join the
Euro, or would you prefer it to re-establish its own ethnic currency? And
how would you like to see Scottishness best depicted on the coins? Remains
to be seen how they'll do it on the 2008 UK re-designs.
Demiurge.
note.boy
"Demiurge" <m...@me.com> wrote in message news:44b1...@212.67.96.135...
We should use the bawbee again. :-) Billy
Demiurge
We? WE?! How DARE you! I'm English, I'll have you know!
> >> She's not even Queen of the UK, as she is titled "Elizabeth II" she
must
> > be
> >> Queen of England only as the previous Queen Elizabeth was Queen of
> >> England
> >> only.
Anyway, I don't know why you're so upset about QEII. It's your James VI who
annexed England and Wales (by invitation, of course), and by all accounts it
was you Scots who really ran the Empire - and sent your people to colonise
the Emerald Isle and annoy the Irish. And it's us peace-loving English who
got the backwash from all of this.
Demiurge.
Christian Feldhaus
> Remains to be seen how they'll do it on the 2008 UK re-designs.
2008, is that some sort of definite date? Some time ago I read that the
Royal Mint invited people to submit new design suggestions ("Open
competition launched to find new designs for United Kingdom coins"), but
that was in summer 2005, I think.
Have not heard - or seen - anything about that since then. (Except for
those images from apathysketchpad.com that you posted <g>.) So, any
news? Inquiring minds ... :-)
Christian
Demiurge
of schoolchildren had won a prize in the design competition. Their entry had
reached the "top 30". Obviously then work is proceeding apace, if there is a
top 30. The next phase presumably will be to whittle down these designs
until they come up with the winners.
2008 is definitely the year that these new coins are slated for release, and
I for one am looking forward to them, as our current heraldic designs are so
boring and old-fashioned. The Times asked for ideas for designs from users,
and Stonehenge and Big Ben cropped up a few times. The Royal Mint asked for
EITHER new heraldic designs OR more modern images. Given the way our pound
and two pound coins are going, we will probably get modern, pictorial
designs rather than boring old heraldic ones.
Demiurge.
"Christian Feldhaus" <m...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:1hi8313.flr5bwk3tou8N%m...@privacy.net.invalid...
Dik T. Winter
> > Two changes in 53 years (1985 and 1998)...
>
> No, three - the pre-decimal Gillick portrait of QEII from 1953; the Machin
> portrait from 1968;
> the Maklouf portrait from 1985; and since 1998 the Rank-Broadley portrait.
Ah, yes, I did forget the change from pre-decimal to decimal.
> > But my argument is that since the introduction of the euro I find a much
> > larger variety of coins here at home than before the introduction. And
> > more people are looking at them to determine where a coin comes from.
>
> Ah yes, nicer for you in the home situation. In the 1960s as a child, I
> would still get young and old head Victoria pennies in my change, and other
> all the Kings in between her and QEII - so that was more interesting than
> nowadays.
Yes, for pennies (and half pennies if you were lucky) you could find them.
(And I found some.) But for anything larger you got in most cases only
George VI or Elizabeth II. For 3-pences the reason was obvious. For larger
coins I have received only very few pre George VI coins (although I did
receive them for all demonimations, and some of them I received in Ireland).
Alas, at that time I did not yet appreciate the distinction between 1953
coins and later, so I have missed one of the 1953 coins (filled in later in
my collection by purchase), neither did I appreciate the difference between
pre-1947 coins and post-1947 coins, but for some reason I haf them all. But
I did know the difference between the Scottish and English shillings and
found them nearly all. I was too late to find any farthings around.
At that time it was interesting, as in the Netherlands we had two kinds
of coins. Those from 1948 with Wilhelmina and the later ones with
Juliana. With decimalisation the situation in the UK became a bit boring,
although the introduction of new yearly pound coins was interesting.
What I find fascinating is the story about the 2 pound coin from 1997.
It was the only one with the Machin portrait, so it was rumoured that it
was a collectors item. Nevertheless I have found some in circulation.
> > Reminds me of a conversation I had with a boy from Hull in the bar of the
> > Regent Palace hotel in London, back before the UK had joined the EU. He
> > was seriously shocked to learn that Elizabeth would *not* become queen of
> > the EU.
>
> Silly boy! But what were you doing talking to boys in bars anyway? :-)
Well, suppose it is New Year's Eve, and everybody is singing Auld Lang Syne.
What would you do as an outsider, except start a conversation with somebody
local (yes, in London somebody from Hull is local enough for me)? I think
I destroyed his nice feelings on that evening (he just having struggled a
few years with decimal money).
> > But as far as I know, she has never been Empress. George VI
> > was only Emperor until 1949.
>
> Correct, QEII has never been Empress. India became independent in 1947, so
> from then on George VI was no longer Emperor.
So Georges coins from 1947 (perhaps) and 1948 tell a lie?
Peter Irwin
He was Ind Imp for much of 1947, and it isn't normal to
change coins mid year. (George VI was dead for most of 1952
but they kept on making coins with him on it until the
end of the year.) Canada chose to make 1947 coins with
a small maple leaf for the first half of 1948 until the
new dies without IND IMP were ready. There seems to have
been quite a bit of difficulty getting new dies ready on time
and the UK and other commonwealth countries appear to have
made the decision to mint 1948 coins with the old inscriptions.
AFAIK Canada was alone in not making coins with the old
inscriptions dated 1948 and the way they were able to do this
was to make 1947 maple leaf coins for much of 1948.
