What do you eat on long hikes and in cold weather ?
Tuan Tran
Hi folks:
My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we often
found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
Thanks in advance.
--
Tuan Anh Tran
Advanced Systems Division
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Dingus Milktoast
Tuan Tran writes:
> Hi folks:
>
> My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
> perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we
> often
> found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
> We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
> was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
> What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
>
You'll get a million answers on this one; everything from holistic
vegatarianism to salami and cheese. Then there are the power bar freaks... I
bet some weirdos even eat them at home! Obviously, there is no accounting for
taste. Which, coincidently, brings me to the heart of my advice.
In the mountains, at altitude, you will often find yourself stressed and
feeling sick (if not all the way there). That sick feeling will keep you from
eating. Eating will cause you to lose energy. That will make you sick!
I recommend you take and eat any damn thing that appeals to you. Don't let the
food nazi's fool you. Any food is good food. And take plenty of it too! Take
more than you think you may eat. If you follow my advice, you will probably
find your pack contains the only edible food anyway. It comes in handy for
barter... I'll give you this apple if you'll carry the rope AND the rack back
down! Here are some things I've found useful...
Drink lots of water. Can't over emphasize this! Drink till you feel totally
full, then force swallow a little more. Drink lots the night before a big day
climb. Drink at every opportunity during the day. My rule is to drink every
time I piss. At some point through a truly gruelling day, you body will being
to shutdown (I'm not a doctor, I just play one in the mountains). You want to
be well hydrated before this happens, cause you won't be able to drink much
afterwards.
As far as food that I eat, it's more of what I don't eat. First and foremost
are power bars... they taste bad, they make me sick and they soak up water. I
believe the key ingredient to power bars is the same shit used in under arm
deodorant! Anyway, power bars and all their varients suck.
It is nice to have some quick energy food along. Candy bars, honey; that type
of thing. There is a new product out (well, it's been around awhile) called Gu
(as in goo). It doesn't soak up water and I usually feel it kick in within 10
minutes. I kid you not, this stuff works.
Long term energy food is good too. I like bread (good fresh stuff from Schotts
Bakery in Mammoth or Bishop. A chunk of cheese helps the bread go down. A
little powdered gatorade helps the water absorb. And I usually like to take a
summit goodie too. A can of pineapple in syrup; maybe a pepsi (with caffene);
whatever floats your boat!
Finally, eat at the trailhead, before you start, no matter how bad you feel.
After that, I like to eat about every 2 hours until I'm no longer able. If
you've planned it right, the food and water you consumed like a glutton all
morning will carry you through the climb, the descent, and the drive back home.
It's not perfect, but it works for me.
DMT
Allan Chong
Tuan Tran wrote:
>
> We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
> was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
> What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
>
For snacks, you just take the same stuff. To eat it, you
just wad the bar up in your mouth, let it melt and then chew.
The seriously hard core have been known to chew on sticks of butter. :)
For meals, just take lots of fat. It really grosses you out packing
for the trip, but once you get out in the cold, your body craves
fat. We'd take 3 packs of Ramen, add 1/2 pound of cheese, a half
stick of butter and have a meal for 2. Take a look at what
the Eskimos eat--lots of fatty foods. Mmmmmmmm, butter.
You'll have to eat any fat at night otherwise you can't digest it.
When it is subzero and you're exercising heavily, you'll burn 5000
calories easily. Fat=9 Calories/gram. I think Carbohydrate=4 Cal/g.
With a pure Carbo diet, you'd need 2.75! lbs of food per day.
That's about 15 ramen packages. I'd better stop this thread before
I get sick.
I make no warranty, express or implied about what this will do for
your health.
allan
GripNinja
Are you saying there's something wrong with eating power bars at home?
Sometimes I eat 2 or 3 of them for dinner. And I always bring them on
climbs. If you keep them close to your body they stay nice and chewy.
Putting them in your water bottle parka with a hot bottle of gatorade
(yes, hot gatorade is where it's at) can keep them almost gooey. And
double up the dosage on the gatorade, I like it potent. Pop tarts are
awesome, too, even when they're all broken up. But I always drink tons of
gatorade the night before so I wake up almost bursting. Pop tarts,
powerbars, and hot gatorade are all you need. (stoker bars and clif bars
are good, too, but they don't have that synthetic taste that I love)
Crazy
>Tuan Tran writes:
>> Hi folks:
>>
>> My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
>> perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we
>> often
>> found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
>> was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
>> What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
You know, I have recently thought about eating while hiking, since it
preoccupies the minds of too many people and causes a lot of hedaches
(in terms of decisions, weight, price, logistics and so forth). It
occured to me that there shouldn't be any reason not to eat for awhile
to begin with. You just don't HAVE to eat, you know.
I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there are many people and
groups of people who fast for various reasons (religious, spiritual,
health and so forth) for various lenghts of time. People have fasted
succesfully for up to 40 days with no decremental health effects.
Quite the opposite - fasting, if done right, is actually a very
healthy practice!
The only problem with fasting is that some people are not well aware
of the fact that while you fast, you should do something to keep
"evacuating the bowels". It is a very important thing, since the body
keeps poisons and when you stop eating, somehow your body quits
getting rid of them. I have read about an experiment that Russians
did some time ago about fasting and hiking. (Unfortunately, it's been
awhile and I can't provide references.) They picked a healthy group of
individuals, gave them instructions on fasting, cleansing and basic
meditation and turned them loose in the tundra. We're talking about
fairly cold, but flat territory. They ended up hiking about 10 miles
a day, meditating some and the only thing they had was watter (maybe
also some kind of juice, but I'm not sure). I'd hate to tell you for
how long they did that, 'cause I really don't remember - either 14
days, or 40 days. It seems extreme, in either case, but it was done
and their health was very good at the end. Obviously, they lost plenty
of weight and it took them a few days of special diet to get them back
into their regular diet, but after the whole thing was over, they
retained their normal weight in a few days.
There's no reason whyt a healthy individual shouldn't last a full week
without food. Granted, the "evacuating the bowels" thing might provide
a bit messy in the wilderness and I haven't tried that. But I have
lived for a week on nothing but cranberry juice, while working,
playing sports after work and just going through my regular routine.
The second day is the worst, but after that, as strange as it might
seems, you don't really miss the food. You just aren't hungry! At the
end of that week you really feel like there's no good reason why you
shouldn't go like that for another week. I know that this may seem
contrary to many people's experiences who've been without food for a
prolonged time, but you gotta understand that the psychology of
voluntary fasting and simply staying hungry is a very different thing.
Also, the cleansing procedures make a lot of difference as well.
Just some things to think on.
-= Ivan =-
S. Mueller
Dingus Milktoast (crha...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: Tuan Tran writes:
: > My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
: > perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we
: > often
: > found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
: > We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
: > was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
: > What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
: In the mountains, at altitude, you will often find yourself stressed and
: feeling sick (if not all the way there). That sick feeling will keep you from
: eating. Eating will cause you to lose energy. That will make you sick!
: I recommend you take and eat any damn thing that appeals to you. Don't let the
: food nazi's fool you. Any food is good food. And take plenty of it too! Take
: more than you think you may eat. If you follow my advice, you will probably
: find your pack contains the only edible food anyway. It comes in handy for
: barter... I'll give you this apple if you'll carry the rope AND the rack back
: down! Here are some things I've found useful...
: Drink lots of water. Can't over emphasize this! Drink till you feel totally
: full, then force swallow a little more. Drink lots the night before a big day
: climb. Drink at every opportunity during the day. My rule is to drink every
: time I piss. At some point through a truly gruelling day, you body will being
: to shutdown (I'm not a doctor, I just play one in the mountains). You want to
: be well hydrated before this happens, cause you won't be able to drink much
: afterwards.
: Long term energy food is good too. I like bread (good fresh stuff from Schotts
: Bakery in Mammoth or Bishop. A chunk of cheese helps the bread go down. A
: little powdered gatorade helps the water absorb. And I usually like to take a
: summit goodie too. A can of pineapple in syrup; maybe a pepsi (with caffene);
: whatever floats your boat!
Hi
on long trips in the alps the necessity of gaining lots of energy through
food is essential. my experience tells me the following:
anything that tastes good usually is good, too. however, as has been
pointed out, fat contains a lot more energy than carbohydrates and it
seems to last longer.
furthermore, as i have been told, carbohyrdates can only be dissolved
(=digested) with the help of water and therefore use your water reserves.
fats behave otherwise, they are not water-solvable and can be digested as
they are.
simple carbohydrates are more easily digested. IMHO though, this fact is
more relevant in running than in slower-motioned mountaineering. probably
depends on one's stomach.
personally, i like to take lots of hazelnuts and dried raisins for the
"pit stops". for longer rests i carry a bar of dark chocolate with
hazelnuts (stops speeded digestion, too...) and for quick energy i take
dried whole bananas (not the roasted disks, just dried and long - look
kind of sick but taste good!).
as for water i have made very good experience with carrying one bottle
underneath my sweater so that the water does not get ice-cold (then i
don't drink enough) and carrying a thermos with which i can melt snow.
furthermore chewing gums prevent your mouth from getting all dried out.
greetings, ps mueller
Pete Hurd
Allan Chong wrote:
>
> > We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
> > was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
> > What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
> The seriously hard core have been known to chew on sticks of butter. :)
Once brought a _large_ ball of rice krispie treats, was surprised at how
manageable
it was after c. 12hrs at cold temperatures (knock down winds at -15C
ambient). Main
problem was geometry of biting off pieces from softball shaped chunks,
the large
amount of volume they took up, quite easy to handle with frostbite.
Made me think about upping the (marge) fat content several times in the
search for
homemade non-freezing powerbar.
BTW - whatever happend to the Canadian _Coldbuster_ Bar?
--
Pete Hurd pe...@zool.su.se
Zoologiska Institutionen Ph# 46-8-16-40-37
Stockholms Universitetet Fax 46-8-16-77-15
Stockholm S-106 91 Sweden
http://ethology.zool.su.se/pete.html
chris maytag
> Allan Chong wrote:
> >
>
> > > We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
> > > was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
> > > What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
I've had better luck with Cliff bars than with powerbars, etc. They
tend to stay chewable in much, much colder weather than powerbars do.
It's also pretty easy to make hommade bars, there are recipies floating
around somewhere...maybe posted to this group at one point? And that
way, no cellophane to pack out (or have blown out of your hands...).
--
{ chris maytag // top...@netone.com // 303.440.9452 }
Trey Jackson
Eat whatever sounds good.
I happen to like to eat gorp or chocolate.
Cheese is real nice too.
Lots of fat it seems.
For hot meals, pasta and spicy thai peanut sauce
packs a lot of energy and tastes like a slice of heaven.
(it's just PB/water/garlic/ginger/soy sauce/red pepper flakes/etc.)
--
Trey Jackson
tr...@cs.bErkElEy.Edu
"You don't need luck if you are good."
-- No Fear
Brutus of Wyde
> Iv...@mindspring.com (Crazy) writes:
> Quite the opposite - fasting, if done right, is actually a very
> healthy practice!
