wire gates vs. conventional gates
kris
i'm looking to buy a set of quickdraws and have read that wiregates are as
strong or stronger than conventional gates, easier to clip, etc.
what are your views on this?
what's the dif between both?
wires on both sides of the draw or mixed?
what are a good set to get?
anyone with any experience with the omegalite 4.0 draw set?
thanx all,
kris
pete theobald
ok heres a comparison.
strengtth.
wire gates are stronger
cross loading
wire gates bend a bit but still hold. Conventional gates snap!
weight
wire gates are lighter
ease of clipping
wire gates are easier (because the gate profile is flat and recessed the
rope doesn't try to slip off sideways.
whiplash
wire gates don't
freezing up
wire gates don't
gate opening
wire gates have a bigger opening
durability
no moving springs in wire gates so can not break.
scare factor when 20ft above.
you can't see a wire gate from a distance so itlooks like the gate isn't
there.
reassuring click.
wire gates have a more mellow reassuring tone.
I haven't got round to replacing all my old gates yet as i can't afford to
but i'm slowly getting all wildwires on my gear.
There absolutely brilliant for easy clipping as the gate is real easy to
hold back with your thumb.
Mr PETE
kris wrote in message ...
David Kreindler
>
> hi all,
> i'm looking to buy a set of quickdraws and have read that wiregates are as
> strong or stronger than conventional gates, easier to clip, etc.
> what are your views on this?
> what's the dif between both?
> wires on both sides of the draw or mixed?
> what are a good set to get?
> anyone with any experience with the omegalite 4.0 draw set?
>
> thanx all,
>
> kris
I can think of only two reasons not to use a wire gate biner:
1. you want a locking biner;
2. you want a key-lock biner to reduce snagging.
If somebody comes up with a key-lock wire-gate biner, reason #2 will go
away.
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Kreindler <ddd.hat...@well.com>
remove '.hates.spam' to reply
David Kreindler
>
> kris wrote:
> >
> > hi all,
> > i'm looking to buy a set of quickdraws and have read that wiregates are as
> > strong or stronger than conventional gates, easier to clip, etc.
> > what are your views on this?
> > what's the dif between both?
> > wires on both sides of the draw or mixed?
> > what are a good set to get?
> > anyone with any experience with the omegalite 4.0 draw set?
> >
> > thanx all,
> >
> > kris
>
> I can think of only two reasons not to use a wire gate biner:
> 1. you want a locking biner;
> 2. you want a key-lock biner to reduce snagging.
>
> If somebody comes up with a key-lock wire-gate biner, reason #2 will go
> away.
If somebody comes up with a locking wire-gate biner, reason #1 will go
away.
Brutus of Wyde
David Kreindler wrote:
> I can think of only two reasons not to use a wire gate biner:
> 1. you want a locking biner;
> 2. you want a key-lock biner to reduce snagging.
3. You don't want your set of wired stoppers auto-clipping
or auto-unclipping from adjacent carabiners.
4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
5. You are setting up a carabiner-brake rappel.
6. You can't afford to replace all 250 of your carabiners with
wiregates.
7. You don't trust wiregates. (That is a valid reason to not
use them. Whether your lack of trust in them is well-founded
is another issue)
YMMV, BTDT, GAL,
Brutus of Wyde
Totally Retrograde Abrasophillic Dementia Ward
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ted Compton
The wire gates also get mangled when used in many aid situations.
Reason 1/2: (because it is not a really good reason): They auto
unclip on bolts and rock protrusions a little easier than some
regular gates.
Ted
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
GREGORY KNESER
reason you stated below and also because IIRC using a biner on a bolt and
then on the rope can end up slicing into the sheath of the rope from burs
in the biner. If you have wires on both sides, it isn't as easy to tell
which side is your rope side.
Greg
Ted Compton (tedcNO...@frontier.net.invalid) wrote:
: 4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
pete theobald
remember to shout at four mate when he uses them all wrong.
Mr PETE
GREGORY KNESER wrote in message <8cada8$boh$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
benc...@my-deja.com
much of a safer they are than normal biners, but they clip alot better
and are lighter. I've used the omegas and don't like them. They have a
cheap feel them, and they don't seem to clip as good as the hotwires.
Ben
D. Virdee
Used wire gates this weekend winter climbing -
didn't like them - simply because the gates are harder to feel with a
gloved hand, and seem
easier to trash in the average scottish winter climbing senario.
However, for summer use - I think they could be great - and a real
weight saver on Alpine routes.
Dave
Bob
<brutus_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>David Kreindler wrote:
>
>> I can think of only two reasons not to use a wire gate biner:
>> 1. you want a locking biner;
>> 2. you want a key-lock biner to reduce snagging.
>
>3. You don't want your set of wired stoppers auto-clipping
>or auto-unclipping from adjacent carabiners.
>
>4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
>
>5. You are setting up a carabiner-brake rappel.
>
>6. You can't afford to replace all 250 of your carabiners with
>wiregates.
>
>7. You don't trust wiregates. (That is a valid reason to not
>use them. Whether your lack of trust in them is well-founded
>is another issue)
>
I've heard that they can cut the rope if cross loaded on the rope end
of a draw. Does anyone know anything about this? true/false?
Karl Lew
--Karl "bankrupt"
<benc...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8cag7a$99r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Brutus of Wyde
"D. Virdee" wrote:
> Used wire gates this weekend winter climbing -
> didn't like them - simply because the gates are harder to feel with a
> gloved hand, and seem easier to trash in the average scottish winter
> climbing senario.
I have just the opposite take, at least for waterfall ice in Canada--
I've switched to using wiregates EXCLUSIVELY when ice climbing,
because I find the gate easier to operate with gloved hands than
a standard round x-section gate, wuich tends to slip off the glove.
I find Neutrinos are too small to use with gloves.
> However, for summer use - I think they could be great - and a real
> weight saver on Alpine routes.
For summer backcountry and fast-and-light alpine, I've switched to
Neutrinos. Unbelievable weight savings in a full-strength carabiner.
Then again, I've started leaving stuff behind, cutting the borders
off my maps, and drilling holes in my spoon to save weight...
Brutus
mr...@my-deja.com
> I've heard that they can cut the rope if cross loaded on the rope end
> of a draw. Does anyone know anything about this? true/false?
According to Chris Harmston of Black Diamond, the exact opposite is
true. The gate will become more mangled and useless, but has not cut the
rope in lab testing or in the field. There are documented cases of
conventional gate biners shredding a rope, however, when cross-loaded
and the rope runs over the sharp-edged gate slot.
Alex
mr...@my-deja.com
mr...@my-deja.com
mr...@my-deja.com
Ted Compton
issue. Different colors is a good one and the colors don't have
to come from the manufacturer. Also, it is probably a good idea
to inspect the rope bearing surface of all your biners before
climbing and clean up any bad ones.
GREGORY KNESER
locking belay biner. It was being used to set up a tyrolean traverse
(for fun) and all the force of 8 people pulling the rope taught with a
Z-Pulley netted one messy spoo of sheath shred.
Never on a wire, though I imagine it would happen were there any
burrs/rough edges though the gate of a wiregate seems to me to have fewer
rough edges than a typical one. Doesn't putzl brag that their biners
have a smoother hinge area?
