Grigri just extra weight?
Geo Day
worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs every
piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
much gear he has? What do you think?
EXCLR8
<><
John Laughlin
It's not recommended for trad climbing.
For alpine climbing it would certainly be considered extra weight by most.
It's a good item to have, but you probably won't use it for everything.
John
Geo Day <dd...@NOvciSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:wbF34.92942$7I4.2...@news5.giganews.com...
David Paul
crowd.
Taking it up for lead climbing can be questionable when a figure 8 is both
decender and belay plate. Esp, when it is not foolproof.
Geo Day wrote in message ...
Rex Pieper
> Is the grigri just an expensive piece of over glorified equipment or is it
> worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs every
> piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
> much gear he has? What do you think?
I think you're a moron.
-Rex Pieper
p.s. and a very piss poor troll
remove ".XSPAM" from signature to reply
Ben
rec.climbing used to be nice but now that you and Brent Ware are know
it alls you bite peoples heads off for asking simple questions! Now to
the question, i don't like the GriGri for lead balaying but it is handy
to have. its nice for top roping and rapping a single line (like for
soloing) but if you are worried about weight then leave it at home.
don't trust it too much to automaticly lock i have seen 2 cases where
it has failed (after getting droped in the dirt by kids).
--
Happy climbing
Ben
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Keith Jewell
>
> Is the grigri just an expensive piece of over glorified equipment or is it
> worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs every
> piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
> much gear he has? What do you think?
>
Fisher-Boy.
K
Wade Lippman
mp...@my-deja.com
pointless, stupid, pieces of gear that cost 5 times as much as better,
lighter, more sensible products. Until I got one. I am a strictly trad
climber and I carry a grigri and an ATC. When belaying a leader, the Gri-gri
is no good. I've tried it and i hate it. Belaying a second directly off the
anchor, however, is awsome with the grigri... And, since it's self locking,
if you carry a small ascender, you can make a simple one way 3:1 haul off of
the grigri in less than a minute... Just put the ascender on the tensioned
(climbers) line, then take the slack (belayers) rope and run it through a
biner on the ascender... voila! perfect if you climb with partners who cannot
second the stuff you lead... when it gets tough, you can haul 'em through the
cruxes.....
Mikko Routala
lunch or digging up your Mr. Wiggly to release some pressure out of your
peetank - belaying all the time. It sure is worth $$$!
Geo Day wrote:
> Is the grigri just an expensive piece of over glorified equipment or is it
> worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs every
> piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
> much gear he has? What do you think?
>
> EXCLR8
> <><
Geo Day
"Rex Pieper" <madb...@aol.com.XSPAM> wrote in message
news:19991209024923...@ng-da1.aol.com...
> Geo Day <dd...@NOvciSPAM.net> wrote:
>
> > Is the grigri just an expensive piece of over glorified equipment or is
it
> > worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs
every
> > piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
> > much gear he has? What do you think?
>
>
Andy Gale
Geo Day wrote:
> Is the grigri just an expensive piece of over glorified equipment or is it
> worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs every
> piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
> much gear he has? What do you think?
>
I think that if you have to ask this question than you are clearly one of the
"green climbers" of which you speak.
Andy
--
******************************************************************
Andrew Gale The Scripps Research Institute
ag...@scripps.edu La Jolla, CA
******************************************************************
Geo Day
piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or an ATC
or even a few carbiners etc.. I was climbing last week and saw a group of
beginners who obviously had tons of money, standing around a 40 ft bolted
route with cams, nuts, pitons and every other piece of gear you can think of
hanging from their harnesses. Maybe they were strength training using their
racks for extra weight. They all had grigris also. I have been mentored by
some old timers who stress learning to use your gear as efficiently as
possible. Also, they stress that the more simple your gear, the fewer
problems you will have. I wonder if two of those people went climbing and
both forgot their grigri, would they have to cancel the trip or would they
know other ways of topropping, etc.? Did not mean to offend some of you
people. :0)
EXCLR8
<><
"Geo Day" <dd...@NOvciSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:wbF34.92942$7I4.2...@news5.giganews.com...
> Is the grigri just an expensive piece of over glorified equipment or is it
> worth having? Can this piece be left to the green climber who hangs every
> piece of gear from his harness when eating lunch so everyone can see how
> much gear he has? What do you think?
>
> EXCLR8
> <><
>
>
John Holladay
subject to extended 'conversations' and going off on tangents. All
"newsgroups" are an interesting animals that have a life of their own
and not necessarily explained by good sense or reason. We all
contributor to this mess (a slight comment can bring out a ton of
mail) so expect to stir things up every time you post - regardless of
your intent.
Got to be HARD to play in any newsgroup - why, just because.
JNH
brent ware
Ben <benb...@aol.com> writes:
> I think your a BASTARD Rex. it was a simple question! everybody on
> rec.climbing used to be nice but now that you and Brent Ware are know
> it alls you bite peoples heads off for asking simple questions! Now to
> the question, i don't like the GriGri for lead balaying but it is handy
> to have. its nice for top roping and rapping a single line (like for
> soloing) but if you are worried about weight then leave it at home.
> don't trust it too much to automaticly lock i have seen 2 cases where
> it has failed (after getting droped in the dirt by kids).
Plonk.
Dan Goodman
>
> IMHO the grigri is great for top-roping especially with the less experienced
> crowd.
> Taking it up for lead climbing can be questionable when a figure 8 is both
> decender and belay plate. Esp, when it is not foolproof.
No belay device is foolproof. Only fools think there are
foolproof pieces of climbing equipment.
Engineers and product designers are busy trying to make
"bigger and better" foolproof devices at the same time
Nature is making bigger and better fools.
Dan Goodman
Inez Drixelius
<dan_g...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com> wrote:
> No belay device is foolproof. Only fools think there are
> foolproof pieces of climbing equipment.
My objection to the grigri isn't the device itself as much as the poor
belaying habits it creates. I have seen too many belayers (in the gym)
simply letting go of the brake altogether and just standing there and only
operating the grigri when the leader moves. Sure, the grigri is
supposedly fool proof, but what happens to that breed of casual belayers
when they have to use a conventional belay device? Will they let go of
the brake because this is what they habitually do with the grigri?
I have used the grigri on a wall and found it to be invaluable for obvious
reasons already stated in this thread. I never use it in the gym, except
for that rare occasion when a partner wants me to use it. Even with the
grigri I use the same belay technique as I do with my convential device.
I find fussing with the grigri AND its weight annoying most of the time.
When I sold all my wall gear to Brutus of Wyde the grigri was part and
parcel of his purchase.
Inez
God save me from grigri-casual belayers!
--
Inez Drixelius
Berkeley, California
Benoit Hudson
> My objection to the grigri isn't the device itself as much as the poor
> belaying habits it creates. I have seen too many belayers (in the gym)
> simply letting go of the brake altogether and just standing there and only
> operating the grigri when the leader moves. Sure, the grigri is
> supposedly fool proof, but what happens to that breed of casual belayers
> when they have to use a conventional belay device? Will they let go of
> the brake because this is what they habitually do with the grigri?
The two gyms I go to both have the ropes set up with grigris, so that's what
everyone uses. I went out climbing with a bunch of guys I met at the gym; they
seemed fine, and could belay as well as anybody. When I got to the top, all of
the sudden it turns out my belayer didn't know how to use an ATC; his friends
(luckily there were there!) had to shout 'off belay' to me, while I was
standing on a 6-inch ledge, and explain to him how he should actually be using
it. Now this guy's habits in the gym were perfectly fine -- locking off and so
on; dunno why he couldn't handle an ATC.
Similarly, last night I saw a woman belaying someone and doing the whole
hand-switch thing you have to knock out of first-time belayers. She won't have
a problem as long as she's using a grigri; but her partner would be thrice-dead
if they ever tried anything else (not to mention she'd lose a few fingers in
the ATC).
