FREE felt tip markers for ropes!
hi
IF YOU REGULARLY POST TO REC.CLIMBING: you are eligible to receive a
free felt tip pen for marking the middle of your rope. In addition,
if you are one of the first 50 people to request a pen, you will be
entered into a raffle for a full set of new cams made by OneCam. Send
all requests to: Ignoramus...@yahoo.com
ALL OTHERS: please do not mark the middle of your rope with a felt
tip pen. The UIAA has examined two sets of studies, one of which was
done in conjunction with two rope manufacturers, and they have
confirmed that marking ropes with a felt marker, even ones
specifically designed for climbing, will weaken the marked part of the
rope by up to 50%. The study also seemed to indicate that the ropes
will get weaker at the mark over time.
THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: We now return you to your
regularly scheduled programming of constant bickering, degradation,
and cruelty.
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> ALL OTHERS: please do not mark the middle of your rope with a felt
> tip pen. The UIAA has examined two sets of studies, one of which was
> done in conjunction with two rope manufacturers, and they have
> confirmed that marking ropes with a felt marker, even ones
> specifically designed for climbing, will weaken the marked part of the
> rope by up to 50%. The study also seemed to indicate that the ropes
> will get weaker at the mark over time.
What confuses me about this information is that I have never seen it
in a reliable publication and Blue Water continues to sell rope
marking pens. BW says the pens they sell are safe, and is not aware
of the alleged UIAA study.
Ken
hi
it in a reliable publication
I would argue that the yearly "Notes From The Plenary Session of The
UIAA Safety Commission" is THE most important climbing publication.
> and Blue Water continues to sell rope
> marking pens.
...and Ford continues to sell SUV's. Sanford, the maker of the
Sharpie pen, was even compelled to make this statement:
"Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers
for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may
arise from its use."
And when testing Beal's pen called the "Rope Marker", the second study
found a reduction in rope strength by up to 50%. In conclusion, the
UIAA determined that NO felt tip marker is safe on ropes.
<Ken....@cs.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:wkpu13g...@cline116.dsl.frii.com...
uscjeffer
will be entitled to a free rope wash that uses cat piss and battery
acid. But if you respond on a monday or wednesday, you will also be
entered to win the cat. Its not a kitten since they do not produce
enough piss.
According to the UIAA cat piss and battery acid will weaken the rope
42.53432 percent.
"hi" <noneofyou...@none.com> wrote in message news:<j4St8.43956$To6.11...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>...
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> > What confuses me about this information is that I have never seen >
> it in a reliable publication
>
> I would argue that the yearly "Notes From The Plenary Session of The
> UIAA Safety Commission" is THE most important climbing publication.
I keep seeing your warnings, and a web search turned up a site
alleging to be the notes you refer to, but the address was pretty
random. I have yet to see the information in published form from a
reliable source.
On the other hand, I have talked to Blue Water (who sells rope marking
pens). They are not aware of the alleged UIAA document. Doesn't that
seem strange to you? I have to wonder if your information is
reliable.
Ken
Jason Lucero
>
> "hi" <noneofyou...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:<j4St8.43956$To6.11...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>...
> > Hi,
> >
> > IF YOU REGULARLY POST TO REC.CLIMBING: you are eligible to receive a
> > free felt tip pen for marking the middle of your rope. In addition,
> > if you are one of the first 50 people to request a pen, you will be
> > entered into a raffle for a full set of new cams made by OneCam. Send
> > all requests to: Ignoramus...@yahoo.com
> >
> > ALL OTHERS: please do not mark the middle of your rope with a felt
> > tip pen. The UIAA has examined two sets of studies, one of which was
> > done in conjunction with two rope manufacturers, and they have
> > confirmed that marking ropes with a felt marker, even ones
> > specifically designed for climbing, will weaken the marked part of the
> > rope by up to 50%. The study also seemed to indicate that the ropes
> > will get weaker at the mark over time.
> >
> > THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: We now return you to your
> > regularly scheduled programming of constant bickering, degradation,
> > and cruelty.
<victim> I don't think it is fair to offer free pens to regular posters
and not to non-regular posters. Further offering pens to mark a rope is
supposedly harmful to the marking on the rope when loaded over an edge
by 50%. You are a meanie. Maybe you could offer free pens to everone,
pens that do not actully mark the rope, or edge loading resistant pens.
</end victim>
OR...
The UIAA has ammended previous result stating that climbers should only
mark half the circumference of the rope and keep that side away from
the rock.
That was funny, but would have been better if it had been more timely.
AND...
In article <79bb0540.02041...@posting.google.com>, uscjeffer
<uscj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Follow up...If you respond back to the email whoc...@troll.com...You
> will be entitled to a free rope wash that uses cat piss and battery
> acid. But if you respond on a monday or wednesday, you will also be
> entered to win the cat. Its not a kitten since they do not produce
> enough piss.
>
> According to the UIAA cat piss and battery acid will weaken the rope
> 42.53432 percent.
you sonofabitch, you had me rolling!
Jason, cat piss pens now in testing, should be available soon, Lucero
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily the voice's in my head.
Michael A. Riches
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu wrote on 4/13/02 4:59 PM:
> I have to wonder if your information is
> reliable.
>
> Ken
Seriously...Ken, do you even have to wonder...??? I mean, really now,
pooodle boy has got to be the most reliable source on the internet...how
could you even "consider" questioning his credibility...????
LOL...
Ratzzz...
Mark Heyman
<Ken....@cs.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:wkk7rbp...@cline116.dsl.frii.com...
