I just threw all my Petzl gear in the Garbage
The General
I will never again buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
From this point on all my cash goes to Black Diamond.
!@#$%^& Back Stabbing French.
Peace and Love
The General
Over There
Johnnie, get your gun,
Get your gun, get your gun,
Take it on the run,
On the run, on the run.
Hear them calling, you and me,
Every son of liberty.
Hurry right away,
No delay, no delay,
Make your daddy glad
To have had such a lad.
Tell your sweetheart not pine,
To be proud her boy's in line.
Chorus
Over there, over there, Send the word, send the word over there-- That
the Yanks are coming, The Yanks are coming, The drums rum-tumming
Ev'rywhere. So prepare, say a pray'r, Send the word, send the word to
beware. We'll be over, we're coming over, And we won't come back till
it's over Over there.
Johnnie, get your gun, Get your gun, get your gun, Johnnie show the Hun
Who's a son of a gun. Hoist the flag and let her fly, Yankee Doodle do
or die. Pack your little kit, Show your grit, do your bit. Yankee Doodle
fill the ranks, From the towns and the tanks. Make your mother proud of
you, And the old Red, White and Blue.
mark
<gen...@aol.com> wrote:
> I will never again buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
You should have sent it to me. Got any French wine you need to toss?
--
mark
markjs1@*nospam*yahoo.com
~~~~~~~
"It is not true that all conservatives are stupid. It is, however, true that
most stupid people are conservative." -- H. L Mencken
A.M.
news:b59suc$4ut$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> I will never again buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
>
> From this point on all my cash goes to Black Diamond.
>
> !@#$%^& Back Stabbing French.
Since when were the French on your side anyway?
btw, I read about this in a local newspaper:
http://www.bretzelforbush.com/
Daveap
chem. or bio weapons on our troops.
It's great to know they're "behind" us all they way (WOAH, triple meaning
there! lol)
And, hold on, wait a minute........I thought the French said Iraq didn't
have any of that stuff............hmmmm.......interesting.
Ok, who wants my 5 year old Gri Gri?
Dave
BenignVanilla
news:3E788E63...@FSPAM.excite.com...
> Now come on...........the French DID say they would help us if Iraq uses
> chem. or bio weapons on our troops.
> It's great to know they're "behind" us all they way (WOAH, triple meaning
> there! lol)
I think it was Patton that once said, "I'd rather have a German division in
front of me, then a French one behind me."
BV.
Serial # 19781010
(Beal).
Markus Winter
>
>I will never again buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
>
>From this point on all my cash goes to Black Diamond.
>
>!@#$%^& Back Stabbing French.
When are you sending back the Statue of Liberty back to France?
Cheers
Markus
Tim Stich
> In article <b59suc$4ut$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>, The General
> <gen...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I will never again buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
>
> You should have sent it to me. Got any French wine you need to toss?
Yew poor stoopeed Americuns. You dreenk zee French wine, pees in zee
bottle, and then send eet back to zee Germans saying, "Oops. My
mistake. I thought this came from your country." Can you not think for
yourselves over there?
-Jaque Ray Bleu
Herbert Herbert
Yeah! To hell with those ungrateful bastards. Especially after the way
we backed up the French in June 1940 when the Nazis invaded them!
Uh wait...what's that you say? Took us four years? Oh. And then the
Russians were facing over 3/4ths of what was left of the German Army?
HH
Guillaume Dargaud
| (FRENCH) FREE CLIMBING COUPON |
| To: Batten, The General, ... |
| Good for a day of climbing with a Frenchman |
| The trip includes: free french accent and a rope |
| On request: french wine, mustard, ham and cheese |
\===================================================/
Well, my family keep asking me if it's any trouble being french in the US
right now... On the opposite, everyone I meet these days who hears my accent
seems to go at great lengths to extricate themselves from Dubbia's actions
and politics. It's sometimes painful to watch. Apparently not all americans
are suckers for the pure propaganda printed in the newspapers those days...
--
Guillaume Dargaud
Colorado State University
http://www.gdargaud.net/
"Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be
changed regularly and for the same reason."