So the answer is that yes, lazy belaying gives bad habits.
-- Benoit
Michael E. Gordon
cannot
> second the stuff you lead... when it gets tough, you can haul 'em through
the
> cruxes.....
Shouldn't you make the follower do the work? Let 'em prusik it!
Matthew Buckle
Dan Goodman <dan_g...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:385012B1...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com...
>
> No belay device is foolproof. Only fools think there are
> foolproof pieces of climbing equipment.
>
exactly. a gri-gri may be idiot-resistant, but it is certainly not
idiot-proof.
A few years back when I was mostly climbing with friends who I dragged out
and taught to belay me, I did appreciate the extra margin of safety I
considered a gri-gri to afford, but I would prefer an experienced belayer
anyday.
Matt
--
Matthew Buckle
http://www3.telus.net/mbuckle/matt_climb.html
Dingus Milktoast
An essential tool in the pot-head climber's arsenal. Just
look at how much safer it is to indulge while on belay!
DMT
John Byrnes
> I am a strictly trad
> climber and I carry a grigri and an ATC. When belaying a leader, the Gri-gri
> is no good. I've tried it and i hate it.
Even though I'd never carry two belay devices, I agree with you that
using a Gri-gri to belay a leader is a PITA.
Maybe I'm a klutz, but I can't get the rope through the Gri-gri
fast enough for a fast clip. I hate being short-roped, so I get
really wrought if I short rope my leader. (I can get the rope out
fast if I hold it open, but I won't do that.) So gimme an ATC-like
device anyday.
- Lord Slime
Rex Pieper
> I think your a BASTARD Rex. it was a simple question! everybody on
> rec.climbing used to be nice but now that you and Brent Ware are know
> it alls you bite peoples heads off for asking simple questions!
Hey twatface, if you'd been around on the n.g. longer than 6 months
you'd realize by now that this place has NEVER been "nice". I doubt
calling someone a moron for posting an obviously bias troll on a
subject that's hashed out here every 3.5 months, is "biting someone's
head off"...but if you'd like to continue this, I'll gladly demonstrate on
you.
-Rex Pieper
Wade Lippman
Shanti
through the Gri-Gri fast enough for the leader to clip either. I like it for
walls if I'm belaying for a loooong time, otherwise it's just heavy and a pain in
the ass. Sometimes I'll use it when I'm belaying someone who outweighs me by alot
-- I just feel safer...for no good reason probably, but I weigh like 108lbs and
most of my climbing partners weigh 50lbs+ more than me.
P.S. I really like it that basically everyone on rec.climbing is a moron.
Chris Wegener
"Dan Goodman" <dan_g...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:385012B1...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com...
> >
> > IMHO the grigri is great for top-roping especially with the less
experienced
> > crowd.
> > Taking it up for lead climbing can be questionable when a figure 8 is
both
> > decender and belay plate. Esp, when it is not foolproof.
>
> foolproof pieces of climbing equipment.
>
> "bigger and better" foolproof devices at the same time
> Nature is making bigger and better fools.
>
> Dan Goodman
Nothing can be made foolproof, because fools are so ingenious.
Chris
Montanagirl
name....not that that really matters.....I still don't like the Gri-Gri.
P.S. I'm sure this is a really lame question, but once you've modified a Gri-Gri for
rope-soloing (not to bring up that topic AGAIN) do you think it is safe to use
belaying still -- does it damage it integrity-wise? I mean if I kill myself
rope-soloing with it that's one thing, but if I take out a partner that's another
(depending on the partner I suppose).
Geo Day
two reasons. 1. there is always some good info on here. 2. there is always
interesting conversation also. If you can't take the heat get out of the
fireplace.
EXCLR8
"Inez Drixelius" <inez...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:inezdrex-091...@goodman5.lsa.berkeley.edu...
> In article <385012B1...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com>, Dan Goodman
> <dan_g...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> > No belay device is foolproof. Only fools think there are
> > foolproof pieces of climbing equipment.
>
> My objection to the grigri isn't the device itself as much as the poor
> belaying habits it creates. I have seen too many belayers (in the gym)
> simply letting go of the brake altogether and just standing there and only
> operating the grigri when the leader moves. Sure, the grigri is
> supposedly fool proof, but what happens to that breed of casual belayers
> when they have to use a conventional belay device? Will they let go of
> the brake because this is what they habitually do with the grigri?
>
Greg Daughtry
Gripping it like a pistol and pointing it to the ground when yarding helps.
Squeezing the cam from underneath the device helps, and is less dangerous
than on top of the cam.
Clipping it to a belay loop (as opposed to biner through waist and leg
loops) helps to keep the device upright.
If you have a fat rope, and need slack pronto, you sometimes have to put
your finger on top of the cam. A light touch here goes a long way, and you
have to train your reflexes to remove that finger when done.
Finally, a gri-gri can still lock off, if your belayer is knocked out by
rockfall. A distinct advantage over a conventional device.
I don't believe that the gri-gri CAUSES poor belay technique, but it
certainly doesn't punish bad technique like a normal friction device does.
Therefore it gets a bad rap.
I'll keep mine, thank you...
'Greg
Portland, OR
Shanti wrote in message...
>I'm glad you mentioned that klutz thing there -- I can't ever get the damn
rope
>through the Gri-Gri fast enough for the leader to clip either. I like it
for
-snip
Keith Jewell
> Clipping it [the Gri-Gri] to a belay loop (as opposed to biner through waist and leg
> loops) helps to keep the device upright.
>
Clipping a biner through both leg loop and waist sets it up for
three-way (tri-axial) loading. Through belay loop, or waist, only with
a large biner lets the gri orient itself when weighted.
K
Keith Jewell
Before this gets out of hand (or maybe that's what you wanted) by
your act of insulting two long term and knowledgeable contributors to
this group, let me tell a story.
I scoffed and laughed at using a Gri-Gri for a number of years for very
much the same reasons as you mentioned. In my book, it was the perfect
poser/newbie device, not be used by a "serious" climber. That laughter
and scoffing of mine was based on my own ignorance. The gri has it's
place, and it's a fine device for particular situations. As others have
pointed out, it has some drawbacks for other situations. Experience is
needed to know what those situations are.
K
Andy Gale
GeoffCJ wrote:
> >> Maybe I'm a klutz, but I can't get the rope through the Gri-gri
> >> fast enough for a fast clip. I hate being short-roped, so I get
> >> really wrought if I short rope my leader. (I can get the rope out
> >> fast if I hold it open, but I won't do that.) So gimme an ATC-like
> >> device anyday.
> >>
> >> - Lord Slime
>
> I agree, it's tough to feed one fast enough. I like them when I'm toproping
> with inexperieced partners, and for aid, for all else they aren't worth it. I
> still haven't bought one, got a lot fo things higher on my "to buy" list....
> =>
> geoff
I also like it when I am belaying Brent on some "project" sport route that he is
doggin' his way up. Man, when that guy is working a route the belayer gets a
workout also.
Geo Day
I like you. You are persistent and honest, two good qualities.
"Rex Pieper" <madb...@aol.com.XSPAM> wrote in message
news:19991209224621...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
> "Geo Day" <dd...@NOvciSPAM.net> wrote:
>
> >When I posted this I knew I was going to get ripped. I read this group
for
> >two reasons. 1. there is always some good info on here. 2. there is
always
> >interesting conversation also.
>
> Which is EXACTLY why I called you a troll. And a moron...can't forget
> that part.
soli...@my-deja.com
If someone is hang-dogging a route, it gives the opportunity for the
belayer to completely relax his hands during rests.
It is also nice because it will hold a person of any weight, without
strain on any part of the belayer but the part of the harness near his
crotch.