Sorry Ken, I was wanted to warn you but you but you've already swallowed the
hook!
I think High just picked up this argument from David.
Mark
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> Sorry Ken, I was wanted to warn you but you but you've already swallowed the
> hook!
Not quite. Refusing to stay quiet while misinformation is spread for
a third time is hardly the same as being fooled by flame bait. Did
you notice that I chose a very mild response to head off escallations
(even though hi was intentionally offensive from the start).
> I think High just picked up this argument from David.
On the other hand, you may have a point here.
Ken
Dawn Alguard
>
> What confuses me about this information is that I have never seen it
> in a reliable publication and Blue Water continues to sell rope
> marking pens. BW says the pens they sell are safe, and is not aware
> of the alleged UIAA study.
Nathan was doing some research on this subject at one point.
Perhaps he'll speak up. IIRC, and I've never been able to find
this study published on the net either but the story has been
around for years, the deal was that the marked section of rope
was more likely to get cut over an edge. Todd and I were trying
to figure out one day how you'd load the middle of your rope over
an edge without taking a great than FF1 fall with more than half
the rope out and finally decided you could do it by having the
middle mark run tightly under a roof. So extend your runners
appropriately and put gear in at least every half rope length and
you ought to be OK.
Dawn
P.S. I seem to recall that the original rumor was that it was a
BMC study. Try them.
Brad Cooke
hi wrote:
> I would argue that the yearly "Notes From The Plenary Session of The
> UIAA Safety Commission" is THE most important climbing publication.
Do you have the specific cite?
> ...and Ford continues to sell SUV's. Sanford, the maker of the
> Sharpie pen, was even compelled to make this statement:
>
> "Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers
> for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may
> arise from its use."
We live in a litigious world... seriously, though, from a chemist's
standpoint nylon _should_ not be degraded by anything in a sharpie. If
anyone has any specific information to the contrary...
hi
> a third time is hardly the same as being fooled by flame bait.
The fact that felt tip markers weaken ropes by up to 50% can easily be
confirmed directly with the UIAA Safety Commission.
<Ken....@cs.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:wkads5w...@cline116.dsl.frii.com...
- no spam@hotmail.com Irishman
> > Refusing to stay quiet while misinformation is spread for
> > a third time is hardly the same as being fooled by flame bait.
>
> The fact that felt tip markers weaken ropes by up to 50% can easily be
> confirmed directly with the UIAA Safety Commission.
We're still waiting patiently for your source.
Michael A. Riches
wrote on 4/15/02 10:03 AM:
Poodle boy does not have any "specific" information, period. He has been
throwing this troll out, since before 9/11 (when he was so rudely
interrupted by the terrorist thing). There is no study that will confirm
this and if there is, it is only "One" study out of about ten that disproves
it, as a false conclusion...
And "why" this has become his personal crusade, is anybody's guess. Of all
the real and serious threats that there are, in the climbing world, you'd
think that he could at least jump on something that could be proven both
chemically and physically...
And, you'll never get him to post any factual info on any of his trolls (he
has none...), the closest thing he ever say is something to this effect:
> The fact that felt tip markers weaken ropes by up to 50% can easily be
> confirmed directly with the UIAA Safety Commission.
...as his post to Ken confirms...
Ratzzz...(Consider the source...)
Jason Lucero
<rock...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I'd hate to blow my own horn here, but if you're unfamiliar with hi's
postings, do a google search or check out ten of hi's real life posts
in top ten format compiled by yours truly:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=hi+group:rec.climbing+author:Jason&hl=
en&safe=off&selm=021020011822244575%25J%40SamuraiSurfer.com&rnum=4
further, I think I just received spam from him addressed to
"climbi...@samuraisurfer.com" OK, it's sorta funny.
Jason, am I an official bully now?, Lucero
Lynne
which mention that the following chemicals damage nylon and may be present
in some types of marking pens: phenols, cresols, xylenol. Sharpie pens do
carry the warning "not for letter writing or cloth." (Not for letter
writing??) They do not however have the above solvents. In fact, the
ingredients are (drum roll please):
DYES
SOLVENTS:
1) PROPYL ALCOHOL; (N-PROPANOL)
2) BUTYL ALCOHOL; (N-BUTANOL) (SARA 313) (CERCLA)
3) 2-PENTANONE, 4-HYDROXY-4-METHYL-; (4-HYDROXY-4-METHYL-2-
PENTANONE); (DIACETONE ALCOHOL).
Looks okay to me. Any chemists out there?
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> > Refusing to stay quiet while misinformation is spread for
> > a third time is hardly the same as being fooled by flame bait.
>
> The fact that felt tip markers weaken ropes by up to 50% can easily be
> confirmed directly with the UIAA Safety Commission.
Is that anything like the pills that increase breast (or was it penis)
size by up to 50%?
Curiously,
Ken
hi
Pit Schubert
President of the UIAA Safety Commission
Thanks for being so patient.
"Irishman" <lucky_irishman - no sp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9fg9k$2sh42$1...@ID-80401.news.dfncis.de...
Jason Lucero
Jason
Colin WALKER
conclusively proved that unsubstantiated data makes one look like a
fool.
MSR
cwa...@edisonmission.com wrote on 4/15/02 9:35 PM:
> Hi, you obviously haven't read the recent scientific study that
> conclusively proved that unsubstantiated data makes one look like a
> fool.
Actually I believe the study concluded that 74.8% of all unsubstantiated
data makes 88.54% of the contributing populace look like a fool. Please be
more specific next time.