Greg
: I've heard that they can cut the rope if cross loaded on the rope end
: of a draw. Does anyone know anything about this? true/false?
: Bob
: b...@iinet.net.au
Robert Williams
I have had problems with the gates of conventional biners either freezing
open or freezing close--not a reassuring thing to discover when setting a
piece of pro. Wire gates have never done this to me.
As for difficulty clipping wire gates with gloves on, I use larger,
pear-shaped wire-gates from Kong on the rope end of my alpine draws. I
never have any problems finding or clipping the gate with gloves on.
Finally, Kong also makes oval wire-gated biners but I don't think I would
use them on an aid rack.
Rob
Brutus of Wyde wrote:
D.McMullin
<tedcNO...@frontier.net.invalid> wrote:
>4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
>\
>The wire gates also get mangled when used in many aid situations.
>
Huh Never ever had a problem... I have a zillion wire gates that I
use for aid and they do as well or better than my ovals. Sure I still
use ovals for tricky aid, but for easy to moderate aid where biner
shift matters not - wire gates are a great weight saver.
Suppose if I was hammering a bunch that might be different, but
certainly for clean aid I can see no reason not to use wire gates.
Douglas McMullin
Seal Cove, Maine
Karl Lew
> Brutus
(image of Brutus, sitting forlorn in the
Old Climer's Home, soup dripping down
his chin)
--Karl
Jay Tanzman
[snip]
> whiplash
> wire gates don't
[snip]
Wiregates will still whiplash or vibrate open, but they will do so less
than conventional gate biners.
Jay
maohai huang
: 3. You don't want your set of wired stoppers auto-clipping
: or auto-unclipping from adjacent carabiners.
: 4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
:
are you saying that the nose hook often is what prevents your set of
stoppers auto-unclipping from adjacent carabiners? That sounds
uncomfortable. Aslo, about the "auto-clipping" part, do you mean small
wires caught between the gate wires? Or I missed something ?
Jay Tanzman
David Kreindler <ddd.hat...@well.com> wrote:
> kris wrote:
> >
> > hi all,
> > i'm looking to buy a set of quickdraws and have read that wiregates
are as
> > strong or stronger than conventional gates, easier to clip, etc.
> > what are your views on this?
> > what's the dif between both?
> > wires on both sides of the draw or mixed?
> > what are a good set to get?
> > anyone with any experience with the omegalite 4.0 draw set?
> >
> > thanx all,
> >
> > kris
>
> 1. you want a locking biner;
> 2. you want a key-lock biner to reduce snagging.
3. You realize that wiregates still come open in a fall, and you want
the higher open-gate strength of a Petzl Spirit.
Jay Tanzman
Ted Compton <tedcNO...@frontier.net.invalid> wrote:
> 4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
> The wire gates also get mangled when used in many aid situations.
>
> unclip on bolts and rock protrusions a little easier than some
> regular gates.
A freind of mine says that he has seen wiregate biners come unclipped
from bolts twice, under similar circustances. In both instances the
draw that became unclipped was the on the bolt immediately below the one
that the leader fell on. I suppose this would be a problem only if the
higher bolt were to fail; on the other hand, if that were to happen, it
could be a pretty serious problem.
Inez Drixelius
> Brutus of Wyde (brutus_...@my-deja.com) wrote:
> : 3. You don't want your set of wired stoppers auto-clipping
> : or auto-unclipping from adjacent carabiners.
Brutus of Wyde chirping whilst watching the stopper tumble: "Gnar, it
just came off, I have not idea how but the biner just opened up!"
--
Inez Drixelius
Berkeley, California
Chris Harmston
>I've heard that they can cut the rope if cross loaded on the rope end
>of a draw. Does anyone know anything about this? true/false?
Absolutely false. I am only speaking for BD biners here. chris
>Bob
>b...@iinet.net.au
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
Mitch Allen
: Finally, Kong also makes oval wire-gated biners but I don't think I would
: use them on an aid rack.
According to the catalog I saw, Kong also makes a Bent-gate wire-gate
oval. This seems like a truly bizarre combination of features - what is
this biner for?
Mitch
Karl Lew
--Karl
Mitch Allen <mta...@logan.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:8cb282$r5r$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
Michael E. Gordon
> from bolts twice, under similar circustances. In both instances the
> draw that became unclipped was the on the bolt immediately below the one
> that the leader fell on.
Might it be that the biner was oriented with the gate opening up and NOT
down? Don't remember the thread, but Chris Harmston detailed how he had
perfected the ability to get a biner to self-unclip from a bolt with a
particular movement, as in a simulated fall - but only with the gate
orientation opening up.
I'm now in the regular habit of rotating the bolt-clipped biners after
placement. I don't tend to worry so much with gear, however.
Michael
Michael E. Gordon
> oval. This seems like a truly bizarre combination of features - what is
> this biner for?
Car keys.
John Kramer
John
Chris Harmston <chr...@bdel.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.10.100040...@blkdia.bdel.com...
Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu
> 3. You realize that wiregates still come open in a fall, and you want
> the higher open-gate strength of a Petzl Spirit.
Because wire gates are lighter, their momentum in a fall is less
likely to be large enough to cause them to vibrate open. For the same
reason, they will close more rapidly than a conventional gate if they
should vibrate.
It isn't at all clear to me that a little extra open-gate strength
adds more safety than lower likelyhood of opening in the first place.
Of course you can use locking 'biners for those extra-high-risk clips.
Ken
please reply to <ken dot cline atsign frii dot com>.
Jay Tanzman
Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu wrote:
> Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> writes:
>
> > 3. You realize that wiregates still come open in a fall, and you
want
> > the higher open-gate strength of a Petzl Spirit.
>
> Because wire gates are lighter, their momentum in a fall is less
> likely to be large enough to cause them to vibrate open. For the same
> reason, they will close more rapidly than a conventional gate if they
> should vibrate.
fact, open in some falls. I didn't know it until I saw it happen a few
inches in front of my eyes. That experience made me think: if the wire
gates are going to open anyway, then maybe open-gate strength is more
important than having a wire gate. The Petzl spirit has an open-gate
strength of 9.5 kN (=2100 lb), which should hold any leader fall. If it
is going to hold the fall with the gate open anyway, maybe it doesn't
matter if the gate is more likely than a wire gate to open.
> It isn't at all clear to me that a little extra open-gate strength
> adds more safety than lower likelyhood of opening in the first place.
hold the fall with the gate open, maybe we shouldn't care if it comes
open in the first place.
> Of course you can use locking 'biners for those extra-high-risk clips.
both). Of course, there are times that a particular clip is both
critical and desparate, in which case it might not be possible either to
lock the locker or to place two draws. It's times like that when it
would be nice to be at peace with one's choice of caribiner.
Moof
Sorry, Kong makes wiregate ovals... Doesn't quite add up if you ask
me.
D. Virdee
Jonas Wiklund
<mta...@logan.ucdavis.edu> skrev:
>Robert Williams <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>: Finally, Kong also makes oval wire-gated biners but I don't think I would
>: use them on an aid rack.
>
>According to the catalog I saw, Kong also makes a Bent-gate wire-gate
>oval. This seems like a truly bizarre combination of features - what is
>this biner for?