If you get proficient with the device, you can feed out slack lightning
fast, and you can use it for self belay.
It's not very good for trad climbing, because the instant stopping
power of the device can add extra force to the piece being fallen on.
The Gri-Gri is by far my favorite belay device, but I don't own one and
probably never will unless the price comes down quite a bit, or I get a
lot richer.
I forget who makes it, but someone just came out with a different,
simpler self-locking belay device that is not so user friendly, but
retails for around thirty bucks, and comes with a good locking 'biner.
(PS what is this "troll" label everyone is throwing around?)
benc...@my-deja.com
great they are, but a Trango Jaws is alot cheaper and also locks off
just as good with the larger wall ropes. Plus, if you drop it, it will
only cost 15 bucks to replace.
Ben
benc...@my-deja.com
GaryFike
<dd...@NOvciSPAM.net> writes:
>Ok I guess I stirred it up in here a little. I know the grigri is a good
>piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or an ATC
>or even a few carbiners etc..
Wrong. Maybe that's why they're so expensive?
> I was climbing last week and saw a group of
>beginners who obviously had tons of money, standing around a 40 ft bolted
>route with cams, nuts, pitons and every other piece of gear you can think of
>hanging from their harnesses. Maybe they were strength training using their
>racks for extra weight. They all had grigris also.
Are you a logician? If all rich newbies have grigris then grigris must suck?
I have been mentored by
>some old timers who stress learning to use your gear as efficiently as
>possible. Also, they stress that the more simple your gear, the fewer
>problems you will have.
Did they also stress that the simpler you are the less you judge other people
by your standards?
>I wonder if two of those people went climbing and
>both forgot their grigri, would they have to cancel the trip or would they
>know other ways of topropping, etc.?
Dunno. Ask them. Why does it matter to you?
>Did not mean to offend some of you people.
Uh, yes you did. But that's all right. We're offensible.
"Go Grigri...the belay device of choice"
Griy
GeoffCJ
Rex Pieper
Dave Andersen
> Ok I guess I stirred it up in here a little. I know the grigri is a good
> piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or an ATC
WTF are you smoking?
First, you *ask* if the grigri is useful, then you answer your own
question as through you know the correct answer, and you're bloody wrong.
A grigri gains you a lot. The least of which is the ability to survive
a fall where you land on your belayer and knock them unconscious. See the
rec.climbing archives for the narration of that one, it's fairly
compelling. You also get a free hand. You also get a piece of gear which
can potentially teach bad habits, and can be deadly if you thread the rope
incorrectly, and, and, and.
Hopefully, you get out of this flamefest a clue, a strong desire to
avoid trolling in the future, and the sensible idea that you should search
deja.com before asking a question. You'll find a lot of discussion about
this questions, and probably many others which you might have.
-Dave
--
work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com
MIT Laboratory for Computer Science http://www.angio.net/
Rex Pieper
>Grigri is an expensive piece of junk. Some aiders go on and on how
>great they are, but a Trango Jaws is alot cheaper and also locks off
>just as good with the larger wall ropes.
Not if you're knocked out. Plus you can haul ass while jugging the
line using it instead of backtying. Furthermore, once the line's fixed
you're ON belay if you were belaying the leader w/ the grigri. Don't
even bother pulling it off, just take out slack, slap on your jumars and
you're ready to break down the majority of the anchor before your
partner has the pigs ready to haul. You can leave the station in 1 to
2 minutes after the pigs lift off.
>Plus, if you drop it, it will only cost 15 bucks to replace.
Drill a tiny hole in the PLASTIC bottom near the clip in hole, thread
with 2mm perlon keeper sling. No more worries about dropping it.
-Rex "one of the 'Know-It-All' brothers" Pieper
Ben Craft
> benc...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >Grigri is an expensive piece of junk. Some aiders go on and on how
> >great they are, but a Trango Jaws is alot cheaper and also locks off
> >just as good with the larger wall ropes.
>
> Not if you're knocked out. Plus you can haul ass while jugging the
Been there done that. the Trango Jaws even holds if your using both hands
to bate to the mountain gods. Hell, one time I was so out of it, I
caught a large fall while I was sneaking some gatorade from the rations
and still had both hands free while he jugged back up to the piece.
> line using it instead of backtying. Furthermore, once the line's fixed
> you're ON belay if you were belaying the leader w/ the grigri. Don't
> even bother pulling it off, just take out slack, slap on your jumars and
> you're ready to break down the majority of the anchor before your
> partner has the pigs ready to haul. You can leave the station in 1 to
> 2 minutes after the pigs lift off.
I don't think either one of us is setting any records on the wall, so
don't starting rattling off numbers. I can hear the story, I have the
perfect system... I left every belay in 2 minutes, but it took me 10 days
to get up the wall.
Ben (not the other Ben)
cruxjam
"Greg Daughtry" <gregory.m...@intel.nospam.com> wrote:
>
> Finally, a gri-gri can still lock off, if your belayer is knocked out
by
> rockfall. A distinct advantage over a conventional device.
>
Brutus of Wyde
> The Gri-Gri is mostly a sport climbing device, and a darn good one.
I never use a grigri for sport leads. Much prefer a standard ATC
type device. Grigri is not quick enough in paying out slack for quick
clips, and cannot be used for double ropes, which I sometimes use
on sport climbs where groundfall may result from a fumbled clip.
(examples: Canatalope Death, Pinnacles NM; The Egg, Mickey's Beach)
> If someone is hang-dogging a route, it gives the opportunity for the
> belayer to completely relax his hands during rests.
It is OK for top-roping routes, imho.
> It's not very good for trad climbing, because the instant stopping
> power of the device can add extra force to the piece being fallen on.
It's not good for trad climbing because it weighs a ton, the leader
is usually moving faster than the belayer can pay out slack, it
cannot be used to belay with double rope technique, and cannot be
used to rappel two ropes. Any extra force on a marginal top piece
in a leader fall is a secondary consideration which can be dealt with
in other ways.
> The Gri-Gri is by far my favorite belay device, but I don't own one
> and probably never will unless the price comes down quite a bit, or I
> get a lot richer.
I own two, one of which I bought from Gnar-Gnar. Primary use is big
walls. Won't head up a wall without them. For reasons discussed
elsewhere in this thread.
> I forget who makes it, but someone just came out with a different,
> simpler self-locking belay device that is not so user friendly, but
> retails for around thirty bucks, and comes with a good locking 'biner.
Good locking carabiners are easy to find.
> (PS what is this "troll" label everyone is throwing around?)
Bad belay hobbits are hard to brake.
Brutus
Brutus of Wyde
> Been there done that. the Trango Jaws even holds if your using both
> hands to bate to the mountain gods. Hell, one time I was so out of
> it, I caught a large fall while I was sneaking some gatorade from the
> rations and still had both hands free while he jugged back up to the
> piece.
Ben, do YOU drop your belay devices? ;-)
Sneaking gatorade from the rations... That's low. I thought I was the
only one who did that.
Rex said:
> > line using it instead of backtying. Furthermore, once the line's
> > fixed you're ON belay if you were belaying the leader w/ the
> > grigri. Don't even bother pulling it off, just take out slack, slap
> > on your jumars and you're ready to break down the majority of the
> > anchor before your partner has the pigs ready to haul.
You don't break most of them down before your partner's off belay??
> > You can leave the station in 1 to 2 minutes after the pigs lift off.
> I don't think either one of us is setting any records on the wall, so
> don't starting rattling off numbers. I can hear the story, I have the
> perfect system... I left every belay in 2 minutes, but it took me 10
> days to get up the wall.
Yer both light. ;-)
Yeah, I own two grigris. Probably eventually try out a Jaws or whatever
other device is light and effective, particularly for backcountry walls.