N42461
>Nathan was doing some research on this subject at one point.
>Perhaps he'll speak up.
And I posted it, several middlemarks ago. Sterling was doing a new test. I mark
my rope with a Sharpie. I try only to feed the trolls I like.
And I believe, Pit Shubert is retired, and the new guy is Dieter Stopper.
And Hi, mark your rope any way you want. If you just take it out and give it a
stoke once in a while and never really use it, who cares what the middle is
marked with?
nathan sweet
Jason Lucero
<n42...@aol.com> wrote:
I don't think I can ever remember hi just posting about climbing. I'm
convinced it does not even climb.
Pit came out of retirement to tell hi that rope marking is dangerous?
brooke
> Todd and I were trying
> to figure out one day how you'd load the middle of your rope over
> an edge without taking a great than FF1 fall with more than half
> the rope out and finally decided you could do it by having the
> middle mark run tightly under a roof. So extend your runners
> appropriately and put gear in at least every half rope length and
> you ought to be OK.
How about you decide to combine a couple of pitches of one of those
Gunks routes. Early in the route you pull a big roof -- say more than
a body length from back to lip. You used your trusty 48" runner to
extend the gear you placed under the roof. You managed to pull the
roof and are standing on the slightly less than vertical face above
the lip. Your rope now does a 110 degree (arbitray but reasonable
number) bend at the lip. You continue climbing and the route traverses
a bit to the right. Oops, one final roof near the top -- and POP,
you're off for a ten footer (fall factor 0.0769: 10 foot fall with 130
feet of rope out). Oh no! Your felt tip pen middle mark is smack dab
on the sharp lip of the roof. Plus, that little traverse right after
the roof means that your rope saws against the sharp lip. Twang! Your
rope breaks.
Brooke "unlikely yet plausable" Hoyer
Julie
> Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> wrote
Actually, plausible: I recall an accident a few years ago at the Gunks,
where a guy decked (only a broken ankle, amazingly, IIRC) from the
second pitch of High E, in pretty much what Brooke just described.
The pitch in question pulls a roof early on, and the obvious pro. goes
way back under the roof. From what I remember, the guy pulled the roof,
then fell from the face above; his rope cut on the lip of the roof.
I don't think anyone looked at his middle mark, though.
JSH
Colin WALKER
validated. Unless you can suggest a reputable site that can verify
what you have posted, I would suggest that your data should be treated
as rumour.
Writing UIAA after any data does not validate it. The ball back in
your court and inside the line I believe.
Regards Colin
Colin WALKER
validated. Unless you can suggest a reputable site that can verify
as rumour.
Writing UIAA after any data does not validate it. The ball back in
your court and inside the line I believe.
Regards Colin
<michae...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<B8E0F92F.CA32%michae...@cox.net>...
Colin WALKER
information that I have supports your posting, I was aiming for MSR's
court. I'll have to be more careful in future where I hit my balls.
Regards Colin
Brad Cooke <bwc...@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message news:<3CBAF9B9...@ucalgary.ca>...
MSR
data (original post below). Nor have I posted any data other than a rather
silly, sarcastic, fake set of numbers simply trying to further your point.
But, seeing as you have sent one of your balls into my court I will pick it
up (with gloves of course) and keep it in my freezer for the next time I
need more than the two god gave me.
Sorry, unsolicited balls cannot be returned and remain the property of the
receiver.
in article cee2cd50.02041...@posting.google.com, Colin WALKER at
cwa...@edisonmission.com wrote on 4/17/02 1:22 AM:
Christopher Brian Colohan
> I'll have to be more careful in future where I hit my balls.
Yeouch! Personally, I just try to avoid hitting them at all...
Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: ch...@colohan.ca PGP: finger col...@cs.cmu.edu
Web: www.cs.cmu.edu/~colohan Phone: (412)268-4751
Brad Cooke
I think you should check your attributions more carefully - I did not
post any figure, nor did I claim to write the UIAA. Everything I posted
can be easily verified with any given polymer chemistry textbook.
Brad Cooke
Colin WALKER wrote:
>
> Apologies Brad, my ball ended up in the wrong court. The best
> information that I have supports your posting, I was aiming for MSR's
> court. I'll have to be more careful in future where I hit my balls.
> Regards Colin
No worries... just ignore my response.
hi
> this and if there is, it is only "One" study out of about ten that
>disproves
> it, as a false conclusion...
That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first
reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen
(made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for
use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance).
In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at
the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked
samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8
falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of
The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.
Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German
Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and
superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was
not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application.
Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held.
Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry,
possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope
sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope,
but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the
only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the
non-dry and superdry sample.
Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the
manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy
markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The
reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope.
Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity
reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.
Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not
guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary.
There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in
the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not
endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing
(sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use."
The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen.
Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is
available how long they stay on.
The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal
circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a
fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets
------------------------
Published Notes from the Plenary Session of the UIAA Safety Commission
1998:
4. Do not use magic markers of any kind to mark the rope. An American
product specifically sold for marking the middle of ropes reduces the
strength of the rope (only at the point of marking, when loaded over
the test edge) by as much as 50%.
---------------------------
Published Notes from the Plenary Session of the UIAA Safety Commission
2001:
8. New work has again confirmed that ropes should not be marked
(middle) with any kind of felt pens. The ropes will be damaged.
----------------------------
UIAA Safety Commission
Notification concerning Rope Marking issued: April 2002
Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope
manufacturers have shown that rope marking with liquids such as those
provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those
markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed
a decrease up to approximately 50% of the rope strength, more
correctly: of the energy absorption capacity of the rope (expressed by
the number of falls in the standard test method in accordance with the
European Standard EN 892).