>
>Mitch
I can not speak for Kong Bent-gate wire-gate, but I have a couple of Camp
ditto. Without doubt the best biner I have ever tried (and I think I have
tried most biners on the European market). I have them on all my friends and
on some qd's as well.
mr...@my-deja.com
> ...did black diamond stop making the Live Wire biners?
I got a BD mail order sale flyer that said so. They were on sale for
like $8 or $9 each, both anodized and unanodized. Don't know if they'll
still give you the price.
Alex
Allard Katan
they're wires.
It's because of the construction.It opens easily for the first cm or so, then
gets stiffer. BD wiregates are first stiff, then give way more easily
allard
Allard Katan
a bit boring
allard
pete theobald
D. Virdee
Is that you baiting me???
Hope so - here goes -
I don't care how good wire gates are -I think they look and feel awful,
and
will never use them.
So there.
Dave
pete theobald
here goes.
they clip brilliantly as the rope goes through the gate with very little
pressure. I only use wildwires as i love them to pieces. I've used hotwires
b4 and i could not stand the feel of them. The omega ones ain't too hot
either as they are real heavy and bulky.
Mr PETE
Brutus of Wyde
> Huh Never ever had a problem... I have a zillion wire gates that I
> use for aid and they do as well or better than my ovals. Sure I still
> use ovals for tricky aid, but for easy to moderate aid where biner
> shift matters not - wire gates are a great weight saver.
>
> Suppose if I was hammering a bunch that might be different, but
> certainly for clean aid I can see no reason not to use wire gates.
Yup. I would have no qualms at all about taking nearly all neutrinos
on Half Dome, or Windhorse. But for something like Zenyatta,
Tribal Rite, or White Room I would take primarily ovals. Don't know
what I'd take on higher, harder stuff. Probably a box of Depends (TM).
Brutus
Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu
> In article <wkitxyy...@cline116.dsl.frii.com>,
> Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu wrote:
> > Because wire gates are lighter, their momentum in a fall is less
> > likely to be large enough to cause them to vibrate open. For the same
> > reason, they will close more rapidly than a conventional gate if they
> > should vibrate.
> I know, but I think many people don't realize that the wire gates do, in
> fact, open in some falls. I didn't know it until I saw it happen a few
> inches in front of my eyes. That experience made me think: if the wire
> gates are going to open anyway, then maybe open-gate strength is more
> important than having a wire gate.
I'll say it once more: It's a good thought, but by no means proof.
Short of using lockers or doubling up, strong wire gates seem
"safest".
> The Petzl spirit has an open-gate
> strength of 9.5 kN (=2100 lb), which should hold any leader fall. If it
> is going to hold the fall with the gate open anyway, maybe it doesn't
> matter if the gate is more likely than a wire gate to open.
Unfortunately, 9.5 kN won't hold all falls. According to a report
from FFME and COSIROC, anchors may be subject to forces as high as
1200 daN, significantly higher than open-gate strength of any of the
carabiners we've been discussing. Don't fool yourself - Gate
vibration still matters.
Also, high-strength wire gate carabiners are rated around 9 or 10 kN
gate-open strength themselves.
> Of course, there are times that a particular clip is both critical
> and desparate, in which case it might not be possible either to lock
> the locker or to place two draws. It's times like that when it would
> be nice to be at peace with one's choice of caribiner.
You *can* always hang while locking the gate. That's better than
dying.
Ken
Jay Tanzman
Although a belay anchor might be subjected to 1.2 kN in a factor-2 fall,
I don't think that bolts above the anchor would be, since the fall would
be less than factor 2. I should have been more precise: not "any"
leader fall, but, for all practical purposes, any leader fall where at
least one bolt or other pro is clipped above the anchor or ground.
Jay
Chris Harmston
>Speaking of wire gate did black diamond stop making the Live Wire biners?
Yes. It was too expensive for most people. Due to the very low sales
volume we stopped making it. In general people will not spend more than
about $8.00 for a biner. This eliminates hot forged biners in general.
chris
>
>John
>
>Chris Harmston <chr...@bdel.com> wrote in message
>news:Pine.A41.4.10.100040...@blkdia.bdel.com...
>> On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Bob wrote:
>>
>> >I've heard that they can cut the rope if cross loaded on the rope end
>> >of a draw. Does anyone know anything about this? true/false?
>>
>> Absolutely false. I am only speaking for BD biners here. chris
>>
>> >Bob
>> >b...@iinet.net.au
>>
>> Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
>> Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
>> Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
>> 2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
>>
>
>
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
Keith Hay
to me directly. The other place that had them was Northern Mountain Supply
http://www.northernmountain.com/catindex.html
Keith
mr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> John Kramer inquired:
>
> > ...did black diamond stop making the Live Wire biners?
>
> I got a BD mail order sale flyer that said so. They were on sale for
> like $8 or $9 each, both anodized and unanodized. Don't know if they'll
> still give you the price.
>
> Alex
>
Chuck Spiekerman
> There are many solutions to the rope biner v.s. bolt biner
> issue.
Eschew Bolts!!!
Chuck
Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu
> > Unfortunately, 9.5 kN won't hold all falls. According to a report
> > from FFME and COSIROC, anchors may be subject to forces as high as
> > 1200 daN, significantly higher than open-gate strength of any of the
> > carabiners we've been discussing. Don't fool yourself - Gate
> > vibration still matters.
>
> Although a belay anchor might be subjected to 1.2 kN in a factor-2 fall,
> I don't think that bolts above the anchor would be, since the fall would
> be less than factor 2. I should have been more precise: not "any"
> leader fall, but, for all practical purposes, any leader fall where at
> least one bolt or other pro is clipped above the anchor or ground.
OK, let's try this again...
According to the paper I mentioned, "laboratory experiments show
forces actually comprised between 600 and 1200 daN [on the first
anchor above a belay]". Also, friction increases effective fall
factor, so big fall forces can also be generated high on a route. The
bottom line is you're fooling yourself if you believe that 10 kN is
enough strength to hold all potential falls above the belay.
Another way to look at this is to ask why, if anchors are recommended
to withstand a minimum of 2200 kN (2400 kN for belays and first above
a belay), it is safe to trust a carabiner rated at less than half that
strength?
While we're at it, keep in mind that carabiner strength ratings are
done in ideal conditions with small radius rods pulling on the
carabiner. In the real world the sling will likely torque the
carabiner to some extnt, weakening it. If the carabiner happens to be
pulled against the rock in the fall, that, too, might weaken it.
Lastly, a heavy climber can generate even higher forces than we have
been discussing.
Ken
Chris Harmston
WARNING. It is not always the best practice to rotate the gate down
from the bolt. You should do it only when appropriate. There are
situations where the rock may interfere with the gate more than the
bolt. Note, it is primarily the bolt head that interacts with the gate,
not the hanger. In general I face the gate away from the bolt head with
the gate facing up. If I need to place a draw on a bolt so that the
gate faces the bolt head then I may rotate the biner if I think it is
necessary (necessary being a lower probability of inadvertant gate
opening). With all this you still have to ensure that the rope biner
is facing away from your direction of travel and that the rope is
clipped in correctly (with the rope comming from the rock toward you).
Chris
Chris Harmston
>ever tried wipping them on the back of your hand? They'll open, even though
>they're wires.