B. Cooke
> Yeah! To hell with those ungrateful bastards. Especially after the way
> we backed up the French in June 1940 when the Nazis invaded them!
>
> Uh wait...what's that you say? Took us four years? Oh. And then the
> Russians were facing over 3/4ths of what was left of the German Army?
Recently a friend commented that he found it interesting that the only war
that the US appeared to be in from the start was their own civil war...
Now that Canada's officially out of the action has there been any move to
rename products like "Canadian Bacon" and such? Mmmm... "Liberty
Bacon."
Fred Ernst
Makes sense, since most people you meet are probably at the University,
where the majority of folks are liberal, and hold fast to the "blame America
first" philosophy.
Fred
Hugh McNeil
"Fred Ernst" <fce...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:s25ea.171751$6b3.4...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
mike
Are you for real or what? I think that being patriotic is a good
thing- I love my country and would die for it. But come on- I thought
we, as climbers, were capable of a little free thought. Defence- fuck
yeah. Offense, under the guise of 'weapons of mass destruction' and
other media induced hysteria?!!? all in the persuit of oil?!? Fuckin
Bullshit!
Mike
b wolfe
The Iraquis haven't attacked us......haven't threatened
us.......weren't planning on it
intoyoulik...@yahoo.com (Herbert Herbert) wrote in message news:<254152f1.03031...@posting.google.com>...
Gary Schenk
> On 19 Mar 2003, Herbert Herbert wrote:
>
>> Yeah! To hell with those ungrateful bastards. Especially after the way
>> we backed up the French in June 1940 when the Nazis invaded them!
>>
>> Uh wait...what's that you say? Took us four years? Oh. And then the
>> Russians were facing over 3/4ths of what was left of the German Army?
>
> Recently a friend commented that he found it interesting that the only war
> that the US appeared to be in from the start was their own civil war...
Just as it should be! Bush was certainly in no rush to go to war in Vietnam.
Except maybe in a rush to desert his country!
> Now that Canada's officially out of the action has there been any move to
> rename products like "Canadian Bacon" and such? Mmmm... "Liberty
> Bacon."
--
Gary Schenk
Gary Schenk
Bush revealed himself this morning, when the "administration" stated that
even if Hussein did submit to exile the army would enter Iraq anyway to
look for WMD. Of course, the oil fields would have to be searched first.
--
Gary Schenk
Climb14er
oil and gasoline from US producers and refineries. And while I love
Palestinian and Arab foods, I have been boycotting these for the past 1.5
years. To hell with them. This fourth generation American's money is going
to where I want it to go! Last purchase. Western Mountaineering bag. Bye,
bye Frogs.
Climb14er
Denver, CO
"The General" <gen...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b59suc$4ut$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
>
Michael A. Riches
gwsc...@NOSPAMsocal.rr.com wrote on 3/19/03 8:52 PM:
Yeah....but see'ins how the good ol' US of A gets the majority of it's oil
from South America, what do you suppose they'd be searching for...???
Ratzzz...
Greg Barnes
>
Petzl carabiners are made in Utah (the one between Colorado and
Nevada, not a little town in France, although there is a beach by that
name...). I think it's Thompson Manufacturing in the Salt Lake area...
Greg
Doug Bruce
"> Here we go... wheeee haaaaahhhhh....
>
Doug Bruce
"mike" <psyc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af358c8f.03031...@posting.google.com...> > I will buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
> >
> > From this point on all my ash goes to Black Diamond.
> >
> >Backing French.
> >
> > Peace and Love
> >
> > The General
> >
> >
> > Over There
> >
> > Hurry away,
> > No, delay,
> > Make your daddy glad
> > To have had such a lad.
> >
> >
> >We'll be over, And we won't come back.
> > Hoist the flag and let her fly, Yankee Doodle do
> Are you for real or what? I think that being patriotic is a good
> thing- I love my country and would die for it. But come on- I thought
> we, as climbers, were capable of a little free thought. Defence- fuck
> yeah. Offense, under the guise of 'weapons of mass destruction' and
> other media induced hysteria?!!? all in the persuit of oil?!? Fuckin
> Bullshit!