Respectfully suggest that fasting during extreme exertion at
high altitude may not always result in optimum performance.
Sincerely,
Miss Information
james earl
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
> As far as food that I eat, it's more of what I don't eat. First and foremost
> are power bars... they taste bad, they make me sick and they soak up water. I
> believe the key ingredient to power bars is the same shit used in under arm
> deodorant! Anyway, power bars and all their varients suck.
:) I have to agree with you on those very interesting powerbars.
However, I did find a bar that I found absolutely life saving. I can't
remember the name (sorry), but it simply consisted of dried fruit (maybe
it was candy?!) squished into a powerbar shape.
Brian L. Rachford
In article <N.092396.145729.66@HARRISHOME>, crha...@pacbell.net (Dingus Milktoast) writes:
>Tuan Tran writes:
>> Hi folks:
>>
>> perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we
>> often
>> found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
>> was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
>> What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
>>
>
>
<some good stuff deleted>
>It is nice to have some quick energy food along. Candy bars, honey; that type
>of thing. There is a new product out (well, it's been around awhile) called Gu
>(as in goo). It doesn't soak up water and I usually feel it kick in within 10
>minutes. I kid you not, this stuff works.
I agree with the comments about Gu; good stuff. Pretty much the same
consistancy and taste as pudding so it's really easy to eat. You
could also try Power Gel; similar stuff but I don't think it tastes
as good. This spring I did a little test with Gu on a short day.
It was a 2600ft vertical, 25-40 degree angle snow hike/climb with
a 0.5 mile approach. I had a light snack at the trailhead, and ate
only a Gu packet at the summit about 2.5 hours later after a strenuous
ascent. By the time I was most of the way down after 1.5 hours
I started to feel a little bonked, but I thought that was still
pretty good performance.
Fruit works well for me; I've eaten many a summit apple. Also,
I never drink just water anymore. A quart of Gatorade has 200
calories so on a long day that's 400 calories without eating
anything.
>Finally, eat at the trailhead, before you start, no matter how bad you feel.
Yep. I usually try to eat a sandwich with at least a pint of Gatorade
at the trailhead (except when I'm doing some weird experiment on myself).
Brian
____________________________________________________________________
Brian L. Rachford, grad student | rach...@sparky.uwyo.edu
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy | rach...@uwyo.edu
University of Wyoming, Laramie | http://plains.uwyo.edu/~rachford/
david mann
Tuan Tran (tu...@spicey.asd.sgi.com) wrote:
: My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
: perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we often
: found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
: We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
: was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
: What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
I take basically what I take in warm weather. Some things I see
lacking in your short list (granola bars and P-bars) are protien
and fruit. For protien, I often take gorp (with mixed nuts), peanut
butter (gets hard in really bitter temps), jerky, hard salami and
cheese. If you take hard salami and cheese in bitter cold, precut
it so you don't have to futz around in the cold with your knife
and pack inside small zip-locks that can be put into an inner pocket
in the morning to warm it up to eating temp. Perhaps the best thing
about cold weather food is being able to make your gorp with
semi-sweet chocolate chips instead of M&Ms. No fear of them
melting in your hands!
For fruit, I usually pack some dried fruit. Like meat and cheese,
this has to go into an inside pocket to warm up to be eatable.
Will Steger's Antarctic crew soaked their gorp in hot water before
eating it so they wouldn't break their teeth.
Depending on how cold it is and how efficient your water bottle
cozy/thermas is, you can make instant soup from water heated at
breakfast. I know of people who carry stainless thermases just
for this reason.
Has for P-bars, I like 'em just fine (and eat them at home washed
down with plenty of black coffee - helps me type faster, longer
and wit fewer spellling errs). And as Bob Broeking noted last year,
ever cold winter hiker should know what they sound like when they
are smacked against a rock. Smash the terrible things into bite
sized pieces and let them warm up in your mouth before trying to
pull out all of your fillings. Ice axe adzes are perfect for chopping
power bars. I know people who carry (never mind...)
Dave Mann | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do
| noble acts without the proper equipment."
dam...@lynx.neu.edu | Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
crha...@pacbell.net
Crazy Ivan writes:
> You know, I have recently thought about eating while hiking, since it
> preoccupies the minds of too many people and causes a lot of hedaches
> (in terms of decisions, weight, price, logistics and so forth). It
> occured to me that there shouldn't be any reason not to eat for awhile
> to begin with. You just don't HAVE to eat, you know.
DAMN! Why didn't I thknk of that? Can't decide what to eat? Just say no!
> I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there are many people and
> groups of people who fast for various reasons (religious, spiritual,
> health and so forth) for various lenghts of time.
I know there are many people who practice self-mutilation, cannabilism, and sex
with small children! Just because one group of wacko idiots practices fasting
for whatever misguided reason, doesn't mean that altitude performance will be
enhanced by it!
> People have fasted
> succesfully for up to 40 days with no decremental health effects.
I'd like, I mean I'd really like to see you haul you ass up a mountain for 40
days without any food.
> Quite the opposite - fasting, if done right, is actually a very
> healthy practice!
Oh yeah! Very healthy. Digestive system? Ooooh! That's bad for you man. Just a
vestige of your meat eating, blood thirsty ancestors. You will not be
enlightened until you grow beyond your need for food.
> The only problem with fasting is that some people are not well aware
> of the fact that while you fast, you should do something to keep
> "evacuating the bowels".
"You better pray boy, and you better pray good!" - Deliverance, just before the
sodomy scene.
> It is a very important thing, since the body
> keeps poisons and when you stop eating, somehow your body quits
> getting rid of them.
I'm sure the N.E. Journal of Medicine has reams of articles on this poison
shit. Care to quote any of them?
> I have read about an experiment that Russians
> did some time ago about fasting and hiking.
You bet. The Russians are some of the worlds' foremost experts on starving, er
fasting, people; to death even. Last count... 40 million and growing. Yup...
like taking Jeffery Daimers advice on how to prepare a barbacue!
> (Unfortunately, it's been
> awhile and I can't provide references.) They picked a healthy group of
> individuals, gave them instructions on fasting, cleansing and basic
> meditation and turned them loose in the tundra.
Right in the middle of the Gulag Archapelago.
> We're talking about
> fairly cold, but flat territory. They ended up hiking about 10 miles
> a day, meditating some and the only thing they had was watter (maybe
> also some kind of juice, but I'm not sure). I'd hate to tell you for
> how long they did that, 'cause I really don't remember - either 14
> days, or 40 days.
I heard in some cases it went on for more than 20 years.. the forced marches,
lack of food, extreme cold. Most died. I guess if you could survive that you
really wouldn't need food to climb mountains.
There's no reason whyt a healthy individual shouldn't last a full week
> without food.
There's no reason a healthy individual should want to go for a week without
food.
> Granted, the "evacuating the bowels" thing might provide
> a bit messy in the wilderness and I haven't tried that.
Maybe you should practice what you preach. Tell you what... fast for 10 days
and then go climb Mt Rainer. Be sure you post the TR is you survive.
I think I'll keep eating.
DMT
Peter Clinch
Crazy wrote:
>
> Tuan Tran writes:
>> My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
>> perfectly. On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we
>> often found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of
>> the day.
>> We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
>> was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
>> What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
>
> preoccupies the minds of too many people and causes a lot of hedaches
> (in terms of decisions, weight, price, logistics and so forth). It
> occured to me that there shouldn't be any reason not to eat for awhile
> to begin with. You just don't HAVE to eat, you know.
<snip>
I don't dispute this, but it means you end up reliant on body fat
reserves rather than carbohydrate. Is this a bad thing? Well,
possibly. Body fat is very high in energy but designed for storage.
Burning it is far more difficult than burning carbohydrate, which is
already close to the form needed, so it's far more difficult for your
body to muster the energy if you're running on fat. Mustering that
little extra energy can be important in a one day summit push.
Given that this is a one day exercise, I don't think fasting is really
appropriate.
Back to the original question, the usual remedy is "little and often".
Natural forms are generally best, as refined sugars in candy bars
(including granolas) are absorbed too quickly into the system, leading
to peaks in blood sugar (a quick rush) followed by a trough as insulin
is over-produced to compensate. Thus, raisins, nuts, dried apple,
apricot and banana chips are all very good. By constant nibbling at
these you get a bit closer to a system of energy input == energy output
than separate meals, so the body has less jiggling of resources to do.
It's important to get salt into the system, as you lose it sweating and
you'll do that a lot over a day's uphill. It is very often a lack of
salt (which isn't big in granola & power bars) which leads to That
Ravenous Feeling. I've found drinking salted isotonic drinks like
Gatorade rather than water or juice helps a lot here, and salted foods
can be good too. Don't use salt tablets, as they are sufficiently
concentrated to upset body chemistry, a bit like large dollops of
refined sugar in candy. A light lunch is a good time to get salt on
board, as something like a Feta sandwich will have a fair bit, give a
break from interminable raisin eating and give a good excuse for a break
in a nice spot.
Power bars or candy are good for a quick burst, but not so good in the
longer term. They are also good at boosting morale: psychological
boosts are often far more important than physiological ones. For
something that you can still eat in cold temperatures, marzipan is very
good (assuming you like it, anyway!), or raw jelly cubes (probably
"jello" in US terminology). Damn site nicer than power bars as well...
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/MedPhys/
Mike Yukish
>> Anti-foodman sez:
>> You just don't HAVE to eat, you know.
>
> Chef Boy-R-U-nuts sez:
>Oh yeah! Very healthy. Digestive system? Ooooh! That's bad for you man. Just a
>vestige of your meat eating, blood thirsty ancestors. You will not be
>enlightened until you grow beyond your need for food.
>There's no reason a healthy individual should want to go for a week without
>food.
>
[snip, snip, snip]
>
I have to say that their is some truth in what our
anorexic hiker states. I spent a week+ in March in the
mountains of Maine, slogging around in snowshoes through
the forest the whole time. We went from before sunrise to
after sundown. We went up and down the ridges, forded
streams, built snow caves, the whole works. Maximum effort
continuously. My food and drink for those nine days was a
handful of rice cooked in chicken broth, two packs of
cherry lifesavers, and about a thousand gallons of water.
No, I didn't do it for fun. It was survival training in
the military. But hunger was not as all-consuming as I
thought it would be. 'A juicy hamburger and a cold beer
would be really, REALLY nice' was the sentiments of most
of my fellow sloggers.
One thing you learn is that if you are in a place where
water is scarce, you should cut way back on your eating,
no matter what it is. It takes water to digest food, same
as it takes water to wash clothes. Got to get everything
sloshing around in there (I believe that's the medical
term for it).
I lost ten pounds, and it definitely was not water weight.
Other than that, my performance did not droop that much,
if at all. I think the need for food is overstated. The
human body compensates magnificently. Great way to lose
weight too!
That being said, I like to bring big hunks of peanut
brittle with me when I climb. Lots of fat and sugar!
*******************************
Mike Yukish
Applied Research Lab
may...@psu.edu
http://elvis.arl.psu.edu/~may106/
Crazy
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>> to begin with. You just don't HAVE to eat, you know.