>It's because of the construction.It opens easily for the first cm or so, then
>gets stiffer. BD wiregates are first stiff, then give way more easily
Your statement is missleading and potentially contradictory. Are you
saying that the KONG bent gate opens when slapping your hand? Are
you indicating that the BD wire gates do not or are you saying that the
BD ones also open. When you say they eaisly open how far do they open
and how do you measure it. The audible click indicates that the gate
has opened but it may not be enough to clear the nose hook.
>
>allard
>
>Jonas Wiklund wrote:
>
>> I meddelande <8cb282$r5r$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, Mitch Allen
>> <mta...@logan.ucdavis.edu> skrev:
>>
>> >Robert Williams <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >: Finally, Kong also makes oval wire-gated biners but I don't think I would
>> >: use them on an aid rack.
>> >
>> >According to the catalog I saw, Kong also makes a Bent-gate wire-gate
>> >oval. This seems like a truly bizarre combination of features - what is
>> >this biner for?
>> >
>> >Mitch
>>
>> I can not speak for Kong Bent-gate wire-gate, but I have a couple of Camp
>> ditto. Without doubt the best biner I have ever tried (and I think I have
>> tried most biners on the European market). I have them on all my friends and
>> on some qd's as well.
>
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
Chad Lake
Chuck Spiekerman <cspi...@biostat.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>Eschew Bolts!!!
>
I eschew clothes and I solo.
-c
Karl Lew
> Chuck
Gesundheit.
--Karl
Chris Harmston
broken biners in the 8 years I have been at BD. Most were BD biners but
many were not. I have never seen a failed wiregate biner so far (except
one that was missused in construction). I have seen broken Petzl
Spirits, DMM Mamba's, Lite D's, Quicksilver's, Big Easy's, etc. They
all broke in open gate. Avoiding open gate loading is critical. Very
rarely will a carabiner break in closed gate (always due to way extreme
loading conditions).
Unclipping versus gate opening (these are two different issues).
I have heard of two examples of wire gates comming unclipped on lower
bolts than the one fallen onto or lowered off of (previous to this
thread). I have two reports of unclipping with standard gates which I
will relate here. The first was by Kim Csizmazia in the Black Canyon.
She was leading the first pitch of Colorado Welcome Party, 5.11+ r.
Anyway, the first pitch has only about 2 pieces of protection (bolts).
She clipped draws on these and clipped the rope in. When she got to the
top the rope was no longer in the biners. She basically soloed the first
pitch. Nobody knew or understood how the two biners came unclipped and
they all said they were in fact clipped when she climbed past them (her
partners were Kennan Harvey and Topher Donahue). The second incident was
a miracle. Robbie Colbert was doing the first ascent of a very nasty
desperate mixed route in Maple Canyon (Reality Check, M6 WI7 X). He
only had one piece in at just over half height (120 foot total route
length). It was a Spectre pounded between two Cobbles. He had just
topped out on the flats and slipped in the snow. He fell to the ground!
The rope was unclipped. He walked away with a bruise and the wind
knocked out of him. He landed in about 3 feet of snow at the base of
the route. I am sure that there are other stories of unclipping. these
are just the ones I know of.
Wire gates can come unclipped, but so can any carabiner given the right
circumstances. Most gate openings are due to interaction with the rock
or bolt head, not due to whiplash (there are two kinds of whiplash--1 is
when the biner slams against the rock and the momentum of the movement
causes the gate to open, in this case wire gates are FAR superior--2 is
when the gate opens without any interaction with hitting anything. I
believe this is a rare occurance and is primarily due to the coupling
between the gate spring and the rope when it becomes tight (ever notice
the vibrations in a stretching rubberband?), this type of whiplash
probability increases greatly when gear zippers prior to the one that
breaks). In testing the impact whiplash we took biners mounted on the
end of a 3 foot long steel rod hooked to a bolt so it can rotate freely.
We then lifted the biner and rod to the vertical position and let it
fall onto concrete in a 90 degree arc with the gate facing up. We took
high speed photographs of the gate opening event. All conventional gate
biner gates opened to half the gate opening or even all the way to the
spine. The wire gates did not even clear the nose hook and basically did
not open at all.
Biner gates rubbing on rock are the most significant cause of open gate.
Many people feel that wire gates suffer from this more than conventional
gates. I have conducted tests to see if this is in fact true and have
not proved it. In general I do not think it is true. However, in 1 to
1.5 in parallel cracks the hinge end of the hotwire fits in the crack
with the edge of the crack on the gate more so than conventional biners.
In this situation I think that wire gates open more easily, but all
gates can open in this situation as well. I have never seen a failure
in this scenario.
Ratings are another story. Each manufacturer uses different rating
schemes. Many use 3 Sigma but even then there are vast differences in
test sampling, application of 3 sigma, and rounding of the numbers.
Since most people in this thread are using the Hotwire as the "example"
I will use it for comparison. Our ratings are only whole numbers. We
always round down. If the rating happened to come out to 9.9 kN we rate
it at 9 kN. The first year of a product the rating is tentative. To
calculate a rating we break between 20 and 30 samples for each
configuration and stamp the rating (average minus 3 standard deviations)
onto the product and in the literature. Note, this rating is based on a
single run of product from a single heat treat lot. This rating does
not take into account the variability due to multiple batches processed
with different lots of material at different times. During the first
year (and all subsequent years) we take 15 samples from each batch of
carabiners made (usually in groups of 2500 per batch-some people think
this is very low sampling-I think it is adequate considering all the
other in-process testing and inspections we do). 5 samples are tested
in each of the three primary rating configurations. After the first
year we recalculate the rating using the data from all batches. We use
a batch weighted system (on the standard deviation) to calculate the 3
sigma rating for the previous years worth of data. We then apply this
rating to the next years product. In many situations we will not change
the rating if the rating is actually higher because of the cost to
change literature and dies. If the rating is lower then we will invest
the money to change tooling and reduce the rating. When we first
introduced the Hotwire the preliminary rating was 10 kN (same with the
Spirit). After one year our rating was at 9.6 kN. Therefore we dropped
the rating to 9 kN. During the time period from 8/11/98 to 3/14/00 the
rating for the Hotwire is 9.37 kN. It will stay at 9 kN unless we do
something to change the base geometry of the biner.
A 9.5 or 10, or 11 kN open gate rating in no way guarantees that the
carabiner will not fail. I recently reviewed a closed gate failure of a
Quicksilver2. 25 kN! This person screwed up and got way lucky (no
injuries but one hell of a shock). He took a 60 foot factor 2 static
belay fall with an 11 mm dynamic rope. Somehow he tied a knot into his
lead line below his last piece. He fell and the knot slammed into the
biner. Luckily he had clipped two draws onto the two bolts that were
present. The point of the story is that carabiners can and do break.
Failures are caused primarily due to a mistake in the climbers technique
and failure to recognize a potentially dangerous geometry. See my other
posts on this subject (recently and previously). Chris
On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Jay Tanzman wrote:
>In article <wkitxyy...@cline116.dsl.frii.com>,
>Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu wrote:
>> Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> writes:
>>
>> > 3. You realize that wiregates still come open in a fall, and you
>want
>> > the higher open-gate strength of a Petzl Spirit.
>>
>> Because wire gates are lighter, their momentum in a fall is less
>> likely to be large enough to cause them to vibrate open. For the same
>> reason, they will close more rapidly than a conventional gate if they
>> should vibrate.
