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The Secrets of Crack Climbing

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Dingus Milktoast

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Nov 1, 2001, 11:56:57 AM11/1/01
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So what are they? What once piece of advice (or theme) would
you offer aspiring crack climbers?

Here's mine:

Yosemite: I see a lot of crack neophytes making a
fundamental mistake in their approach to climbing Yosemite
moderates. It concerns the use of the hands for upward
progress.

The classic image of a crack climber is some honed babe
reaching way high, locking some fingers or the back of her
hand in a crack and then cranking like a disease, biceps
bulging as she moves up the crack. That's the image...

The reality is that the hands should not be used all that
much for upward progress. Or rather, the use of the hands
for upward progress should be minimized as much as possible.
The same holds true for face climbing, but it's easier to
see there.

Our crack newbie comes to climb a line. The typical sequence
is to reach as high as possible, lock off (or something that
approximates a lockoff), then paw the feet up as high as
possible too, then fight to strenuously stand up, and wobbly
slap the other hand even higher. By stretching and reaching
like that, the leader is assuring herself of staying
continuously out of balance. By reaching too high, she leans
too close to the rock. This makes moving the feet up hard
and strenuous. It leaves the leader feeling insecure and
gripped.

OK, that's an image of poor crack climbing technique. What
would I offer to improve the picture? Here goes...

A simple adjustment of the mind can do wonders. And relaxing
the mind can do more. Cause crack climbing (all climbing in
my opinion, but we're talking crack just now) requires
relaxation.

Instead of reaching as high as possible, purposely look for
jams a foot lower, so the elbow is still bent once the jam
is discovered. Get a good jam, fiddle with it if you must,
and then once again purposely, back off on the lock pressure
until it feels as though the jam may slip if you let off
more.

Now walk the feet up the crack. Not huge, giant steps that
require a lot of hand pressure from which to stand. Smaller
steps, a foot at a time for example, and walk up, without
moving the hands. You walk as high as possible, stand in
balance, and then reach higher and repeat.

The other key to this, and the key to the Yosemite crack
candy store, is proper foot work. Too exhaustive a subject
for me to broach extensively, but the single most common
mistake I see is people just kicking or slapping their feet
into a fissure without regard to the best possibilities for
jamming.

Here's the secret... the more secure your feet are, the less
you will rely upon your hands for upward progress. The less
you rely upon your hands for upward progress, the better.

The same holds true for most foot jamming possibilities...
but is required for thin to hand sized cracks. Don't put
your foot in when oriented horizontally. Nope. Bend your
knee outward at right angles, so that your foot is rotated
into a vertical orientation. Now insert the foot (or toe)
into the crack, big toe up, little toe down. Feel around for
the most secure position. Then rotate the knee back in line
with your body. That rotation serves to lock the foot jam
into place. You can actually feel it lock down. When done
properly, you will quickly realize that your feet can give
you more secure locking power than even your hands.

Knowing your feet won't slip allows you to relax your hands
even more. It's a feedback loop in the classic sense. And of
course, as you move up the grades, you rely on your hands
more and more. Yet mastering the basics of proper footwork
at the lower grades enables the same feet to be used to
their best advantage once the going really gets tough.

Mentally, instead of thinking about cranking, or perfect
form, think "easy." The idea, unless you're a poser, is to
make the climbing look easy. The classic nasty Yosemite
flares for instance, are notorious for causing newbie
anxiety. And yet once you learn such techniques as hip scums
and what I label 90 degree toe jams (toe jams in blank
corners and the backs of flares), of properly using the
shoulders, of how to use leg and calf bars to totally take
the weight off your arms, once you start thinking of your
feet first and your hands second. you'll float these things
too. They really are moderate once you make the mental leap
to focus, and I mean really focus, on the feet.

Last note: my experience has been that gym crack simulations
are not very useful for practicing this type of movement.
Most of the gym cracks I've seen are very steep and
typically try to cram every known type of constriction into
the space of a 20 or 30 foot crack. You can't often get your
feet into them properly so you climb mostly on your hands. A
person can get quite strong at this very quickly. But when
he comes out of the gym and gets on a crack where the angle
is 90 or less and the jams are totally flaring and
insecure... well, let's just say his training sets him up
with the wrong tools and the wrong mindset.

You climb with your feet, not your hands. Your feet give you
balance and security. Say it over and over and just like
with Dorothy going back to Kansas, it will come true.

Whaddaya think? Am I blowing smoke, or what?

DMT

David Kastrup

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Nov 1, 2001, 12:17:40 PM11/1/01
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Dingus> So what are they? What once piece of advice (or theme) would
Dingus> you offer aspiring crack climbers?

Dingus> Here's mine:

[...]

Dingus> You climb with your feet, not your hands.

That's the whole point, all of the above is sugar on top of that.

Dingus> Your feet give you balance and security.

And it is in *that* area that the hands will provide what the feet are
lacking. Of course, in overhanging terrain completing the "balance"
is quite a job in itself. And there are those moves where the feet
can't be placed any higher.

But the basic rule, as you said, is to climb with your feet.

--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David....@t-online.de

David C

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Nov 1, 2001, 12:30:15 PM11/1/01
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I'm new to climbing, and I think I need to build up my foot strength more
as I cramp up when I'm relying on my feet in roofs.

Are there any specific exercises I can do to help this?

TIA


"David Kastrup" <David....@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:x5wv1a2...@tupik.goethe.zz...

David Kastrup

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Nov 1, 2001, 12:40:31 PM11/1/01
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>>>>> "David" == David C <hot...@spamhotmail.com> writes:

David> I'm new to climbing, and I think I need to build up my foot
David> strength more as I cramp up when I'm relying on my feet in
David> roofs.

David> Are there any specific exercises I can do to help this?

Tip toe and edge on beer crates. For increased effects, retain your
balance while you are emptying them.

Jerri

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Nov 1, 2001, 12:48:19 PM11/1/01
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"David C" <hot...@spamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HEfE7.17189$4x3.1...@news1.cableinet.net...

> I'm new to climbing, and I think I need to build up my foot strength more
> as I cramp up when I'm relying on my feet in roofs.
>
> Are there any specific exercises I can do to help this?
>
David,

I have taught ballet for about five years, and I taught several different
methods to increase my students' foot strength. One of the best methods is
to acquire a physical therapy device called a theraband. It basically looks
like a giant rubber band and comes in various strengths--indicated by color.
You would then take the band and put across the ball of your foot. Flexing
and extending (pointing in ballet terminology) the foot will work the
muscles in the arch of the foot.

Another exercise that does not require apparatus is called a "releve" in
ballet and consists of similar movements as mentioned above. You would
stand with your feet parallel and begin to lift your heels until your weight
rests solely on the balls of the feet, lower, and repeat. Then try doing
the exercise on one foot then the other. It is also a great calf burner.

You could always take up ballet. How does standing on your toes sound?

Hope that helps.

Jerri

Chris Kantarjiev

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Nov 1, 2001, 1:05:09 PM11/1/01
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Well, sure ... you make it sound easy.

You've left out the secret part about ignoring the pain in your feet, I
think :-)

I'm no crackmeister - I can't yet get myself up a 15 foot vertical
"pure" crack with any reliability - and it's pretty much entirely
because my footwork sucks, or my feet are too big to get into the crack
far enough to avoid pain during the jam. The secret I'm slowly learning
is to swing my hips while moving up - if my left hand is in the jam, I
*usually* have my left foot in, as well, swing my hips to the left of
the crack. This improves the left hand jam. Sometimes, to emphasize this
while practicing, I completely remove the right foot from the crack and
"shake it out". Now, I place the right foot in as you describe, reach up
with the right hand, and try to move up on the foot and swing my hips to
the right at the same time.

(The Loughman "Learning to Rock Climb" book has some really good photos
of this process.)

At the moment, this all requires a lot of thought on my part, so I end
up failing because it's slow and I lack the right kind of endurance. My
goal/hope is that the more I practice, the more it will turn into an
engram and speed will come...

But for now, I look for cracks that have decent footholds outside the
crack.

chris

Dave Hill

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:45:51 PM11/1/01
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All true and valid for CA slabby cracks. I love 'em.

On my first trip to the New River Gorge, however, I got schooled on STEEP
cracks. Whereas I was totally honed on off-vertical and glassy smooth Yos
cracks, I sucked on the steep stuff. Still do. :)

Dave.


Greg Sadowy

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Nov 1, 2001, 1:10:11 PM11/1/01
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Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
> So what are they? What once piece of advice (or theme) would
> you offer aspiring crack climbers?
>
> Here's mine:

<Tons of good advice deleted>

> Whaddaya think? Am I blowing smoke, or what?

Definitely not. I am certainly not an expert crack climber, but I can
speak from the perspective of a newbie who was regularly spanked by
crack. I recently spent a week in the Valley trying to locate some clue
WRT crack climbing so the learning experience is fresh in my mind. All
your advice is good.

I will summarize the things that I learned (most of which Dingus already
covered with greater eloquence):

- Feet, feet, feet, feet! Climb with your feet, dammit! You knew that
already, didn't you? Well, it applies to cracks just like any other kind
of climbing.

- Use the crack for your feet. I know you can stand on dime-sized edges.
Very good. Too bad there aren't any. Like Dingus says, cant your foot,
insert it and swing your shin back into to the plumb line to lock it.
The last part is very important. This works even for finger cracks where
you can't get your toe in; you can still get a useful rand smear.

- Use your eyes and brain! You knew that already, didn't you? Learn all
the various hand positions and learn to recognize them quickly. Once
you've got your jam, lock it in (not too hard) and don't move it.

- Don't rotate your hands! You wouldn't twist your feet while standing
on that dime-sized edge would you? No! Once you've stuck a jam, don'
move it. You can prevent rotation of your hands by:
* Not reaching too far. The further you reach, the more you'll tend
to rotate.
* Insert your hands with the edge of your hand horizontal and
keeping it that way by adjusting the angle of your wrist as
you climb by.

- Protect your hands. Learn to tape or use hand jammies. People will say
that you are cheating or that this rewards bad technique. Ignore them.
The sad fact is that all you have is bad technique and your hands will
be wrecked after one day. Not very good for your road trip. When your
technique improves so that your jams rarely slip, then you can go bare.

and just for emphasis:

DMT sez:
> You climb with your feet, not your hands. Your feet give you
> balance and security. Say it over and over and just like
> with Dorothy going back to Kansas, it will come true.

Thanks for the good advice, Dingus!

Good luck to all you aspiring crack heads out there!

-Greg

Julie

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Nov 1, 2001, 2:23:36 PM11/1/01
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Dingus Milktoast wrote:

> Last note: my experience has been that gym crack simulations
> are not very useful for practicing this type of movement.

I was so hoping my gym's "new crack wall" would be useful, because I'm
as bad on cracks as any self-respecting Gunks face climber. Alas,
beyond the caveats you mentioned, our cracks overhang roughly 5 feet
in 30. Kinda makes it a bit harder to get your weight on your feet.
What a waste.

In the few crack moves I've managed to eke out, I've also found that
flagging my non-jammed foot can be pretty helpful in terms of balance.

JSH

Olga Chotinun

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Nov 1, 2001, 3:17:33 PM11/1/01
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Dingus Milktoast wrote:

...
Lots of excellent advice :)

few comments:
...

> Instead of reaching as high as possible, purposely look for
> jams a foot lower, so the elbow is still bent once the jam
> is discovered. Get a good jam, fiddle with it if you must,
> and then once again purposely, back off on the lock pressure
> until it feels as though the jam may slip if you let off
> more.

...

This all works very well when the angle is low, but as the crack
gets steeper I feel like I need to get a hand jam in FAST, or I will
fall out no matter how secure the foot is. When having no technique
it's pretty easy to climb a low angle crack (like After 7 for example)
because you have time to make good hand jams and foot jams, on steeper
stuff, one needs to act fast, this is why it would be very useful to
have a less vertical 5.7 cracks at the gym to learn to jam on before
doing the steep ones.

> Last note: my experience has been that gym crack simulations
> are not very useful for practicing this type of movement.
> Most of the gym cracks I've seen are very steep and
> typically try to cram every known type of constriction into
> the space of a 20 or 30 foot crack. You can't often get your
> feet into them properly so you climb mostly on your hands. A
> person can get quite strong at this very quickly. But when
> he comes out of the gym and gets on a crack where the angle
> is 90 or less and the jams are totally flaring and
> insecure... well, let's just say his training sets him up
> with the wrong tools and the wrong mindset.
>

...

he-he ;-) You old-timers would really like to believe this, wouldn't you?
Yeah, right, live in your dream world where the gym trained less adventurous
climbers who wouldn't get into the sport had there not been climbing gyms
don't become good enough to lead the old school climbs.

In my experience I know at least 5 people who trained and trained for months
on gym cracks w/o going outside at all, and had no problems whatsoever coming
out and leading moderate Yosemite classics. In fact, the main reason my crack
technique sucks compare to many others I climb with is mostly because I am
too lazy to go to the gym 2-3 times a week and work on those cracks. In many
cases
I have followed many more crack pitches outdoors.