>I don't dispute this, but it means you end up reliant on body fat
>reserves rather than carbohydrate. Is this a bad thing? Well,
>possibly. Body fat is very high in energy but designed for storage.
>Burning it is far more difficult than burning carbohydrate, which is
>already close to the form needed, so it's far more difficult for your
>body to muster the energy if you're running on fat. Mustering that
>little extra energy can be important in a one day summit push.
I just noticed that this was crossposted to rec.climbing as well. I
don't know how appropriate fasting would be while climbing, since it
requires bursts of energy. Walking, on the other hand, is slow and
steady kinda thing.
...At the same time, I do seem to recall people doing extremely
strenious climbs for many hours on nothing but a sandwich.
-= Ivan =-
Crazy
Mike Yukish <may...@psu.edu> wrote:
>>> Anti-foodman sez:
>>> You just don't HAVE to eat, you know.
>>
>> Chef Boy-R-U-nuts sez:
>I have to say that their is some truth in what our
>anorexic hiker states.
Anorexic my ass. I can eat two large pizzas with all the draft beer
you can give me. And I usually DO eat that, especially if someone else
is buying. I also can skip both lunch and dinner (my breakfast is
coffee only) without noticing much. ...It reminds of a friend of mine
with whom we were walking around in Europe. We got out of the hotel,
going siteseeing. Since she was really wanting to eat, I said: "We'll
get a bite to eat somewhere on the way." Well, I forgot about that.
Thirty minutes later she almost fainted. She was really sick. That
girl HAD to have some food. So we went to have breakfast.
>I spent a week+ in March in the
>mountains of Maine, slogging around in snowshoes through
>the forest the whole time. We went from before sunrise to
>after sundown. We went up and down the ridges, forded
>streams, built snow caves, the whole works. Maximum effort
>continuously. My food and drink for those nine days was a
>handful of rice cooked in chicken broth, two packs of
>cherry lifesavers, and about a thousand gallons of water.
>No, I didn't do it for fun. It was survival training in
>the military.
Well, military is different. The shithead (Chef Boy-R-U-nuts, I guess)
who originally replied to my post probably wears velcro spandex shit
with the NO FEAR signs all over it, and unless he eats two strawaberry
power bars with vitamins, minerals and all the shit in there, he can't
even tie his harness on - that low is he on energy. "Geez, man, I just
can't do that cross-step today. I missed my power bar this morning! I
just hate it, when I miss my power bar. ...Lookie now, even my pony
tail doesn't hold anymore. I hate it when my pony tail does that!"
Face it, half the idiots in them climbing gyms are so tied into high
tech equipment, powerbars, cool looks and stickers, that if they miss
their monthly subsription to their yuppy climbing magazine full of
advertising of high tech equipment, powerbars, cool looks and
stickers, they'll have a fucking heart attack. ...We're not even
gonna talk about missing lunch.
>I lost ten pounds, and it definitely was not water weight.
>Other than that, my performance did not droop that much,
>if at all. I think the need for food is overstated.
Exactly. It is a conditioned thing and it can be unconditioned (within
limits, of course).
-= Ivan =-
Dingus Milktoast
Mike Yukish writes:
> I have to say that their is some truth in what our
> anorexic hiker states. I spent a week+ in March in the
> mountains of Maine, slogging around in snowshoes through
> the forest the whole time. We went from before sunrise to
> after sundown. We went up and down the ridges, forded
> streams, built snow caves, the whole works. Maximum effort
> continuously. My food and drink for those nine days was a
> handful of rice cooked in chicken broth, two packs of
> cherry lifesavers, and about a thousand gallons of water.
Then you weren't fasting, were you my good man? Sure you didn't eat anything
else you'd rather not admit to in the light of day?
The original question was about doing long day climbs at altitude.
Specificially, the poster had tried to climb Mt. Whitney and White Mtn. peak.
Both of these mountains top out at over 14K. In the case of Mt. Whitney, the
relief from the trailhead to the summit is over 6000 feet. He ran out of energy
because he didn't take enough food. He wasn't hiking on park-like trails over
rolling hills. He wasn't shoveling snow. He wasn't wandering lost in the woods,
for Pete's sake. He was climbing a damn mountain!
Now I've climbed both; Whitney 3 times. I've been mountaineering for 20 years
and have numerous peaks to my credit. My experience tells me, no disrespect
intended, that you're full of it (hot air that is, obviously no food). Fasting
and then climbing is a lousy idea. Advice to fast before Mtn. climbing is
irresponsible and suggests that you lack a basic understanding of what it feels
like to climb at altitude.
I state my challenge again: Fast for 10 days straight, then go climb Mt.
Rainier. If you live, be sure to post the TR.
DMT
Dingus Milktoast
Crazy Ivan rants:
> The shithead (Chef Boy-R-U-nuts, I guess)
> who originally replied to my post probably wears velcro spandex shit
> with the NO FEAR signs all over it, and unless he eats two strawaberry
> power bars with vitamins, minerals and all the shit in there, he can't
> even tie his harness on - that low is he on energy.
I've actually climbed the two peaks in question. How about you?
> "Geez, man, I just
> can't do that cross-step today. I missed my power bar this morning! I
> just hate it, when I miss my power bar. ...Lookie now, even my pony
> tail doesn't hold anymore. I hate it when my pony tail does that!"
> Face it, half the idiots in them climbing gyms are so tied into high
> tech equipment, powerbars, cool looks and stickers, that if they miss
> their monthly subsription to their yuppy climbing magazine full of
> advertising of high tech equipment, powerbars, cool looks and
> stickers, they'll have a fucking heart attack. ...We're not even
> gonna talk about missing lunch.
You are SO literate. Where'd you learn to talk like that? I bet all the
mountain climbers you know talk like that! Man, you are SO cool. Can you teach
me to talk the same shit you preach?
> Exactly. It is a conditioned thing and it can be unconditioned (within
> limits, of course).
Yeah right. You sir, are full of shit. I challenge you again, Mr. Fast. Don't
eat a thing, not even a cockroach (a hardman powerbar if ever there was one),
for 10 days, then go climb Mt Rainier. Put you money where your mouth is, boy.
DMT
Dingus Milktoast
Mike Yukish
In article <N.092596.094006.01@HARRISHOME> Dingus
Milktoast, crha...@pacbell.net writes:
>Then you weren't fasting, were you my good man? Sure you didn't eat anything
>else you'd rather not admit to in the light of day?
>
>The original question was about doing long day climbs at altitude.
>Specificially, the poster had tried to climb Mt. Whitney and White Mtn. peak.
>Both of these mountains top out at over 14K. In the case of Mt. Whitney, the
>relief from the trailhead to the summit is over 6000 feet. He ran out of energy
>because he didn't take enough food. He wasn't hiking on park-like trails over
>rolling hills. He wasn't shoveling snow. He wasn't wandering lost in the woods,
>for Pete's sake. He was climbing a damn mountain!
>
Dear Mr Dingus,
I appreciate your reply, which I shall respond to.
First, I said there was some truth in his post. Fasting
for one day does not kill someone. I backed it up personal
experience. The rice and lifesavers came on day seven. So
I did fast for six days, didn't I? So what. Minor
difference betwen little food and no food. And no, I
didn't eat anything else in the light of day, or
otherwise. We were allowed to eat whatever we could find,
but we didn't find anything to eat. Not much flora or
fauna in March in Maine (Rangeley area, for those who know
it). For those who might have been through it, it was SERE
school.
Slogging through thigh deep snow in snowshoes carrying a
heavy pack in late winter, climbing up and down ridges
over, under and around all of the deadfall is no walk in
the park. You've been mountaineering 20 years, ever been
glad to get the bushwacking done and get above timberline?
As for vertical feet covered, beats me. It was lots, in
500 ft chunks.
I didn't say I advocated fasting for one day/week/month. I
advocate bringing along peanut brittle for the day's
climb. Quick sugar boost, tastes good, sits in your
stomach.
>Advice to fast before Mtn. climbing is irresponsible...
I agree. So who's giving that advice? Not me.
I guess my point is this: Doing without food for a day is
not as dibilitating as many make it out to be. You just
don't know what is possible without food until you try it.
I tried, logged that data point, and have stored it away.
I don't understand the flame aspect of your post. Did you
think I lied? That I exagerated how little food I ate?
Throttle back, Dingus. It's only rec.climbing
**********************************
Dingus Milktoast
Mike Yukish writes:
> First, I said there was some truth in his post. Fasting
> for one day does not kill someone.
True.
> Slogging through thigh deep snow in snowshoes carrying a
> heavy pack in late winter, climbing up and down ridges
> over, under and around all of the deadfall is no walk in
> the park. You've been mountaineering 20 years, ever been
> glad to get the bushwacking done and get above timberline?
Yes. Your point is well taken.
> I didn't say I advocated fasting for one day/week/month.
You didn't. Crazy Ivan did. You said there was some truth to what he said. I
was merely pointing out that I think there is little truth to what he said, as
it applies to the original question of mountaineering.
> >Advice to fast before Mtn. climbing is irresponsible...
>
> I agree. So who's giving that advice? Not me.
Ok. See point above.
>
> I guess my point is this: Doing without food for a day is
> not as dibilitating as many make it out to be.
Depends on what you're doing. Doing without food for a day could be far more
dibilitating than some make it out to be as well. If doing without food on a
major climb precipitated an accident through lack of attention, death could be
the result.
> You just
> don't know what is possible without food until you try it.
> I tried, logged that data point, and have stored it away.
Cool.
>
> I don't understand the flame aspect of your post. Did you
> think I lied?
Nope.
> That I exagerated how little food I ate?
No. Was just joking about survival training cuisine!
> Throttle back, Dingus. It's only rec.climbing
Sorry if I offended. I still think it's absurd advice to fast before
mountaineering.
DMT
Dingus Milktoast
Mike Yukish writes:
Dingus stipulated:
> >The original question was about doing long day climbs at altitude.
> >Specificially, the poster had tried to climb Mt. Whitney and White Mtn.
> peak.
> >Both of these mountains top out at over 14K. In the case of Mt. Whitney, the
> >relief from the trailhead to the summit is over 6000 feet. He ran out of
> energy
> >because he didn't take enough food. He wasn't hiking on park-like trails
> over
> >rolling hills. He wasn't shoveling snow. He wasn't wandering lost in the
> woods,
> >for Pete's sake. He was climbing a damn mountain!
> >
>
> Slogging through thigh deep snow in snowshoes carrying a
> heavy pack in late winter, climbing up and down ridges
> over, under and around all of the deadfall is no walk in
> the park. You've been mountaineering 20 years, ever been
> glad to get the bushwacking done and get above timberline?
> As for vertical feet covered, beats me. It was lots, in
> 500 ft chunks.
>
I felt an additional clarification was in order here. Even though I agree with
the point you make above, please consider the following scenario:
I do a lot of mountaineering "in a day." That is the context of the original
question. I've made at least 8 of these day attempts this summer, with about a
50% success ratio. Here's the time line for a one day attempt on the Swiss
Arete of Mt. Sill...