>I know, but I think many people don't realize that the wire gates do, in
>fact, open in some falls. I didn't know it until I saw it happen a few
>inches in front of my eyes. That experience made me think: if the wire
>gates are going to open anyway, then maybe open-gate strength is more
>important than having a wire gate. The Petzl spirit has an open-gate
>strength of 9.5 kN (=2100 lb), which should hold any leader fall. If it
>is going to hold the fall with the gate open anyway, maybe it doesn't
>matter if the gate is more likely than a wire gate to open.
>> It isn't at all clear to me that a little extra open-gate strength
>> adds more safety than lower likelyhood of opening in the first place.
>I'm not convinced one way or the other, but, again, if it's going to
>hold the fall with the gate open, maybe we shouldn't care if it comes
>open in the first place.
>> Of course you can use locking 'biners for those extra-high-risk clips.
>Yeah, or use two draws with gates opposed (or is that reversed, or
>both). Of course, there are times that a particular clip is both
>critical and desparate, in which case it might not be possible either to
>lock the locker or to place two draws. It's times like that when it
>would be nice to be at peace with one's choice of caribiner.
>Jay
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Chris Harmston
>
>Another way to look at this is to ask why, if anchors are recommended
>to withstand a minimum of 2200 kN (2400 kN for belays and first above
>a belay), it is safe to trust a carabiner rated at less than half that
>strength?
I am not sure Ken's numbers are correct here. The CEN standard
"Mountaineering Equipment-Rock Anchors-Safety Requirements and test
Methods---EN 959 : 1996" i.e. the European standard for bolt anchors
requires that the strength for axial loading is 15 kN (3372 lbf) and for
radial loading is 25 kN (5620 lbf). This test is for the hanger and the
bolt itself. I think Ken's numbers are supposed to be 22 kN and 24 kN
and are from an obsolete standard (or it is possible that my standard
is also obsolete). Chris
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
Chris Harmston
Much snipping...
>> Unfortunately, 9.5 kN won't hold all falls. According to a report
>> from FFME and COSIROC, anchors may be subject to forces as high as
>> 1200 daN, significantly higher than open-gate strength of any of the
>> carabiners we've been discussing. Don't fool yourself - Gate
>> vibration still matters.
>
>Although a belay anchor might be subjected to 1.2 kN in a factor-2 fall,
>I don't think that bolts above the anchor would be, since the fall would
>be less than factor 2. I should have been more precise: not "any"
>leader fall, but, for all practical purposes, any leader fall where at
>least one bolt or other pro is clipped above the anchor or ground.
>
1200 daN is 12 kN and Ken is not speaking about belay anchors he is
speaking about anchors in general (I actually think these numbers he is
quoting are low). Remember, ropes are designed to limit the force
felt by the climber to 12 kN in a factor 1.8 fall with 180 lb mass and a
static belay. They typically give forces that range from 7 to 10 kN (10
kN is 2248 lbf). This is the force felt by the climber not by the top
anchor. The anchor feels roughly 2/3 again this load. If the climber
felt 10 kN then the anchor above would feel about 16 kN. It is easy to
generate forces above 12 kN on the top piece of protection given the
right situation (see my other posts). It is not hard to generate
10 kN on the top piece even for a moderate fall factor. The most
common situation is when the belayer rapidly takes in slack and
locks off the belay (this is also the situation where the most ankles
have been broken when the leader slams back into the rock. Generally
speaking it is far better to fall farther and softer than shorter and
harder). chris
>Jay
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Thor Lancelot Simon
Ted Compton <tedcNO...@frontier.net.invalid> wrote:
>4. you are aiding and prefer ovals for that purpose.
>The wire gates also get mangled when used in many aid situations.
>
>Reason 1/2: (because it is not a really good reason): They auto
>unclip on bolts and rock protrusions a little easier than some
>regular gates.
In my experience, only BD Hotwires are even close to acceptable in uses
where the gate may rub against the rock or a bolt hanger. Trango
wiregates are okay, and Omega wiregates are really, really bad. I've seen
Omegas, when used reversed and opposed in an anchor setup, rub open against
*each other*. I use them for the rope end on sport draws -- the wire gate
and the unique Omega 4.0 shape make for a really, really easy clip -- and
for ice climbing. And that's about it. I kinda wish I hadn't bought the
Omega wiregates, but they *were* cheap...
AFAIK only the BD Hotwire and Livewire have the hooded nose that protects
the wire gate loop from coming open when it rubs against rock. I've seen
*all* brands of wiregates do that, even Hotwires, though -- Hotwires are
just the best about it.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu
> On 4 Apr 2000 Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu wrote:
> >
> >Another way to look at this is to ask why, if anchors are recommended
> >to withstand a minimum of 2200 kN (2400 kN for belays and first above
> >a belay), it is safe to trust a carabiner rated at less than half that
> >strength?
>
> I am not sure Ken's numbers are correct here. The CEN standard
> "Mountaineering Equipment-Rock Anchors-Safety Requirements and test
> Methods---EN 959 : 1996" i.e. the European standard for bolt anchors
> requires that the strength for axial loading is 15 kN (3372 lbf) and for
> radial loading is 25 kN (5620 lbf). This test is for the hanger and the
> bolt itself. I think Ken's numbers are supposed to be 22 kN and 24 kN
> and are from an obsolete standard (or it is possible that my standard
> is also obsolete). Chris
Thanks for the update, Chris. I'm sure your standard is more recent.
The numbers I used are from the COSIROC paper "Techniques of
Protection Anchorages" [partial translation, 1992]. This paper does
not consider axial loading, where the standard seems to require only
15 kN.
Note that this standard requires *more* strength from anchors than the
COSIROC report, making open gate garabiners seem even weaker in
comparison.
Ken
Ted Compton
old pins or even ice screw hangers can "ding your biner" So even
if your chosen route is blissfully bolt free you may still need
to inspect your "biner" frequently.
Ted(nothing is going to snag on my biner)Compton.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Aya Kristen Alt
I don't care what those people at Rock & Snow in New Paltz were saying (they
were dissing my biners) I /like/ them ! :)
(my pointless post for the month, sorry)
Aya
Allard Katan
The statement I made was not about Kong wire gates (never held those in
my hands) but about the Camp ones Jonas referred to.
I have not done any measurements, just the whipping-on
the-back-of-your-hand thing. I never stated they open up far enough to
clear the nose hook, although not much clearance is needed for that.
The easy opening I mentioned was meant to be an explanation of why the
Camp biners do give a click while BD hotwires (for instance) do not.
I'll try to explain.
If you push the gate of the camp biners, the further you open them, the
more resistance you'll feel. So it has the least resistance in the first
bit of opening. With the hotwires, you'll first feel a lot of
resistance, then pass some sort of "dead point" after which opening the
gate becomes a lot easier. This has to do with the relative placement of
the two points where the gatewire is attached to the biner.
The reason why wiregates don't "whiplash" is that the inertial force of
the gate is a lot less, since the gate's weight is lower. The countering
spring force of the Camp biner is also a lot less, though, which it's
gate still "whiplashes"
Camp has just, once again, copied a good idea without really
understanding it.
allard, awaiting Camp's answer
Chris Harmston wrote:
>
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Allard Katan wrote:
>
> >ever tried wipping them on the back of your hand? They'll open, even though
> >they're wires.