Even my hubby who is more of your mind set admits now that some of these
"trained
in gym" crack climbers kick his ass on cracks and offwidths.
Yes, it is possible, (and I have seen it happen) for a person to totally train
themselves on gym cracks, take a lead class and then come out and lead 5.8

Yes sure following a lot of pitches is very useful, etc. etc
but not everyone has the luxury of more experienced mentors, and 5.10 face
climbers
will usually find a way to climb a 5.7-5.8 cracks using 5.10 face moves.
yes, there are few climbs which are not like that, but many are.

Olga

PS: nope, I did not start climbing at the gym. Some of my friends who did kick
my butt.

greg mushial

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Nov 1, 2001, 3:26:01 PM11/1/01
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On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 08:56:57 -0800, Dingus Milktoast
<crha...@midtown.net> wrote:

>
>Whaddaya think? Am I blowing smoke, or what?
>
>DMT
>

Spot on ... forced myself to learn how to use my feet, by climbing
lots of stuff one handed (sometimes left, sometimes right) - if you're
going to get anywhere with one hand, then you *have* to climb with
your feet.

greg mushial

bill folk

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Nov 1, 2001, 3:45:04 PM11/1/01
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"Olga Chotinun" <ol...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3BE1ADA2...@earthlink.net...
>

> In my experience I know at least 5 people who trained and trained for
months
> on gym cracks w/o going outside at all, and had no problems whatsoever
coming
> out and leading moderate Yosemite classics. In fact, the main reason my
crack
> technique sucks compare to many others I climb with is mostly because I am
> too lazy to go to the gym 2-3 times a week and work on those cracks. In
many
> cases
> I have followed many more crack pitches outdoors.
>
> Even my hubby who is more of your mind set admits now that some of these
> "trained
> in gym" crack climbers kick his ass on cracks and offwidths.
> Yes, it is possible, (and I have seen it happen) for a person to totally
train
> themselves on gym cracks, take a lead class and then come out and lead 5.8
>
> Yes sure following a lot of pitches is very useful, etc. etc
> but not everyone has the luxury of more experienced mentors, and 5.10 face
> climbers
> will usually find a way to climb a 5.7-5.8 cracks using 5.10 face moves.
> yes, there are few climbs which are not like that, but many are.
>

I climbed with two 5.12 gym climbers of several years experience who do laps
on gym cracks, who backed off of leads on West Country and South Crack, 5.7
and 5.8 respectively, but it was all mental. Does anyone else find the idea
that someone would need to train in the gym for months, 2-3 times a week, in
order to lead 5.7-8 cracks just a little ridiculous? Spend next week in the
valley and you'll be leading 5.8 by Thursday, maybe Friday if you're a slow
learner. It ain't that hard.

Bill


themadco

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Nov 1, 2001, 3:08:34 PM11/1/01
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I cant beleive some one else owns that book. This is the original climbing
technique book. One of the few books Ive seen that starts with form as basic
instruction to climbing instead of gear. Of course when published there were
only a limited amount of gear junkies. Plus the climbing babe is like a mix
between Daisy Duke and Laura Ingle, something my adolescent side finds
pretty hot.
Ron
"Chris Kantarjiev" <c...@putzl.com> wrote in message
news:3BE18ED5...@putzl.com...

Andy Gale

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:12:57 PM11/1/01
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Olga Chotinun wrote:


> he-he ;-) You old-timers would really like to believe this, wouldn't you?
> Yeah, right, live in your dream world where the gym trained less adventurous
> climbers who wouldn't get into the sport had there not been climbing gyms
> don't become good enough to lead the old school climbs.
>
> In my experience I know at least 5 people who trained and trained for months
> on gym cracks w/o going outside at all, and had no problems whatsoever coming
> out and leading moderate Yosemite classics. In fact, the main reason my crack
> technique sucks compare to many others I climb with is mostly because I am
> too lazy to go to the gym 2-3 times a week and work on those cracks. In many
> cases
> I have followed many more crack pitches outdoors.


Months and months of practicing gym cracks in order to lead 5.8 crack!!!
Give me a break. That is pathetic. I am not impressed.


Andy


Nate

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:30:01 PM11/1/01
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themadco wrote:

>This is the original climbing
>technique book. One of the few books Ive seen that starts with form as
basic
>instruction to climbing instead of gear.

I concur. The subelties of how he describes overcoming climbing's
difficulties through experience and learning over time are completely lost
in subsequent books - a sad statement of today's climber's, IMO.

The new school is to train smarter by eating herbs and doing yoga, then buy
some cool stuff and force your way through the difficulties.

> Of course when published there were
>only a limited amount of gear junkies.

The hip belay pictures along with him forsaking belay devices as extra gear
are classic.

> Plus the climbing babe is like a mix
>between Daisy Duke and Laura Ingle, something my adolescent side finds
>pretty hot.

...agreed, but my pages aren't stuck together...

- Nate

**********
>"Chris Kantarjiev"

Kevin Corcoran

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:49:11 PM11/1/01
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> Spot on ... forced myself to learn how to use my feet, by climbing
> lots of stuff one handed (sometimes left, sometimes right)

Greg, can you please expand on this technique.


Kevin Corcoran

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:49:46 PM11/1/01
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Great post. Thanks.

jason liebgott

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:49:54 PM11/1/01
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greg says...

> - Protect your hands. Learn to tape or use hand jammies. People will say
> that you are cheating or that this rewards bad technique. Ignore them.
> The sad fact is that all you have is bad technique and your hands will
> be wrecked after one day. Not very good for your road trip. When your
> technique improves so that your jams rarely slip, then you can go bare.

I don't think there's anything cheating about tape - but this last season I
started leaving my tape gloves behind on occasion. The cracks in tuolumne
that I did were fine to go tapeless, in fact I found it felt much better and
I never had much more than a few very minor cuts. As an added benefit, the
thin cracks took my hands easier without the bulk of tape. another benefit,
you can use belay gloves... something I've started thinking about to avoid
rope burn on a leader fall.

The catch is no thrutching. With glove on, thrash youself crazy... no glove,
set that jam carefully.

I think that if you feel somewhat good about your technique - try leaving
the tape behind.

jason

j...@ti.com

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Nov 1, 2001, 4:52:52 PM11/1/01
to Dingus Milktoast
Dingus, thanks - now for the hard part, doing what I'm told :)

John "Doc" Holladay

Travis C. Brooks

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:05:17 PM11/1/01
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Olga Chotinun wrote:

> Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
> ...
> Lots of excellent advice :)
>

No kidding. I feel much happier about my crack technique recently, and
the lessons Dingus mentions are the ones I learned, though I didn't learn
them all, or as well as he put them.

>
> In my experience I know at least 5 people who trained and trained for months
> on gym cracks w/o going outside at all, and had no problems whatsoever coming
> out and leading moderate Yosemite classics.

Well, Olga, I gotta say, PG has pretty good cracks. Ok, they aren't less
than vertical, but they aren't overhanging either. They also have pretty
consistent widths, and not too many distractions. I haven't been to that
many other gyms, but we have it better than a few, for sure. I have spent
a fair bit of time on the cracks in the gym, but so far the granite
moderates have been better teachers, but not by much. A hell of a lot more
fun to boot (of course we all knew that.)

Later
Travis


j...@ti.com

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:06:36 PM11/1/01
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I wonder about the whole 'cheating' thing. I guess it depends on why one
climbs. I figure it is my climb and I'll do it my way (safely for me, those
around me, and the environment). If on occasion I have to grab the rope, use
tape, bit the rock, do a head jam :), etc - heck big deal. I climb for me and
for no one else and certainly not to brag about it.

JNH

jason liebgott wrote:

> snip

j...@ti.com

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:11:20 PM11/1/01
to
I wonder about the whole 'cheating' thing. I guess it depends on why one
climbs. I figure it is my climb and I'll do it my way (safely for me, those
around me, and the environment). If on occasion I have to grab the rope, use
tape, bit the rock, do a head jam :), etc - heck big deal. I climb for me and
for no one else and certainly not to brag about it.

JNH

jason liebgott wrote:

> snip
>

j...@ti.com

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 5:11:33 PM11/1/01
to
I wonder about the whole 'cheating' thing. I guess it depends on why one
climbs. I figure it is my climb and I'll do it my way (safely for me, those
around me, and the environment). If on occasion I have to grab the rope, use
tape, bit the rock, do a head jam :), etc - heck big deal. I climb for me and
for no one else and certainly not to brag about it.

JNH

jason liebgott wrote:

> snip
>

D a v i d E m r i c h

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:37:03 PM11/1/01
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"Travis C. Brooks" <tra...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.33.01110...@flora04.SLAC.Stanford.EDU...

>
> Well, Olga, I gotta say, PG has pretty good cracks. Ok, they aren't less
> than vertical, but they aren't overhanging either. They also have pretty
> consistent widths, and not too many distractions. I haven't been to that
> many other gyms, but we have it better than a few, for sure. I have spent
> a fair bit of time on the cracks in the gym, but so far the granite
> moderates have been better teachers, but not by much.

I've only been to PG a few times, and not for several months, but I remember
the vert off-width hands crack there being beyond moderate. I think my best was
1 fall. If I had freed it, maybe I'd call it moderate (or easy as in "you mean you
can't do that easy crack"). Like other gym offwidths, wide, but not deep,
hard to use the knee (my knees never jam well in offwidths anyway - too little
range), arm bar, etc. When I've come across offwidth sections on outdoor
moderates, it was always easier.

With the variety of cracks at PG (including the roof crack in the bouldering area),
I'd expect someone who worked on them regularly to have no problem with outdoor
moderates. They're harder than many of the popular Yosemite & JT moderates
anyway (including Serenity Crack, Jam Crack, Bishop's Terrace, Nutcracker,
Doublecross, and Sail Away). Do people really find that the indoor cracks don't
translate to climbing outside? Or is it just a metter of boldness?

David

Greg Sadowy

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:13:44 PM11/1/01
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--
jason liebgott wrote:
>
>
> The catch is no thrutching. With glove on, thrash youself crazy... no glove,
> set that jam carefully.
>
> I think that if you feel somewhat good about your technique - try leaving
> the tape behind.
>

I agree. I hope to leave the tape behind at some point. Still thrutchin'
though...


-Greg

Greg Sadowy

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:35:58 PM11/1/01
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Olga Chotinun wrote:
>
> This all works very well when the angle is low, but as the crack
> gets steeper I feel like I need to get a hand jam in FAST, or I will
> fall out no matter how secure the foot is.

If your feet are good, you should not have to move very fast. You can't
bumble about forever, but you don't have to sink it on the first try.

> When having no technique
> it's pretty easy to climb a low angle crack (like After 7 for example)
> because you have time to make good hand jams and foot jams, on steeper
> stuff, one needs to act fast, this is why it would be very useful to
> have a less vertical 5.7 cracks at the gym to learn to jam on before
> doing the steep ones.

I've never climbed a crack at a gym, but I can't believe this is very
efficient way to learn. After you figured out all the jams, you wouldn't
really learn much. Plus, it sounds really boring. You need to go and
climb different cracks. Variety is essential. Unless you have a serious
grudge, don't bother repeating any, just move on!

> In my experience I know at least 5 people who trained and trained for months
> on gym cracks w/o going outside at all,

Sounds like a serious waste of time.

> In fact, the main reason my crack
> technique sucks compare to many others I climb with is mostly because I am
> too lazy to go to the gym 2-3 times a week and work on those cracks. In many
> cases I have followed many more crack pitches outdoors.

I can't say why your crack technique sucks but I'll bet it sucks for the
same reason mine does: I don't climb enough cracks. It's not because I'm
out of shape (I am) or I don't climb gym cracks several times per week
(I don't), but because I don't climb enough real cracks. However, I do
know that after a week in The Valley, my technique sucked a whole lot
less.

> Even my hubby who is more of your mind set admits now that some of these
> "trained in gym" crack climbers kick his ass on cracks and offwidths.
> Yes, it is possible, (and I have seen it happen) for a person to totally train
> themselves on gym cracks, take a lead class and then come out and lead 5.8

They had better, after training 2-3 times per week for six months!

> Yes sure following a lot of pitches is very useful, etc. etc

It sure is. It's hard to learn new techniques when you are gripped on
lead.

> but not everyone has the luxury of more experienced mentors,

You can top rope climbs that you won't lead. While you can't (easily)
top-rope them all, there are many choices. Also, if you can afford
frequent visits to the gym you can also afford to hire a guide
occasionally. Buying people beer and begging them to be your rope gun
sometimes works. There are some nice people out there that might take
pity on aspiring crackers.

> and 5.10 face climbers will usually find a way to climb a 5.7-5.8 cracks
> using 5.10 face moves.

Just say no to face! If you are just trying to get up, do it however you
please, but if you want to learn crack technique USE THE CRACK! Also, no
unnecessary laybacks (my crutch). Laybacking has it's place but it
doesn't help you learn to jam.

Greg, "We're jammin', We're jammin', and I hope you like jammin' too!"