Trailhead, 4am, elevation 8000 feet. Start walking.
Guess at least 8 miles of approach, to an elevation above 12000 feet on the
Palasades Glacier and Glacier notch. We got there too late to risk the climb
without axes and crampons. We bagged it and descended the S. Fork drainage (no
trail, miles (literally) of talus walking.
Another 8 miles back out, to the car at 9pm.
18 miles (guess, probably more), 8000+ feet of vertical, all at altitude.
Others include Mt. Shasta, Matterhorn Pk., Mt. Conness, Temple Crag, Mt Abbott;
all in a day from the trailhead.
Sustained activity at altitude can be debilitating, especially for those not
acclimated. I live near sea level. I'm telling you there is a big difference
and it must be experienced to be appreciated. The original poster had lived
through and described this "hitting the wall." I've been there, done that more
times than I care to remember. My lessons, hard earned, suggest that large
quantities of water and a steady intake of food throughout the day will help
alleviate/eliminate these problems.
DMT
Chris Weaver
Crazy wrote the following bullshit on one post:
> Well, military is different. The shithead (Chef Boy-R-U-nuts, I guess)
> who originally replied to my post probably wears velcro spandex shit
> with the NO FEAR signs all over it, and unless he eats two strawaberry
> power bars with vitamins, minerals and all the shit in there, he can't
> can't do that cross-step today. I missed my power bar this morning! I
> just hate it, when I miss my power bar. ...Lookie now, even my pony
> tail doesn't hold anymore. I hate it when my pony tail does that!"
And then wrote this on another post:
> I just noticed that this was crossposted to rec.climbing as well. I
> don't know how appropriate fasting would be while climbing, since it
> requires bursts of energy. Walking, on the other hand, is slow and
> steady kinda thing.
> ...At the same time, I do seem to recall people doing extremely
> strenious climbs for many hours on nothing but a sandwich.
So which is it, Ivan? Do you think climbers are pussies that can't climb anything
unless they eat powerbars, or do you think that they are hardmen/women who can
perform "extremely strenuous climbs for many hours on nothing but a sandwich?"
Apparently you haven't thought through your position clearly enough. It does look
like you tried to talk trash about climbers behind their backs, then when you
realized that they actually *saw* the drivel you were spewing, you backed off and
changed your position. Don't be a pussy. If you know what you think, stick to it.
If not, simply shut your stupid yap before you shove the *other* foot into it.
Chris Weaver
P.S. If you think you can pigeon-hole a large group of people like "climbers" into
a single personality profile, you are stupider than even the above posts suggest.
Crazy
Chris Weaver <cwe...@erols.com> wrote:
>So which is it, Ivan? Do you think climbers are pussies that can't climb anything
>unless they eat powerbars, or do you think that they are hardmen/women who can
>perform "extremely strenuous climbs for many hours on nothing but a sandwich?"
Well, that depends on which climber are we talking about. A dumbass is
a dumbass, climbing or not. The fact that one knows how to tie a
figure eight or can top-rope a 5.9 doesn't cure him from idiocy.
Those who do "extremely strenuous climbs for many hours on nothing but
a sandwich" don't come across as dumbasses.
>Apparently you haven't thought through your position clearly enough. It does look
>like you tried to talk trash about climbers behind their backs, then when you
>realized that they actually *saw* the drivel you were spewing, you backed off and
>changed your position.
Don't be a dumbass. The post you are refering to as "backing off" was
posted first, at 10:53. The post you're calling "trash" was send 30
minutes later. So if I was so worried who read it and who didn't, I
wouldn't be nice first and nasty second.
Now then, if you wanna discuss what's being discussed, go ahead. If
not, mind your business quietly.
>Don't be a pussy.
You know, you use the term "pussy" in a very negative connotation
(even though I snipped your other pussy references) and I strongly
object to that. Let us get one thing straight, shall we: Pussy is
good!!!
-= Ivan =-
Brutus of Wyde
> crha...@pacbell.net (Dingus Milktoast) writes:
> I state my challenge again: Fast for 10 days straight, then go climb Mt.
> Rainier. If you live, be sure to post the TR.
[pushing my horn-rimmed glasses back up on my nose,
pointing at the chalkboard]
Lab assignment is:
In order to approximate the elevation gains involved in the original
post, this empirical investigation shall include
a round trip to Columbia Crest via Liberty Cap from approximately
8,000 feet on the mountain, (Carbon Glacier) in under 20 hours,
without being acclimated to said starting elevation first.
Trip reports will be due two weeks from today. Helmets, axes,
crampons and topo maps will be available from the Lab storeroom.
Since Liberty Ridge involves various climbing techniques not
normally required by ascents of the other peaks mentioned, it
is a more stringent test of our hypothesis and consequent
possible applications in the world of mountaineering.
Performance will be compared to performance of a control: a well-fed
and hydrated climber who munches a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
during the ascent, and chomps on her favorite energy food as needed.
Climbers demonstrating optimum performance can make a side trip
to Point Success for extra credit. Grading will be on the curve.
On yer mark, get set.....
Oh, almost forgot:
The reading assignment for this week is
"Hypothermia, Killer of the Unprepared"
Some nice case studies there.
Class Dismissed.
Sincerely,
Miss Information
"I am not a fast climber. I am not a slow climber. I am a
half-fast climber."
Mike Yukish
In article <52c4pu$h...@lal.interserv.com> Brutus of Wyde,
bbin...@ebmud.com writes:
>Performance will be compared to performance of a control: a well-fed
>and hydrated climber who munches a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
>during the ascent, and chomps on her favorite energy food as needed.
>Climbers demonstrating optimum performance can make a side trip
>to Point Success for extra credit. Grading will be on the curve.
>
>
Seems like we should include the other extreme as well:
Rush Limbaugh-shaped (or Rosanne Barrish) humanoid
sponsored by Power Bar, Gatorade, Seattle Wine & Cheese
Society, Flintstones vitamins, Gorp-R-Us, Joe Weider's
Protein Sludge, Herbal Essence products (It's a shampoo!
No! Its a food additive!) ....
Said party will be accompanied by sherpa toting full
selection of snacks and beverages, to be snarfed at will.
Goal will be to prove/disprove anyone can climb with the
right food.
je...@nacm.com
Dingus Milktoast writes
>There is a new product out (well, it's been around awhile) called Gu
I love this stuff! :)
It really works and it's easy to transport, too! My personal favs are
Vanilla and Orange Burst!
-jean "and my partners think I eat weird food"
Jennifer Philion
Why on earth would anyone starve him/herself before going on a hike? Are
you hoping to get the most out of the workout or something? After twelve
hours without food, the body starts feeding on muscle tissue, not fat
storage. The fat doesn't get touched until you've fasted for about five
days. Even then, the body continues to absorb lean muscle tissue to get
the nutrients that fat doesn't provide. So by starving yourself you're
damaging your muscle tissue, and then you expect those tissues to
support you in a 14er climb? _Not_ a wise idea.
cleo
jen logan
Here are some of the things that have dragged me back from the depths of
hypoglycemic hell on backcountry ski trips in the Wasatch and Tetons --
I've also employed the same culinary approach on warm-weather climbing
trips in the mountains, with good results.
I have repeated the experiment several times with all of the appropriate
controls. (hey, they taught me to think this way.) My conclusion: you
don't need to go high-tech to get what you need.
My distilled list, in order of preference:
1. Mother's Iced Oatmeal Cookies. The whole bag.
2. Bagels, preferably lavished with jalapeno cream cheese.
3. Hot tea in a lightweight thermos -- or -- a Nalgene water bottle
loaded in the a.m. with warm water and a tea bag. As the water cools,
you end up with cold stuff that tastes better than water.
4. Those individually-wrapped cheese sticks -- cheddar or mozarrella
string cheese. But keep them buried in your pack -- if they endure the
hike in the outside pocket of your coat, you're screwed. Cheesesicle.
5. Peppermint Schnapps (not the whole bottle, of course; just a sip or
two for when you get to the top. Leave the rest of the bottle in the
car for the post-descent celebration.)
In other words, bring more food than you did. I'm not surprised that
you got hungry. I personally believe that the extra weight is
negotiable, and the benefit is well worth it.
Cheers,
Jen Logan
Bbindner
Mike Yukish <may...@psu.edu> wrote:
>One thing you learn is that if you are in a place where
>water is scarce, you should cut way back on your eating,
>no matter what it is. It takes water to digest food, same
>as it takes water to wash clothes. Got to get everything
>sloshing around in there (I believe that's the medical
>term for it).
Based on uncounted days in heat waves, my experience has
been that, when you are low enough on water, your eating will
cut back involuntarily.
[memories of canned tuna turning to sawdust in the mouth,
and even apples causing involuntary retching.... Don't even TALK to
me about those bagels... of even Progresso Minestrone Soup
being barely palatable]
Even recent experiences suggest this: In July a friend and I
climbed Lurking Thirst on the Captain....
One gallon per person per day wasn't nearly enough.
It was a real chore to eat enough to stay functional,
[fasting argument deleted]
We found 2.5 gallons of booty water at Thanksgulping
Ledge, finally were able to eat. [and we still topped out dry!]
Thirstus of Dried
Oakland, California
Andrew Gale
> Mike Yukish <may...@psu.edu> wrote:
> ...
My food and drink for those nine days was a
> >handful of rice cooked in chicken broth, two packs of
> >cherry lifesavers, and about a thousand gallons of water.
>
> >the military.
Ahhh, yes. That explains it. Hence the classic oxymoron
"military intelligence".
Clearly this has no bearing on whether or not the original poster
should have eaten more food when he bonked while climbing a 14er.
Andy
--
*******************************************************
Andrew Gale The Scripps Research Institute
ag...@scripps.edu La Jolla, CA
**********http://minihelix.mit.edu/andy/ ***************
david mann
This thread has gotten silly. The poor guy who started it
clearly bonked on Whitney. The causes for bonking are clearly
understood and all the information you need can be found
by picking up a book on your favorite endurance sport
like running or cycling. Eat small amounts often, stay
hydrated and incorporate LSD into your workout regiem
(that's long slow distance).
Mike, low caloric intake is a terrible way to loose weight.
It puts the metobolism into "concentration camp" mode in
which calories are quickly converted to fat when reintroduced.
This is why low calorie diets fail and inches lost are quickly
regained. Secondly, yes you can continue to function but
not at high levels. Escape and evasion training has goals
other than efficiency, no? Safety is defined differently.
Ivan, get back on you medication. Next we're going to
hear about is how fasting helps foster vision quests.
Back into the sweat lodge with you.
Dingus, Fish and Game officials say you can only play
one fish on a line at a time. Time to extract the hook
from one of their mouths. You can only fish like this
in r.s.a.
david mann
: P.S. If you think you can pigeon-hole a large group of people like
Stupider is as stupider does, dude.
