Philadelphia coin show
Peter
interested me to attend a lecture by Gregory Dubay. He has studied
the Chinese counterfeits and counterfeiters and had much of interest.
It seems that the counterfeiters are fairly full service operations.
What they do is legal in China. For their highest grade efforts (he
described 4 quality levels), they use actual planchets made for the US
mint, they have surplus presses from the US mint, they have discarded
US dies and die steel, and they are able (for ca. $3000) to create
computer enhanced, laser cut dies.
His lecture included samples of some of the coins (at various
grades). After listening to the lecture, the questions and answers
and examining the sample coins, I asked a question that seems useful
here. Why would anyone pay more for an old coin than the Chinese
charge for one of their copies?
Although I still consider it a serious question, may I mention Dr.
Dubay's answer? He said (broadly) that he is not any longer
interested in purchasing expensive coins.
Mr. Jaggers
I for one am no longer interested, unless those expensive coins are
certified.
Did Dr. Dubay say how they are getting their hands on the authentic
planchets?
James
Peter
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
He said that there were a variety of ways. In some cases the US mined
precious metal is sent to an overseas processing facility (he thought
one was in Australia) and they might have a connection that way.
Failing that they purchase them at coin shows (sometimes in TPG graded
holders). They have also tried to make them themselves.
He also remarked (I think) that he had sent off one of the better
samples to a TPG for grading and had it returned, graded.
Some of these coins were extremely good.
Mr. Jaggers
I've seen Beth Deisher's similar presentation. I've also seen the PCGS
display of their slabbed "mistakes" at CICF 2009. Very scary.
James
Thomas A.
For years the (completely legal) stand of the Chinese government to do
absolutely nothing to curb the mass-production of counterfeit text books,
VHS tapes, DVDs, computer software, music, etc. has infuriated me. The
direct or indirect support of these practices undermine the legitimate
companies' survival and make the legitimate products more expensive for
those who purchase them legally. In light of the recent aggressive and
reprehensible flooding of the coin market with counterfeits of varying
degress of expertise I refuse to purchase any Chinese manufactured product,
including coins, when I have a choice.
The Giant Brain
"Thomas A." <sp...@noXQJZspam.org> wrote in message
news:aP6dnerVpbDfhSDX...@earthlink.com...
Better stay out of K-Mart and Wal*Mart!
mazorj
"Peter" <w2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e61e20c0-eec4-4cc0...@d34g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
>I spent some time at the show in Philadelphia, yesterday. It
> interested me to attend a lecture by Gregory Dubay. He has studied
> the Chinese counterfeits and counterfeiters and had much of interest.
Thank you much, Peter. First, for the very informative report on an
important subject.
Second, for being the very model of restraint by not opening with "I spent a
week in Philadelphia yesterday."
It wouldn't bother me - in fact, I probably could not even have passed up
the cheap shot - but millions of Philadelphians are uttering a collective
"Deo Gratias" in your honor. :-)
On a more serious note, was there anything said about the U.S. government's
attempts to stop these things at the border or in the domestic distribution
channels? Given that the counterfeiters are using old Mint equipment and
materials ought be embarrassing enough to spur them into some substantive
enforcement actions.
Mr. Jaggers
As I recently told another poster, if that's your policy, you will not be
able to buy very many new books, including numismatic titles offered by the
American Numismatic Society. The last three coins books I bought were all
manufactured in China, as are a large portion of other titles you will find
in a modern bookstore.
James
Mr. Jaggers
...unless the politicians happen to be somehow personally profiting from the
arrangement, which I wouldn't put past a single one of them.
James the Accuser
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:h9jjb...@enews1.newsguy.com...
Um, what's the linkage there? I could understand one or two benefitting
from some arrangement, legal or not, but hardly a significant number of
powerful pols. Where's the lobby for imported Chinese counterfeit coins?
Mr. Jaggers
A net trolled for only one kind of fish will nevertheless snare many others.
James the Proverbial
Thomas A.
Yes, I am aware of that; same with the K-Mart and Wal*Mart posting. And I
choose not to buy them almost all of the time now. If I don't absolutely
need something and it's made in China, I leave it.
Mr. Jaggers
There are truly very, very few things that one *absolutely* needs. It's
those things that one does *not* absolutely need that make life interesting.
James the Didactic
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Without a list to refer to, I can't think of ANY exclusively Chinese-made
items that would be on my "absoletely need" list. Of course that might mean
substituting stuff made in Bangladesh, Pakistan, or Mexico, but what the
heck.
Mr. Jaggers
I can't think of any either. But if I wanted a copy of QDB's definitive new
work on Colonial and Early American Coins, I would have to settle for a
product manufactured in China. I do, and I did, and I consider my life the
better for it.
James the Importer
Thomas A.
Terrific. Buy whatever you want, leave what you don't. I do.
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
Ah. I thought that just was the explanation for why UseNet trollers are so
successful.
- mazorj the Multipurposer
Mr. Jaggers
That is excellent advice. I agree completely!
James the Concordant
Mr. Jaggers
In the case of UseNet trollers, it's sort of the opposite. A net trolled
for all kinds of fish will necessarily snare some of those we would not wish
snared.
James the Reciprocal
Peter
> On a more serious note, was there anything said about the U.S. government's
> attempts to stop these things at the border or in the domestic distribution
> channels?
There was a bit of discussion about the enabling role of eBay. It led
to a discussion where Dr. Dubay discussed how he imported his
samples. He said he simply sent them to himself by a shipping company
(I forget whether he mentioned Fedex or whatever). He noted that
several had been opened for inspection by customs with no comment by
the customs.
One interesting comment was that Canadian eBay takes a sterner line
with the Chinese and they don't seem to have the same volume of
counterfeits to deal with.
mazorj
===================
Thanks. That was about what I expected. Which is to say, not much at all.
Try counterfeiting a $20 bill or a $1 note or even a plugged nickel out in
your garage, and a dozen Secret Service agents in three offices will hunt
you down and throw the book at you. Import and distribute large quantities
of fake old U.S. coins and a dozen spin doctors in three agencies will try
to tell us that "We're working on it but gosh darn it, we just can't seem to
get at the source of the problem given our current level of funding."