Melissa

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 3:34:00 PM11/1/01
to

> "Olga Chotinun" <ol...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3BE1ADA2...@earthlink.net...
> >
>
> > In my experience I know at least 5 people who trained and trained for
> months
> > on gym cracks w/o going outside at all, and had no problems whatsoever
> coming
> > out and leading moderate Yosemite classics.

I agree with you, Olga. I'm one of those people. I learned to climb cracks in
the gym, and started climbing them outdoors at nearly the same grade as
indoors. My face climbing is still lagging by about 4 number grades. I'm
strong like an ox with awful foot technique...True, the gym doesn't translate
to the outdoors very well for any kind of climbing. But I think that cracks
translate better than face stuff since the feet are at least more similar
whereas on face climbs outdoors you rarely have a hold at every move.

...

> bill folk wrote


>
> I climbed with two 5.12 gym climbers of several years experience who do laps
> on gym cracks, who backed off of leads on West Country and South Crack, 5.7
> and 5.8 respectively, but it was all mental. Does anyone else find the idea
> that someone would need to train in the gym for months, 2-3 times a week, in
> order to lead 5.7-8 cracks just a little ridiculous? Spend next week in the
> valley and you'll be leading 5.8 by Thursday, maybe Friday if you're a slow
> learner. It ain't that hard.

Then I must be crack retarded. Ain't that hard for you, perhaps, but the body
can't go if the mind ain't willing. It took me quite a few months of leading
to get on a 5.8 crack. I've been working on cracks for about 6 months, and I'd
say I'm still only really solid leading to 5.8...and that's just hands, fists,
and fingers. OW or chimney...forget it.

Melissa

Melissa

>
>
> Bill

Melissa

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 3:57:07 PM11/1/01
to

Dingus Milktoast wrote:

> ...lots of good stuff...

Thanks! I've been combing the archives looking for this sort of info
lately.

Melissa, trying to become a crack climber

Melissa

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 3:54:56 PM11/1/01
to

Andy Gale wrote:

I don't see where Olga specified 5.8? I think I know most of the people that
she's taliking about, and many of them more or less jumped right onto 5.9 or 5.10
cracks, even if they (we?) are not solid at those grades.

But as I said before...I've been working on it in the gym for months, I'm still
only solid to 5.8. If you think that's pathetic, I can live with it. I'm working
on cracks indoors and out because I like it, not because I give a hoot about
impressing you or anyone but myself with my lead grade.

Melissa

David Kastrup

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 6:10:54 PM11/1/01
to
>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Sadowy <gre...@x.cliffhanger.y.com.z> writes:

Greg> I've never climbed a crack at a gym, but I can't believe
Greg> this is very efficient way to learn.

It's not the real thing. Outside, crack climbing usually is about the
worst contorted, filthy, awkward, abrasing, whole body experience
imaginable. Something that occasionally you won't mind subjecting
yourself to, just for the heck of it. Why does this sound like I am
talking about sex again?

Nate

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 6:20:13 PM11/1/01
to

David Kastrup wrote in message ...

>It's not the real thing. Outside, crack climbing usually is about the
>worst contorted, filthy, awkward, abrasing, whole body experience
>imaginable. Something that occasionally you won't mind subjecting
>yourself to, just for the heck of it. Why does this sound like I am
>talking about sex again?

Just depends how you go about these things, David.

The fact that it's around midnight in your area, and you're here on
rec.climbing, clearly indicates to me the lack of "friction" in your life.

- Nate

David Kastrup

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 6:26:36 PM11/1/01
to
>>>>> "Nate" == Nate <na...@nospam.com> writes:

Nate> David Kastrup wrote in message ...

>> It's not the real thing. Outside, crack climbing usually is
>> about the worst contorted, filthy, awkward, abrasing, whole
>> body experience imaginable. Something that occasionally you
>> won't mind subjecting yourself to, just for the heck of it.
>> Why does this sound like I am talking about sex again?

Nate> Just depends how you go about these things, David.

Nate> The fact that it's around midnight in your area, and you're
Nate> here on rec.climbing, clearly indicates to me the lack of
Nate> "friction" in your life.

Not everybody has friction readily accessible every day... but the
next two days may provide compensation for today's lack of either, the
weather permitting.

jason liebgott

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 6:36:20 PM11/1/01
to

Are you the Melissa that works at Iron Works?? If so, nice meeting you.

j.


Steelmnkey

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 6:37:56 PM11/1/01
to
>"jason liebgott" jlie...@hotmail.com
>
>The catch is no thrutching. With glove on, thrash youself crazy... no glove,
>set that jam carefully.
>
>I think that if you feel somewhat good about your technique - try leaving
>the tape behind.

I used to have Dr. Offwidth around here to back me up on this one, but I have
never been able to go tapeless regardless of care I exercise in hanging off of
jams. Something about hanging 200+ lbs. off a jam reduces the back of my hand
to hamburger. Maybe I have sensitive hand backs, but I preferred the use of
tape (and mitts the last few years to save on trash) to the big pressure gobies
I was taking back to work with me every monday morning. We won't even go into
the wisdom of bare-handed jamming in desert granite.

G.

Chris Kantarjiev

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 6:59:03 PM11/1/01
to
Last weekend at JTree, I did both protected and unprotected jamming -
that is, I used hand jammies part of the time, and went bareback the
rest. Like I said, I'm a crack novice, so I've been using the hand
jammies to protect me from my bad technique.

The downside of the hand jammies is that I've got big mitts already -
the jammies turn "perfect hands" for some into fingerlocks for me. So
the hardest cracks I did (hard = 8+!) were done barehanded.

Hurt a lot, but I was able to get deep into cracks for solid jams that I
wouldn't have been able to do with the jammies on. In fact, I got what
I'm sure was my first-ever thumbs-under sinker jam ... without jammies.

No gobies, either. Lots and lots and lots and lots of redness (mostly
gone now) and a few small scabs...

My tips, now, they're another matter. My fingerprints may never be the
same.

chris
--
Don't just sit there reading news: get active!
http://www.earthjustice.org/join/ http://www.yosemitevalley.org
http://www.heifer.org

Melissa

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 5:04:45 PM11/1/01
to
>

Greg Sadowy wrote

> I've never climbed a crack at a gym, but I can't believe this is very
> efficient way to learn. After you figured out all the jams, you wouldn't
> really learn much.

Did anyone else have a quantum leap in crack climbing ability from where the jams
didn't make sense and no progress happened w/out face holds to having the jams just
start working to the point that vertical 5.8 hand cracks aren't too bad?

I've found the gym crack useful for learning the jamming techniques in the first
place and then for working on climbing more effeciently, i.e. using my feet to push
myself up, not overcamming my hands, etc. Having the sequences wired actually
makes it easier to concentrate on these fine points. It beats the mid-week
alternative for crack training as well (sitting on my butt reading usenet).

Melissa


x15x15

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 7:25:37 PM11/1/01
to

"Dingus Milktoast


> You climb with your feet, not your hands. Your feet give you
> balance and security. Say it over and over and just like
> with Dorothy going back to Kansas, it will come true.

You know it. Cranked through the 11c part of Insomnia in Idyllwild with
ease. Ok, so I was shakey and could not stop to place gear until the crux
was over, but I did it no falls. Good rest and then just a short little ol
diagnaling 10 plus hand crack to finish it off. Problem was I kept on
whipping. Sure I was pumped, but dammit I should be able to do it. On like
the 5th try I decided to do what I teach, stick the freak'n foot in the
crack. Bingo, the pump no longer mattered and I finally led Insomnia.

x15x15


Andy Gale

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 8:10:09 PM11/1/01
to

Melissa wrote:

>
> Andy Gale wrote:
>
>
>>Olga Chotinun wrote:

>>>
>>Months and months of practicing gym cracks in order to lead 5.8 crack!!!
>>Give me a break. That is pathetic. I am not impressed.
>>
>>Andy
>>
>
> I don't see where Olga specified 5.8?


see below for quote from Olga that I previously deleted for brevities sake.

>Yes, it is possible, (and I have seen it happen) for a person to
>totally train
>themselves on gym cracks, take a lead class and then come out and lead
>5.8

I think I know most of the people that


> she's taliking about, and many of them more or less jumped right onto 5.9 or 5.10
> cracks, even if they (we?) are not solid at those grades.
>
> But as I said before...I've been working on it in the gym for months, I'm still
> only solid to 5.8. If you think that's pathetic, I can live with it. I'm working
> on cracks indoors and out because I like it, not because I give a hoot about
> impressing you or anyone but myself with my lead grade.


Sorry to insult you. My main opinion is that you would advance faster
if you were "practicing" on real cracks in the outdoors rather than gym
cracks. And therefore, putting forth those people (including you
apparently) as examples is not a convincing argument that crack climbing
in the gym is the way to learn how to lead crack.


Climbing in the gym is good for getting strong, good for sport climbing.
I have not been impressed with cracks that I have seen in the gym.
However, I have not been to your gym.


YMMV


Andy "off to the gym"


stinkwagen

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 8:12:00 PM11/1/01
to

"Chris Kantarjiev" <c...@putzl.com> wrote in message
news:3BE18ED5...@putzl.com...
> Well, sure ... you make it sound easy.
>
> You've left out the secret part about ignoring the pain in your feet, I
> think :-)
>
> I'm no crackmeister - I can't yet get myself up a 15 foot vertical
> "pure" crack with any reliability - and it's pretty much entirely
> because my footwork sucks, or my feet are too big to get into the crack
> far enough to avoid pain during the jam.

Practice at it more and it won't hurt so much. Really! I remember the
first couple of times trying a fist jam and thinking how painful it was. I
never thought I'd be able to hang my full weight on it. Well, after
practicing a lot, fist jams don't hurt at all. I don't know why, I just
know it happened. Same thing with the feet.

That said, sometimes you can get in a real painful jam. Some crystal just
digging in, right to the bone. Wiggle around a bit to relieve the pressure
point. Probably a good idea to practice on toprope since you won't want to
wiggle a solid jam around no matter how much damage it is doing to you if
you're a long ways above your last piece.

Maybe the reason foot jams cause you so much pain is that your shoes that
are too tight. Foot jams will be very painful if you have shoes so tight
that your toes are forced bent at the knuckles.


Here's another useful secret for crack climbing, besides, feet, feet, feet.
Try to keep your hands above you when pulling on the jams so you're pulling
along inside the crack, not pulling out of the crack. This can make a giant
difference on marginal jams.

Chuck


stinkwagen

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 8:16:48 PM11/1/01
to

"Melissa" <mmi...@itsa.ucsf.edu> wrote

>
> Did anyone else have a quantum leap in crack climbing ability from where
the jams
> didn't make sense and no progress happened w/out face holds to having the
jams just
> start working to the point that vertical 5.8 hand cracks aren't too bad?

Yes, that describes my experience perfectly.

Chuck


bill folk

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 8:15:45 PM11/1/01
to

"Melissa" <mmi...@itsa.ucsf.edu> wrote in message
news:3BE1B1B6...@itsa.ucsf.edu...

> the body
> can't go if the mind ain't willing.

Exactly.

Bill


Chas

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 9:51:54 PM11/1/01
to
"the original climbing technique book".
Not nearly.
Seems like our heritage is fading away... What about Royal Robbins' "Basic
Rockcraft" and "Advanced Rockcraft"?

> I cant beleive some one else owns that book. This is the original climbing
> technique book. One of the few books Ive seen that starts with form as
basic
> instruction to climbing instead of gear.


Melissa

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 8:21:17 PM11/1/01
to
Andy Gale wrote:

> >>Months and months of practicing gym cracks in order to lead 5.8 crack!!!
> >>Give me a break. That is pathetic. I am not impressed.

I wrote...

>
> > But as I said before...I've been working on it in the gym for months, I'm still
> > only solid to 5.8. If you think that's pathetic, I can live with it. I'm working
> > on cracks indoors and out because I like it, not because I give a hoot about
> > impressing you or anyone but myself with my lead grade.
>
> Sorry to insult you.

Not insulted. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in that if failing to cruise up 5.8
cracks makes one pathetic then I am proudly, happily pathetic (along with a substantial

fraction of the other rec.climbers.)

> My main opinion is that you would advance faster
> if you were "practicing" on real cracks in the outdoors rather than gym
> cracks.

I doubt anyone would say that outdoor cracks are not the ideal place to learn how to
climb
outdoor cracks. However, the Valley is a long way to go after work on Tues, whereas
Mission Cliffs or Planite Granite or whatever your favorite house of plastic may be are

much more practical options for working out some of the details of crack technique.

> I have not been impressed with cracks that I have seen in the gym.
> However, I have not been to your gym.

I doubt they are so much different than the cracks at your gym. Even if they were just
two pieces of wood with a space in between they'd give me something as opposed to
nothing to practice on midweek allowing me to figure out how different jams work in
between trips so that I can just get on routes and use them when I get some place more
scenic.

> YMMV
>
> Andy "off to the gym"

Have fun. I always do.

Melissa

Melissa

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 8:23:34 PM11/1/01
to

jason liebgott wrote:

> Are you the Melissa that works at Iron Works?? If so, nice meeting you.