More interested in spending my bucks right now on iceclimbing airline
tickets.
So in the meantime, grigris are cool.
Brutus [eight days car-to-car on a Grade V this summer] of Wyde
Kyri
"Geo Day" <dd...@vci.net> wrote:
> Ok I guess I stirred it up in here a little. I know the grigri is a
good
> piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or
an ATC
> or even a few carbiners etc..
If there is something you can set up with a figure eight, ATC, or
biners that will automatically lock when weighted even if the belayer
is knocked unconscious, I'd love to know what it is.
--Kyri (I hate belaying with Gri-Gri's in the gym though)
I was climbing last week and saw a group of
> beginners who obviously had tons of money, standing around a 40 ft
bolted
> route with cams, nuts, pitons and every other piece of gear you can
think of
> hanging from their harnesses.
p.s. Pitons would seem extreme for that setting, yes. Actually, I've
seen a lot of people lately dangling Tiblocs... what do you guys think
of those?
--K
--
These are my opinions and not necessarily those of my employers.
GeoffCJ
Rex,
Just curious..Do you forego tying in all together when using a grigir this way.
It's nice to have the rope start self feeding, butI admit to being a bit
paranoid.
=>
geoff
Dr.Dope
Kyri <catwom...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <6JS34.93556$7I4.2...@news5.giganews.com>,
> "Geo Day" <dd...@vci.net> wrote:
> > Ok I guess I stirred it up in here a little. I know the grigri is a
> good
> > piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or
> an ATC
> > or even a few carbiners etc..
>
> If there is something you can set up with a figure eight, ATC, or
> biners that will automatically lock when weighted even if the belayer
> is knocked unconscious, I'd love to know what it is.
Maybe you can rig an god ol prussik above the belay device.
Poor mans Gri-Gri?
Personally I like the Trango Pyramid and the Munter hitch for outdoors
sport and trad climbing, and the Gri-Gri for indoor climbing, except
maybe not for indoor lead climbing.
Erik
Rex Pieper
>Just curious..Do you forego tying in all together when using a grigir
>this way. It's nice to have the rope start self feeding, butI admit to
>being a bit paranoid.
You're always tied in to the ENDS of the rope, but nope, we don't tie
in short. Why wouldn't you trust it as YOUR belay, when you had just
been using it for your partner?
-Rex Pieper
mdboc...@my-deja.com
> I never use a grigri for sport leads. Much prefer a standard ATC
> type device. Grigri is not quick enough in paying out slack for quick
> clips,
Brutus, it takes some practice, but I find that I can pay out slack
more quickly with a Grigri than with any other device. Just cup the cam
closed with your right hand and pull the rope straight through with
your left. You can quickly pay out several armloads because you don't
have to mess with the brake side of the rope at all. Everybody I've
seen (including myself) has a problem short-roping their leader when
they first start out using a Grigri. I know you've been using them for
a while, but maybe you're not using the standard method (above) for
paying out slack?
>and cannot be used for double ropes, which I sometimes use
> on sport climbs where groundfall may result from a fumbled clip.
Yes, that's certainly a drawback. But I haven't personally seen many
sport routes that need double ropes.
Mark Bockmann
Kyri
Dr.Dope <e...@signal.uu.se> wrote:
> In article <82rgeg$95i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Kyri <catwom...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >
> > If there is something you can set up with a figure eight, ATC, or
> > biners that will automatically lock when weighted even if the
belayer
> > is knocked unconscious, I'd love to know what it is.
>
> Maybe you can rig an god ol prussik above the belay device.
> Poor mans Gri-Gri?
>
wouldn't it catch you, the belayer, but not the leader? If this has
been debated/discussed every 6 months since the birth of rec.climbing,
guys, just ignore me...
--Kyri "whoa, lookit all this GEER... whutsit fer??"
--
These are my opinions and not necessarily those of my employers.
Rex Pieper
>On 10 Dec 1999, Rex Pieper wrote:
>> Not if you're knocked out. Plus you can haul ass while jugging the
>Been there done that. the Trango Jaws even holds if your using both hands
>to bate to the mountain gods. Hell, one time I was so out of it, I
>caught a large fall while I was sneaking some gatorade from the rations
>and still had both hands free while he jugged back up to the piece.
Then you Ben are a fucking moron. You got lucky. So did your partner.
To let go of your brake hand when using a traditional ATC-like device
is INEXCUSABLE. Use a backup knot for godssake if you've gotta pee.
Want to maintain your devoutness to the Jaws when the belayer isn't
holding onto the rope? Let's go climbing and YOU can take ten 15'
lead falls while I belay you *you're way*. Put your money where your
mouth is.
>> line using it instead of backtying. Furthermore, once the line's fixed
>> you're ON belay if you were belaying the leader w/ the grigri. Don't
>> even bother pulling it off, just take out slack, slap on your jumars and
>> you're ready to break down the majority of the anchor before your
>> partner has the pigs ready to haul. You can leave the station in 1 to
>> 2 minutes after the pigs lift off.
>I don't think either one of us is setting any records on the wall, so
>don't starting rattling off numbers. I can hear the story, I have the
>perfect system... I left every belay in 2 minutes, but it took me 10 days
>to get up the wall.
Never said I was a speed demon, yet any tricks to make things go
faster are good things in my book. However Ben, try climbing something
harder than A1 before you strike that pose.
mdboc...@my-deja.com
> Maybe I'm a klutz, but I can't get the rope through the Gri-gri
> fast enough for a fast clip. I hate being short-roped, so I get
> really wrought if I short rope my leader. (I can get the rope out
> fast if I hold it open, but I won't do that.) So gimme an ATC-like
> device anyday.
>
> - Lord Slime
John, you're not a klutz. I don't know anyone who can feed the rope
fast enough without holding the cam open. Just curious as to why you
refuse to do that...
Mark Bockmann
Keith Jewell
>
> Been there done that. the Trango Jaws even holds if your using both hands
> to bate to the mountain gods. Hell, one time I was so out of it, I
> caught a large fall while I was sneaking some gatorade from the rations
> and still had both hands free while he jugged back up to the piece.
>
consider letting go of the brake hand. The Jaws is great. Compared to
an ATC, it catches falls easier, is easier when someone's hanging on the
rope, raps much mo' bettah, but it's not a Gri-Gri. I hope that partner
is not silly enough to climb with you anymore.
K
John Byrnes
> ... everybody on rec.climbing used to be nice...
TOTAL BULLSHIT! I was NEVER nice.
> but now that you and Brent Ware are know it alls
But we know they know more than you know.
> you bite peoples heads off for asking simple questions!
Brent swallows too. Makes his poop lumpy.
- Lord Slime, I cook mine first.
John Byrnes
> P.S. Sorry that last post is actually from me -- Montanagirl -- Shanti is my middle
> name....not that that really matters.....I still don't like the Gri-Gri.
As in "MontanaShantiGirl"? :-)
- Lord Shack Slime
Ben Craft
> Ben Craft <bcr...@uci.edu> wrote:
Gee Rex, how did you get soo good? Do you plan on writing a book someday?
I wish I could climb harder than A1, but being that I've only been doing
walls for a year or so my Mom won't let me do that stuff. She thinks it's
too dangerous. Maybe if I gave you some money you could teach me the
skills to become an aider as strong as your self? Just how many walls have
you done? I bet it's alot, as good as you sound. I've only done 9 wimpy
walls, so I guess that still makes me dumb with respect to different
techniques on the wall.
> Then you Ben are a fucking moron. You got lucky. So did your partner.
> To let go of your brake hand when using a traditional ATC-like device
> is INEXCUSABLE. Use a backup knot for godssake if you've gotta pee.
You haven't tried the JAWS have you?