Therefore the UIAA Safety Commission warns against marking a rope with
any substance that has not been specifically approved by the rope
manufacturer of that rope. (**Added note: Beal sells a rope marker
that presumably they recommend for their ropes but it was found to
reduce strength up to 50% which is the worst result for any marker
tested.)
It is not possible for the UIAA Safety Commission to test all markers
that are commercially available and can be used for marking ropes.
Furthermore it would be impossible for the UIAA Safety Commission to
keep such information up-to-date. In addition, the effect of any rope
marker seems to vary with the make of rope. Hence, all the UIAA Safety
Commission can do at the moment is to warn mountaineers and climbers.
The UIAA Safety Commission will carry out further research into this
problem to provide practical advice to climbers.
Pit Schubert, President
Neville McMillan, Vice President
Carlo Zanantoni, Technical Director
-------
lol.
"Michael A. Riches" <rock...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8E0D426.15C6DD%rock...@earthlink.net...
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first
> reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen
> (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for
> use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance).
> In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at
> the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test.
What are you talking about? There is no "orifice plate" in a UIAA
drop test.
> Five unmarked
> samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8
> falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of
> The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.
So you are saying that the samples would still have passed a UIAA drop
test! Scary stuff, kids! Not.
Ken
John
Looking good Hi.
Karl Baba
If it's true that markers weaken the rope then I apologize for being
pissed off, if it's just a lying troll then...
It's just not OK to put out serious disinformation about an important
safety related subject and then give false references with names and
organizations to support it. Thinking up some cute potty/sex/puke
insult to chastise someone for putting dangerous lies on the net could
trivialize the seriousness of the offense.
Still....
Hi, if you're a shooting straight then please go the extra mile and
provide links.
Hi, if you're just trolling, then set the record straight so some poor
guy doesn't cut up his rope for safety's sake.
Hi, if you can't do either of the above, then take this load of crap
that you've laid here and cram it back up your ass until you puke
respectfully
Karl
In article <uc49nst...@corp.supernews.com>, John
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
news:220420022230173763%gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com...
>
<SNIP tentative slamming of hi>
Did I read this right? Did Karlee Baba just _flame_ someone???!!!
- Sumo, gotta be a first ;-)
Karl Baba
If somebody stamps it out, that's their choice
;-)
Peace (to hi too)
Karl
In article <aa47q3$7n7p1$1...@ID-79183.news.dfncis.de>, Jeremy the Sumo
Dan Lehman
warnings; the details I've not seen; conflicting information comes from
other sources (ITRSymposium presentation 2001, e.g.).
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu wrote in message
> "hi" <noneofyou...@none.com> writes:
>
> > ALL OTHERS: please do not mark the middle of your rope with a felt
> > tip pen. The UIAA has examined two sets of studies, ... even ones
> > specifically designed for climbing, will weaken the marked part of the
> > rope by up to 50%. The study also seemed to indicate that the ropes
> > will get weaker at the mark over time.
Let me confirm this information to the extent that indeed such warnings
have been, and continue to be, issued by UIAA--Helmut Microys, the N.Amer.
UIAA SAFCOM rep. just forwarded me a msg. from Pit Schubert, UIAA SAFCOM
head (still, appparently) this past week. No, I can't give links at this
time; the above report I think came to me via Helmut, also. And, yes,
it's odd not to have such information 1) better presented (see below) and
2) readily linkable. FYI, the UIAA WWWeb site is: www.uiaa.ch . And I
think (recalling vaguely) that one might find some of this information on
the Canadian Alpine Club's (or is it "Assoc."?) site--link is under Members
at the UIAA site (a Lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng list of member country organizations!).
Meanwhile, I just read in a CMC Rescue catalogue that some presentation
at ITRS 2001 (Int.Tech.RescueSymposium) asserted that "most" markers don't
damage ropes (and tape) (presumably this means "nylon", although there are
now some polyester sheathed and pure polyester static ropes used by SAR).
I mentioned this to Helmut M., but his response was a curt "Ignorance is
bliss!"--which is highly uncurious & worrisome: hey, SAR folks have usually
a quite cautious, safety-minded outlook, and have liability concerns not
held by individual climbers! (Of course, it could be some difference in
testing: the ITRS based on straigh-pull break tests, UIAA on reduced fall
count in drop tests, etc.--I don't know, and am trying to get the ITRS info.)
About the "weaker over time", I think that that simply alludes to the fact
that those ropes treated with the markers were tested after 5 days and 30,
and generally the 30-day ropes fared worse (which seems reasonable); but
how much further any such deteriorization goes isn't addressed. Also,
the study showed that superdry ropes were less affected than non-dry,
BUT with some anomalies (see below); presumably, penetration by the
marker was less.
Also, the "50% weaker" means this: if a sample of a rope sustained 10
UIAA drops new & unmarked, marked samples would sustain only 5. --i.e.,
UIAA (and largely, it seems, Mammut did testing) didn't do other than
drop tests, and those were arranged to put the marked part of the rope
at the 'biner-like bend. (Which, thanks, some folks have remarked would
be hard to replicate in practice! Though maybe there are implications
for accelerated wear/deteriorization of the spot when it passes through
a belay device?! --considerably less force, there, but ... ?)