Krishnan .N
Dingus Milktoast (crha...@pacbell.net) wrote:
< .. del .. >
: Yeah right. You sir, are full of shit. I challenge you again, Mr. Fast. Don't
: eat a thing, not even a cockroach (a hardman powerbar if ever there was one),
: for 10 days, then go climb Mt Rainier. Put you money where your mouth is, boy.
: DMT
Hello NoOrdinaryMilkToast,
Just to put things in perceptive (that's code for adding fuel to the
fire), Jains fast for 1 week to 45 days, depending upon the level of
control they have - seems to have a lot to do with practice; older
people typically fast longer. They drink water during sunrise, nothing
the rest of the day. The really hard-core ones don't even swallow
their own spittle.
What i'm saying is starvation is no great shakes for some Yoga types.
To paraphrase: Shut you stomach and your ass will follow.
Kid i know has been fasting the whole of last week. He must be, what?
20, 21 yrs old. One week without anything solid, only water once in
the day. Makes me dizzy just thinking about it. This guy seemingly
doesn't have any after-affects. Been going to college (school) and
doing the normal things. No, he didn't come out 'climbing last
weekend.
BTW, i'm always on a diet. I eat anytime i can lay my hands on food.
AND i have a weight problem; I am 6 kgs under-weight. The only time i
put on significant weight was up in the mountains last year. "You
should eat well, as much as you can. People lose their appetite at
high altitude, so force yourself to eat as much as you can" said poor
Dr. Teji (are you there?). I almost ran thru their rations.
krishnan
PS: What did the air hostess tell the starving Jain? "Sorry sir, i can't tighten
the seatbelt any more. Shall we pack the pillow around your stomach?"
Markus F Bj|rksten
Below is a repost of an old article of mine.
------------
For pack weight minimization for longer trips in Finnish conditions,
less carried food is suggested in some common references, eg. p303
[1] (8.7MJ/d, 10d, 'normal conditions') and is practiced by some
[my observation].
Two survival experiments of the Swedish Army:
I. Refs [2,4]. 9 days, midwinter, Swedish Lappland (forest) with gathered
natural food only (mainly beard liechens). Distance moved 130km (skis&ahkio)
+ food gathering, emergency bivouacs, incomplete equipment, no (ski)trails
used. Energy intake at least (estimate) 1MJ/d (250 kcal/d), average
temperature -31C, on four days temperature below -41C, coldest -46C with
7..8m/s wind. Fairly constant but lower than normal blood suggar levels,
fairly high protein loss and ketoprodcution. No cold injuries, mission
succesful.
II. Refs [3,4]. Stockholm archipelago, 7 days, September. Distance 170km,
evasion (very heavy excercise), foot/kayak. Gathered food only (apprx
4.8MJ/d). Normal blood suggar level, no ketoproducts, very low loss of
protein. Mission succesfull.
The carbohydrate reserves of the body last for 1..2 days, fat reserves
for around 4 weeks. Intensive work feels difficult when fat is used
as energy source, but monotonous lower intensity work does not [4].
Fat is the principal energy reserve of the body, and is used after
carbohydrate reserves are gone, but before muscles (protein). Some
fat is used also while the carbohydrate reserves last especially
if the person is well trained in long duration excercise [6].
The body needs carbohydrates (apprx 2.1MJ/d, 70kg male [4]) for effective
fat metabolism wihtout producing harmful byproducts (ketons). If
carbohydrates are not obtained from food, muscle protein will be used
to produce carbohydrates.
Assuming normal 70kg male, 10km/d, emergency bivouac, fire, bare mark [4]:
I. In 10d with sufficient water only. Weight reduction apprx 8.5kg of
which 3kg muscles and 5.5kg fat. Very low blood suggar. Incomplete
fat metabolism, keton production and consequent kalium loss. B
and C vitamin deprivation.
II. 10d with 2MJ carbohydrates/d & sufficient water. Weight loss 6kg,
(1kg muscle, 5kg fat). Close to normal blood suggar, no keto production.
Both in I and II remain funcitonal, but II is in much better shape with
only high intensity/fast/heavy work being difficult.
Refs [5 and 6] quote 5MJ/d as the 'minimal' energy requirement to
for a 65kg male in military field conditions.
Apprx average energy requirements, 70kg 'average healthy' male, [3]:
Heavy marsch: 2.9MJ/h
Normal military activity in field: 18MJ/d. (15MJ/d for 65kg
male according to [5].)
7d survival excercise in extreme cold: 25MJ/d.
REFERENCES:
[1] O. Aulio, 'Suuri retkeilykirja', Gummerus 1990.
[2] K{llman, FOA rapport C 50025-H 1, 1985.
[3] K{llman, FOA rapport C 50022-H 1, 1985.
[4] 'Handbok |verlevnad', Armen, 1988.
[5] 'Luonnonmuonaohje', Puolustusvoimat, 1985.
[6] 'Sotilasterveydenhuolto', Koskenvuo (ed), 3rd ed, Puolustusvoimat,
1996.
Markus Bjorksten
Markus F Bj|rksten
Below is a repost of an old article of mine.
-----
For pack weight minimization for longer trips in Finnish conditions,
less carried food is suggested in some common references, eg. p303
[1] (8.7MJ/d, 10d, 'normal conditions') and is practiced by some
[my observation].
Two survival experiments of the Swedish Army:
I. Refs [2,4]. 9 days, midwinter, Swedish Lappland with gathered natural food
only (mainly liechens). Distance moved 130km (skis&ahkio) + food gathering,
emergency bivouacs, incomplete equipment, no (ski)trails used. Energy
intake at least (estimate) 1MJ/d (250 kcal/d), average temperature
-31C, on four days temperature below -41C, coldest -46C with 7..8m/s wind.
Fairly constant but lower than normal blood suggar levels, fairly high
protein loss and ketoprodcution. No cold injuries, mission succesful.
II. Refs [3,4]. Stockholm archipelago, 7 days, September. Distance 170km,
escape & evasion (very heavy excercise), foot/kayak. Gathered food
only (apprx 4.8MJ/d). Normal blood suggar level, no ketoproducts, very low
loss of protein. Mission succesfull.
The carbohydrate reserves of the body last for 1..2 days, fat reserves
for around 4 weeks. Intensive work feels difficult when fat is used
as energy source, but monotonous lower intensity work does not [4].
Fat is the principal energy reserve of the body, and is used after
carbohydrate reserves are gone, but before muscles (protein). Some
fat is used also while the carbohydrate reserves last especially
if the person is well trained in long duration excercise [6].
The body needs carbohydrates (apprx 2.1MJ/d, 70kg male [4]) for effective
fat metabolism wihtout producing harmful byproducts (ketons). If
carbohydrates are not obtained from food, muscle protein will be used
to produce carbohydrates.
Assuming normal 70kg male, 10km/d, emergency bivouac, fire, bare mark [4]:
I. In 10d with sufficient water only. Weight reduction apprx 8.5kg of
which 3kg muscles and 5.5kg fat. Very low blood suggar. Incomplete
fat metabolism, keton production and consequent kalium loss. B
and C vitamin deprivation.
II. 10d with 2MJ carbohydrates/d & sufficient water. Weight loss 6kg,
(1kg muscle, 5kg fat). Close to normal blood suggar, no keto production.
Both in I and II remain funcitonal, but II is in much better shape with
only high intensity/fast/heavy work being difficult.
Refs [5 and 6] quote 5MJ/d as the 'minimal' energy requirement
for a 65kg male in military field conditions.
Apprx average energy requirements, 70kg 'average healthy' male, [4]:
Heavy marsch: 2.9MJ/h
Normal military activity in field: 18MJ/d. (15MJ/d for 65kg
male according to [5].)
7d survival excercise in extreme cold: 25MJ/d.
REFERENCES:
[1] O. Aulio, 'Suuri retkeilykirja', Gummerus 1990.
[2] K{llman, FOA rapport C 50025-H 1, 1985.
[3] K{llman, FOA rapport C 50022-H 1, 1985.
[4] 'Handbok |verlevnad', Armen, 1988.
[5] 'Luonnonmuonaohje', Puolustusvoimat, 1985.
[6] 'Sotilasterveydenhuolto', A. Koskenvuo (ed), 3rd ed, Puolustusvoimat,
1996.
Markus Bjorksten
Andrew Halperin
In article <324725...@bellsouth.net>,
Allan Chong <al...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Tuan Tran wrote:
>>
>
>> We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all
>> we brought was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened
>> as it got colder. What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ?
>> and in the cold climate ?
>
>
>For meals, just take lots of fat. It really grosses you out packing
>for the trip, but once you get out in the cold, your body craves
>fat. We'd take 3 packs of Ramen, add 1/2 pound of cheese, a half
>stick of butter and have a meal for 2. Take a look at what
>the Eskimos eat--lots of fatty foods. Mmmmmmmm, butter.
>You'll have to eat any fat at night otherwise you can't digest it.
>
>allan
Ummmm, sorry about this one, I am going to have to disagree.
Besides the fact of a drastic possible shift in your normal
dietary habits making you sick, eating this much fat will
just make you full (and increase your HDL levels).
The reason "fatty" foods have been correlated to keeping warm
is because most of them are extremely calorie dense. Eating
the equivalent in other foods eg, complex carbs, protien etc.
will do the same and probably be much more palatable.
The best thing you can do for keeping warm is:
1) Dress appropriately (stay dry)
2) Stay Hydrated
3) Maintain a sufficient calorie intake (eat all day)
4) Sleep warm (proper bag & dry)
5) Stay Hydrated
6) Stay Hydrated
Hot drinks at camp help and make sure you keep dry by "towling"
off or changing clothes/underwear if they become wet enough that
your body heat will not dry them in a short period of time.
Staying warm in the winter is not derived from caloric intake
alone it is a continuous task that requires attention throughout
the day and night.
In response to the original poster.....granola bars are pretty
good the more "grainy" they are the lower likelyhood they have
to freeze. I usually carry one or two in my bib pocket next to
me to keep them flexible. Powerbars become a weapon in the
winter capable of being used as a wrecking bar ;-). Poptarts
do very well in the winter and are quite calorie dense (200+ per).
Also the lower the water content the more flexible they usually stay.
Good luck
--
Andrew F. Halperin E-mail: a...@nt.com
NORTEL/CCI Rochester, NY
Advanced Network Services (716) 654-2177
Senior Technical Specialist www.rit.edu/~afh9725/welcome.html
Eric Coomer
In article <52c72g$t...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>,
Mike Yukish <may...@psu.edu> wrote:
>Seems like we should include the other extreme as well:
>
>Rush Limbaugh-shaped (or Rosanne Barrish) humanoid
>sponsored by Power Bar, Gatorade, Seattle Wine & Cheese
>Society, Flintstones vitamins, Gorp-R-Us, Joe Weider's
>Protein Sludge, Herbal Essence products (It's a shampoo!
>No! Its a food additive!) ....
Uh... Don Whillans, though he's been dead for a few years.
What a belly on that boy. Makes me feel not so bad sometimes.
