Chinese forgery
Reid Goldsborough
China, of a 1799 dollar, sold as authentic, on eBay of course:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160390392899
It's a die transfer fake, made using dies produced from an authentic
coin. This outfit was documented in Coin World and at About.com:
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/?nl=1
I've seen this very fake in hand, sent to me to study by a fellow
collector, and I consequently showed it to several other people. The
diameter and weight are in the correct range. The alloy appears to be
correct. However, the details are a bit too mushy, the fields are
slightly bent, it has the luster of MS-62 coin rather than the VF-30
coin it purports to be, the rims are squared off instead of beveled, and
the edge engravings are too careful and neat.
Still, someone is about to be taken, as others have before. Be careful
out there. <g>
--
Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
Reid Goldsborough
> Here's one of the "Big Tree Coin Factory" forgeries, made in Fujian,
> China, of a 1799 dollar, sold as authentic, on eBay of course:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160390392899
This fake sold for $222. I don't understand this.
PCGS prices 1799 VF-30 dollars at $2,750. Granted, this is for
PCGS-slabbed coins, and it's inflated to boot. I haven't been following
the market closely for these coins, but I suspect raw coins like this
sell for $1,500 to $2,000. Did the people bidding on this coin, and the
person winning the auction, think they were getting a deal? Or did they
knowingly bid on and buy a forgery? I suspect they thought they were
getting a deal but factored in that it might be fake, coming from China.
Still, not very rational. I was alerted to this auction, incidentally,
by someone who was doing her research before bidding, saw my Web site,
and asked me if I thought the coin was authentic.
Here's something else. Just as I was checking this item this morning (it
sold last night), eBay removed all evidence of the auction. First it
auction was up, with the winning bid. Then eBay removed it. Presumably
it contacted the "winning" bidder. If he already paid, unless he wired
the money, I suppose he can get his money back from PayPay or by
canceling a check. The seller, wsnldgsm, from China with 125 feedbacks
(151 total beginning in 2005), has not been NARUed, at least not yet.
Currently has one auction up.
Mr. Jaggers
Within the last 7 days he has sold a Northumberland shilling for $69, a
German New Guinea crown for $69, a Lafayette dollar for $99, and an Isabella
quarter for $126.99. He failed to get bids on a Graubunden shooting thaler
and an 1826 half dollar. Successful recent bidders' names are all
"private" - quelle surprise!
A trip through the seller's past feedback is instructive.
James
varois83
wrote:
> Within the last 7 days he has sold a Northumberland shilling for $69, a
> German New Guinea crown for $69, a Lafayette dollar for $99, and an Isabella
> quarter for $126.99. He failed to get bids on a Graubunden shooting thaler
> and an 1826 half dollar. Successful recent bidders' names are all
> "private" - quelle surprise!
>
> A trip through the seller's past feedback is instructive.
>
James
You wrote "Successful recent bidders' names are all
> "private" - quelle surprise!"
Does that mean that the winning bidders are going to resell these
coins for a higher premium as originals?
Man I am glad to be a small collector, I couldn't sleep at night
worrying about shelling hundreds on potentially fake coins.
Patrick
Mr. Jaggers
> On Dec 29 2009, 12:01 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com>
> wrote:
>> Within the last 7 days he has sold a Northumberland shilling for
>> $69, a German New Guinea crown for $69, a Lafayette dollar for $99,
>> and an Isabella quarter for $126.99. He failed to get bids on a
>> Graubunden shooting thaler and an 1826 half dollar. Successful
>> recent bidders' names are all "private" - quelle surprise!
>>
>> A trip through the seller's past feedback is instructive.
>>
>> James- Hide quoted text -
>
> James
>
> You wrote "Successful recent bidders' names are all
>> "private" - quelle surprise!"
> Does that mean that the winning bidders are going to resell these
> coins for a higher premium as originals?
Many sellers will say they use the "private" listing to protect the buyer's
identity, but in reality they use it to prevent others from alerting buyers
to a potentially fake coin.