> >It's because of the construction.It opens easily for the first cm or so, then
> >gets stiffer. BD wiregates are first stiff, then give way more easily
>
> Your statement is missleading and potentially contradictory. Are you
> saying that the KONG bent gate opens when slapping your hand? Are
> you indicating that the BD wire gates do not or are you saying that the
> BD ones also open. When you say they eaisly open how far do they open
> and how do you measure it. The audible click indicates that the gate
> has opened but it may not be enough to clear the nose hook.
>
> >
> >allard
> >
> >Jonas Wiklund wrote:
> >
> >> I meddelande <8cb282$r5r$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, Mitch Allen
> >> <mta...@logan.ucdavis.edu> skrev:
> >>
> >> >Robert Williams <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >: Finally, Kong also makes oval wire-gated biners but I don't think I would
> >> >: use them on an aid rack.
> >> >
> >> >According to the catalog I saw, Kong also makes a Bent-gate wire-gate
> >> >oval. This seems like a truly bizarre combination of features - what is
> >> >this biner for?
> >> >
> >> >Mitch
> >>
> >> I can not speak for Kong Bent-gate wire-gate, but I have a couple of Camp
> >> ditto. Without doubt the best biner I have ever tried (and I think I have
> >> tried most biners on the European market). I have them on all my friends and
> >> on some qd's as well.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
> Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
> Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
> 2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
>
> DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
> opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
--
What is it that you contain...Are your 23 feet of intestines loaded with
stars?
....the atoms that you are were shook out of a starburst ante-dating
the solar system.
We are the beginning. We are before time.
Jeanette Winterson, Gut Symmetries
Allard Katan
figures:
Force on anchor point:
2m fall, factor 2, 80kg climber: 18 kN
10m fall, factor 1.9, 80kg climber: 15 kn
10m fall, factor 1.1, 80kg climber: 10 kn
No figures on max. impact force of the rope used are given. That's an
important factor in the story. CE requires it to be 12kN max, but most
single 10.5 mil ropes are well below this. Of course, this figure goes
up with age.
Allard
Allard Katan
It's good to hear it from someone who knows!
Just wondering, how much is sigma? How much spread do you get in the
measurements? Is it very different for different biners, or other
products (harnesses, slings, etc.)
allard
Chris Harmston wrote:
-long but informing story about biners snipped-
>
> Ratings are another story. Each manufacturer uses different rating
> schemes. Many use 3 Sigma but even then there are vast differences in
> test sampling, application of 3 sigma, and rounding of the numbers.
Bob
wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, John Kramer wrote:
>
>>Speaking of wire gate did black diamond stop making the Live Wire biners?
>
>Yes. It was too expensive for most people. Due to the very low sales
>volume we stopped making it. In general people will not spend more than
>about $8.00 for a biner. This eliminates hot forged biners in general.
>chris
>
>>
>
Pffffttt....you should come here then...BD Quicksilver IIs are like
$30 (~$20 US) in Australia :-(
You DON'T want to know how much the camalots are....
(tho' Chris might)
Eric D. Coomer
Brutus of Wyde <brutus_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ccufn$v9q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Yup. I would have no qualms at all about taking nearly all neutrinos
> on Half Dome, or Windhorse. But for something like Zenyatta,
> Tribal Rite, or White Room I would take primarily ovals. Don't know
> what I'd take on higher, harder stuff. Probably a box of Depends
(TM).
For what it matters, we're taking half ovals and about half neutrinos
on our next adventure. Of course, it's still about double the normal
lot of biners so this isn't much of a data point.
Cheers
Eric
Brutus of Wyde
"Eric D. Coomer"
> For what it matters, we're taking half ovals and about half neutrinos
> on our next adventure. Of course, it's still about double the normal
> lot of biners so this isn't much of a data point.
Would this be your Baffin trip?
Brutus
Chris Harmston
>Petzl has a nice section on forces on anchors in their catalog. Their
>figures:
>Force on anchor point:
>2m fall, factor 2, 80kg climber: 18 kN
>10m fall, factor 1.9, 80kg climber: 15 kn
>10m fall, factor 1.1, 80kg climber: 10 kn
>
>No figures on max. impact force of the rope used are given. That's an
>important factor in the story. CE requires it to be 12kN max, but most
>single 10.5 mil ropes are well below this. Of course, this figure goes
>up with age.
I do not have much data on the age of ropes but impact force also goes
up after repeated falls. This is why you need to allow your rope to
relax between falls. It is also why many manufacturers recommend
retirement of ropes after a high force fall. The difficult part is
trying to determine what a high force fall is when you are the climber.
My rule of thumb is that if the arrest of the fall feels like it is
ripping my guts and back apart I have generated too much force.
>> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>> >Before you buy.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
>> Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
>> Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
>> 2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
>>
>> DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
>> opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
>
>--
>What is it that you contain...Are your 23 feet of intestines loaded with
>stars?
> ....the atoms that you are were shook out of a starburst ante-dating
>the solar system.
> We are the beginning. We are before time.
>
> Jeanette Winterson, Gut Symmetries
>
>
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Chris Harmston
is that there is a large variability in gate action with all biners of
all makes. You may well find other Camp biners that do not click when
slaping your hand. You may also find some softer BD wire biners that do
give a slight click. This is something that is hard to control
actually. It is something we use a computer controlled torque device to
check all our biners to ensure that they at least fall within our
specified range of acceptability. We usually accept ones with "too
stiff" of a gate but scrap biners with "too soft" of a gate. If you
have been climbing for more than 10 years you will probably have noticed
that all biners from BD have significantly stiffer gate actions than
they used to be. This has been done to reduce the potential for
whiplash in all styles. However, it can still happen. Chris
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Allard Katan wrote:
Chris Harmston
>Hi Chris,
>
>It's good to hear it from someone who knows!
>Just wondering, how much is sigma? How much spread do you get in the
>measurements? Is it very different for different biners, or other
>products (harnesses, slings, etc.)
Of course the answer depends. Sigmas range from 20 lbf to several
thousand lbf. Ice screws tested in ice have the highest variability
(2000). Biners have some of the lowest sigmas that range from 20 to 300
lbf depending on the style and mode tested. Slings generally have a
higher sigma of 300 to 500 lbf. Cams tested in granite have sigmas
around 250 lbf. Stoppers/Hexes have sigmas below 50. Overall the
average sigma for all BD products is 150 lbf. In general, the stronger
the product the higher the sigma as well. Chris
>
>allard
>
>Chris Harmston wrote:
>-long but informing story about biners snipped-
>>
>
>> Ratings are another story. Each manufacturer uses different rating
>> schemes. Many use 3 Sigma but even then there are vast differences in
>> test sampling, application of 3 sigma, and rounding of the numbers.
>
>
>--
>What is it that you contain...Are your 23 feet of intestines loaded with
>stars?
> ....the atoms that you are were shook out of a starburst ante-dating
>the solar system.
> We are the beginning. We are before time.
>
> Jeanette Winterson, Gut Symmetries
>
>
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
Eric D. Coomer
> Would this be your Baffin trip?
22 days and counting...
Seriously though, ovals are great for aid, but on a really big
project, the neutrinos are going to save an amazing amount of weight.