Cheers
Eric
Let's hear it for the fat slobs! :O
Paddy Iyer
ah, this is certainly attaining gargantum proportions.
what started of as an innocous query, has evolved into
a spittle contest.
if it's all a q of starvation etc, for extended periods
of time, and how beneficial/detrimental it is to one's
health, why not look into islam or take a peek at hinduism
and its various offshoots. of course, these religious
tenets did not consider hiking/climbing etc, but
maybe noteworthy contributors to <rec.starved-of-climbing>
could improvise.
cheers
paddy
rambling on the <rec.> till the database comes up.
Mike Yukish
In article <32495A...@scripps.edu> Andrew Gale,
ag...@scripps.edu writes:
>Ahhh, yes. That explains it. Hence the classic oxymoron
>"military intelligence".
>
Explains what? Thanks for the cheap shot, Andy.
>Clearly this has no bearing on whether or not the original poster
>should have eaten more food when he bonked while climbing a 14er.
Au contraire.
I think the question to be answered is whether the peak
was "his but for the lack of a powerbar..."
Following the thread, poster asked whether and what he
should have ate before 'bonking'. Many replied that
butter, p-bars, granola, etc... are the tasty choice of
the day. Someone else, in the long tradition of 'devil's
advocatism' on netnews, suggested fasting, backing up the
claims with tales of monks going chowless for extended
periods. The thread had taken a turn (for the worst?)
Someone else pulled out their pocket propane torch, and
lit our brave faster up stating he was nuts and stating
'you can't get there from here' without a steady stream of
food.
I disagreed, based on personal experience. I related such.
After more controversy, a post from scandanavia showed
hard results. The meat of them? Going without carbos is OK
for a day or two, before the fat burning kicks in. The
body is able to perform at a moderate but continuous level
while fasting, but is not up to snuff for periods of
maximum output.
Of course the whole altitude thing entered into the
thread, because Mt Whitney is 14K'. Since I haven't
climbed Mt Whitney (flown over it) I don't know just what
level of intensity is required to climb it. Low but
steady. Occasional bursts of high intensity? 5.3 to the
top? Beats me.
The possibility remains that maybe it was the altitude.
Maybe the original poster is not sufficiently prepared to
do Mt Whitney no matter what the food. The point of my
post is that the attitude "Mine but for the lack of a
powerbar..." may or may not be appropriate. Maybe more
fitness training is what is required. They did bring
granola bars and powerbars, according to the original post.
bob armstrong
bjor...@tuuba.hut.fi (Markus F Bj|rksten) wrote:
>Below is a repost of an old article of mine.
>
>-----
>For pack weight minimization for longer trips in Finnish conditions,
>less carried food is suggested in some common references, eg. p303
>[1] (8.7MJ/d, 10d, 'normal conditions') and is practiced by some
>[my observation].
>
>Two survival experiments of the Swedish Army:
>
This is rather interesting, but I don't see how it fits with the rec
part of rec.backcountry. Military people in the outdoors are there to
prepare for the possibility that they will be needing to survive out
there, not have fun. From what I know about military training exercises,
a major part of the point is to get the soldiers accustomed to being
extremely miserable and in a lot of pain (my soon to be brother in law is
always limping about or applying salve to wounds resulting from 24 hour
marches in the dark with a 100 pound pack or something like that). You
want soldiers to be able to endure that sort of thing just in case it is
ever necessary. People who do that sort of thing for recreation, though,
have a rather twisted definition of recreation.
Bob Armstrong
Crazy
pa...@fs.com (Paddy Iyer) wrote:
>if it's all a q of starvation etc, for extended periods
>of time, and how beneficial/detrimental it is to one's
>health, why not look into islam or take a peek at hinduism
>and its various offshoots. of course, these religious
>tenets did not consider hiking/climbing etc, but
>maybe noteworthy contributors to <rec.starved-of-climbing>
>could improvise.
Wrong, babe, wrong. Some religious tenets DO consider hiking/climbing
while fasting. Tibetian Lamas have been doing it for many years. We're
talking about hiking at a high altitude, no food, snow, cold, often
blizards, no sleep and continious hiking - day and night. It was done
in the olden days in order to get from one monastery to another (in
order to relay a message, to attend a festival or for other reasons).
The terrain would not allow for using a mule, yak or other beast of
burden and if you simply did it in the regular (rest and eat) manner,
you'd never be able to carry all the provisions with you. You'll
simply freeze to death. You had to keep moving and you had to be
moving constantly! Those were the original eXtreme, high altitute
marathoners.
Currently, the practice still exists within Shinto monk communities in
Japan. There is a book by John Stevens on them. It came out fairly
recently.
-= Ivan =-
Sherwood Botsford
On winter dogsled expeditions (Very hard work, but no altitude sickness)
(Long term -- 1-2 weeks of this.)
we generally have breakfast of bannock, bacon & oatmeal. The bannock
(Trail biscuits) is precooked. The bacon is heated in a pot until half
cooked, the bannock used to soak up a lot of grease, then the limp bacon
stuffed inside. (This sounds nauseating, but at -35 C it's wonderful)
Lunch varies, but is usually some variation of gorp, about half nuts,
half dried fruit. Maybe some choc. chips. Takes between 2 and 3 cups
per day.
Supper is conventional -- macaroni, rice, barley, but with lots of
either fat pork or margarine added to the mix.
Earlier someone commented drink -- I agree. If you piss turns yellow,
you're not drinking enough.
I would suggest that you add some form of flavored sugar to your water.
Most people will drink more if it sweet. It's also an easy way to get
calories into you. From what I've read of sports medicine, about 7%
sugar works best -- this corresponds to most drinks diluted about 50%
over what the directions say. (Many commercial fruit drinks run 10-12%
sugar)
Be cautious about drinking large quantities of very cold water. If
you're hot, fine. But if you're already cold, a liter of ice water will
chill your core further, and will take nearly an hour to warm up using
the usual 100 watts figure for normal Basal Metabolic Rate.
As you dehydrate, the viscosity of your blood increases -- it becomes
less effective at moving oxygen and CO2. At high energy output levels
this becomes noticable between 1-2% of body weight. If you're the
mythical average 150 lb person, this translates to 1.5 to 3 lbs. By 5%
hard work becomes nearly impossible.
In addition basal metabolic rate slows down, so you're not generating as
much heat. Because the blood is thicker, it doesn't travel well through
those fine skin capillaries, so it's easy to get cold.
--
Sherwood Botsford |Unsolicited email that advertises commercial
Physics Dept |activities will consitute a request for
U of Alberta |spellchecking of all words of less than three
Edmonton, AB, |characters. I charge $US500 for this service.
T6G 2J1 |There is no warranty of correctness of this service.
Berton Callicoatt
In article <52eagk$h...@news.mr.net>, Paddy Iyer <pa...@fs.com> wrote:
>ah, this is certainly attaining gargantum proportions.
>what started of as an innocous query, has evolved into
>a spittle contest.
I agree :-() !
>health, why not look into islam or take a peek at hinduism
I don't know how Hindu's conduct their fasts, but in Islam fasting
is not a very extended thing. The fasts of Ramadan are only from
sunrise to sunset. Most muslims eat quite a lot once the sun
goes down. For some the evening takes on almost a party atmosphere.
The application to extensive periods of fasting should be obvious-
there isn't one.
>and its various offshoots. of course, these religious
>tenets did not consider hiking/climbing etc, but
>maybe noteworthy contributors to <rec.starved-of-climbing>
>could improvise
Good point! Most religons use fasting as a time for quite contemplation
rather than ^^^^ physical excersion.
Just adding more fuel to the proverbial fire!
Bert
George R Crawford
I know I miss alot of this thread but alot religions use starvation
"fasting" as a way of clensing the mind and body.
Jesus fasted 40 days in the wilderness and saw some pretty trippy stuff.
<G>
Crawdad
Markus F Bj|rksten
Jennifer Philion >
> After twelve hours without food, the body starts feeding on muscle
> tissue, not fat storage. The fat doesn't get touched until you've
> fasted for about five days.
Sorry, but this is completely wrong. (See my previous post on the
subject and references therein.)
Markus Bjorksten
Markus F Bj|rksten
S. Mueller >
> furthermore, as i have been told, carbohyrdates can only be dissolved
> (=digested) with the help of water and therefore use your water reserves.
> fats behave otherwise, they are not water-solvable and can be digested as
> they are.
I'm afraid Mueller is wrong, and dangerously so. All food metabolism
consumes water and one should not eat at all if risking serious lack of
water, except of course foods with a large enough water content.
Specifically, the metabolism of carbohydrates consumes _less_ water
than the that of fat or protein.
See eg [J. Wiseman, 'SAS Survival Handbook, Harvill', 1986] for a
discussion of the subject.
Markus Bjorksten
Jennifer Philion
Markus F Bj|rksten wrote:
> Sorry, but this is completely wrong. (See my previous post on the
> subject and references therein.)
sorry, can't find it. I was going off what I learned in my physical
anthropology class.
jen
Markus
Far out man. I'll file that one away...
Any way, going a few days (or a week) without anything to eat is NOT
unhealthy and DOES save weight in your pack. Not to mention the cool
dreams!
For those who have not tried it, what are you scared about? You're not
going to fade away. You blimps out there (oh you know who you are)
have enough fuel stored away for about a month stay.
Give it a try. If you think you're gonna die pack in a few PowerBars,
I won't tell anyone 8^)
MAO
bjor...@tuuba.hut.fi (Markus F Bj|rksten) wrote:
>Below is a repost of an old article of mine.
>-----
>For pack weight minimization for longer trips in Finnish conditions,
>less carried food is suggested in some common references, eg. p303
>[1] (8.7MJ/d, 10d, 'normal conditions') and is practiced by some
>[my observation].
>Two survival experiments of the Swedish Army:
>I. Refs [2,4]. 9 days, midwinter, Swedish Lappland with gathered natural food
Dingus Milktoast
Markus writes:
> Far out man. I'll file that one away...
>
> Any way, going a few days (or a week) without anything to eat is NOT
> unhealthy and DOES save weight in your pack. Not to mention the cool
> dreams!
>
> For those who have not tried it, what are you scared about? You're not
> going to fade away. You blimps out there (oh you know who you are)
> have enough fuel stored away for about a month stay.
>
> Give it a try. If you think you're gonna die pack in a few PowerBars,
> I won't tell anyone 8^)
>
I'll state my challenge again, skinny man. Don't eat for 10 days... go climb
Rainier. If you live, be sure to let us know. Otherwise, it's all just talk.
DMT
Ben Holstrom
Mike Yukish <may...@psu.edu> wrote:
> Dingus Milktoast, crha...@pacbell.net writes:
>>I'll state my challenge again, skinny man. Don't eat for 10 days... go climb
>>Rainier. If you live, be sure to let us know. Otherwise, it's all just talk.
>>
>>DMT
>
>OK, I've taken the challenge. Today is the third day of my
>fasting, imbibing nothing but water. No negative effects
>yet [cough, cough, hack...] seem to be coming on with a
>cold, though. I'm a little weary, I think I'll rest now.
>
>Anybody else see those flying monkeys?