The business of preparing new dies must have been really
slow in 1947 and 1948. One possible reason for this is
that the preparation of master dies for the whole empire
and commonwealth was practically all centralised at the
time and the royal mint needed to prepare new master dies
for a huge number of different coins. This had been a big
problem in 1937 for the introduction of the George VI coins:
the master dies for Canada were actually prepared at the
Paris mint because the Royal Mint in London didn't have
the capacity to get all the new dies ready on time.
Peter.
--
pir...@ktb.net
Christian Feldhaus
> 2008 is definitely the year that these new coins are slated for release,
> and I for one am looking forward to them, as our current heraldic designs
> are so boring and old-fashioned. The Times asked for ideas for designs
> from users, and Stonehenge and Big Ben cropped up a few times.
Sounds good to me. While I like several of the current heraldic designs,
notably the 20p and regular 50p piece, some change would not hurt.
> The Royal Mint asked for EITHER new heraldic designs OR more modern
> images. Given the way our pound and two pound coins are going, we will
> probably get modern, pictorial designs rather than boring old heraldic
> ones.
Fine, but I hope they won't change the designs of the pence coins every
year. That is a nice idea for the Ł1 pieces for example, but not for all
denominations. Well, I am looking forward to the 2008 designs then. :-)
Christian
Demiurge
> notably the 20p and regular 50p piece, some change would not hurt.
I like the format of the 20p and 50p - but the designs I find rather boring,
especially hoary old Britannia.
(I said "hoary"...)
> Fine, but I hope they won't change the designs of the pence coins every
> year. That is a nice idea for the Ł1 pieces for example, but not for all
> denominations.
No, the 1p to 50p coins will get a new fixed set of designs. I have
recurrent dreams (as in when I'm asleep about finding various new two pence
designs in my change, then wondering how long this has been going on...)
> Well, I am looking forward to the 2008 designs then. :-)
Me too! Probably there will be a new Welsh design on the 2p and a new
Scottish one on the 5p (quite fitting, since the 5p is our smallest coin. Is
noteboy reading...? Maybe just the name "Smith" will do - amazingly, it's
the most common family name in Scotland).
Demiurge.
Demiurge
> It was the only one with the Machin portrait, so it was rumoured that it
> was a collectors item. Nevertheless I have found some in circulation.
with the public, who aren't usually interested in coins, bombarding hobby
with questions about it, and sometimes claiming that "a man in the pub" had
indeed offered them £15 or £50 for the coin.
See the following page where the Royal Mint refutes this idea:-
http://www.royalmint.com/RoyalMint/web/site/Corporate/Corp_british_coinage/CoinDesign/TwoPoundCoin.asp
"The £2 coin was eventually launched on 15 June 1998, when millions of both
versions of the coin were released. Because of the two different portraits,
however, many confusing stories have arisen. The most common misconception
is that the £2 coin bearing the Raphael Maklouf portrait of the Queen in
which she is wearing a necklace, was made in very modest numbers, Since
millions of these coins were minted this is simply not the case. "
Demiurge.
note.boy
"Demiurge" <m...@me.com> wrote in message news:44b5...@212.67.96.135...
I think it unlikely that any UK government would have a series of coins
without Britannia on one of them.
The 5p was Scottish because before decimalisation there was a Scottish
design shilling, there will be a Welsh design somewhere if there is a major
design change, the Tardis would be appropriate. Billy
Dik T. Winter
> > What I find fascinating is the story about the 2 pound coin from 1997.
> > It was the only one with the Machin portrait, so it was rumoured that it
> > was a collectors item. Nevertheless I have found some in circulation.
>
> The story that that coin was valuable turned into a rather large urban myth,
> with the public, who aren't usually interested in coins, bombarding hobby
> with questions about it, and sometimes claiming that "a man in the pub" had
> indeed offered them £15 or £50 for the coin.
Wow. I would have liked to meet that man. I would even have done the
exchange for a few pints of bitter.
But it is indeed easy to turn something into an urban myth. When, sometime
before 1980, it was announced that the cent coin would no longer be used
from 1980 in the Netherlands, there were many people that hoarded all cent
coins they received, with the impression that they would become valuable.
I knew a family that had a huge bottle (something like 10 liters) nearly
full with cent coins. Perhaps melt value is currently above issue value,
but I doubt it when I also consider inflation. So they are now sitting
on 10 liters of cent coins and the only option is to sell it to melt.
Of course, I have my own hoards. Something like 10 coins of 1 cent. And
quite a few coins of 5 cent and of 15 bani, used to play a game I learned
back in 1970 at the railway station of Bucharest. The nice thing is, they
have different colours and are the same size.
Demiurge
> > Me too! Probably there will be a new Welsh design on the 2p and a new
> > Scottish one on the 5p (quite fitting, since the 5p is our smallest
>
> The 5p was Scottish because before decimalisation there was a Scottish
> design shilling, there will be a Welsh design somewhere if there is a
major
> design change, the Tardis would be appropriate. Billy
For non-Brits, the Tardis is a fictional time-travelling machine which
appears in a current BBC TV series called "Doctor Who". The fictional doctor
is a "timelord" who travels through space and time in his Tardis. The last
two series have occasionally been set in Swansea, Wales - hence Billy
Noteboy's suggestion.
After the success of last year's Doctor Who series, our local Ikea started
selling flat-pack Tardises. I bought one myself - they're great. I saved
myself a lot of money on my coin-collecting holidays, collecting all that
piddling small change the size of a galaxy (intergalactic inflation is a
disgrace these days). And when I'd finished travelling through time and
space, my Tardis doubled as a wardrobe. Great idea.
Demiurge.