From the tales I've heard told, neutrinos make up almost the entire
rack on the recent speed ascents. Those babies are awesome. Going to
be interesting working those with gloves on though...
Cheers
Eric
blatant plug
Satan sez buy a goddamn shirt would ya'! :)
Jim Leininger
"Eric D. Coomer" wrote:
> Brutus of Wyde <brutus_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8ccufn$v9q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Yup. I would have no qualms at all about taking nearly all neutrinos
> > on Half Dome, or Windhorse. But for something like Zenyatta,
> > Tribal Rite, or White Room I would take primarily ovals. Don't know
> > what I'd take on higher, harder stuff. Probably a box of Depends
> (TM).
>
> For what it matters, we're taking half ovals and about half neutrinos
> on our next adventure. Of course, it's still about double the normal
> lot of biners so this isn't much of a data point.
>
> Cheers
> Eric
bh
will hold a non-factor 2 fall with the gate open, you simply
cannot generate a non-factor 2 fall with more than 8kn of force,
unless you really try hard.
The only situation in which one of these beiners would fail is a
factor 2 fall, where the climber falls past the belayer, and onto
the belay gear/beiner. This non-issue then boils down simply -
if you are belaying off of a single, non locking, wiregate, and
your leader falls onto the belay, there is a good chance that,
under the right conditions (fat 11mm rope, gri-gri belay, hanging
belay) the beiner is going to break, if someone has taped the
gate open before the next pitch was lead. Remember what
generally causes the gate to open - rope whip (which wiregates
tend to negate due to their lower mass), and interference with
rock (less than vertical climbs). Besides, if you are belaying a
leader on a multipitch climb off of a single, non locking
wiregate, you both probably deserve to die anyway, out of pure
stupidity.
For those that still aren't convinced, and are worried that their
high-dollar,
40-years-in-development-since-salathe-used-bent-up-coathangers-for-beiners-on-his-hard-climbs
beiner is going to come flying apart the first time they take a 2
foot fall onto a 1/2" bolt placed next to a 2" granite crack, use
a freaking locker. Jessssusss!
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> This is ridiculous. A decent (8kn opengate strength) wiregate
> will hold a non-factor 2 fall with the gate open, you simply
> cannot generate a non-factor 2 fall with more than 8kn of force,
> unless you really try hard.
Bull! Carabiners occasionally break on the first bolt of sport
routes. Presumably these are gate open failures. You don't have to
fall onto the anchor to break a carabiner, you just have to be
unlucky.
Also, you apparently didn't read my earlier article. I'll include the
complete quote from a 1992 COSIROC paper on rock climbing anchors:
Laboratoiry (sic) experiments (R. Lassia, previously quoted) show
forces [on the anchor immediately above the belay] actually
comprised between 600 and 1200 daN, while we previously thought our
predictions to be rather pessimistic.
Chris Harmston suggested that the forces detailed in this paper might
be on the low.
Oh yeah, you haven't addressed my question: Why are anchors required
to hold 25 kN if, as you suggest, forces can't exceed 8 kN?
> The only situation in which one of these beiners would fail is a
> factor 2 fall, where the climber falls past the belayer, and onto
> the belay gear/beiner.
In summary:
Bzzzt! Thanks for playing.
> For those that still aren't convinced, and are worried that their
> high-dollar,
> 40-years-in-development-since-salathe-used-bent-up-coathangers-for-beiners-on-his-hard-climbs
> beiner is going to come flying apart the first time they take a 2
> foot fall onto a 1/2" bolt placed next to a 2" granite crack, use
> a freaking locker. Jessssusss!
Didn't I suggest this already? I frequently use lockers, double up my
carabiners, or use screamers. Chris - the only real expert
participating in this discussion - has said that he often uses lockers
in mid-pitch. If you want to increase your own risk of injury or
death be my guest, but please don't do so out of ignorance.
Ken
GeoffCJ
>Satan sez buy a goddamn shirt would ya'! :)
>
BTW- I'm not affilated with the trip at all, but I saw one of those t-shirts
last weekend, and boy are they snazzy!
Geoff
David Kreindler
>
> This is ridiculous. A decent (8kn opengate strength) wiregate
> will hold a non-factor 2 fall with the gate open, you simply
> cannot generate a non-factor 2 fall with more than 8kn of force,
> unless you really try hard.
I believe that this statement is incorrect. A heavy climber and a static
belay combined with a high (but sub-2) fall factor could easily result
in upwards of 8 kN of force at the climber's end, which would translate
to 10 kN or more at the anchor biner. Perhaps "try hard" means a fall
factor greater than one?
> The only situation in which one of these beiners would fail is a
> factor 2 fall, where the climber falls past the belayer, and onto
> the belay gear/beiner. This non-issue then boils down simply -
> if you are belaying off of a single, non locking, wiregate, and
> your leader falls onto the belay, there is a good chance that,
> under the right conditions (fat 11mm rope, gri-gri belay, hanging
> belay) the beiner is going to break, if someone has taped the
> gate open before the next pitch was lead. Remember what
> generally causes the gate to open - rope whip (which wiregates
> tend to negate due to their lower mass), and interference with
> rock (less than vertical climbs). Besides, if you are belaying a
> leader on a multipitch climb off of a single, non locking
> wiregate, you both probably deserve to die anyway, out of pure
> stupidity.
Whether or not stupid climbers deserve to die is best left for
rec.philosphy. The point of this thread seems to be to affirm the
consensus that (1) wire-gate biners allow for stronger open-gate
strength because, for a given biner weight, more metal can be devoted to
the back of the biner instead of to the gate, and (2) that wire gates
with comparable spring force are less likely to lash or flutter open
because of their lower mass. The questions left to be resolved are
whether wire gates rub open more readily than rod gates and whether
key-lock biners (in particular the Petzl Spirit) are still worthwhile.
> For those that still aren't convinced, and are worried that their
> high-dollar,
> 40-years-in-development-since-salathe-used-bent-up-coathangers-for-beiners-on-his-hard-climbs
> beiner is going to come flying apart the first time they take a 2
> foot fall onto a 1/2" bolt placed next to a 2" granite crack, use
> a freaking locker. Jessssusss!
I recommend a locking Spirit.
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Kreindler <ddd.hat...@well.com>
remove '.hates.spam' to reply
Chuck Spiekerman
> This is ridiculous. A decent (8kn opengate strength) wiregate
> will hold a non-factor 2 fall with the gate open, you simply
> cannot generate a non-factor 2 fall with more than 8kn of force,
> unless you really try hard.
Perhaps in your "calculations" you forgot to mulitply the force put
on a piece of lead protection by around 1.7 (SWAG)? Pulley effect.
Chuck
Ben Craft
> From the tales I've heard told, neutrinos make up almost the entire
> rack on the recent speed ascents. Those babies are awesome. Going to
Based upon on what those guys carry on their racks, I don't think it will
make much difference!
Ben
Chris Harmston
>This is ridiculous. A decent (8kn opengate strength) wiregate
>will hold a non-factor 2 fall with the gate open, you simply
>cannot generate a non-factor 2 fall with more than 8kn of force,
>unless you really try hard.
I would say that your understanding of the physics of this thread are
lacking. Even moderate falls can and do break carabiners when the gates
are open. In general, if you fall on an open gate biner you will break
it. You can easily generate more than 8 kN of force in real climbing
situations.