There's alot of little tricks that one can do to his free his hands up and
still be safe, but I'm sure you know them all. How come all of the speed
aiders don't use your method? Because there are other methods that are
just as *safe* and just as fast.
Hell, to start another thread Jose and Dean use adjustable aiders. I've
read alot of people bag them and say they are too slow.
> Never said I was a speed demon, yet any tricks to make things go
What do you do if you drop your grigri? Do you have another one in
the bag or do you have an ATC?
I bet I could clean the belay up and start jugging just as fast and safe
without a grigri as you can with one.
Ben
John Byrnes
> The Gri-Gri is mostly a sport climbing device, and a darn good one.
No kidding! Thanks for clearing this up for all of us.
> If someone is hang-dogging a route, it gives the opportunity for the
> belayer to completely relax his hands during rests.
> It is also nice because it will hold a person of any weight, without
> strain on any part of the belayer but the part of the harness near his
> crotch.
This is so much bullshit on so many levels I don't know
where to start.
> If you get proficient with the device, you can feed out slack lightning
> fast, and you can use it for self belay.
> It's not very good for trad climbing, because the instant stopping
> power of the device can add extra force to the piece being fallen on.
Really. You haven't been reading Dejanews have you?
> The Gri-Gri is by far my favorite belay device, but I don't own one and
> probably never will unless the price comes down quite a bit, or I get a
> lot richer.
Maybe if you had an ounce of brains you might be able to get a job
better than flippin' burgers. Then you could buy your very own
Gri-gri.
> I forget who makes it, but someone just came out with a different,
> simpler self-locking belay device that is not so user friendly, but
> retails for around thirty bucks, and comes with a good locking 'biner.
Cool. I'm sure we didn't discuss that months ago.
> (PS what is this "troll" label everyone is throwing around?)
A troll is a beast that lives in caves and under bridges and comes
out to bite the heads off of moronic posters in rec.climbing.
Don't stop lookin' over your shoulder; you're obviously a
tasty morsel.
- Lord Slime, Can I have some salsa?
Rex Pieper
>Gee Rex, how did you get soo good? Do you plan on writing a book
>someday?
No book...just a pamphlet on soloing for Bob.
>I wish I could climb harder than A1,
Maybe if you're good, Santa will bring you a scrotum for Xmas.
>but being that I've only been doing walls for a year or so my Mom won't
>let me do that stuff. She thinks it's too dangerous.
Hmm...Esparza's TR for Leaning Tower, your 2nd wall is from June 98
so you've been doing it longer than a year, more like "or so" thus, you're
using Mom as an excuse. Cut the apron strings. And below you claim
all 9 of your walls in a year...hmm...
>Maybe if I gave you some money you could teach me the skills to
>become an aider as strong as your self?
Don't think you have enough money as I'm sure you still wouldn't be
up to speed after 30 lessons. Took me a couple of years to get it and
you're far denser than I.
>Just how many walls have you done? I bet it's alot, as good as you
>sound. I've only done 9 wimpy walls, so I guess that still makes me
>dumb with respect to different techniques on the wall.
Enough to realize you can always pick up new tricks no matter how
many you've been up...oh and BTW more than you. BFD. You wanna
get a ruler and measure our dicks too?
>You haven't tried the JAWS have you?
Bzzzt. I own one and use it often. I even have this as my primary
rap/backup belay device.
>There's alot of little tricks that one can do to his free his hands up and
>still be safe, but I'm sure you know them all. How come all of the speed
>aiders don't use your method? Because there are other methods that are
>just as *safe* and just as fast.
Lots of tricks like just whacking off and hoping the Jaws will lock up?
Please. Spare us. Well, from talking to Scott Cosgrove, the grigri
trick is used by him, Gerberding and Kevin Thaw...those big enough
names I can drop for you? Which "speed aiders" are you referring to?
Those that do those rad 5.6 alpine ridge traverses?
>What do you do if you drop your grigri? Do you have another one in
>the bag or do you have an ATC?
I have a keeper sling on mine, and a Jaws on my harness at all times
for backup/rapping, etc. When Kathy Dicker and I did Mescalito we took 2
grigris and it was pretty convenient, no trading the devices back and
forth, and each could drop down to the pigs easily via the tie-in tether.
Was nice too jugging the initial fixed lines that neither of us didn't have
to backtie. What's 8 extra ounces on a wall? Nothing.
-Rex "how'd I get sucked in to this again?" Pieper
Greg Daughtry
manufacturer's directions, which are designed to reduce their liability, not
necessarily to maximize the usefulness of the device.
With experience, you can feed the device faster AND more safely than any
friction device.
'Greg
Portland, OR
GeoffCJ wrote in message <19991209212425...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>>> Maybe I'm a klutz, but I can't get the rope through the Gri-gri
>>> fast enough for a fast clip. I hate being short-roped, so I get
>>> really wrought if I short rope my leader. (I can get the rope out
>>> fast if I hold it open, but I won't do that.) So gimme an ATC-like
>>> device anyday.
>>>
>>> - Lord Slime
>
Greg Daughtry
I am of the opinion that a SMALL locking pear-shaped biner with large
diameter aluminum stock is better (Petzl Attache) because it helps to
prevent cross loading.
The new Wild Country locking biner with that plastic piece that rotates
across and prevent cross loading looks to be even better, though I don't own
one.
'Greg
Portland, OR
Keith Jewell wrote in message <385053E5...@cyberhighway.net>...
>Greg Daughtry wrote:
>> Clipping it [the Gri-Gri] to a belay loop (as opposed to biner through
waist and leg
>> loops) helps to keep the device upright.
>>
>Not trying to nitpick, Greg, but it's been mentioned here before.
>Clipping a biner through both leg loop and waist sets it up for
>three-way (tri-axial) loading. Through belay loop, or waist, only with
>a large biner lets the gri orient itself when weighted.
>
>
>K
Russ Walling
> >I wish I could climb harder than A1,
Rex Pieper wrote:
>>Maybe if you're good, Santa will bring you a scrotum for Xmas.
Now THAT is funny! Good show boys, keep it up. Best thread going.
adios,
Russ
--
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Catwoman
inez...@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Inez Drixelius) wrote:
> My objection to the grigri isn't the device itself as much as the
> poor
> belaying habits it creates. I have seen too many belayers (in the
> gym)
> simply letting go of the brake altogether and just standing there
> and only
> operating the grigri when the leader moves. Sure, the grigri is
> supposedly fool proof, but what happens to that breed of casual
> belayers
> when they have to use a conventional belay device? Will they let
> go of
> the brake because this is what they habitually do with the grigri?
>
I absolutely agree with this. I just started climbing at a gym where
the Gri-Gri is required, and I've noticed the same scary tendencies.
Also, I feel that in a toprope situation -- especially if the climber
is downclimbing -- I have finer control of the rope with my ATC.
(YMMV.) I end up belaying with the Gri-Gri as if it were a big, clumsy
ATC. As Inez points out, though, outside the gym/on walls it's a whole
different story -- I've never used a Gri-Gri outside so can't really
speak to that.
--Kyri "was trained to NEVER let my brake hand leave the rope and want
all my belayers to do the same"
>
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Greg Daughtry
-snip
>Been there done that. the Trango Jaws even holds if your using both hands
>to bate to the mountain gods. Hell, one time I was so out of it, I
>caught a large fall while I was sneaking some gatorade from the rations
>and still had both hands free while he jugged back up to the piece.
Man, I hope your partner beats your ass when they find out about that.
He/she is a lucky sonofabitch. The sad part is that Darwin doesn't have
anything to say about the weaker of the species killing off their buddies.
Did you learn anything? Like keep your brake hand on the rope? Sounds like
not, since you can't comprehend the usefulness of a gri-gri.
'Greg
Portland, OR
Catwoman
<dan_g...@pepboys.com> wrote:
> Engineers and product designers are busy trying to make
> "bigger and better" foolproof devices at the same time
> Nature is making bigger and better fools.