Notably, the UIAA information that I've seen is UNdetailed--no table of
ropes & test data, of which markers where used, etc.. I.p., on puzzling
finding was that for one brand of rope (unspecified), the NON-DRY rope
was slightly stronger after marking (i.e., likely unaffected, and just
happened to sustain 1 extra fall along the set of 5 tests), although
the superdry of that brand lost 35% fall count.
> What confuses me about this information is that I have never seen it
> in a reliable publication and Blue Water continues to sell rope
> marking pens. BW says the pens they sell are safe, and is not aware
> of the alleged UIAA study.
Indeed, THIS is worrisome: how can BW be unaware of what UIAA is doing?
(And NB: this warning & testing by UIAA has been going on since 1998!!)
Not that they have to agree with the results (and if no more information
is forthcoming than what I've seen, they should have many questions and
reasonable skepticism!). Another thing that troubled me about the UIAA
report was that, as "Hi" said, one special-for-ropes pen (by BEAL) was
found to reduce fall count by 50% (by Mammut--conflict of interest, eh?),
and this was reported by UIAA, but w/o any comment from Beal about the
result!!! This seems unprofessional, on UIAA's part. Like asking GM
& Goodyear to do tests of Explorer + Firestone tires and report back!
Also, the remarks about/by Sharpie's manufacturer Sanford are odd in
that they are the makers of a laundry marker sold in the CMC Rescue
catalogue, offered (by CMC) for marking ropes & tape!? Odd that Sanford
didn't mention this marker (either as okay or as also disclaimed)!?
I'm going to bug Pit about getting the information out in full detail.
Cheers,
--dl*
====
Karl Baba
Lehman <dan_l...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > What confuses me about this information is that I have never seen it
> > in a reliable publication and Blue Water continues to sell rope
> > marking pens. BW says the pens they sell are safe, and is not aware
> > of the alleged UIAA study.
>
> Indeed, THIS is worrisome: how can BW be unaware of what UIAA is doing?
> (And NB: this warning & testing by UIAA has been going on since 1998!!)
> Not that they have to agree with the results (and if no more information
> is forthcoming than what I've seen, they should have many questions and
> reasonable skepticism!). Another thing that troubled me about the UIAA
> report was that, as "Hi" said, one special-for-ropes pen (by BEAL) was
> found to reduce fall count by 50% (by Mammut--conflict of interest, eh?),
> and this was reported by UIAA, but w/o any comment from Beal about the
> result!!! This seems unprofessional, on UIAA's part. Like asking GM
> & Goodyear to do tests of Explorer + Firestone tires and report back!
>
> Also, the remarks about/by Sharpie's manufacturer Sanford are odd in
> that they are the makers of a laundry marker sold in the CMC Rescue
> catalogue, offered (by CMC) for marking ropes & tape!? Odd that Sanford
> didn't mention this marker (either as okay or as also disclaimed)!?
>
> I'm going to bug Pit about getting the information out in full detail.
>
> Cheers,
> --dl*
> ====
Thanks for the follow up. Concession that Hi was not merely trolling,
there is obviously room for questions here. I find it utterly
astounding that something of immense safety concern has not been
addressed by parties whose whole mission is intimately related to
whether this is true or not? Don't they realize that blood sucking
lawyers could be waiting in the wings?
Manufacturers send out press releases warning that their devices have
been found to be questionable when used under wet conditions with tiny
ropes under a full moon! But the UIAA obviously hasn't done jack
dealing with rope manufacturs about an important finding and they set
the dang rope standards! Some part of this puzzle is missing
Peace
Karl (who hasn't marked his ropes but wants to)
--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> Thanks for the follow up.
Ditto! I hope we can resolve this issue.
> Concession that Hi was not merely trolling,
> there is obviously room for questions here. I find it utterly
> astounding that something of immense safety concern has not been
> addressed by parties whose whole mission is intimately related to
> whether this is true or not? Don't they realize that blood sucking
> lawyers could be waiting in the wings?
To be honest, I don't think there is an immense safety issue here.
Number of UIAA falls held is not a measure of rope strength. It is
not the first parameter I look for when choosing ropes. If the marked
ropes still pass a UIAA drop test (as in the example that was cited),
they are still way strong. It is particularly comforting to realize
that the weakness will be largely concentrated on the sheath, which is
easy to inspect. If a marked rope were to fail, it would almost
certainly show signs of wear where the sheath was weakened long before
it broke.
> Manufacturers send out press releases warning that their devices have
> been found to be questionable when used under wet conditions with tiny
> ropes under a full moon! But the UIAA obviously hasn't done jack
> dealing with rope manufacturs about an important finding and they set
> the dang rope standards! Some part of this puzzle is missing
Agreed. I notice that Beal (the manufacturer whose rope marking pens
were alleged to weaken ropes) now sells rope marking ink, but not in
pens.
> Peace
>
> Karl (who hasn't marked his ropes but wants to)
Ken
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> Thanks for the follow up.
Ditto! I hope we can resolve this issue.
> Concession that Hi was not merely trolling,
> there is obviously room for questions here. I find it utterly
> astounding that something of immense safety concern has not been
> addressed by parties whose whole mission is intimately related to
> whether this is true or not? Don't they realize that blood sucking
> lawyers could be waiting in the wings?
To be honest, I don't think there is an immense safety issue here.
Number of UIAA falls held is not a measure of rope strength. It is
not the first parameter I look for when choosing ropes. If the marked
ropes still pass a UIAA drop test (as in the example that was cited),
they are still way strong. It is particularly comforting to realize
that the weakness will be largely concentrated on the sheath, which is
easy to inspect. If a marked rope were to fail, it would almost
certainly show signs of wear where the sheath was weakened long before
it broke.