>
>*************************************
>Mike Yukish
<snipped sig>
Mike,
From my experiences, after the 3rd day the endorphins kick in and you
loose your manifest hunger. They you begin to go on a natural high.
Have fun. Good luck. Drink lemon water!
Ben . .
Mike Yukish
In article <N.092896.090816.25@HARRISHOME> Dingus
Milktoast, crha...@pacbell.net writes:
>I'll state my challenge again, skinny man. Don't eat for 10 days... go climb
>Rainier. If you live, be sure to let us know. Otherwise, it's all just talk.
>
>DMT
>
OK, I've taken the challenge. Today is the third day of my
fasting, imbibing nothing but water. No negative effects
yet [cough, cough, hack...] seem to be coming on with a
cold, though. I'm a little weary, I think I'll rest now.
Anybody else see those flying monkeys?
*************************************
Mike Yukish
Ken Meinken
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>Back to the original question, the usual remedy is "little and often".
>Natural forms are generally best, as refined sugars in candy bars
>(including granolas) are absorbed too quickly into the system, leading
>to peaks in blood sugar (a quick rush) followed by a trough as insulin
>is over-produced to compensate. Thus, raisins, nuts, dried apple,
>apricot and banana chips are all very good. By constant nibbling at
>these you get a bit closer to a system of energy input == energy output
>than separate meals, so the body has less jiggling of resources to do.
>
Peter,
I recently read that banana chips are coated with sugar.
Ken
Pnay123
Jeez, the responses to the whole issue of fasting being benficial to
climbing long routes
is pretty amazing in that none of the replys have used professional sports
for their citiations.
All one has to do is look at the energy systems of the body and how and
what they use
for fuel. When you are in your aerobic state (general range 110-155) bhp.
your body burns fatty acids
these are either fats or carbos, which become fat if not utilized. When
you are at a heart
rate above your aerobic, you are therefore anaerobic and utilizing the
glycogyn of your
muscles and liver. When glycogyn is burned it leaves a waste called
latic acid. If you've
ever done a sprint and felt heartburn afterwards, this is latic acid
permeating into your stomach and lungs.
A body in an anaerobic state can go for 90 minutes without refueling and
hydrading,
before bonking. Those of you who have ever bonked know what I am talking
about.
Therefore
fasting before a big effort in nothing short of self-defeating, since you
are forcing your
body to use what stored fuels it already has on hand and diminishing the
staying power
one has for a long haul.
What this also has to do with big effort days is that these are usually
conducted at a overall
higher heartrate due to consequences of slow progress (i.e. boogie or
bivy) Also if you train
for these efforts you raise your anaeorbic threshold and max thereby
increasing ones ability
to metabolize latic acid faster. Why do thing the best cyclits motorpace,
do structured intervals
and the like in their workouts, you can suck up more pain and go faster.
Anyway my two cents
Pat Nay
Markus F Bj|rksten
"Dingus Milktoast" <crha...@pacbell.net> > >
> > 10 days... go climb Rainier. If you live, be sure to let
> > us know. Otherwise, it's all just talk.
Mike Yukish >
> OK, I've taken the challenge. Today is the third day of my
> fasting, imbibing nothing but water.
Mike, are you serious? While I have no idea where or what Mt.
Rainier migth be, 10d on water only should be pretty tough.
According to my references, one will not be in too good shape -
even a very low daily intake of carbohydrates would help a lot,
although high-intensity work would remain very difficult. I
suppose you know what you are doing thanks to your survival
training.
At any rate, I think it's a waste to take such a challange from
some anonymous twit on the net! Otoh, I think that the idea of
backcountry trips (not fasting at home though) on minimal
carried food is an appealing one. Learning about Nature, primitive
skills and oneself - not 'silly' or 'dumb' like some have said
here.
Markus Bjorksten
William A Deutschman
I know this is probably a long shot, but what the hell. On Sunday, I
found a pair of shoes at Smith Rock. They were found near Phoenix
Buttress. If they are yours, drop me a line and descibe them.
Will
Mike Yukish
In article <vsau3sg...@kantele.hut.fi> Markus F
Bj|rksten, bjor...@kantele.hut.fi writes:
>Mike, are you serious? While I have no idea where or what Mt.
>Rainier migth be, 10d on water only should be pretty tough.
Only as serious as one can be on the net. I live in
Pennsylvania, so Mt Rushmore was out of the question
anyway. My thought was to scale the south peak of Seneca
5-6 times while wearing crampons and carrying an ice axe,
and wearing a plastic bag over my head to simulate the
altitude. Maybe smear a little bacon grease in it to give
it that 'fresh, piping hot breakfast' smell and increase
the agony.
As for survival training, the standard answer when one is
asked about is "I survived it."
} // end thread here
On a completely unrelated note, the only time I have ever
worn crampons was while working as a snowmaker at
Killington, VT, during a ski bum stage of my life. How
about that fresh powder?
Dingus Milktoast
Markus writes:
>Mike Yukish >
> > OK, I've taken the challenge. Today is the third day of my
> > fasting, imbibing nothing but water.
Should be interesting. I wish you luck. But don't kill yourself trying to make
a point. That would be a stupid thing to write on your headstone.
>
> Mike, are you serious? While I have no idea where or what Mt.
> Rainier migth be, 10d on water only should be pretty tough.
The simple fact that you don't simply reinforces my point that you don't know
what you're talking about when it comes to mountaineering and fasting.
> According to my references, one will not be in too good shape -
> even a very low daily intake of carbohydrates would help a lot,
> although high-intensity work would remain very difficult. I
> suppose you know what you are doing thanks to your survival
> training.
Yeah, he must be an expert. One is forced to wonder if he's ever been about
5000 feet on a mountain.
>
> At any rate, I think it's a waste to take such a challange from
> some anonymous twit on the net!
Ditto for taking advice from some other anonymous twit, ala fasting before
climbing a mountain. As to the challenge, I expect no one to "accept" such a
ridiculous dare. It would be stupid and foolhardy, and very likely fatal. But
it is my way of showing that people who would seriously recommend not eating as
a valid "technique" for getting up mountains simply don't know what they're
talking about.
> Otoh, I think that the idea of
> backcountry trips (not fasting at home though) on minimal
> carried food is an appealing one. Learning about Nature, primitive
> skills and oneself - not 'silly' or 'dumb' like some have said
> here.
I never said that. I DID say it was a stupid idea for climbing mountains, not
silly or dumb.
DMT
Dingus Milktoast
Mike Yukish writes:
> Only as serious as one can be on the net. I live in
> Pennsylvania, so Mt Rushmore was out of the question
> anyway. My thought was to scale the south peak of Seneca
> 5-6 times while wearing crampons and carrying an ice axe,
> and wearing a plastic bag over my head to simulate the
> altitude. Maybe smear a little bacon grease in it to give
> it that 'fresh, piping hot breakfast' smell and increase
> the agony.
That should do it!
> On a completely unrelated note, the only time I have ever
> worn crampons was while working as a snowmaker at
> Killington, VT, during a ski bum stage of my life.
Exactly my point.
DMT
Dave Derrick
Ken Meinken wrote:
>
> I recently read that banana chips are coated with sugar.
MY GOD, NO!!! You can't mean it! Next, you'll be telling me that my pistachios aren't
naturally salty!
Mr. Scabby
Eugene N. Miya
In article <526khe$b...@fido.asd.sgi.com> tu...@spicey.asd.sgi.com
(Tuan Tran) writes:
>My apologies if this question does not fit into the "climbing" category
>perfectly.
It fits.
>On recent one-day summit attempts of Whitney and White Mtn, we often
>found ourselves out of energy (and also out of food :( at the end of the day.
>We figured that we did not give our bodies enough energy since all we brought
>was lots of granola bars and some power bars which hardened as it got colder.
>What do you usually bring with you on long hikes ? and in the cold climate ?
You are confusing two things here:
1) These aren't long hikes. They might be long day hikes, but long
hikes means many weeks, months, or even over the years.
2) Cold: this is short duration cold.
1st, for these trips: you want simple sugars: glucose and dextrose.
More complex sugars take longer to break down. Lots of fluids (beware
freezing points) and more simple sugars. You also need to be in
condition. Serious cold weather needs a balance with fats and proteins.
Seal and penguin blubber was popular for some real reasons. slurp.
Eat things (test) that you think that you might like at elevation
(another problem).
Cold is more than just eating.
One of the coolest books you can read is Hornbein's 1963 Everest
expedition, and I also recommend accounts of the 1958 Gasherbrum and
1960 Masherbrum expeditions as early American expedition experience.
Hornbein and his partner watched out for their body weights.
Their first trip they lost something like 35 lbs. On the Everest trip
they lost 4 lbs. They attempted to eat every thing in sight and keep it down.
Eat food.
Emil Briggs
I agree with most of what you said in that last post Dingus,
but not knowing anything about Mt. Rainier doesn't mean
Marcus doesn't know anything about mountaineering. His address
is in Finland and a lot of good European climbers don't know
much about areas in the U.S. I met some Polish climbers
in the Alps this summer who had never heard of Mt. Rainier
either but they sure could climb.
On the subject of fasting well history is full of people
who did amazing feats of physical endurance with no food.
But it was generally because they had no choice and lots
of people have died doing it also. Why anyone would want
to do it voluntarily is hard for me to understand.
Emil Briggs
Email: bri...@quinn.physics.ncsu.edu
Rick Stockton
bjor...@kantele.hut.fi (Markus F Bj|rksten) wrote:
>>"Dingus Milktoast" <crha...@pacbell.net> >
>> > I'll state my challenge again, skinny man. Don't eat for
>> > 10 days... go climb Rainier. If you live, be sure to let
>> > us know. Otherwise, it's all just talk.
>Mike Yukish >
>> OK, I've taken the challenge. Today is the third day of my
>> fasting, imbibing nothing but water.
>Mike, are you serious? While I have no idea where or what Mt.
>Rainier might be...
...
Markus, DMT has challenged Mike to one of most strenuous
hills the the lower 48... maybe the very hardest one.
To begin with, the peak is only 82 feet lower than Whitney.
But as an endurance climb, the easiest routes up Rainier
are *much* tougher than the usual (easy) approaches to
Whitney for 2 reasons:
(1) It is less than 50 miles from the ocean, and rises from
surrounding country at only about 3500 ft. This means that
the alititude gain in the hike/climb is about **11,000 feet!!**
There's nothing else like it down here. I'm not positive
without checking, but I think that even Denali does not
have this much altitude gain relative to its terrain.
(2) It is SE of Seattle WA, much further North
than Whitney. Many difficult glaciers and ice fields.
(This BTW is one of 2 things which makes Denali
*FAR NASTIER* than anything in the lower 48, and
the best place for Himalaya prep training.)
...
Meanwhile, I see Mike talking about how the Black Hills
are big compared to things in his area (Mt Harney is only
about 7000ft, and the gain from surrounding terrain is
barely 1000 feet). The Black Hills has plenty of really
neat 5.10 thru 5.14 climbs, they are one of my favorite
places for climbing (No I can't do 5.14 or even 5.11
either). >> But I go ROTFL at Mike's implication of the
Rainier challenge being *anything* like the Black Hills.