Dan, that's the best quote I've heard in ages. LOL
--Kyri
Dr.Dope
Kyri <catwom...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <82rm1b$dca$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Dr.Dope <e...@signal.uu.se> wrote:
> > In article <82rgeg$95i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Kyri <catwom...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > If there is something you can set up with a figure eight, ATC, or
> > > biners that will automatically lock when weighted even if the
> belayer
> > > is knocked unconscious, I'd love to know what it is.
> >
> > Maybe you can rig an god ol prussik above the belay device.
> > Poor mans Gri-Gri?
> >
> I'm confused as to how that would help the person you were belaying --
> wouldn't it catch you, the belayer, but not the leader? If this has
> been debated/discussed every 6 months since the birth of rec.climbing,
> guys, just ignore me...
>
> --Kyri "whoa, lookit all this GEER... whutsit fer??"
Well, not that I _really_ think it is a very usable idea, but a prussik
above (or below?) the belay device connected to the belayers harness
should stop the rope from feeding out in case the belayer lost control
of the brake end of the rope. I could possibly be a bit tricky to handle
the prussik, but with some training maybe one can learn. I have never
tried.
Erik "that's what NASA forgot, the prussik"
Dr.Dope
Kyri
Fish...@aol.com wrote:
> Ben Craft <bcr...@uci.edu> wrote:
> > >I wish I could climb harder than A1,
>
> Rex Pieper wrote:
> >>Maybe if you're good, Santa will bring you a scrotum for Xmas.
>
> Now THAT is funny! Good show boys, keep it up. Best thread going.
> adios,
> Russ
> --
ain't just for girls you know--
--Kyri
--
These are my opinions and not necessarily those of my employers.
Brutus of Wyde
Rex Pieper wrote:
> You're always tied in to the ENDS of the rope, but nope, we don't tie
> in short. Why wouldn't you trust it as YOUR belay, when you had just
> been using it for your partner?
Just a footnote here...
After an experience on Zenyatta a few years ago, i always either
tie in short, or otherwise somehow stack the rope as i go, for example
into a trailing rope bag when using a grigri as my backup...
i was happily cleaning, moving as fast as my lungs would allow, and
just reached Tom and the belay, when an updraft lifted all 100 feet of
bight i was trailing and draped it over some flakes 75' to our
right and 20 feet above us. About 20 minutes later, we finally got the
right combination of updraft, tension, flipping and slack to get the
thing loose.
Definitely needed both hands and some baby wipes to clean myself off
after that one...
Brutus "Not a fast climber, not a slow climber, just a half-fast
climber" of Wyde
Kevin
You'd figure working in systems I'd be able to decipher even the most
cryptic acronym. Then again, I never claimed to be bright...
Karl Lew
--Karl
Kevin <m...@work.com> wrote in message news:%Cc44.633$Uo3...@198.235.216.4...
Brutus of Wyde
> Brutus, it takes some practice, but I find that I can pay out slack
> more quickly with a Grigri than with any other device. Just cup the
> cam closed with your right hand and pull the rope straight through
> with your left. You can quickly pay out several armloads because you
> don't have to mess with the brake side of the rope at all.
Exactly. My preference to not use the grigri stems from
this very action which is required to quickly pay out slack.
> Everybody I've
> seen (including myself) has a problem short-roping their leader when
> they first start out using a Grigri. I know you've been using them for
> a while, but maybe you're not using the standard method (above) for
> paying out slack?
Only when on walls. When belaying free climbing, I prefer to keep my
brake hand on the rope, and I and my partners can certainly pay out
slack as quickly as is needed without a grigri. The LAST thing I want
to do as my partner clips, is take my brake hand off the rope and
use it to disable the automatic locking feature of the grigri. Just my
personal preference.
Why do I make an exception on walls?
- Usually the leads take hours, especially if we're drilling bolts,
- slack is not normally needed in big payouts, and of course
- if both hands are free, other tasks can be attended, as
"shut up leader, I'm hauling" Walling pointed out a long time ago.
> >and cannot be used for double ropes, which I sometimes use
> > on sport climbs where groundfall may result from a fumbled clip.
>
> Yes, that's certainly a drawback. But I haven't personally seen many
> sport routes that need double ropes.
Rocket in my Pocket at Pinnacles is another. *Need*? -- no, but
double ropes can make the lead a bit safer. If one looks around,
there are quite a few of these kind of sport climbs out there.
Brutus "Don't fall, I've got you on a hip belay!" of Wyde
Dave Andersen
In fact, for an entertaining thread, search deja.com for exactly this
topic. :)
I found it the last time I looked, but your mileage may vary.
-Dave
--
work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com
MIT Laboratory for Computer Science http://www.angio.net/
GeoffCJ
>in short. Why wouldn't you trust it as YOUR belay, when you had just
>been using it for your partner?
>
Good point. It just makes me feel better when the pucker factor is high (and
yes, I got puckered jugging....)
=>
Geoff
GeoffCJ
>> Poor mans Gri-Gri?
>>
>I'm confused as to how that would help the person you were belaying --
>wouldn't it catch you, the belayer, but not the leader? If this has
>been debated/discussed every 6 months since the birth of rec.climbing,
>guys, just ignore me...
>
>--Kyri "whoa, lookit all this GEER... whutsit fer??"
Nope, Kyri,
think about it for a second. You rig a prussik to hold the rope, and it could
be used to hold a leader.
A few weeks ago, while Dawn was jugging on trashcan rock, a guy next to us
realized he threaded his grigri backwards. He whipped out the prussik, used it
to hold his partner, and switched the gri-gri...
=>
geoff
brent ware
> I also like it when I am belaying Brent on some "project" sport route that he is
> doggin' his way up. Man, when that guy is working a route the belayer gets a
> workout also.
Hey, the deal I make is that if you belay me on one of my projects,
I'll belay you uncomplainingly on one of yours. As long as it takes.
I like my gri-gri, don't have any trouble feeding slack for a fast
clip, esp. if I've trained my partner to tell me when he or she is
clipping (trying to avoid belayer's neck).
-bw
coming back to SoCal for another try at PHM, Andy, so get ready.
Montanagirl
the infamous "Lord Slime" -- or do I not want to know?! ;)
--MontanaShantiGirl
Mike Watz
-Mike 'Holy Slime Batman!!' Watz-
Montanagirl
--MontanaShantiGirl
John Byrnes
>
> Yeah, yeah, yeah -- and I haven't been around here long enough to know how/why you became
> the infamous "Lord Slime" -- or do I not want to know?! ;)
It's a long story and I don't have a portaledge handy.
- Lord Slime, nobility lost in time
Montanagirl
--Montana "I have a double-ledge" Girl
John Byrnes
> John, you're not a klutz. I don't know anyone who can feed the rope
> fast enough without holding the cam open. Just curious as to why you
> refuse to do that...
Because that's how people get dropped. There's several scenarios,
but this ones pretty obvious:
Leader is clipping and he's sketching bad. Belayer is holding
Gri-gri open with one hand, yanking rope through the thing with
the other. Leader falls, hits ground in 1.5 seconds.
The reason the leader hits the ground is that, in a stressful
situation, almost all belayers "grip" instinctively instead of
"let go", and the leader decks before voluntary action kicks in.
Many people have decked this way. See DejaNews for more.
- Lord Slime
John Byrnes
> I find that I can pay out slack
> more quickly with a Grigri than with any other device. Just cup the cam
> closed with your right hand and pull the rope straight through with
> your left.
I would *NEVER* let you belay me that way. Period.
And neither should anyone else.
- Lord Slime
Russ Walling
> > > >I wish I could climb harder than A1,
> > Rex Pieper wrote:
> > >>Maybe if you're good, Santa will bring you a scrotum for Xmas.