Outed! Yep, that's me. Nice meeting you too. It's always fun to catch a
rec.climber name that I recognize on the computer as someone scans their
card and put a face to a name.

BTW...nice web site.

Melissa


N42461

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 10:41:34 PM11/1/01
to
>Chas wrote:
>
>"the original climbing technique book".
>Not nearly.
>Seems like our heritage is fading away... What about Royal Robbins' "Basic
>Rockcraft" and "Advanced Rockcraft"?

Yeah, those are ok, but I remember buying that large format book when it came
out and everything was just made alot clearer than in the RR books or FOTH.

I had forgotten about that book untill today. Ron jogged a good memory when he
mentioned that woman in the pictures...way hotter than Royal.

One can still buy it used:

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?show=Trade%20Paper:Used:0871562812:8.50

No chapters on cordalettes (thank God), but well well worth $8-$10.

nathan (tapeless in Tahoe) sweet

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 11:16:18 PM11/1/01
to

> I climbed with two 5.12 gym climbers of several years experience who do laps
> on gym cracks, who backed off of leads on West Country and South Crack, 5.7
> and 5.8 respectively, but it was all mental. Does anyone else find the idea

Yes, I agree with you on mental part! I was talking only about pure crack
technique, i.e. can you do the moves on toprop. The mental part is not crack
specific. There are climbers who are way better than me on toprope face
and crack, but don't want to lead yet at all.

> that someone would need to train in the gym for months, 2-3 times a week, in
> order to lead 5.7-8 cracks just a little ridiculous? Spend next week in the
> valley and you'll be leading 5.8 by Thursday, maybe Friday if you're a slow
> learner. It ain't that hard.

yep. More typicall snobbery from the experienced folks. ;-)

2 things:

1. obviously I am a really slow learner.
2. Spend a week in a valley doing exactly what? Toproping and flailing the
popular
routes so that experienced climbers could complain about you? or hiring a guide
for
8 days? Not everyone has some experienced mentor to take them up stuff, I did,
but for others gym might be a nessesity.

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 11:21:04 PM11/1/01
to

> Months and months of practicing gym cracks in order to lead 5.8 crack!!!
> Give me a break. That is pathetic. I am not impressed.
>
> Andy

Andy: when you have climbed for 6 years, are you really going to remember how
long it took you to lead that first crack: 1 month or 3 months?

It doesn't matter. What I am trying to say is that some people have a luxury of
having
an experienced ropegun take them up harder stuff, or are rich enough to hire
guides.

Other people who don't have this luxury do not need to hear experienced climbers
saying how they will never become "real" trad leaders having learned on gym
cracks.
It might take longer, but it is possible, that's all I am saying!

Olga

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 11:26:42 PM11/1/01
to
...

> Not insulted. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in that if failing to cruise up 5.8
> cracks makes one pathetic then I am proudly, happily pathetic (along with a substantial fraction of the other rec.climbers.)

I can't even lead Jamcrack w/o falling so I am even more pathetic, get in line!



> > My main opinion is that you would advance faster
> > if you were "practicing" on real cracks in the outdoors rather than gym
> > cracks.
>
> I doubt anyone would say that outdoor cracks are not the ideal place to learn how to
> climb
> outdoor cracks. However, the Valley is a long way to go after work on Tues, whereas
> Mission Cliffs or Planite Granite or whatever your favorite house of plastic may be are
>
> much more practical options for working out some of the details of crack technique.

Very true, in addition, I would like any specific examples of what a non-leading
climber w/o experienced mentor is supposed to do for a week in the Valley to
learn
to climb cracks.

I think Consumnes would be more appropriate for toproping granite cracks
anyways.

Olga <not going to the gym, going to drive hours and climb cracks this weekend>

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 11:34:27 PM11/1/01
to

> I've only been to PG a few times, and not for several months, but I remember
> the vert off-width hands crack there being beyond moderate. I think my best was
> 1 fall. If I had freed it, maybe I'd call it moderate (or easy as in "you mean you
> can't do that easy crack"). Like other gym offwidths, wide, but not deep,
> hard to use the knee (my knees never jam well in offwidths anyway - too little
> range), arm bar, etc. When I've come across offwidth sections on outdoor
> moderates, it was always easier.

Karin had gone from not being able to climb it at all to climbing it with no
falls.
Same with couple of other friends. I wish I had such dedication! Unfortunately I
am very lazy and hate to work on projects.

> With the variety of cracks at PG (including the roof crack in the bouldering area),
> I'd expect someone who worked on them regularly to have no problem with outdoor
> moderates. They're harder than many of the popular Yosemite & JT moderates
> anyway (including Serenity Crack, Jam Crack, Bishop's Terrace, Nutcracker,
> Doublecross, and Sail Away). Do people really find that the indoor cracks don't
> translate to climbing outside? Or is it just a metter of boldness?

I have followed many of the climbs you mentioned at Josh and Yosemite (Bishop's
Terrace being my second Yosemite climb, and After 6/After 7 being first)
and I never really needed much crack technique. I would fall of course, but then
would get through the section. In mutlipitch climbing you rarely get to
"practice"
you need to clean the pitch as fast as possible and get your ass out of there.
Many beginners are even better face climbers than I am and will always find away
to climb a 5.10 outside of the crack instead of 5.8 crack.

Olga

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 11:40:46 PM11/1/01
to
....

> > Yes, it is possible, (and I have seen it happen) for a person to totally train
> > themselves on gym cracks, take a lead class and then come out and lead 5.8
>
> They had better, after training 2-3 times per week for six months!

3 months. Sorry



> > Yes sure following a lot of pitches is very useful, etc. etc
> It sure is. It's hard to learn new techniques when you are gripped on
> lead.

...


> > and 5.10 face climbers will usually find a way to climb a 5.7-5.8 cracks
> > using 5.10 face moves.
>
> Just say no to face! If you are just trying to get up, do it however you
> please, but if you want to learn crack technique USE THE CRACK! Also, no
> unnecessary laybacks (my crutch). Laybacking has it's place but it
> doesn't help you learn to jam.

Very true, but when following mutipitch second is more concerned with going fast
and not hanging on rope than with "learning technique"
I would like to see what you would say if you were a 3rd party waiting on
Bishops Terrace while some beginner was avoiding face moves and liebacks and
taking time to practice the jamming technique. I bet you would tell him to
pull on gear and get the hell out of there.

I claim it is much better to learn on topropes, AND gym.

Olga

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 1, 2001, 11:46:06 PM11/1/01
to
8-)
BTW: everyone: here is Melissa (the girl on the right):

http://www.belayslave.com/2001/FresnoChiquitoDomesAug4-5/images/Fresno-Chiquito01.jpg

OK, OK I am mean. Melissa, don't kill me!
Olga

Scary Larry

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 12:02:25 AM11/2/01
to

Dingus Milktoast wrote in message <3BE17ED9...@midtown.net>...
>So what are they? What once piece of advice (or theme) would
>you offer aspiring crack climbers?
>


Think creatively! Don't just take the obvious jam. If thumbs up doesn't
lock, try thumbs down. Overhand fist not right? try uppercut. Right hand
not working in the obvious sweet spot? try left... etc


Phil Box

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 1:36:10 AM11/2/01
to

"Olga Chotinun" <ol...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3BE2223D...@earthlink.net...
Snippage

> Many beginners are even better face climbers than I am and will always
find away
> to climb a 5.10 outside of the crack instead of 5.8 crack.
>
> Olga
It`s not only the beginners that don`t wanna get into a crack to climb it.
At Frog which is crack heaven and at which I took like a duck to water we
often get heaps of overseas and interstate visitors. The peanut gallery
forms below the expert face/novice crack climber to watch the inevitable
flailing outside the easy hand jam crack. Ahh tis a thing to behold. I know
I really shouldn`t.
...Phil...


Bill Zaumen

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 2:12:42 AM11/2/01
to
In article <1LpE7.51701$HZ.18...@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com>, "Scary
Larry" <retr...@netscape.net> wrote:

One thing that beginning crack climbers miss is to turn their knees up
to a vertical position before standing up: that is needed to lock the
foot in place.

Another is that if you have a jam with your thumbs pointed down, your
right/left hand and right/left foot will tend to apply torque in the
opposite direction, which can help, provided the crack doesn't lean
substantially to one side, etc.

Besides trying various hand positions as Dingus suggested, also try
to see which foot should be torqued with which hand and whether you
should put one foot or the other on top and shuffle your feet up
rather than alternating which foot is higher as you might in other
situations.

Bill

--
As an anti-spam measure, my email address is only provided in a GIF
file. Please see <http://home.pacbell.net/zaumen/email.gif>.

Spammers can try mailto:s34...@aol.com mailto:sdkj34...@aol.com

Karl Baba

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Nov 2, 2001, 2:13:07 AM11/2/01
to
Ding Dang Dingus! Giving out the secrets of the Black Art and putting
the poor Baba out of business?!

Well, since the cat's out of the bag....

First of all, I agree with eveything you wrote 100% (except that I
suspect gym practice is way better than no practice) I frequently have
folks come climb with me who want to focus on crack climbing, Here are
some of my observations:

1. The majority of beginning crack climbers don't "really" have a clear
grasp of the mechanics of a hand jam. This is hard to convey in words,
and needs practice until you "get it" but...the main hand muscle for
hand jamming is the fleshy area at the base of the thumb. For a thumbs
up jam, this fleshy base of the thumb flexes and applies pressure
against the back of the hand, particularly against an area on the bone
just less than an inch below the index finger's third knuckle. The
fingers play no role in most hand jams and you should be able to hang
all your weight on a bomber hand jam and still wiggle all four fingers.

2. It can't be overemphasized that the arms are just to keep you from
falling backwards. It helps to keep your arms straight when possible or
locked off (when placing pro or reaching up for the next jam)

3. Dingus' foot jam advice is perfect. Folks complain about foot pain
but it hurts feet less for feet to be clamped into the crack front to
back rather than side to side. Get used to standing on your feet with
your ankle twisted. I'm used to it but it might help to try walking
around bowlegged on the sides of your feet. Just like you can stand on
a dime edge, you can stand on a jam that merely consists of the end of
your big toe twisted into a pin scar, particularly if you hold your
body in such a way that pastes the toe into the crack.

4. Hold your body in such a way that your weight stays over your feet.
This might involve creative body position.

5. Some cracks suggest that you keep one foot in the crack while the
other smears the face while you quickly hike the crack foot up to the
next jam. Sometimes you keep both feet in the crack and leapfrog one
foot over the other. Sometimes it is less awkward to shuffle the feet
up the crack, with one foot staying low and the other high. The same
goes for the hand jams, it could be one hand over the other, or one
staying low and the other high.

6. Choose the jam that feels most solid. Thumbs up is preferable to
thumbs down since those jams are most solid when you bring them down to
chest level or lower.

7. For finger jams, try to have the constriction bind on the area
between the knuckles not on them. The strongest finger jam stacks the
middle finger over the index finger with the arm/elbow oriented
straight down, not pulling to the side.

8, Greg did a good job explaining how it's a good idea to place your
hand jam so you don't have to move it while your using it. That's how
you get the blood flowing. See his post for details.

9. When it gets too big for bomber hands, use "cupped hands" by
rotating the thumb further from the index finger, if wider go to fists,
if wider, complain, then pull on the edge of the crack with one hand
while you press on the far edge of the crack with the bone of the
forearm of the other.

10. When it gets too small for bomber hands, first try to get away with
thin hands, thinner? ..look for constrictions in the crack and wrap
your index and middle fingers around the constriction from the top and
thumb up around the constriction from the bottom. It's hard to hold
your whole weight on this kind of jam so pay attention to standing on
you feet. Softer shoes, like slippers, work better in thin hand and
finger cracks than Kaukulaters, Aces, or other stiff shoes.

11. When the crack gets too wide for bomber feet. cam one side your
foot against one side of the crack while the other side of your shoe
presses on the other side. As it gets wider, move towards Heel/toe
jamming.

12. I hate tape because it's hard to keep it from constricting the
muscles used in jamming. You wind up wasting power fighting the tape.
Tape gloves are usually less offensive. A client gave me a pair of hand
jammies (thanks) which I find useful for walls and rough fist cracks,
but in general, it's way easier for me to climb with naked hands, so
it's hard to consider tape or jammies to be cheating.

13. If you want to learn crack climbing, stop resorting to standing on
face holds and/or liebacking. These crutches just hold you back and
will only take you so far.

Oh Oh, It's getting late and I've got somebody to punish tomorrow. Marc
from Quebec and I did the East Butt of Middle in 5 1/2 hours, all free,
car to car. The guy is so fast and efficient that he deserves some hard
5.10 cracks. Nitey nite!