> Manufacturers send out press releases warning that their devices have
> been found to be questionable when used under wet conditions with tiny
> ropes under a full moon! But the UIAA obviously hasn't done jack
> dealing with rope manufacturs about an important finding and they set
> the dang rope standards! Some part of this puzzle is missing
Agreed. I notice that Beal (the manufacturer whose rope marking pens
were alleged to weaken ropes) now sells rope marking ink, but not in
pens.
> Peace
>
> Karl (who hasn't marked his ropes but wants to)
Ken
Thor Lancelot Simon
>warnings; the details I've not seen; conflicting information comes from
>other sources (ITRSymposium presentation 2001, e.g.).
>
>Ken....@cs.cmu.edu wrote in message
>> "hi" <noneofyou...@none.com> writes:
>>
>> > ALL OTHERS: please do not mark the middle of your rope with a felt
>> > tip pen. The UIAA has examined two sets of studies, ... even ones
>> > specifically designed for climbing, will weaken the marked part of the
>> > rope by up to 50%. The study also seemed to indicate that the ropes
>> > will get weaker at the mark over time.
>
>Let me confirm this information to the extent that indeed such warnings
>have been, and continue to be, issued by UIAA--Helmut Microys, the N.Amer.
>UIAA SAFCOM rep. just forwarded me a msg. from Pit Schubert, UIAA SAFCOM
>head (still, appparently) this past week. No, I can't give links at this
>time; the above report I think came to me via Helmut, also. And, yes,
>it's odd not to have such information 1) better presented (see below) and
>2) readily linkable. FYI, the UIAA WWWeb site is: www.uiaa.ch . And I
>think (recalling vaguely) that one might find some of this information on
>the Canadian Alpine Club's (or is it "Assoc."?) site--link is under Members
>at the UIAA site (a Lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng list of member country organizations!).
So, I can find reference there to only *one* test, in which *one* marker
"specifically sold for marking ropes" was found to weaken ropes. The thing
is, if I recall correctly, last time we hashed that out here that marker
was a Sharpie or Marks-a-Lot or the like -- a marker that might be
"specifically sold for marking ropes" (if you ignore that it's also claimed
to be suitable for marking every single other fucking thinkg in the known
universe).
At least one rope manufacturer (Blue Water) has a marker specially made
for them, with carefully controlled solvent content, for the express
purpose of marking nylon rope and webbing. I have yet to see any
substantiated claim that use of this marker actually weakens anything but
all the hyperbole about how deadly evil marking one's rope must inevitably
be.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
Dan Lehman
> In article <6708e7b0.02042...@posting.google.com>,
> Dan Lehman <dan_l...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Let me confirm this information to the extent that indeed such warnings
>
> So, I can find reference there to only *one* test, in which *one* marker
> "specifically sold for marking ropes" was found to weaken ropes. The thing
> is, if I recall correctly, last time we hashed that out here that marker
> was a Sharpie or Marks-a-Lot or the like -- a marker that might be
> "specifically sold for marking ropes" (if you ignore that it's also claimed
> to be suitable for marking every single other fucking thinkg in the known
> universe).
First, a note of cynicism to fill the lack of good test data (and sound
reasoning from UIAA): Mammut seems to be a main tester of these alleged
variably dangerous felt-tip markers; and M. are ones who pride themselves
on introducing/pioneering(?) bi-color ropes that make center-finding easy
--ah, don't want folks to do this with pens, cheaply, eh?! (o:
As for "one marker", the UIAA report points to a set of unnamed markers,
though in older, original tests (ca. 1996?) it was the infamous "Sharpie".
And the one named one of later tests is one by Beal expressly for ropes
(or, maybe, only for BEAL ropes? --well, the testing did have diff. results
for various ropes). And Sharpie isn't claimed to be suitable "for cloth",
as noted on its body (though I have signatures from the Flecktones on a
t-shirt, which seems quite cloth-like). Sharpie's maker does make a marker
for "laundry".
> At least one rope manufacturer (Blue Water) has a marker specially made
Yes, but how odd for BW to claim ignorance of what UIAA has--rightly or
foolishly--been publicly announcing for years!?
> for them, with carefully controlled solvent content, for the express
> purpose of marking nylon rope and webbing.
And, again, I'm glad to be alerted to the highly unlikely scenario it is
of a marked section of rope coming just at the point of sharp bend--another
peculiar aspect of the UIAA warning (and why didn't they do some tests of
the marked section in straight-line tension, instead of at the weakest
point of the system??? --does smell like Mammut might be trying to drive
home an attack that devalues its bi-color products !!).
More, later, if I learn anything else,
--dl*
====
Lynne
>
> First, a note of cynicism to fill the lack of good test data (and sound
> reasoning from UIAA): Mammut seems to be a main tester of these alleged
> variably dangerous felt-tip markers; and M. are ones who pride themselves
> on introducing/pioneering(?) bi-color ropes that make center-finding easy
> --ah, don't want folks to do this with pens, cheaply, eh?! (o:
I think your cynicism is warranted. However I have not marked my new rope
because of the FUD induced from these posts. I can't help but wonder, has
anyone here ever had their rope break at the middle mark (and live to tell)?
Are there ANY known incidents of this happening in the field, 'officially'
documented or otherwise?
I guess if anyone answers "yes" my next question would be, "what kind of pen
was used?"
Eric D. Coomer
news:Cghy8.148256$CH1.115673@sccrnsc02...