> >Russ wrote:
> > Now THAT is funny! Good show boys, keep it up. Best thread going.
> > adios,
Kyri wrote:
> So when do we get to see you guys mud-wrestling in thongs? Catfights
> ain't just for girls you know--
Just like Andy Kaufman I only wrestle girls...... or women. Either is
fine. Not sure about those other dudes. Maybe grappling with scantily
clad sweaty men is some sort of peverse turn-on.
John Byrnes
> John Byrnes wrote:
> > It's a long story and I don't have a portaledge handy.
>
It's a Grade VI story. We'd have to bivy.
- Lord Slime
maohai huang
: [the grigri] cannot be
: used to rappel two ropes.
Strictly speaking you can't rappel off on two ropes. But you can rappel off
one of them if you tie a big bomber knot that can block the rope from
slipping through the rap ring under your weight. This way you rap off on
one rope and use the other as a retrieval line. This method won't work if
you can't find something to block the knot at the rap anchor.
Karl Baba's 6mm "rap line" trick has identical setup.
Greg Daughtry
You would never want to shock-load a prussik (and expect it to hold).
Plus, you would never be able to feed out or in rope.
'Greg
Dr.Dope wrote in message <82rm1b$dca$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
-snip
>Maybe you can rig an god ol prussik above the belay device.
>Poor mans Gri-Gri?
-snip
Geo Day
"maohai huang" <mhu...@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:82s3l7$6fc$2...@news1.bu.edu...
Is this safe? I would worry that the knot would slip through some how.
Rich Pawlowicz
>
> In article <6JS34.93556$7I4.2...@news5.giganews.com>,
> "Geo Day" <dd...@vci.net> wrote:
> > Ok I guess I stirred it up in here a little. I know the grigri is a
> good
> > piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or
> an ATC
> > or even a few carbiners etc..
>
> If there is something you can set up with a figure eight, ATC, or
> biners that will automatically lock when weighted even if the belayer
> is knocked unconscious, I'd love to know what it is.
Garda hitch, aka the Alpine Clutch. Two biners is all it needs.
Only for toproping though, since it's hard to pay rope out through it.
Rich.
--
Remove XYZ from email address.
Greg Daughtry
-snip
>slack as quickly as is needed without a grigri. The LAST thing I want
>to do as my partner clips, is take my brake hand off the rope and
>use it to disable the automatic locking feature of the grigri. Just my
>personal preference.
I wouldn't want to do that either. Most folks use the off (non-brake) hand
to both hold the gri-gri and pinch/hold the cam down to pay out slack.
The brake hand stays on the rope, either below the gri-gri to back up the
device as a brake hand, or above it to yard out slack.
I also do not agree with Slime that one cannot condition your reaction to a
fall to not disable the cam. A better method is to train yourself so that
you only hold the cam when you are hand is above the gri-gri to pay out
slack, then immediatlly take your finger off the cam. This can be
conditioned to the same extent as lowering your brake hand to hold a fall
with a conventional device. If you always hold the gri-gri like a pistol,
you can grip tight all you want (in a stressful response to a fall), it will
help to maintain correct orientation of the device, but you will not disable
it by holding the cam. Its important to rehearse the panic motion by moving
your finger off the cam.
I know this has been discussed innumerable, and I'm sure this won't change
anyone's position here.
Consider these things before you say to a prospective partner: "I don't
want a belay from you if you pay slack like that with a gri-gri." Or, "Man
you are gonna kill someone like that." Personally I'd rather have someone
disable the cam quickly if I'm sketching than give me the ratchet belay.
You gotta pay attention to the circumstances...
'Greg
Portland, OR
Greg Daughtry
>mdboc...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> John, you're not a klutz. I don't know anyone who can feed the rope
>> fast enough without holding the cam open. Just curious as to why you
>> refuse to do that...
>
>Because that's how people get dropped. There's several scenarios,
>but this ones pretty obvious:
I conject there are similar scenarios with friction devices, and unexpected
falls while one is sliding their brake hand down the rope after paying out
slack. No one is paying attention to these incidents particularly because
they don't involve a gri-gri. Incidents are chalked up to belayer
inexperience or error.
>
>Leader is clipping and he's sketching bad. Belayer is holding
If a climber is sketching, you should be paying attention, and expecting a
fall.
If a climber is sketching, the LAST thing you want to do is give them the
ratchet belay and INCREASE the time it takes for them to make the clip.
>Gri-gri open with one hand, yanking rope through the thing with
>the other. Leader falls, hits ground in 1.5 seconds.
This is a bit of hyperbole. Reactions can most certainly be conditioned.
You can most definitely train yourself to NEVER keep your finger on top of
that cam, the same way you can condition yourself to ALWAYS keep your brake
hand on the rope.
>
>The reason the leader hits the ground is that, in a stressful
>situation, almost all belayers "grip" instinctively instead of
>"let go", and the leader decks before voluntary action kicks in.
>
>Many people have decked this way. See DejaNews for more.
Most people deck with the gri-gri from lowering. There has been no
consensus here, that I've seen.
'Greg
Portland, OR
Andy Gale
brent ware wrote:
> Andy Gale <ag...@scripps.edu> writes:
>
> > I also like it when I am belaying Brent on some "project" sport route that he is
> > doggin' his way up. Man, when that guy is working a route the belayer gets a
> > workout also.
>
> Hey, the deal I make is that if you belay me on one of my projects,
> I'll belay you uncomplainingly on one of yours. As long as it takes.
Hey, I'm not complaining. Just telling why I like the Gri.
>
> coming back to SoCal for another try at PHM, Andy, so get ready.
Well, the weather is probably just your style up there right now. Cold, cold, cold.
Andy
--
******************************************************************
Andrew Gale The Scripps Research Institute
ag...@scripps.edu La Jolla, CA
******************************************************************
Bill Folk
with a locking biner, a quickdraw, and a figure 8, called the " le huite
Italien".
1. Pass a loop with a half twist through the big hole in the 8, pass the
loop over the small end of the 8, and pull it snug. It only works if the
twist is in the right direction; you'll want to twist counterclockwise if
you are right handed.
2. Clip the big hole on the 8 to your belay loop with the locker.
3. Clip the small hole on the 8 to your belay loop with the quickdraw. The
small hole should be to the right hand side, again assuming you are right
handed.
The device is now in the locked position: tension on the rope cinches it
against the figure 8, locking it off. To allow rope to feed, pull the
small hole end of the figure 8 toward you with the quickdraw with your
right hand, which rotates the figure 8, and allows rope to feed, while
using your left as the brake hand. Releasing the quickdraw will lock up
the rope.
Sorry I'm too lazy to provide an ASCII illustration. I have played around
with this, but haven't used it extensively. I suspect that it will twist
the rope and fuzz the sheath as a Munter will. Also, in the event of a
fall, what you want to do is let go (of the quickdraw) with the right hand
to lock off the rope, which is of course the opposite of what you have
been trained to do, so there is obviously potential for user error here.
I'm presenting this in answer to Kyri's question, but I'm not recommending
it. Disclaimer: If you try to belay with this, you will probably kill both
yourself and your partner. Have fun.
Bill
Kyri wrote:
> In article <6JS34.93556$7I4.2...@news5.giganews.com>,
> "Geo Day" <dd...@vci.net> wrote:
> > Ok I guess I stirred it up in here a little. I know the grigri is a
> good
> > piece, but it will not do anything you can do with a figure eight or
> an ATC
> > or even a few carbiners etc..
>
> If there is something you can set up with a figure eight, ATC, or
> biners that will automatically lock when weighted even if the belayer
> is knocked unconscious, I'd love to know what it is.