I teach crack climbing all winter long since there are so many good
ones in the sun. (hint)

Peace

Karl

--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/

Karl Baba

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 2:27:45 AM11/2/01
to
In article <3BE1F50C...@itsa.ucsf.edu>, Melissa
<mmi...@itsa.ucsf.edu> wrote:
snip

> I doubt anyone would say that outdoor cracks are not the ideal place to learn
> how to
> climb
> outdoor cracks. However, the Valley is a long way to go after work on Tues,
> whereas
> Mission Cliffs or Planite Granite or whatever your favorite house of plastic
> may be are
>
> much more practical options for working out some of the details of crack technique.
Snip

Gym practice is way better than no practice and often has one
advantage, some gym cracks may force you to use pure jamming technique
while outside, some folks constantly lieback, and use faceholds to
avoid pure jamming

Peace

karl

Scott M. Grimes

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 12:12:59 PM11/2/01
to
"Dingus Milktoast" wrote

> So what are they? What once piece of advice (or theme) would
> you offer aspiring crack climbers?

> Here's mine:

>snip great advise about foot work<

Here's mine:

HANDS

1.) Do the hand shuffle _when possible_ instead of leap fogging hand over
hand. This means you have a designated top hand and bottom hand. The idea
behind this technique is that you never really have your hands completely
out of the crack except for the Euro-Chalking photo-op for the mag. cover
because you just nailed a sports-bra endorsement.

2.) By practicing #1 you should also try to place pro below your upper most
hand so that the gear doesn't block-out excellent jamming opportunities;
again _when possible_.

3.) Just as Dingus describe how to lock a foot in place by pointing the knee
out then standing the same can be achieved with the fingers on smaller width
cracks. By sticking your elbow out and with your thumb pointing down you
stick your fingers in the crack and rotate your elbow down towards your
chest. The end result is a rather secure feeling finger lock...hopefully.

FEET

1.) A pair of board lasted high top shoes, if they're made anymore....still
have a pair of Fires. Can you say ankle gobies.

CLOTHING

1.) When possible wear painter pants and a long sleeve rugby shirt for
practical purposes and a bandana around your melon for fashion purposes.
Yes, this does go against the sports-bra endorsement comment but you really
don't want to see me in women's under garments.

IMAGINATION

1.) Chicken Wings, Calf Scrums, Knee Bars, Knee Jams, Whole Leg Jams, Hand
to Elbow Bridge Jams, plus many other types of Jams await you just open the
jar....err um your mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, so it was more than one piece of advise, sorry.


SMG


Dawn Alguard

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 10:04:18 AM11/2/01
to
Julie wrote:
>
> Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
> > Last note: my experience has been that gym crack simulations
> > are not very useful for practicing this type of movement.
>
> I was so hoping my gym's "new crack wall" would be useful, because I'm
> as bad on cracks as any self-respecting Gunks face climber.

Have you tried the Prime Climb crack? I strongly recommend
taping but as a totally boring, straight-up, vertical, parallel,
mostly same-sized crack, it's actually pretty good for practicing
technique.

Dawn

Dingus Milktoast

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 10:36:15 AM11/2/01
to
Karl Baba wrote:

Well, my point wasn't that gym cracks totally suck, or are totally useless. It's just
that most of the ones I've played on are poor simulations of Yosemite granite moderates.
They tend to encourage people to climb with their arms and not their legs. Clearly you
have to do this in the harder crack grades. But if you start from the get go hanging on
your arms...

DMT

Dingus Milktoast

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 11:24:54 AM11/2/01
to
Olga Chotinun wrote:

> someone else wrote, attribution missing...

> > Just say no to face! If you are just trying to get up, do it however you
> > please, but if you want to learn crack technique USE THE CRACK! Also, no
> > unnecessary laybacks (my crutch). Laybacking has it's place but it
> > doesn't help you learn to jam.

I believe this mindset holds people back. Too many times I've seen budding crack
masters doggedly and laboriously foot jamming a crack when obvious and easy stem moves
would have them floating. I think of the 1st pitch of the Central Pillar of Frenzy as
the classic example. Try and stick to jams and you will be cussing (and likely very
scared). Get your head out of your arse, look around (and face to the right) and you
will see the face holds that render the pitch 5.9.

The point is, MAKE THE CLIMBING LOOK EASY. The right way is the easiest way.
Determinedly jamming up a stem crack is no badge of honor. Do whatever is easiest.

> Very true, but when following mutipitch second is more concerned with going fast
> and not hanging on rope than with "learning technique"

Those are techniques too.

> I would like to see what you would say if you were a 3rd party waiting on
> Bishops Terrace while some beginner was avoiding face moves and liebacks and
> taking time to practice the jamming technique. I bet you would tell him to
> pull on gear and get the hell out of there.

No, I wouldn't. Any experienced climber who willingly gets in line on such a popular
moderate and then has the gall to complain about the pace lacks grace and good
manners. Let them wait.

> I claim it is much better to learn on topropes, AND gym.

There is nothing wrong with top ropes and gyms. But if you really want to give your
crack climbing a boost, the advice about climbing every day for two weeks is spot on.

So a person doesn't have a rope gun mentor to drag them up moderate after moderate? So
what? Most of us didn't. Climb off the Camp 4 bulletin board. Drag your partner up
those moderates! Flip the switch in your head that says YOU CAN DO THIS. You can be
the rope gun. You can be the leader. Just put on the gear sling, tie the knot and
start climbing. Gonna get in trouble from time to time? YEAH! Gonna get scared? WORD!
Guess what? You'll get those whether you're on the sharp end or not. And as most
reasonably seasoned leaders will tell you, after a very short time, you're be more
worried and have less peace of mind, when following pitches than when leading.

2 weeks in the valley and 5.8 and 5.9 cracks will no longer represent the great
unknown. They will represent your new playground. I'm not kidding and anyone who has
done it will confirm it. Rope gun or not, just go for it.

DMT

Andy Gale

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 12:38:16 PM11/2/01
to

Olga Chotinun wrote:

>>Months and months of practicing gym cracks in order to lead 5.8 crack!!!
>>Give me a break. That is pathetic. I am not impressed.
>>
>>Andy
>>
>
> Andy: when you have climbed for 6 years, are you really going to remember how
> long it took you to lead that first crack: 1 month or 3 months?


actually when it comes to cracks my climbing history is a bit
convoluted. And it also lasts longer than 6 years.


>
> It doesn't matter. What I am trying to say is that some people have a luxury of
> having
> an experienced ropegun take them up harder stuff, or are rich enough to hire
> guides.
>
> Other people who don't have this luxury do not need to hear experienced climbers
> saying how they will never become "real" trad leaders having learned on gym
> cracks.
> It might take longer, but it is possible, that's all I am saying!


Point taken. You are right, of course. I'll try not to be a snob. Sorry.

Andy

Chris Kantarjiev

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 12:57:12 PM11/2/01
to

> 1. The majority of beginning crack climbers don't "really" have a clear
> grasp of the mechanics of a hand jam. This is hard to convey in words,
> and needs practice until you "get it" but...the main hand muscle for
> hand jamming is the fleshy area at the base of the thumb. For a thumbs
> up jam, this fleshy base of the thumb flexes and applies pressure
> against the back of the hand, particularly against an area on the bone
> just less than an inch below the index finger's third knuckle. The
> fingers play no role in most hand jams and you should be able to hang
> all your weight on a bomber hand jam and still wiggle all four fingers.

Hmm. This is a revelation - on the "5.8" crack at PG, I get tired from
exerting fingertip pressure. I'm not sure I get the meaty part of my
palm into the crack!

>
> 3. Dingus' foot jam advice is perfect. Folks complain about foot pain
> but it hurts feet less for feet to be clamped into the crack front to
> back rather than side to side. Get used to standing on your feet with
> your ankle twisted. I'm used to it but it might help to try walking
> around bowlegged on the sides of your feet. Just like you can stand on
> a dime edge, you can stand on a jam that merely consists of the end of
> your big toe twisted into a pin scar, particularly if you hold your
> body in such a way that pastes the toe into the crack.
>

My foot pain is/seems to be from not getting my foot in far enough, so
I'm jamming the first knuckle of my little toe against the edge.

This, combined with the observation above, makes me think that I should
be practicing my basic technique in a *wider* crack... thanks, Karl!

--
Don't just sit there reading news: get active!
http://www.earthjustice.org/join/ http://www.yosemitevalley.org
http://www.heifer.org

Travis C. Brooks

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 1:12:15 PM11/2/01
to
On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Melissa wrote:

> Did anyone else have a quantum leap in crack climbing ability from
> where the jams didn't make sense and no progress happened w/out face
> holds to having the jams just start working to the point that vertical
> 5.8 hand cracks aren't too bad?
>

Yep, this is exactly how I would describe it. Most of the time it took me
to learn this was in the gym. And the best lessons were had outside. If
I'd had the time and means to go spend 1-2 weeks in yose doing just this,
that would have worked too, I think, but, as Olga says, not everyone can
do that, and the gym worked well as a surrogate.

Later
Travis

Travis C. Brooks

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 1:18:05 PM11/2/01
to
On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Dingus Milktoast wrote:

>
> I believe this mindset holds people back. Too many times I've seen
> budding crack masters doggedly and laboriously foot jamming a crack
> when obvious and easy stem moves would have them floating. I think of
> the 1st pitch of the Central Pillar of Frenzy as the classic example.
> Try and stick to jams and you will be cussing (and likely very
> scared). Get your head out of your arse, look around (and face to the
> right) and you will see the face holds that render the pitch 5.9.
>

And sometimes the easiest way to do this on Central Pillar is to fall
after pumping yourself silly trying bad straight in jams. Then, when your
head spins around, you notice all the great stems you've missed. Not that
I would know...

That climb may have been the best learning experience of my admittedly
short climbing career. Each of the first 3 pitches taught a different
lesson, but damn if they weren't all fun.

Later
Travis, whose head is only removed from arse by force

Dawn Alguard

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 1:47:54 PM11/2/01
to
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
> What once piece of advice (or theme) would
> you offer aspiring crack climbers?

Wear sturdy shoes and tape your hands. It's easier to
concentrate on learning the technique when you aren't in a lot of
pain. You can take off the tape and put on slippers later.

Dawn

Greg Sadowy

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 1:02:50 PM11/2/01
to

> > Greg Sadowy wrote:
> > > Just say no to face! If you are just trying to get up, do it however you
> > > please, but if you want to learn crack technique USE THE CRACK! Also, no
> > > unnecessary laybacks (my crutch). Laybacking has it's place but it
> > > doesn't help you learn to jam.

> Dingus Milktoast wrote:
> I believe this mindset holds people back. Too many times I've seen budding crack
> masters doggedly and laboriously foot jamming a crack when obvious and easy stem moves
> would have them floating. I think of the 1st pitch of the Central Pillar of Frenzy as
> the classic example. Try and stick to jams and you will be cussing (and likely very
> scared). Get your head out of your arse, look around (and face to the right) and you
> will see the face holds that render the pitch 5.9.
>
> The point is, MAKE THE CLIMBING LOOK EASY. The right way is the easiest way.
> Determinedly jamming up a stem crack is no badge of honor. Do whatever is easiest.

Dingus, I wasn't trying to tell people that they should not use all the
techniques at their disposal for climbing. However, if your objective to
hone your crack foot technique, you get more practice by keeping your
foot in the crack. Yes, it may make the climb artificially harder, but
it's good practice for other cracks with fewer options.

One problem with making it look easy is that you will favor your
strengths when it is much more effective to train your weaknesses. Here
is a personal example. I was toproping a short offwidth in order to
learn some OW technique. After two horrid scraping grunting sessions at
it (successful, but not easy looking!) I gave it a go using a layback.
Because on lip of the crack stuck out a few more inches on one side than
the other and it leaned in that direction, I skated up it with ease. I
learned nothing about OW technique by laybacking, but I did make it look
easy.

On the other hand, if I encountered a similar crack on a multipitch
climb it would probably be a good idea for me to layback it, and I
would. Whether or not you should use the technique that is most
efficient (given your current skills) depends up whether your objective
is an easy ascent or training your weaknesses.

-Greg

Chris McRaven

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 2:16:30 PM11/2/01
to
In article <kviE7.340$1i.255...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>, bill folk wrote:
>on gym cracks, who backed off of leads on West Country and South Crack, 5.7
>and 5.8 respectively, but it was all mental. Does anyone else find the idea
>that someone would need to train in the gym for months, 2-3 times a week, in
>order to lead 5.7-8 cracks just a little ridiculous? Spend next week in the
>valley and you'll be leading 5.8 by Thursday, maybe Friday if you're a slow
>learner. It ain't that hard.
>
>Bill
>
>

I'm with Bill on this one. Although it's hard (and usually painful) to learn
cracks outside, you learn much faster. This is mostly due to the fact that you
are exposed to situations you will probably never see in a gym crack. You are
forced to deal with a variety of moves instead just jam and pull at the gym.

Gym cracks in my opinion aren't really for beginners. I would say that they are
there mainly for variation in the gym, and can only be utilized by someone who
has his/her crack technique down and wants to get some endurance up for a trip
to Indian Creek.

Chris

Wendy Joseph

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 2:18:13 PM11/2/01
to
Dingus Milktoast <crha...@midtown.net> writes:

>The point is, MAKE THE CLIMBING LOOK EASY.
>The right way is the easiest way. Determinedly jamming
>up a stem crack is no badge of honor. Do whatever is
>easiest.