We can not know the motivations of the winning bidders, but reselling is
always a possibility, whether the goods are legit or not.
> Man I am glad to be a small collector, I couldn't sleep at night
> worrying about shelling hundreds on potentially fake coins.
Small collector or not, one of the great pleasures of numismatics is the
study and learning about the things we collect, and that includes how a
genuine example is manufactured and how it should look. I am starting to
see more and more common coins being faked, to take advantage of the "small"
collector.
And even if you never encounter a fake among coins that are in your price
range, you still must ask yourself: "Would I feel just as angry and
betrayed over paying ten dollars for a genuine five-dollar coin that had
been doctored to look like a ten-dollar coin as I would feel over buying a
fake ten-dollar coin?" Alteration of coins is a serious problem that has
been with us for a very long time, and a collector has to arm himself
against it.
James
Petronius
"varois83" <varo...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:f8e37080-c1b4-4a41...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 29 2009, 12:01 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com>
wrote:
> Within the last 7 days he has sold a Northumberland shilling for $69, a
> German New Guinea crown for $69, a Lafayette dollar for $99, and an Isabella
> quarter for $126.99. He failed to get bids on a Graubunden shooting thaler
> and an 1826 half dollar. Successful recent bidders' names are all
> "private" - quelle surprise!
>
> A trip through the seller's past feedback is instructive.
>
> James- Hide quoted text -
James
You wrote "Successful recent bidders' names are all
> "private" - quelle surprise!"
Does that mean that the winning bidders are going to resell these
coins for a higher premium as originals?
=============================================
The seller, not the buyer, is the one who makes an auction on eBay "private".
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hhngf...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> varois83 wrote:
...
> Small collector or not, one of the great pleasures of numismatics is
> the study and learning about the things we collect, and that
> includes how a genuine example is manufactured and how it should
> look. I am starting to see more and more common coins being faked,
> to take advantage of the "small" collector.
A recent issue of Coin World had an item about a poorly made fake
die-clash Sac dollar. It also noted that years ago, counterfeit SBA
dollars were showing up in South America where U.S. money is widely
used.
The latter was just old-fashioned counterfeiting of money (with the
added twist of releasing it in areas where most people are not
familiar enough with U.S. coinage details to easily spot fakes); but
the former shows that fakes have penetrated the highly specialized
collector market for die errors.
varois83
Well thanks to all for the answers. As far as eventually getting a
fake or two believed to be original in my low end collection does not
worry me. They cost me anywhere from 25 cents to $10 coins for the
most part.
If I ever decide to get any expensive originals ($50 and up) they will
have to come from certified, trusted sources and when I have them in
hand I will show them again to fellow experienced collectors I have
met at shows.
Thanks
Patrick
Mr. Jaggers
After collecting for a few years, a person gets a feel for how real coins
look, as well as which ones are most likely to be faked. Meanwhile, your
plan is a sound one.
James
Peter
There seem to be Chinese sources that make fake coins to whatever
standard you require. Why would anyone pay more for a coin than what
the Chinese are willing to sell it for?
Mr. Jaggers
The psychology of collecting is based upon emotion, not rationality. That's
why.
James
Reid Goldsborough
> Many sellers will say they use the "private" listing to protect the buyer's
> identity, but in reality they use it to prevent others from alerting buyers
> to a potentially fake coin.
eBay stopped the ability of people to contact buyers in all auctions,
not just private ones, some time ago. Private auctions provide some
additional privacy, something to do with feedback, if I recall
correctly. Somebody here probably knows.
Reid Goldsborough
> The psychology of collecting is based upon emotion, not rationality. That's
> why.
From my observations, most collectors most of the time act on both
reason and emotion, not just emotion. Some collectors, on the other
hand, may be more emotional than rational most of the time or with a
particular purchase. Interesting issue. At one extreme, extreme
rationality, you're probably dealing not with a collector but an
investor. At the other extreme, you have a fool being parted with his
money. Again, I think most collectors are between these extremes, more
or less, their collecting psychology based on both.