>
> --Kyri (I hate belaying with Gri-Gri's in the gym though)
>
> I was climbing last week and saw a group of
> > beginners who obviously had tons of money, standing around a 40 ft
> bolted
> > route with cams, nuts, pitons and every other piece of gear you can
> think of
> > hanging from their harnesses.
>
> p.s. Pitons would seem extreme for that setting, yes. Actually, I've
> seen a lot of people lately dangling Tiblocs... what do you guys think
> of those?
>
> --K
>
> --
> These are my opinions and not necessarily those of my employers.
>
JKVawter
JKVawter
John Byrnes wrote:
> soli...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > The Gri-Gri is mostly a sport climbing device, and a darn good one.
>
> No kidding! Thanks for clearing this up for all of us.
>
> > If someone is hang-dogging a route, it gives the opportunity for the
> > belayer to completely relax his hands during rests.
> > It is also nice because it will hold a person of any weight, without
> > strain on any part of the belayer but the part of the harness near his
> > crotch.
>
> This is so much bullshit on so many levels I don't know
> where to start.
[more delicious sarcasm snipped for brevity]
Bob Harrington
Greg Daughtry <gregory.m...@intel.nospam.com> wrote:
>I don't agree. It's tough to feed rope fast if you insist on following the
>manufacturer's directions, which are designed to reduce their liability, not
>necessarily to maximize the usefulness of the device.
Hohum, I disagree. Didn't we go over this, what, a whole month ago?
In the last go-round, Eric Coomer described the safe way to feed slack
with a Grigri, which also happens to be the way that Petzl says to do it
in the instructions. I've found that it works well. There are also some
dangerous ways to do it -- one of which is also illustrated in the
instructions for the purpose of warning against its use.
It pays to read the instructions, because the way they tell you to strip
slack through the device (by depressing the cam with your braking hand)
really is the right way, and the way they warn you not to (by depressing
the cam with your non-braking hand) really is dangerous.
>With experience, you can feed the device faster AND more safely than any
>friction device.
Yeah, I agree. I was belaying a guy on a climb last summer, he was about
eighty feet up and out of sight, and took a fall. I thought he was trying
to pull up some slack so I pressed the cam down (with my braking hand) and
suddenly the rope started rocketing through the device. No problem, just
let go of the cam and put the braking hand back on the rope. I probably only
dropped him about five feet, which was about the same as if I'd made the
same mistake with a regular device.
Bob
Mick Ryan
>
> > > Ben Craft <bcr...@uci.edu> wrote:
> > > > >I wish I could climb harder than A1,
>
> > > Rex Pieper wrote:
> > > >>Maybe if you're good, Santa will bring you a scrotum for Xmas.
>
> > >Russ wrote:
> > > Now THAT is funny! Good show boys, keep it up. Best thread going.
> > > adios,
>
> Kyri wrote:
> > So when do we get to see you guys mud-wrestling in thongs? Catfights
> > ain't just for girls you know--
>
> Just like Andy Kaufman I only wrestle girls...... or women. Either is
> fine. Not sure about those other dudes. Maybe grappling with scantily
> clad sweaty men is some sort of peverse turn-on.
> Russ
And you would know. What about last night Russell, with Ben and Paddy and myself. You were
certainly tuned in and turned on.
Mick
--
CHECK OUT THE STONE NUDES:
http://www.rockfax.com/rf_usa/stone_nudes.html
---------------------------
Mick Ryan, Rockfax Guidebooks
http://www.rockfax.com
"owned by climbers, run by climbers, for climbers"
---------------------------------------------
ALL ABOUT BISHOP BOULDERING: http://www.rockfax.com/bishop_bouldering/index.html
Bob Harrington
John Byrnes <byr...@fake.fc.hp.com> wrote:
>mdboc...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> John, you're not a klutz. I don't know anyone who can feed the rope
>> fast enough without holding the cam open. Just curious as to why you
>> refuse to do that...
>
>Because that's how people get dropped. There's several scenarios,
>but this ones pretty obvious:
>
>the other. Leader falls, hits ground in 1.5 seconds.
>
>situation, almost all belayers "grip" instinctively instead of
>"let go", and the leader decks before voluntary action kicks in.
The way Petzl recommends to strip slack through a Grigri is to hold
the cam with your braking hand and pull the slack through with the
non-braking hand. It's really pretty safe, because the instinct,
at least my instinct, is to grab the rope and brake and brake with
my braking hand (YMMV). It does work -- I've caught a few falls in
the situation where I had the cam held down, and it isn't a big deal.
Your braking hand is just barely off the rope if you're doing it right.
There's also a dangerous way to do it, where you hold the cam with
your non-braking hand, which I suspect is responsible for a lot
of the Grigri deckings. My opinion is that Grigris work better
than any other device for belaying leaders on sport climbs, but they
also take more practice and demand more expertise from the belayer.
Far from being idiot-proof, they're the opposite. Requiring them
in gyms is insanity.
>Many people have decked this way. See DejaNews for more.
Been dropped once, by and idiot with an ATC.
Bob
Bob Harrington
>> more quickly with a Grigri than with any other device. Just cup the cam
>> closed with your right hand and pull the rope straight through with
>> your left.
>
>I would *NEVER* let you belay me that way. Period.
>And neither should anyone else.
It's what Petzl illustrates in the instructions.
Bob
Bob Harrington
Greg Daughtry <gregory.m...@intel.nospam.com> wrote:
>I wouldn't want to do that either. Most folks use the off (non-brake) hand
>to both hold the gri-gri and pinch/hold the cam down to pay out slack.
>
>The brake hand stays on the rope, either below the gri-gri to back up the
>device as a brake hand, or above it to yard out slack.
Yikes! This thread comes up so often that I've cached the Grigri instruction
sheet next to my computer. If you look in the instructions, they have a
little skull-and-crossbones icon next to the method you are recommending.
Having the brake hand on the rope above the device yarding out slack is
how people get dropped. Much safer to follow the instructions.
Bob
Bob Harrington
>Brutus of Wyde (brutus_...@my-deja.com) wrote:
>: [the grigri] cannot be
>: used to rappel two ropes.
>
>Strictly speaking you can't rappel off on two ropes. But you can rappel off
>one of them if you tie a big bomber knot that can block the rope from
>slipping through the rap ring under your weight. This way you rap off on
>one rope and use the other as a retrieval line. This method won't work if
>you can't find something to block the knot at the rap anchor.
In that case, you can tie a loop on one side of the rap line, clip it
too the other, and rap on the side *without* the loop. This is also from
the instructions. Not the cleanest set up, but OK if your lines aren't
in danger of snagging on the pull.
Bob
Ben Craft
Did you read my post? I'll restate it for you:
Hell, one time I was so out of it, I
caught a large fall while I was sneaking some gatorade from the rations
and still had both hands free while he jugged back up to the piece.
Ever heard of the knot trick or wrapping the rope around your leg? It
doesn't take much to keep your hands free. Alot, more tricks you can do,
but I'm sure you know them. You're such a fool, I know what the hell I'm
doing out there, but you assume you know it all.
> Please. Spare us. Well, from talking to Scott Cosgrove, the grigri
> trick is used by him, Gerberding and Kevin Thaw...those big enough
> names I can drop for you? Which "speed aiders" are you referring to?
Damn, you talk to Scott? Are you like famous or what?
> Those that do those rad 5.6 alpine ridge traverses?
Yeh, wimps like Fiddler, Clevenger, Beach, Croft......
Most of them state the ridges are the best, hardest, and "most out there
climbing" that they have ever done and I imagine that includes the Valley.
Come on over to the East side my friend and try one. You'll wimper out of
the place and crawl back over to the valley to do your A4 wall in which
every Barney is ready to pluck your ass off as soon as you scream help.
By the way, my dick is exactly 1.2 inchs long in the Sierras this time of
the year.
Ben