Amen! That's why I face climb 5.11 around the 5.9 crack--
it's easier for me. (But I swear I'm working on my jams...)

Wendy


Brutus of Wyde

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 2:52:27 PM11/2/01
to
Olga Chotinun wrote:
> he-he ;-) You old-timers would really like to believe this, wouldn't you?
> Yeah, right, live in your dream world where the gym trained less adventurous
> climbers who wouldn't get into the sport had there not been climbing gyms
> don't become good enough to lead the old school climbs.

My primary training for Astroman consisted of laps on the Cityrock
crack circuit. By the time the climb was approaching I was doing three
laps a workout. It was some of the best crack training I have done,
ranging from 5.10d tips-only slab crack with rand smears to steep
stemming/layback to 5.11 horizontal roof hand crack and finishing with
the 5.10-5.12 chimney inversion thing.



> Yes sure following a lot of pitches is very useful, etc. etc

> but not everyone has the luxury of more experienced mentors, and 5.10 face


> climbers will usually find a way to climb a 5.7-5.8 cracks using 5.10

> face moves. yes, there are few climbs which are not like that, but many are.

otoh, Olga, you need to spend a week or two at Indian Creek. :)

Brutus, never met a 5.8 OW that could be bypassed on 5.10 face without
getting offroute.

Brutus of Wyde

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 2:55:49 PM11/2/01
to
Dingus Milktoast wrote: What once piece of advice (or theme) would
> you offer aspiring crack climbers?

Kneepads and elbow pads, #5 cams, and think of 1/4" upwards as major progress.
(That's three, but your advice was longer ;-)

Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California

Dave Knorr

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 4:01:16 PM11/2/01
to
> The hip belay pictures along with him forsaking belay devices as extra
gear
> are classic.

My favorite picture of Loughman's belay technique was at the top of La Reina
at Indian Cove in JTree...
I was following and when I got to the top he was sitting in a nice dish with
no gear in and using a hip belay.
I kind of freaked about the gearless anchor until I realized I could not
have pulled him out of there...no way.

Dave Knorr


Ross

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 4:46:14 PM11/2/01
to
It seems like everybody has a little twist to add to
this thread. I love all forms of crack climbing but
being half way decent at it didn't come easy.

I never really had a problem with my feet while climbing
cracks. My first problem dealt with how I placed my hand
in the crack, that was the key and once I got that
solved I moved to the over-reaching problem. That
is, only over reach when I have to. Instead keeping
my hands close to my body.

For me the fingers play an important role in hand jams.
I have thin hands and long fingers, maybe this makes
a difference? The way I make a hand jam: If you look
at your palm with the fingers straight out and together
the thumb crosses across the palm to touch the base
of the little finger. Then the fingers bend together
touching the side of the crack. Then like Karl says,
its the meat below the thumb that takes the load.

Once I 'got' what I was suppose to do I practiced,
probably for about a year, until I could comfortably
hang off a one handed jam and let the feet pop.

Then by climbing every crack I could get my hands on
I experimented with jams & sequences. At this point I
was having fun, it's that part of the 'figuring-out' the climb.
For the top hand, sometimes its a thumbs up because
I know I need to keep that jam as I move past it, all
the way to my stomach or lower. Usually though the
top hand is thumbs down. Sometimes on contiguous
cracks I use thumbs up for both hands.

Usually I don't use tape but tape is nice to have tape for
10 and up overhanging (finger) cracks. Tape can save
your skin on long crack climbs. It definitely adds
to the stickiness of the jam. For me they're few things
scarier than watching your hand start to slip out of the
crack when your burnt and your fiddling trying to
place that piece, tape helps in these situations, (duh).

I find bridging to be the hardest jam to use.
It occurs when the thumb supports the two
fingers placed straight in the crack horizontally.
Coyne crack comes to mind, that's probably why
I failed leading it.

Oh, and you don't need to be in a chimney to use chimney
moves, take for example TurnKorner, as your moving
off the third pitch, near the location Robbins took a
couple of falls, your faced with this sort of overhanging, ok it is,
left facing corner with a wide crack that turns to a right facing
corner. Getting situated in that crack would be
quite hard but for a small vertical edge far out on the face.
Using a chimney move, back scum, makes this move
'easy'. Same move on Left Wing in Boulder canyon as
you round the corner near the top. TurnKorner
is an excellent hand crack that just looks wide, there are
few OW moves.

--Ross

"Karl Baba" <gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com> wrote

Olga Chotinun

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Nov 2, 2001, 7:56:13 PM11/2/01
to
wsjg...@aol.comxyz (Wendy Joseph) wrote in message news:<20011102141813...@nso-fi.aol.com>...

This is too funny!
;-)

Olga
(who only really started jamming at the indoor crack, and was
always doing "something else" when following and even leading
crack climbs outdoors)

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 2, 2001, 11:31:54 PM11/2/01
to

Brutus of Wyde wrote:
...

> otoh, Olga, you need to spend a week or two at Indian Creek. :)

that's what i keep hearing, next trip maybe.



> Brutus, never met a 5.8 OW that could be bypassed on 5.10 face without
> getting offroute.

OK, but what about liebacking it?

Olga

D a v i d E m r i c h

unread,
Nov 3, 2001, 12:52:35 AM11/3/01
to

"Olga Chotinun" <ol...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:3BE2223D...@earthlink.net...
> Karin had gone from not being able to climb it at all to climbing it with no
> falls.

That's encouraging. If I get back there (could even happen next week), I'll
have to try again. I find the roof crack harder, but more fun.

David

Geoff Jennings

unread,
Nov 3, 2001, 2:34:25 AM11/3/01
to
>
because I'm
> as bad on cracks as any self-respecting Gunks face climber

We'll fix that......

Geoff

A. Cairns

unread,
Nov 3, 2001, 4:47:05 PM11/3/01
to

Karl Baba wrote:

<del>

> I hate tape because it's hard to keep it from constricting the
> muscles used in jamming.

There is a kind of tape (elastoplast?) that is stretchy like
an ace bandage.

Andy Cairns

Mike Shutters

unread,
Nov 3, 2001, 9:18:57 PM11/3/01
to
Unfortunately, any kind of tape with elastic qualities will most likely tend
to come off easier, especially if your hands are sweating. You're not
referring to Coban (elastic wrap) are you? Even though it sticks very well
to itself, it doesn't stick to skin.

However, after doing a little "Googling", I found some elastic tape, but
I've never considered it for climbing:
http://www.exmed.net/exmed/product.asp?dept%5Fid=1404&pf%5Fid=BEI2594%2DEACH
http://www.exmed.net/exmed/dept.asp?dept_id=1404

http://www.google.com/search?q=elastic+tape

Good luck!

Mike

--
To reply, remove all caps from return address,
or, reply to: shutters att mswin d0t net.

"A. Cairns" <lek...@intergate.ca> wrote in message
news:3BE465D5...@intergate.ca...

Steve Axthelm

unread,
Nov 3, 2001, 10:51:23 PM11/3/01
to
Thanks Dingus, Karl, and everyone else who contributed, excellent thread.

A couple of things I didn't see anyone else mention:

Sometimes it helps me to keep a jam (esp. thumbs up) set and not move or
rotate it when moving up on it if I concentrate on keeping my lower arm
and elbow in the same place. Hard to describe, but I imagine I'm pulling
down with my elbow. Like the force vector starts at my hand and travels
straight to and out my elbow

Regarding leading cracks: One of the things that was hard for me in
initially moving from bolted face routes to crack climbs was that bolted
faces had an automatic movement focus built in, the next bolt, with
cracks that's less obvious. It took me quite a while to learn to try and
read the crack, look for my next likely stance to place pro and then
focus on that spot as a sort of interim goal.

--
-Steve

Steelmnkey

unread,
Nov 3, 2001, 11:09:35 PM11/3/01
to
>Olga Chotinun ol...@earthlink.net

<< in reference to climbing an offwidth>>


>OK, but what about liebacking it?

Forgive me, but I always like this response. Usually clearly denotes someone
who's thinking purely in terms of toproping. It is extremely difficult to put
in protection while laybacking unless you have really good stances that come
along at just the right times. Alternative is just to run it out to a stance
above the offending offwidth section, but that can lead to it's own problems.
Especially if it's just offwidth from bottom to top.

G.


Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 2:51:48 AM11/4/01
to

OK, I was good today and actually climbed a 5.8 offwidth (toprope) w/o
liebacking.
Mind you, it could not have been led anyways, it was too wide for any kind of
gear
I own. Probably needed big bros or something. It was a full body exercise.

Then we toproped another 5.8 offwidth. The guudebook said: don't try to lieback,
use
offwidth technique. After not being able to do a single move, we pulled a rope.
Then I asked an apparent oldtimer we met showed us the first essential move.
It wasn't that bad, but it was getting dark, and we did not set the toprope
again.
Next time.

The guy we met freesoloed this short offwidth all the way up. He was very nice,
helpful and not making fun of our apparent lack of offwidth technique. Gave us a
lot
of helpful suggestions. He even seemed impressed with Karin's performance on a
hand crack.

Next time I wear long sleeve shirt no matter how hot it is. Well at least I
wasn't
wearing a teeny tanktop like Karin... Still my shirt rode up and my entire back
is scratched!

Mad Dog

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 9:37:06 AM11/4/01
to
steel...@aol.com says...

>>Olga Chotinun ol...@earthlink.net

This applies to thinner cracks too - without a bailout stance, moving from a
lieback into position to place gear is tenuous. A couple of years ago, I lead a
sustained handcrack dihedral by jamming. My second liebacked it, reaching
around to clean and at the belay, criticized me for making the pitch look harder
than it was for him. I recommended that we rap down and he lead it with his
beloved lieback. End of discussion. Placing gear blind can make the piece of
pro stick and hold the rope - but that don't mean it will hold a fall. Besides,
liebacks are ultimately more strenuous.

Karl Baba

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 9:52:11 AM11/4/01
to
In article <9s3jq...@drn.newsguy.com>, Mad Dog <mad6...@msn.com>
wrote:

As much as I think liebacking is a waste of energy in a jamcrack, there
are some cracks where some liebacking may make sense. In that case, in
order to place pro, look for a footjam, edge or good smear on the face,
and plant your foot on/in it, keep liebacking your arms up the crack
until your body straigtens up and you are standing on the edge or jam.
Place pro, rest, then resume climbing.

Also, there is a half-way method between jamming and liebacking where
you get as many jams as possible, paste your toe into the crack as best
you can, and maintain a less extreme lieback angle. (something I used
to do on the lieback pitch of the Good Book before it turned into a
rockfall zone) The less extreme angle of lieback, the less effort and
the easier transition to placing pro

greg mushial

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 12:06:35 PM11/4/01
to
On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:49:11 GMT, "Kevin Corcoran" <ke...@lynxgen.com>
wrote:

>
>> Spot on ... forced myself to learn how to use my feet, by climbing
>> lots of stuff one handed (sometimes left, sometimes right)
>
>Greg, can you please expand on this technique.
>

Kevin - ever gone bouldering and having sent a particular
problem/route, you've started "ruling" this hold out, that hold out,
to make the problem "more interesting"? Climbing one handed
is just an extension of that - instead of ruling various holds out,
one simple rules the use of either hand as "out". That's all, nothing
more sophisticated than that.

When I started playing with this idea, it wasn't a pretty sight (more
like a thrutchfest) in that I was a hand climber, and where the feet
kind of came along for the ride [also explained why I had hit 5.9 as a
ceiling - this was back in the 70's]; but after working on it, and
with much generous cooperation from two climbing partners in
particular - I became a more much more capable climber - where the
feet did the climbing, the hand/arms provided the balance, and 5.9
became a cakewalk (most days).

greg mushial

Lord Slime

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 11:46:10 AM11/4/01
to
Karl Baba wrote:
> I hate tape because it's hard to keep it from constricting the
> muscles used in jamming.

My experience tells me that this may be true for the first few moves or
the first few minutes, but then the tape stretches slightly and doesn't
constrict. The other situation that causes constriction is when the
user puts it on too tight from the start. I wouldn't expect you to make
that mistake, so I'm confused.

Andy Cairns wrote:
> There is a kind of tape (elastoplast?) that is stretchy like
> an ace bandage.

I'm very skeptical that this will just roll off, cut, get stuck or not provide
protection or friction.

- Lord Slime, tape by the case


A. Cairns

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 3:22:35 PM11/4/01
to

Lord Slime wrote:

> Andy Cairns wrote:
> > There is a kind of tape (elastoplast?) that is stretchy like
> > an ace bandage.
>
> I'm very skeptical that this will just roll off, cut, get stuck or not provide
> protection or friction.

And Mike Shutters:

> Unfortunately, any kind of tape with elastic qualities will most likely tend
> to come off easier, especially if your hands are sweating. You're not
> referring to Coban (elastic wrap) are you? Even though it sticks very well
> to itself, it doesn't stick to skin.

I should have added that I have used Elastoplast(tm) and it works well in
some circumstances. The 3" size is better than the more readily available
1". It sticks quite well to skin, less well but adequately to itself. It provides

great protection from and good friction with rock surfaces. I have worn it
for full days of crack climbing with no problems. It can reduce the effort
needed to get secure jams. I much prefer to do without it because I distrust
all technology. I would reccomend that anyone curious about taping give
it a try.