> "Dan Lehman" <dan_l...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > First, a note of cynicism to fill the lack of good test data (and sound
> > reasoning from UIAA): Mammut seems to be a main tester of these alleged
> > variably dangerous felt-tip markers; and M. are ones who pride
themselves
> > on introducing/pioneering(?) bi-color ropes that make center-finding
easy
> > --ah, don't want folks to do this with pens, cheaply, eh?! (o:
>
> I think your cynicism is warranted. However I have not marked my new rope
> because of the FUD induced from these posts. I can't help but wonder, has
> anyone here ever had their rope break at the middle mark (and live to
tell)?
> Are there ANY known incidents of this happening in the field, 'officially'
> documented or otherwise?
Right after all this crap was posted- I went out and bought a pen and
FINALLY marked the middle of my rope (been meaning to do that for years).
If I die, make fun of me please...
And, to my knowledge, this "failure mode" has never been observed in the
real world.
I spend most of my time in an alternate state- but tend to climb only in the
real world...
e
Michael A. Riches
coo...@ix.netcom.com wrote on 4/26/02 2:22 PM:
> Right after all this crap was posted- I went out and bought a pen and
> FINALLY marked the middle of my rope (been meaning to do that for years).
> If I die, make fun of me please...
>
> And, to my knowledge, this "failure mode" has never been observed in the
> real world.
>
> I spend most of my time in an alternate state- but tend to climb only in the
> real world...
>
> e
>
>
The thing that I find amusing is I have only ever seen one person that has
"ever" marked their rope this way...Seriously, if this was such a major
concern (as in people were "really" dying from it...), we'd be hearing about
it on a greater scale, from some top notch, notable sources rather than some
anonymous internet troll that just happened to run into a few
unsubstantiated tests that, so far prove nothing...
Seriously, if a person is that inept that they can't figure out an easy way
to quickly find the middle of their rope, then they probably deserve to get
sharpie poisoning....
Ratzzz...(Earth to Hi...??? Hello...Is there anybody in there...???)
Richard Schwaninger
> The thing that I find amusing is I have only ever seen one person that has
> "ever" marked their rope this way...Seriously, if this was such a major
> concern (as in people were "really" dying from it...), we'd be hearing about
> it on a greater scale, from some top notch, notable sources rather than some
> anonymous internet troll that just happened to run into a few
> unsubstantiated tests that, so far prove nothing...
>
> Seriously, if a person is that inept that they can't figure out an easy way
> to quickly find the middle of their rope, then they probably deserve to get
> sharpie poisoning....
>
> Ratzzz...(Earth to Hi...??? Hello...Is there anybody in there...???)
Alright, I was talking about rope marking this week and decided to look
into Pit Schubert's (safety guy in the DAV) book "Safety and risk on
rock and ice" (I don't think it's available in English though).
About marking ropes he writes (roughly translated from German):
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of chemicals, the question arises in the safety committee again
and again, "Can you mark the middle of a rope with a marking pen?"
We haven't investigated that yet - nor do we want to. Why not? Let's
assume that we find that marking pen X does not have any detrimental
effects and we publish that result, and then climbers mark their ropes
with that pen. We cannot guarantee that the chemical composition of pen
X will always remain the same. The manufacturer could alter the chemical
composition [of the ink] without us learning of the change. A change in
the chemical composition of the pen ink could lead to a weakening of the
rope.
For the time being, marking the middle of the rope with tape is the only
option. This, though has it's own disadvantages. First, the tape won't
stay put very long, secondly, upon pulling the rope (after a rap) it can
be troublesome. The best solution is to not mark the middle of the rope
since it isn't necessary, namely because:
*for rappelling with one rope, after passing the end of the rope through
the anchor you can pull both ends together and end up with the
midsection of the rope at the anchor automatically,
*when feeding rope to your partner, you're not interested about the
middle of the rope, only the last few meters.
In addition [without marking the middle of the rope] one isn't tempted
to place the exact same part of the rope at the anchor where the highest
stress will be. This way [not using the middle marker], the wear on the
rope which occurs at the anchor is spread out over a longer section of
the rope.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roughly translated from "Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis", Pit
Schubert, 1998
Makes some sense, no?
rich rookie
--
"I banish fear, you lead"
Thor Lancelot Simon
Richard Schwaninger <ric...@alpineclimb.org> wrote:
>
>For the time being, marking the middle of the rope with tape is the only
>option. This, though has it's own disadvantages. First, the tape won't
Last time this came up I bounced this off a friend with a textile
conservation background; I thought it sounded a bit suspicious because
of things I knew about archival paper conservation. She concurred with my
impression that this was a rather bad idea.
Almost all adhesives not specifically formulated for archival work (document
restoration, archival framing, textile repair and conservation) are rather
acidic, contain solvents, or both. Studies in textile conservation have
shown that acidity migrates very quickly through almost all fabrics; e.g.
from the sheath of your rope into the core. Furthermore, even once the
tape wears off, most of the adhesive is usually left behind as a gummy
residue; thus your rope's still in contact with whatever was in the glue
that kept the tape on, which probably isn't good for it.
Indeed, though taping ropes, draws, etc. is semi-regularly *recommended*
in climbing rags (and evidently even by a member of the UIAA safety committee)
I think it might well be worse for the textiles we use in climbing than
marking them with a marking pen, particularly one made specifically for the
purpose.
That this would be recommended as "the only safe alternative" makes me
pretty darned skeptical of the expertise of those on the UIAA safety
committee. Of course, so do lots of other things, like their inability
to get reproducible results from their "standard" rope testing procedure,
the choice of materials they originally recommended for climbing bolts, you
get the idea...