Chris Harmston
>Whether or not stupid climbers deserve to die is best left for
>rec.philosphy. The point of this thread seems to be to affirm the
>consensus that (1) wire-gate biners allow for stronger open-gate
>strength because, for a given biner weight, more metal can be devoted to
>the back of the biner instead of to the gate, and (2) that wire gates
>with comparable spring force are less likely to lash or flutter open
>because of their lower mass. The questions left to be resolved are
>whether wire gates rub open more readily than rod gates and whether
>key-lock biners (in particular the Petzl Spirit) are still worthwhile.
Point 1 is not true. Open gate strength is a function of the geometry
of the body and is independent of the gate, hinge, or nose of the biner.
Point 2 is correct. In some situations wire gates can rub open easier
than regular gates and in some conditions regular gates can be opened
easier. Yes, I think Keylock biners are still worthwhile.
Brent Ware
<lei...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Hey Eric, where are your t-shirts available from? Like to get one....
Either me (bw...@bware.org) or Eric (coo...@ix.netcom.com). Not
available in stores! Only through this special Internet offer!
For those of you who've been putting off getting one because you were
uncertain of the Monkey Boys' taste in graphics (smart folks!), there
are now gifs on the web page.
And a big thanks to those of you who've sent your cash. Prices will go
up when the survivors return and the tshirts become collector's items.
Think "Alive!" and Scott.
Andy Gale
Yes, but did you buy one?
Come on, get with it! You just gotta have a Monkey Boy T-shirt!
Anyone who is someone is wearing them! ;^)
Andy "bought two" Gale
Rex Pieper
>Yes, but did you buy one?
>
>Come on, get with it! You just gotta have a Monkey Boy T-shirt!
>Anyone who is someone is wearing them! ;^)
>
>Andy "bought two" Gale
Bought 2, gave one as a gift, but alas my own somehow got bleach
spotted in the wash (yeah I was doing the laundry again like a good (bad?)
husband) so I might have to get another...either that or just beat the
hell out of mine on many an adventure this summer. Guess we'll see
how the poker game goes tonite...c'mon Lady Luck, Daddy needs a new
T-shirt.
Buy a T-shirt and send these guys off to become polar bear food!
-Rex Pieper
p.s. Added benefit of wearing said T's is you can pose as an Expedition
member and thus get chicks without any arctic slavery...cool huh?
remove ".XSPAM" from signature to reply
Clyde Soles
> Buy a T-shirt and send these guys off to become polar bear food!
Poor bears. Isn't feeding toxic waste to animals illegal? But yes,
everybody should buy several...to help clean up Boulder ;-)
--
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this post is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of my employer.
Eric D. Coomer
And yes, I keep coming back to DMT's post of processed highly
preserved food when I think of what a tasty snack I'd make. I'm
thinking I won't need embalming if there's anything left...
And besides, I'm still in white-trash-hell Broomfield. I don't bother
much with that hippie haven that is Boulder except to work.
Cheers
Eric
Clyde Soles <cso...@rmi.net> wrote in message
news:1e8mnjf.iuknbec7vh8xN%cso...@rmi.net...
GeoffCJ
>member and thus get chicks without any arctic slavery...cool huh?
>
Cool, I became a Reverand off an internet site, now I can be a Expedition
member off rec.climbing....
Ok...SO if I postdate a check, will you guys wait to cash it?
Geoff "$1.80 Gas is KILLING me"
David Kreindler
>
> David Kreindler wrote:
>
> >wire-gate biners allow for stronger open-gate
> >strength because, for a given biner weight, more metal can be devoted to
> >the back of the biner instead of to the gate
>
> of the body and is independent of the gate, hinge, or nose of the biner.
Chris, I think you misunderstood my statement. What I said was that a
lighter gate would allow the biner's designer to make the rest of the
biner heavier, which would result in a stronger biner of the same total
weight. Is that not true?
Chris Harmston
>Chris Harmston wrote:
>>
>> David Kreindler wrote:
>>
>> >wire-gate biners allow for stronger open-gate
>> >strength because, for a given biner weight, more metal can be devoted to
>> >the back of the biner instead of to the gate
>>
>> Open gate strength is a function of the geometry
>> of the body and is independent of the gate, hinge, or nose of the biner.
>
>Chris, I think you misunderstood my statement. What I said was that a
>lighter gate would allow the biner's designer to make the rest of the
>biner heavier, which would result in a stronger biner of the same total
>weight. Is that not true?
Yes, this is correct. However, a major design goal is to reduce weight
whenever possible. Chris
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>David Kreindler <ddd.hat...@well.com>
> remove '.hates.spam' to reply
>
>
Chris Harmston (chr...@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer ME-MSE
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. www.BlackDiamondEquipment.com
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
Art Mora
they are a lot easier to clip than any of the conventional gate biners
i have used(from bluewater, and black diamond mostly)i can really tell
the difference specially when i clip on the rope,and if that wasn`t
enough there is the weight advantage, i wouldn't consider going back to
conventional gates on my quickdraws or longdraws, i also like the way
they look (omegalites)and how they seem to hang straight in any
situation.
Art
Brutus of Wyde
maohai huangwrote:
> are you saying that the nose hook often is what prevents your set of
> stoppers auto-unclipping from adjacent carabiners? That sounds
> uncomfortable. Aslo, about the "auto-clipping" part, do you mean small
> wires caught between the gate wires? Or I missed something ?
no, yes, yes and no, probably.
asolo extremes give me blisters
b
Brutus of Wyde
> buy a goddamn shirt would ya'! :)
Okay, okay. Where do I send the check, n' how much?
(too lazy to put together the Boolean search parameters
this morning...:)
bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu
In article <38E89102...@well.com>,
David Kreindler <ddd.hat...@well.com> wrote:
>David Kreindler wrote:
>>
>> kris wrote:
>> >
>> > hi all,
>> > i'm looking to buy a set of quickdraws and have read that wiregates are as
>> > strong or stronger than conventional gates, easier to clip, etc.
>> > what are your views on this?
>> > what's the dif between both?
>> > wires on both sides of the draw or mixed?
>> > what are a good set to get?
>> > anyone with any experience with the omegalite 4.0 draw set?
>> >
>> > thanx all,
>> >
>> > kris
>>
>> I can think of only two reasons not to use a wire gate biner:
>> 1. you want a locking biner;
>> 2. you want a key-lock biner to reduce snagging.
>>
>> If somebody comes up with a key-lock wire-gate biner, reason #2 will go
>> away.
>
>If somebody comes up with a locking wire-gate biner, reason #1 will go
>away.
- - I sent my half-assed ramblings about how to do this to Black
Diamond a couple weeks ago. I'm no ME, but I thought it'd be pretty
easy to make a "semi-locking" biner, by putting a slider on the
wires that would "click" onto the end. This wouldn't be as beefy
as a screw-locking gate, but would alleviate some of the whiplash
problems.
- - Booker C. Bense
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Bulletproof (+)
I don't really like regular biners that have been retrofitted to get a wire
gate, like:
Omegalite
BD Quickwire
The hook on the BD Hotwire & Livewire are designed for the wire, not for a
regular gate pin.
--
Luc
The world isn't flat, thank God
http://tripod.luc_m.com/
Art Mora <ar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8cmgce$g9n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...