Andy Cairns


Karl Baba

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 4:46:19 PM11/4/01
to
In article <3MfF7.429$X3.193...@news.frii.net>, Lord Slime
<jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:

> Karl Baba wrote:
> > I hate tape because it's hard to keep it from constricting the
> > muscles used in jamming.
>
> My experience tells me that this may be true for the first few moves or
> the first few minutes, but then the tape stretches slightly and doesn't
> constrict. The other situation that causes constriction is when the
> user puts it on too tight from the start. I wouldn't expect you to make
> that mistake, so I'm confused.

Ok, maybe "hate" is too strong a word. It more of an aesthetic
distaste. I like to feel the rock. I spread my hands every which way to
avoid putting the tape on too tight, and it doesn't loosen after a
while, but not completely. I tape by case too. Yes for bearded Cabbage,
probably for the Rostrum, no for Sacherer Cracker. Did the whole Nose
without tape or gloves once. Didn't get many gobis but the truth is, I
just forgot the tape.

Tape is pretty much a condom, protection at a price

Peace and nakedness (if you know you're safe)

Karl

>
> Andy Cairns wrote:
> > There is a kind of tape (elastoplast?) that is stretchy like
> > an ace bandage.
>
> I'm very skeptical that this will just roll off, cut, get stuck or not provide
> protection or friction.
>
> - Lord Slime, tape by the case

--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/

Nate B

unread,
Nov 4, 2001, 8:18:46 PM11/4/01
to

Karl Baba wrote

>Tape is pretty much a condom, protection at a price

...but climbing in the desert w/o tape is about as intelligent as sticking
your dick in a blender.


- Nate

W. Bees

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 12:53:56 AM11/5/01
to
I do use Elastoplast by the case. It sticks better than regular
athletic tape for me because it does stretch with my skin. John's
observations are correct though, it does roll off easier because it's
not stiff and the edge can more easily be turned up. The tension you
apply it with is critical. The tape mass (adhesive) deteriorates with
age. Make sure you get fresh tape and use benzoin.

Since it is elastic it does not provide as much protection as stiff tape
but I've found it to work well enough. Friction seems roughly the same.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about getting stuck? Maybe in the
crack after falling off or rolling so it's thicker?

By the way John, did the simple green/baking soda work for the gas smell?

-Bill

Lord Slime

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 11:05:27 AM11/5/01
to
"W. Bees" <wb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Since it is elastic it does not provide as much protection as stiff tape
> but I've found it to work well enough. Friction seems roughly the same.
> I'm not quite sure what you mean about getting stuck? Maybe in the
> crack after falling off or rolling so it's thicker?

Some of the stretchy tape I've seen "oozes" adhesive, and then sticks
to things like the rock, dirt, etc.


> By the way John, did the simple green/baking soda work for the gas smell?

Yes and no. The most effective thing was to place the items in the sun
and open air for about a week. The gas finally just evaporated.

And although I've never had my dick in a blender such that I could compare,
I agree with Nate about tape in the desert.

- Lord Slime

Ross

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 11:57:44 AM11/5/01
to
Flash back to Great Falls Maryland side where I used to see
one handed climbing and holds being on-route : off-route.
It's fun until you start thinking this way on lead.
"Oh this pitch is to easy, think I'll eliminate these holds."
--Ross
P.S. I sure miss Degree 101, CrankUp, CrankCo, Z-Slash, ...,
but my fingers don't.

"greg mushial" <gmus...@gmdr.com> wrote

Gnarling

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Nov 5, 2001, 4:38:13 PM11/5/01
to
bbin...@ebmud.com (Brutus of Wyde) wrote in message news:<f8adaf6e.01110...@posting.google.com>...

> Dingus Milktoast wrote: What once piece of advice (or theme) would
> > you offer aspiring crack climbers?

> Kneepads and elbow pads, #5 cams, and think of 1/4" upwards as major progress.
> (That's three, but your advice was longer ;-)

Don't listen to Brutus, he's senile and doesn't remember anything
except kneepads. He ought to be on his knees praying!

The secrets of crack climbing are the same as for loving. Stroke the
rock with soft hands, don't fight it, melt into it and pretend it
loves you back. Watch a lot of Peter Croft videos soloing hard 11
crack. And don't think you know how to crack climb just because you
have the gym crack wired. Cracks have a life of their own. Sorry
Brutus, you didn't get into shape for Astroman in City Rock, you got
into shape racing up and down the Steck Salathe and numerous other
heinous Valley routes. I was there, I know what you and John were
doing...Geez!

Inez

Olga Chotinun

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 5:19:18 PM11/5/01
to
I have few comments.
My main point with respect to gym cracks was not that they are better than
training on the real cracks, but that they CAN be a replacement in case a
new climber doesn't have an experienced ropegun. I still stand by this point
and have many examples available by personal email as a proof.

BTW: I am still waiting for a list of things to do for a week in Yosemite
Valley if the person doesn't lead, so that the proper crack technique is
learned.

My other <less important> point was that following a lot of trad pitches
(as opposed to practicing on the toprope climbs) might not be very useful
because lieback or face moves can be used to avoid the crack on more moderate
cracks, since the speed is the game when following mulitpitch.

In my experience even leading many 5.7 cracks doesn't really require good
jamming technique.

Obviously, as the post below indicates, liebacking crack or offwith is useless
when leading, and that is why learning proper technique is very important for
a leader. No argument here.

This weekend me met an older guy who freesoloed the 5.8 offwidth to show us the
moves. He was there alone free soloing some easy climbs. He suggested for us to
try the Sacramento gym to learn all posible crack techniques. He said they had
all sorts of beautiful cracks finger tips to offwidth and they feel just like
real rock. Not that I am going to drive 2 hours just to go to a gym, but maybe
when it rains this winter and they close the road to Kirkwood due to heavy
snow, I might end up there.

Olga

steel...@aol.com (Steelmnkey) wrote in message news:<20011103230935...@mb-mo.aol.com>...

Dingus Milktoast

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 7:20:34 PM11/5/01
to
Olga Chotinun wrote:

> My other <less important> point was that following a lot of trad pitches
> (as opposed to practicing on the toprope climbs) might not be very useful
> because lieback or face moves can be used to avoid the crack on more moderate
> cracks, since the speed is the game when following mulitpitch.

I don't agree with this. Mileage is exactly what the Dr. ordered. And I don't care how you climb those
cracks... just climb them.

> In my experience even leading many 5.7 cracks doesn't really require good
> jamming technique.

See Olga? You're doing it, even sitting at your keyboard. Doing that is... is making the faulty assumption
that the CORRECT way to climb a crack is by jamming. IT AIN'T TRUE! The correct way up a crack, any crack,
absent any ridiculously competitive rules assigned by evil locals, is the easy way. If the easy way calls
for liebacks or the (gasp!) use of a face hold or two, than so be it.

> Obviously, as the post below indicates, liebacking crack or offwith is useless
> when leading,

Don't let the hardcore bastards wear you down Olga. I'd like to see someone lead the Good Book without
liebacking! The last OW I led included several lieback moves. Whatever's easier!

> He suggested for us to
> try the Sacramento gym to learn all posible crack techniques. He said they had
> all sorts of beautiful cracks finger tips to offwidth and they feel just like
> real rock.

What is ironic, I mean really ironic, is that is the very gym I was thinking of when I said gym cracks
don't translate well.

DMT

bill folk

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Nov 5, 2001, 7:16:43 PM11/5/01
to

"Olga Chotinun" <ol...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dd15d8f2.01110...@posting.google.com...

> BTW: I am still waiting for a list of things to do for a week in Yosemite
> Valley if the person doesn't lead, so that the proper crack technique is
> learned.

I thought Dingus answered this. I saw a post by him that was pretty much
exactly what I would have told you, so I didn't reply. Anyway, if a person
doesn't lead (why not?), find someone who does. Go to camp 4 and meet
someone, hire Karl, call me, I'd love to go to the valley for a week and get
to do all the leading.

I think a lot of gym climbers are overawed by outdoor climbing. A woman I
work with climbs at the gym with het husband. She was amazed to find that I
climbed outside ("don't you get scared?") I offered to take them outside,
and she was worried that they weren't "ready". They've both been climbing
over a year.

Here's my story. After my first day of climbing, I hitchhiked to Squamish
and met random partners at the campground or at the crag. After 2 weeks I
was leading 5.8 and following 10b crack. I've never been accused of being
particularly fit or talented; if I can do it, anyone can. Oh, and at that
time I believe there was only one gym in the country, (City Rock) and I had
never been there.

> My other <less important> point was that following a lot of trad pitches
> (as opposed to practicing on the toprope climbs) might not be very useful
> because lieback or face moves can be used to avoid the crack on more
moderate
> cracks, since the speed is the game when following mulitpitch.

If you're doing the DNB, sure, but come on, for most people being benighted
on Munginella is not a real worry. Take your time and climb the crack
properly. Following a lot of trad pitches is _absolutely_ the best way to
become a good trad leader. You don't learn gear placement skills on a gym
crack, and the ability to place good gear is what's going to give you the
confidence to push yourself on lead. You certainly don't learn all the weird
funkiness that many Yosemite cracks require. You just learn how plug in jams
and climb it like a ladder. Great for Indian Creek, but less useful for the
Valley.

> In my experience even leading many 5.7 cracks doesn't really require good
> jamming technique.

Right, so why would anyone need to train on gym cracks 2-3 times a week for
several months to do so?

> Obviously, as the post below indicates, liebacking crack or offwith is
useless
> when leading,

It is often difficult to place pro from a lieback, but that is very
different from saying that liebacking is "useless for leading". There are
many routes for which liebacking is the best technique, on lead or
otherwise.

My partner yesterday led 5.8 crack on his second trip to the valley. That
was after he lead his first 5.9. He's been climbing 9 months. He refuses to
climb in the gym. He places solid gear (he learned by following lots of trad
pitches), and he goes for it.

Laps on gym cracks are great, as Brutus pointed out, for training for steep
enduro outdoor cracks. I try to finish every gym workout with a few crack
laps. They may even help a novice learn the basics of crack technique. But
as you pointed out, you don't need great crack technique for easy cracks.
You do need solid gear placement skills to push yourself on lead, however,
and the gym does nothing at all in that regard.

Bill


Olga

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 7:40:24 PM11/5/01
to

Dingus Milktoast <crha...@midtown.net> wrote:
>Olga Chotinun wrote:
>
>> My other <less important> point was that following a lot of trad
>pitches
>> (as opposed to practicing on the toprope climbs) might not be
>very useful
>> because lieback or face moves can be used to avoid the crack on
>more moderate
>> cracks, since the speed is the game when following mulitpitch.
>
>I don't agree with this. Mileage is exactly what the Dr. ordered.
>And I don't care how you climb those
>cracks... just climb them.

I disargee <as always, can't agree with Dignus>.
When I first complained about having problems with cracks to one
prominent rec.climber (who is now against gym cracks) 2 years ago,
that person told me to go do gym cracks. "Nonsense" - said my all-trad
husband, - "it's all in the mileage!". Being naive and in love I
decided to forget the gym crack (on which I could at best do 2 moves)
and just follow pitches of classing cracks. Had I listened to that
rec.climber I would have learned jamming much sooner! Not that I am
a perfect crack climber now, but doing that gym crack 10 times total
worked wonders.

>> In my experience even leading many 5.7 cracks doesn't really require
>good
>> jamming technique.
>
>See Olga? You're doing it, even sitting at your keyboard. Doing
>that is... is making the faulty assumption
>that the CORRECT way to climb a crack is by jamming. IT AIN'T TRUE!
>The correct way up a crack, any crack,
>absent any ridiculously competitive rules assigned by evil locals,
>is the easy way. If the easy way calls
>for liebacks or the (gasp!) use of a face hold or two, than so be
>it.

Yes, that's a good point. However once I learned to jam, same climbs
seem not only easier, but the moves are much more secure. Sometimes
following I could get away with dicey face moves that felt like I was
going to come off, where as jams on the same sections felt solid.
I agree that on some climbs it's easier not stem, lieback, use face,
etc. etc. But see, you can tell what's easier because you know all
those techniques, for me the face move/liebacks were only easier
because I couldn't stay in the crack. I really liked your "take your
head out of your ass" remark, I agree it's important to use imagination,
climbing is a mental sport.

>> Obviously, as the post below indicates, liebacking crack or offwith
>is useless
>> when leading,
>
>Don't let the hardcore bastards wear you down Olga. I'd like to
>see someone lead the Good Book without
>liebacking! The last OW I led included several lieback moves. Whatever's
>easier!

I found that butt & hip jams are way superious than liebacks!
For the first time I had advantage over my bony partner! 8-)
Yep, sometimes having some padding comes handy! One other time
it came in handy is when I once took a ground fall before clipping
the first bolt @ Smith.