Richard Schwaninger
Ahh, but Pit Schubert didn't actually recommend tape. He recommended not
marking at all. He recommended tape over pens though.
Martin Carpenter
"Thor Lancelot Simon" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:aaff60$mpa$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> In article <3CCA4464...@alpineclimb.org>,
> Richard Schwaninger <ric...@alpineclimb.org> wrote:
> >
> >For the time being, marking the middle of the rope with tape is the only
> >option. This, though has it's own disadvantages. First, the tape won't
>
> Last time this came up I bounced this off a friend with a textile
> conservation background; I thought it sounded a bit suspicious because
> of things I knew about archival paper conservation. She concurred with my
> impression that this was a rather bad idea.
Data point: my new Edelrid line came with a tape middle marker.
Martin.
Brent Ware
Oh my god! All my ropes came with tape markers on the ends! Those
bastards. I should probably retire them. The ropes.
-bw
type II
Chiloe
> Almost all adhesives not specifically formulated for archival work (document
> restoration, archival framing, textile repair and conservation) are rather
> acidic, contain solvents, or both.
This thread gets more and more disturbing. I've never heard of anyone
breaking a rope at the middle mark, whether taped or Sharpied. Nor do
scenarios where the middle-mark would be stressed over an edge seem
very likely. Still, the whole discussion has raised feeble doubts
where I had none before.
Pit climbs differently than I do if he never needs to *see* the middle.
Perhaps the upshot of this fuss will be a jump in sales of bipattern
ropes.
Thor Lancelot Simon
Obviously the last 1" of the rope never bears much load. I'd be more
concerned about them *melting* it, myself, if I cared how strong it was. :-)
Anyway, "tape" end-wraps and middle-markers are often heat-shrink of some
kind, possibly under tape; not tape directly applied to the rope.
I'm not saying that taping your rope will kill you. I *am* saying there
are reasons to think it's quite possibly worse for the rope than using a
marking pen on it -- which just goes to highlight just how silly this whole
marking pen "controversy" is.
Michael A. Riches
4/28/02 8:23 AM:
> Oh my god! All my ropes came with tape markers on the ends! Those
> bastards. I should probably retire them. The ropes.
>
> -bw
> type II
The bastards, too...
Ratzzz...
Caleb Hess
Martin Carpenter <mcarp...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>Data point: my new Edelrid line came with a tape middle marker.
>
>Martin.
>
shrink tubing rather than sticky tape. In any case, the rope never broke
there or anywhere else.
--
Caleb Hess he...@cs.indiana.edu
Chiloe
The first part confirms what was earlier posted here, but he
ends with a suggestion I haven't seen on this thread.
"What I do know is there was indeed a test conducted by a UIAA
certified lab that found there was a 50% reduction in the number
of falls held by ropes treated with a [marker pen]. In any event,
when the ropes were treated and tested the marked portion of the
rope was place directly on the 10mm radius edge that is the pivot
point. In order to duplicate this scenario in the field one would
have to take 50 or 60 meter falls (depending on rope length) in
order to have the middle marker land on the pivot point. Not a
fall I would take willingly and certainly would not repeat enough
times to see rope failure. By the way, I think the ropes that
were treated and tested still passed the minimum number of falls
(5) held requirement. Also by the way, I think many people are
confusing reduction of falls held with reduction of strength.
Falls held and strength are not the same. As best as I can
remember I didn't see any data on breaking strengths with these
tests."
"So, all that said I should state that I have a number of marking
methods available to me including bi-color and bi-pattern ropes
yet I never bother with any of them. I've always used the 'match
the ends and feed' method."
"If people really want to mark the middle of their ropes and don't
want to pay for a bi-color or bi-pattern, here is my
recommendation. Take waxed dental floss and a needle with a large
enough eye for the dental floss and sew a marker into the rope.
If done correctly it will last a very long time and will not move
around or fall off. If done incorrectly it will merely unravel
and fall off but will not cause any harm to the rope. The needle
will pass through fibers of the rope without damaging them."
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> A friend in the rope business offered the comments below.
> The first part confirms what was earlier posted here, but he
> ends with a suggestion I haven't seen on this thread.
...
> "Take waxed dental floss and a needle with a large
> enough eye for the dental floss and sew a marker into the rope.
It's in the FAQ. At least that's my reason for not bringing it up
again. It struck me as odd that this was not mentioned in the
recommendations of the UIAA committee.
Ken
Martin Carpenter
"Brent Ware" <bw...@bware.org> wrote in message
news:m38z779...@bware.org...
> "Martin Carpenter" <mcarp...@free.fr> writes:
> > Data point: my new Edelrid line came with a tape middle marker.
>
> Oh my god! All my ropes came with tape markers on the ends! Those
> bastards. I should probably retire them. The ropes.
I agree. Send them to me and I'll make sure that they get disposed of
appropriately.
Incidentally, I was tending more towards "I'm certain rope manufacturers
thought about this" than "Oh my, I'm going to die next time I stress my
dangerous manufacturer-provided tape mark". Well, they probably did. *shrug*
Martin.
Martin Carpenter
"Caleb Hess" <he...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> My old Edelrid rope had a middle mark, but I thought it looked more like
> shrink tubing rather than sticky tape. In any case, the rope never broke
> there or anywhere else.
Whatever, but mine's already moved a foot off of center. Great... "safe but
ineffective"... maybe...
I reckon another dozen or so runs through the reverso and it'll get chewed
off anyway.
Martin.