...
Dingus, I think you're gonna win your challenge.
Let's go have some coffee ;-)
Rick Stockton <rick...@mail.idt.net>
Ron Lister
On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:44:12 -0500, Dave Derrick <hel...@bnr.ca>
wrote:
Uh-oh. I think you better sit down for this one...they are not
naturally red, either! :))
Dingus Milktoast
Eugene writes:
> You are confusing two things here:
> 1) These aren't long hikes. They might be long day hikes, but long
> hikes means many weeks, months, or even over the years.
I don't agree. Those are treks. Hike, to me, implies a light weight outing
where overnight gear is left behind.
DMT
Brutus of Wyde
> pna...@aol.com (Pnay123) writes:
[chomp]
> When you are in your aerobic state
> (general range 110-155) bhp.
> your body burns fatty acids
> these are either fats or carbos,
> which become fat if not utilized.
[munch]
So which is it:
Does FFA stand for First Free Ascent,
or Free Fatty Acids?
Do I need to fast to go fast or, if I do, or
don't, will I breathe my last?
> When
> you are at a heart
> rate above your aerobic, you are therefore
> anaerobic and utilizing the
> glycogyn of your muscles and liver.
Don't talk science to us. This is Rec.Climbing!
Aerobic glycolysis and its contribution of ATPs
to the Krebs Cycle means nothing to us! We prefer
endless debates of vague generalities, and testamonials
which have nothing to do with the subject under discussion!
[slurp]
> Therefore fasting before a big effort is nothing
> short of self-defeating, since you
> are forcing your body to use what stored fuels it
> already has on hand and diminishing the
> staying power one has for a long haul.
[gulp]
Is "is nothing short of" a concealed, slippery double
negative? If so, even if not used incorrectly, this
negates your whole point. I think.
[Thinking about self-defeating fasting]
Hmmmm. Do you suppose that's why many marathon runners
have a good meal the night before, and regularly partake
of simple carbs during the run? And if so, why would
that have any bearing on maximum efforts over an extended
period of time in a situation with considerably greater
potential hazard? Like, say, climbing Liberty Ridge
in a storm?
Let's get back to broad statements and vague generalities,
they're easier to digest:
Climbers should never eat anything, ever, throughout
their lives. Fast, Faster, and Fastest!
Insincerely,
Al Dente
[Is that Al, as in Allen, or A1, as in easy aid?]
Afraid to eat, but my, that Guiness looks good.......
[disarming, toothy smile] Come to think of it, my climbing
partner is starting to look mighty tasty.....
Markus F Bj|rksten
crha...@pacbell.net "Dingus Milktoast" >
> The simple fact that you don't (know what is Mt.Rainier) simply
> when it comes to mountaineering and fasting.
Obviously the author above missed my point entirely. I did
_not_ comment on mountaineering, but I did comment on the
planned 10d complete fasting _prior_ to the trip, with the concern
that it might leave the experimenter in relatively bad shape
for the trip. The concern itself is admittably prompted by my
vague impression of the mountaineering part.
I believe that I have taken sufficient care in the past articles in
specifying the conditons of the fasting discussed closely following
the references used.
What comes to the ad homine attacks, no, I'm hardly a
"mountaineer", whatever that could be. Unless possibly if
the fjelds of Finnish Lappland count, which seems doubtful,
as they all are well below 1.4km and mostly gently rolling. I
however fail to see, why the lack of "mountaineering" experience
would imply inability of discussing starvation physiology.
Imo challenging others from behind the cover of a pseudonyme to do
a trip which oneself believes likely to be fatal is distasteful.
I hereby challange "Dingus Milktoast" to come up with a real name.
Markus Bjorksten
Dingus Milktoast
Markus writes:
> I
> however fail to see, why the lack of "mountaineering" experience
> would imply inability of discussing starvation physiology.
>
It's the lack of experience at altitude that I refer to. I personally believe
it makes a BIG difference, with respect to the topic at hand. Further, I have
always tied my comments back to the original question, which was in reference
to long day hikes at altitude. I cannot comment on yours and others experience
at fasting and personal performance closer to sea level, in that I have little
experience in that arena. I yield to your more informed opinions. However, I do
have direct experience with performance at altitude and the intake of food vs.
the declining performance the higher one goes. My experience has taught me that
reducing the intake of calories during these endeavors leads to a marked
decline in performance. I don't base these deductions on the reports of others.
I make them based upon my and my partners' personal experience. That is the
difference. There are also reams of anecdotal stories as well as scientific
studies that indicate there are marked differences in the "physiology" at high
altitude vs. sea level.
> Imo challenging others from behind the cover of a pseudonyme to do
> a trip which oneself believes likely to be fatal is distasteful.
You have a good point here. I would not have issued the challenge if I even
remotely thought someone would take it seriously enough to try it. And I won't
do it again.
> I hereby challange "Dingus Milktoast" to come up with a real name.
No, I won't do it. By Dingus is how the virtual world shall know me.
>
>
> Markus Bjorksten
And how, dear Markus, do we know this is really your name? You may actually be
a computer program named HAL!
DMT
chris
eug...@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) wrote:
> ... Serious cold weather needs a balance with fats and proteins.
>Seal and penguin blubber was popular for some real reasons. slurp.
Lots of arctic blubber has fatty acids with odd numbers of carbon
== `carbohydrate` at the end.
-z
robert lindsay
Pete Hurd <pe...@zool.su.se> wrote:
>BTW - whatever happend to the Canadian _Coldbuster_ Bar?
pete :
the last i heard was that it is still being sold, although only
in select outlets now. MEC ( mountain equipment co-op ) is
a good bet. sorry, i don't have the number on me but i'm sure
someone here can post it for you.
opinions are my own.............................................
david mann
Markus F Bj|rksten (bjor...@kantele.hut.fi) wrote:
: At any rate, I think it's a waste to take such a challange from
: some anonymous twit on the net! Otoh, I think that the idea of
: carried food is an appealing one. Learning about Nature, primitive
: skills and oneself - not 'silly' or 'dumb' like some have said
: here.
Oops.... that would be me... I'm the one who labeled the
thread as being silly...[Markus, sorry for not returning
your e-mail. Work has been and is nuts. This is all I can
afford to say at the moment...]
Let me display my ignorance about exercise pysiology (and spelling).
I classify excerise into 4 categories:
1) Low - pulse barely moving; walking on level ground.
2) Moderate - pule less than 70% of max; LSD - long slow distance;
backpacking over moderate terrain; marathon training; long distance
cycling.
3) High - pulse 70 - 80% of max; aerobic exercise; body running off of
glucose reserves supplemented by fats (depending on conditioning);
5 - 10k road races; cycling time trialing; backpacking up steep
terrain; can normally be sustained for 45 -60 minutes with out
glycogen resupply.
4) Very high - 80+% of max pulse rate; an-aerobic exercise; can be
sustained for short periods of time; sprints
Now, "hiking" and "backpacking" and "climbing" are ill
defined words, especially given the non-local qualities
of this group. For me (and I think for Dingus) backpacking
and climbing/mountaineering are moderate excercise interspersed
with periods of high output. In fact, this for me is the struggle
on long climbs; to monitor my body so as to stay below the 70%
of max pulse rate threshold.
I say this thread has taken a silly turn for a couple of reasons.
First, climbing Mt. Whitney is not low activity for mere mortals.
Given the typical lack of acclimation of day hikers, I will bet
bucks that the guy who first started this thread spent a good
deal of his day at high output. Such is the drag of altitude.
So, as interesting as low output performance on reduced calories
is... I don't see it as being germain to the original question.
Sustained output at the moderate and high levels is discussed
in most books on marathon training and better yet on cycling
or triathalons. The term often used is bonking or hitting the
wall.
Secondly, (and this is not slur on you Mike) but Mike's claim
that fasting is a fine way to loose weight is simply nonsense.
Yes, you can loose weight this way but it will be gained
back quickly. Again, this is pretty standard stuff.
Finally, care must be always be used in comaring military
conclusions with real life in the mountains. The military
has very different goals and objectives. This is not bad
and is sometimes very helpful (the best hiking partners
I've ever, ever had were both Naval officers; one went
thru Spuds) but not always. For instance, the military
emphasises training over education and approaches survival
from a very different mindset. I've talke to plenty of
guys who've been thru the escape and evasion training
that Mike refered to in ME. The purpose of that excercise
is not how to lighten your pack by taking less food.
And I've talked with enough military personell who've
been thru survival training to know that they don't
know how to adjust what they've learned to apply to
backpacking. Again, the distinction between training
and education.
Dave Mann | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do
| noble acts without the proper equipment."
dam...@lynx.neu.edu | Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
Brutus of Wyde
> bhol...@ix.netcom.com (Ben Holstrom) writes:
> Mike Yukish <may...@psu.edu> wrote:
> >OK, I've taken the challenge. Today is the third day of my
> >fasting, imbibing nothing but water. No negative effects
> >yet [cough, cough, hack...] seem to be coming on with a
> >cold, though. I'm a little weary, I think I'll rest now.
> >
> >Anybody else see those flying monkeys?
Wait a minute, class, We're talking the Liberty Ridge route,
in under 20 hours, yes? Just want to make sure everyone got
the Lab assignment copied down correctly.
Please be sure to complete the assigned reading prior to the ascent.
Good Luck!
Miss Information
Markus F Bj|rksten
> For me (and I think for Dingus) backpacking and climbing/
> mountaineering are moderate excercise interspersed with
> periods of high output.
Sure, but would someone with a much higher level of fitness
(just hypothetical of course :) ever be panting doing one of
your trips at your pace? If not, when, maybe, he might be
able to go using just his fat reserves when you wouldn't?
My winter trips (taiga and some fjelds) also clearly fall
into the category of moderate excercise with frequent shorter
periods of intensive work. Opening track, steep short climbs,
tight bush, ahkio stuck...
Yet, the 9 day winter survival marsch described in one of the
references was in 'my' terrain and with 'my' group size, and in
the almost worst possible weather. I'd guess that the trip would
have been reasonable for me on normal food, although the weather
would have been record setting tough for me.
But they only got a mere 1MJ/d or so of food which they spent hours
gathering! Determining from my (insufficient!) experience only,
I'd think of it as suicidal, which it of course might very well
be - to me.
Markus Bjorksten
Markus F Bj|rksten
I'll add my hopefully final point to this starvation discussion. I
think that the main point to learn from the survival marches and such
is that in most backpacking conditions starvation is far from an immediate
risk, contrary to some common belief. Hypothermia, injuries, illness,
drowning and such are much more relevant for survival. Starvation will
however increase the risk of all of these, much less so if one can even
get a little food each day.
Markus Bjorksten
Eugene Miya
In article <N.100196.075739.57@HARRISHOME>,
Treks? Maybe.
>Hike, to me, implies a light weight outing
>where overnight gear is left behind.
I disagree.
I saw nothing in the definition of a hike to say they are only day long
things. You can preface the word with either "day" or "overnight" or
other similar adjectives.