>> He suggested for us to
>> try the Sacramento gym to learn all posible crack techniques.
>He said they had
>> all sorts of beautiful cracks finger tips to offwidth and they
>feel just like
>> real rock.
>
>What is ironic, I mean really ironic, is that is the very gym I
>was thinking of when I said gym cracks
>don't translate well.

This is just great! And Karin was thinking that maybe this old hardman
was you, Dignus, playing with our minds...

Olga
Olga Chotinun

Olga

unread,
Nov 5, 2001, 8:17:36 PM11/5/01
to

"bill folk" <wf...@pacbell.net> wrote:
..

>I thought Dingus answered this. I saw a post by him that was pretty
>much exactly what I would have told you, so I didn't reply.
>Anyway, if a person
>doesn't lead (why not?), find someone who does. Go to camp 4 and
>meet someone, hire Karl, call me, I'd love to go to the valley for a
>week and get to do all the leading.

Well, many people nowdays who start at the gym are different.
I am not saying it's good or bad, but this is the fact.
My only point was that if one chooses this approach for whatever
reason, they CAN succede. Again, I made no argument that this was
the best approach.

BTW: I made a search on Deja and found another thread about learing
cracks in Yosemite started by Sumo in the spring. Most of the
advise gived was about climbs I have followed w/o having any
knowledge how to jam or lieback. The ony ones I had serious problems
on was Positively Fourth Street (lieback) and Jamcrack (handjams)

That said I agree with you 100% that some poeople spend way too much
time at the gym before they are "ready" to move outside, and think
they have to be solid on gym 5.10s before they can lead.
I am still not solid on gym 5.10 and I am not afraid to lead, not
even if I fall on the climbs of the same grade on toprope.

..

..

>properly. Following a lot of trad pitches is _absolutely_ the best
>way to
>become a good trad leader. You don't learn gear placement skills
>on a gym
>crack, and the ability to place good gear is what's going to give
>you the
>confidence to push yourself on lead.

Very true! For leading following many pitches was very useful,
I was very comfortable with gear placements, rope handling, anchors,
exposure, etc. etc. I just didn't learn to jam properly...
And even so, I argue that w/o following many pitches one can still
just take a lead class and start leading especially if one has
jamming wired.

>You certainly don't learn all
>the weird
>funkiness that many Yosemite cracks require. You just learn how
>plug in jams
>and climb it like a ladder. Great for Indian Creek, but less useful
>for the Valley.

Yes but then you will start leading and learn all the rest, and get
mileage leading. There are tons of nw climbers who trained on
gym cracks, took a lead class/ read a book and then started leading.
Among the ones I know many are leading 5.9 and 5.10 within first year.

>> In my experience even leading many 5.7 cracks doesn't really
>> require good jamming technique.

>Right, so why would anyone need to train on gym cracks 2-3 times
>a week for
>several months to do so?

I find that many climbers I meet have different "safety threshold"
than I. They really need to feel solid on a grade before they lead.
Besides, not jamming can get you in trouble on some 5.7's, so if
you like leading onsigh (like I do) it's better to make sure you
have enough skills to lead ALL 5.7s

>> Obviously, as the post below indicates, liebacking crack or offwith
>is useless
>> when leading,
>
>It is often difficult to place pro from a lieback, but that is very
>different from saying that liebacking is "useless for leading".
>There are
>many routes for which liebacking is the best technique, on lead
>or otherwise.

Sorry, I take it back. Of course there are climbs you have to lieback.
Positively 4-th street (first pitch), Crescent Arch, Commitment
(last pitch),... But it's really hard to place gear and either there
are good stances like on Positively 4th street, or sometimes leaders
just place a lot of gear and "go for it". Well, if it's the only
or the easist way, then for sure it's not useless, but for offwidth
(the example we were talking about) sometimes the only placements
are deep inside, so at some point a leader needs to get inside.
Howevr as Dignus correctly pointed out, sometimes the easiest way
is to do a few lieback moves in between plaments. So "useless" was
a bad thing for me to say. It can make a perfectly straightforward
climb very difficult though.

>My partner yesterday led 5.8 crack on his second trip to the valley.
>That was after he lead his first 5.9. He's been climbing 9 months. He
>refuses to
>climb in the gym. He places solid gear (he learned by following
>lots of trad pitches), and he goes for it.

Well, again, I don't think it's a competition who starts leading
5.9 faster. Neither am I saying climbing cracks at the gym is a
requirement or the fastest way to learn. What I am saying is very
different: I am disputing the traditionalist view that the only way
to become a good trad leader is to go and second a lot of pitches on
real rock.

Yes, training for 2 years at the gym might seem stupid to you, but
if in a year same person can lead same climbs you do, who cares how
they got to this point and how long it took? What matters is that
they are safe climbers who respect environment and other climbers.

>Laps on gym cracks are great, as Brutus pointed out, for training
>for steep
>enduro outdoor cracks. I try to finish every gym workout with a
>few crack laps. They may even help a novice learn the basics of
> crack technique. But
>as you pointed out, you don't need great crack technique for easy
>cracks.
>You do need solid gear placement skills to push yourself on lead,
>however, and the gym does nothing at all in that regard.

100% agree with you on this one. gym is only for pure physical
movement training, and might not be the most efficient way to go
even for that. Still, for whatever reason that's how many climbers
start these days, and they do become good trad leaders.

Olga
Olga Chotinun

bill folk

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Nov 5, 2001, 9:16:30 PM11/5/01
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"Olga" <ol...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3be73a30$1...@eCompute.org...

> And even so, I argue that w/o following many pitches one can still
> just take a lead class and start leading especially if one has
> jamming wired

You can't learn to place good gear in one lead class. Mileage following,
followed by mileage on easy climbs with an experienced second to critique
are important. And the knowldge that your gear is good will give you the
confidence to climb hard above it.

> mileage leading. There are tons of nw climbers who trained on
> gym cracks, took a lead class/ read a book and then started leading.
> Among the ones I know many are leading 5.9 and 5.10 within first year.

Sure, I know people like that. Some of them even place good gear. But they
are the exception. I'll crag with that sort of climber, even do low
commitment multi pitch, but that's it.

> I am disputing the traditionalist view that the only way
> to become a good trad leader is to go and second a lot of pitches on
> real rock.

You can learn to jam in the gym. That is one of the many skills involved in
being a good trad leader. You can't learn gear placement, how to properly
sling your gear so it stays put and you can move at the top of a pitch,
routefinding, how to build a solid anchor quickly, how to avoid getting your
rope stuck on rappel, how to free it if it gets stuck, how to go up and get
it if you can't free it, how to change over at belays quickly and
efficiently, how to judge the weather, how to judge the rock, and a dozen
other skills. Those skills take mileage on the rock to develop. Gym cracks
are fine as an adjunct to outside experience. No way are they a substitute.
And reading about them in a book isn't either.

Bill


Olga

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Nov 5, 2001, 9:43:09 PM11/5/01
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"bill folk" <wf...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>"Olga" <ol...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:3be73a30$1...@eCompute.org...
>
>> And even so, I argue that w/o following many pitches one can still
>> just take a lead class and start leading especially if one has
>> jamming wired
>
>You can't learn to place good gear in one lead class. Mileage following,
>followed by mileage on easy climbs with an experienced second to
>critique
>are important. And the knowldge that your gear is good will give
>you the
>confidence to climb hard above it.

Wait a minute! You just said that those newbies w/o experienced
ropegun should just start leading instead of training at the gym!
Now you are saying that even a lead class is not enough, and one must
follow a lot of pitches (my husband says 15 pitches to be excact)
Don't you find your advice to newby leaders at least a little bit
contradictory?

..


>Sure, I know people like that. Some of them even place good gear.
>But they
>are the exception. I'll crag with that sort of climber, even do
>low commitment multi pitch, but that's it.

But this is no problem, now that they started leading they will get
the mileage. I am sure you were also at some point not trustworthy
enough to swap leads on long multipitch climbs. Once you start leading
it's not hard to find someone who follows and cleans, so problem
solved. Of course you progress much faster if you get to follow
harder pitches than what you can lead.

>> I am disputing the traditionalist view that the only way
>> to become a good trad leader is to go and second a lot of pitches
>on
>> real rock.
>
>You can learn to jam in the gym. That is one of the many skills
>involved in being a good trad leader. You can't learn gear
>placement, how to properly sling your gear so it stays put and
>you can move at the top of a pitch,
>routefinding, how to build a solid anchor quickly, how to avoid
>getting your rope stuck on rappel, how to free it if it gets stuck,
>how to go up and get
>it if you can't free it, how to change over at belays quickly and
>efficiently, how to judge the weather, how to judge the rock, and
>a dozen other skills. Those skills take mileage on the rock to
>develop. Gym cracks are fine as an adjunct to outside experience.
>No way are they a substitute.
>And reading about them in a book isn't either.

I agree 100%, but we all have to start somewhere. And a person with
no experienced friends has to start to leading, maybe after paying
a guide for a while following few pitches. You yourself started
leading w/o having most of the skills above. The main difference is
that the gym climber will have learned some jamming, got stronger
and more confident physically, so he/she doesn't have to worry about
this part when starting to lead. We don't have that many easy climbs
around here to go play on w/o worrying about technical difficulty.
I consider it a new acceptable way to go about becoming independent
climber. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have experienced
friends, social enough to meet people or rich enough to hire guides.

Women have additional problems of never being sure what that
experienced guy wants. And believe me: for a woman it's much harder
to meet women climbers who would take her up stuff than to meet a
guy like that. I am a member of the Sheclimbs Bay Area and with
few exceptions it's mostly experienced climbers climbing with other
experienced climbers.

If I tell all those women who want to start leading: "go to Camp 4
and find some one to take u up stuff", I don't think I will get a
good reaction. I guess people are not as adventurous these days.

I know the value of learning the traditional way, but at the same time
I am realistic and understand that times change, and it's the end
result which is important.

Olga
Olga Chotinun

bill folk

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Nov 5, 2001, 10:53:17 PM11/5/01
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"Olga" <ol...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3be74e3d$1...@eCompute.org...

> Wait a minute! You just said that those newbies w/o experienced
> ropegun should just start leading instead of training at the gym!
> Now you are saying that even a lead class is not enough, and one must
> follow a lot of pitches (my husband says 15 pitches to be excact)
> Don't you find your advice to newby leaders at least a little bit
> contradictory?

You are putting worlds in my mouth! I said (I assume this is what you are
talking about) "Anyway, if a person doesn't lead (why not?), find someone
who does." My "why not?" is a serious question. Why would someone not lead?
Maybe because leading trad is not something you can learn in the gym. That
was my point. I was not suggesting that someone go straight from REI to the
valley and start leading. I do think that after a little instruction and
exposure to good gear placement, novices should start leading as soon as
they have the inclination, on climbs that they are not going to fall on,
which take good gear, with an experienced second to critique their
placements. Whether that's after five climbs, or fifteen, or fifty is up to
the individual, but you can't learn to place gear without placing it. It's
just that without an experienced second, you may not be learning to place
_good_ gear.

> I agree 100%, but we all have to start somewhere. And a person with
> no experienced friends has to start to leading, maybe after paying
> a guide for a while following few pitches. You yourself started
> leading w/o having most of the skills above. The main difference is
> that the gym climber will have learned some jamming, got stronger
> and more confident physically, so he/she doesn't have to worry about
> this part when starting to lead. We don't have that many easy climbs
> around here to go play on w/o worrying about technical difficulty.
> I consider it a new acceptable way to go about becoming independent
> climber. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have experienced
> friends, social enough to meet people or rich enough to hire guides.

Maybe it would be possible to reinvent trad climbing in a vacuum with a
couple of books and a gym crack, but I just don't see the point. We read
about people who take the vacuum approach in the NPS report all the time,
benighted on Braille Book, stranded on the Arches raps, scraping their
remains up from the bottom of a cliff after they rap off the ends of their
ropes. Talk to someone from YOSAR and see what they have to say about that
approach. On a personal note, I never had an alpine mentor. I learned about
climbing mountains by reading books and then going and climbing stuff. I
took the vacuum approach. It worked fine for years, I got up lots of stuff,
but in the end it didn't serve me very well.

You make some good points. As a tool to get to the level where you can get
experienced people to climb with you, it's a distant second to a mentor, but
okay, if you live long enough, it can work. But that should be the goal: to
get into the climbing mainstream, to climb with lots of other experienced
climbers and to continue learning, not to remain in a hermetic little world
with a circle of gym-trained friends. If Sheclimbs is mostly experienced
climbers, tell all those women who want to start leading to join a Sheclimbs
trip. There are several climbing clubs in the Bay Area, for example everyone
I know who is involved with Rock Rendezvous is very skilled and experienced.
Sure, they mostly prefer doing harder climbs with more experienced climbers,
but some are generous, some are desperate for a partner. I never said it
would be easy. I'm not a very sociable person, but in Squamish I forced
myself to walk up to perfect strangers and ask if I could climb with them
because I wanted to learn. Like I said, if I can do it, anyone can. And if
someone is completely lacking in a sense of adventure, has no money, and
can't bring themselves to introduce themselves to strangers, they probably
shouldn't take up climbing anyway!

Bill


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