>
> Mike
Sadly, Mike, climbers like any other group has its fair share of fuckwits.
Doug
Gary Schenk
Well, Rumsfeld gave the army orders that their top priority was to capture
the oilfields intact. C'mon, Hussein doesn't even control his own country,
much less pose a threat to anyone else. Unlike North Korea...
--
Gary Schenk
Mr. T
As opposed to the informed, educated braintrust that is Heartland
America...
Ryan Pfleger
people you've come in contact with. I think maybe part of the problem stems
from Dubyah's poor mind for geography. I believe he thinks France is part
of Iraq! Hey, while everyone is giving away their excellent French gear, I
could really use a pair of ice tools! How about some Axars?
Ryan
"Guillaume Dargaud" <noUSEs...@gdargaud.net> wrote in message
news:c64ea.174102$sf5....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Michael A. Riches
gwsc...@NOSPAMsocal.rr.com wrote on 3/20/03 12:10 AM:
>> Yeah....but see'ins how the good ol' US of A gets the majority of it's oil
>> from South America, what do you suppose they'd be searching for...???
>>
>>
>> Ratzzz...
>
> Well, Rumsfeld gave the army orders that their top priority was to capture
> the oilfields intact. C'mon, Hussein doesn't even control his own country,
> much less pose a threat to anyone else. Unlike North Korea...
> --
> Gary Schenk
If his strangle hold on his people ain't control, I don't understand the
meaning of the word...
I do agree with you, though, that he doesn't pose much of a threat. That is
why I think he should be brought up on charges, for the atrocities he's
committed against his people, in a World Court, tried under the scrutiny of
the entire planet and held accountable for his actions.
I also think Bush is walking a very fine line. If he so much as wobbles, I
think he should be brought up in front of that same Tribunal and tried just
as vehemently as the war criminal he is about to become...
Ratzzz...
Fred Ernst
I agree. One has to, to actually do great things, instead of just
"discussing" things the way liberals do in an attempt to make them feel
better about themselves. Here's Bush's punch list if you haven't been paying
attention:
1. Free Iraq.
2. Create a Palestinian state, new Prime Minister is currently being
elected.
3. Straighten out N. Korea
4. Funding $500 million for Aids prevention in Africa.
Dubya's getting it done, and there's something for everyone!
AMG
5. Funding $10 BILLION for Israel.
gee, I wonder why Muslim nations are paranoid....
doh!
Ben Heavner
>Yeah....but see'ins how the good ol' US of A gets the majority of it's oil
>from South America, what do you suppose they'd be searching for...???
>
>
>Ratzzz...
>
Actually, acording to the DOE at
http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw246.shtml, the top 10 countries
are Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, Iraq, the United
Kingdom, Norway, Angola, and Algeria.
I suppose if you consider Mexico "South America" and add it to Venezuela,
then you get a majority, but really we get a majority from North
America...
-b
Bob
consumers be bound by national boundaries? Do you think Richard Perle is
going to sell his vacation home in southern France? or the Japanese, British
and American divest from wine production in Bordeaux? funny how only the
common folks are supposed to walk the talk.
A.M.
news:Z2jea.180243$6b3.4...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> I agree. One has to, to actually do great things, instead of just
> "discussing" things the way liberals do in an attempt to make them feel
> better about themselves. Here's Bush's punch list if you haven't been
paying
> attention:
>
> 1. Free Iraq.
And then provide humanitarian aid I hope?
> 2. Create a Palestinian state, new Prime Minister is currently being
> elected.
> 3. Straighten out N. Korea
Without destabilizing the region? I worry about that one.
> 4. Funding $500 million for Aids prevention in Africa.
What about the US and UN getting involved in the wars which are causing
widespread poverty and AIDS?
> Dubya's getting it done, and there's something for everyone!
He may want to look into these other conflicts :
1. India-Pakistan Kashmir conflict which threatens nuclear catastrophe far
beyond that which Iraq or North Korea could produce.
2. Colombia and their 40 year conflict which has caused highly educated
refugees like doctors and engineers to flee from death.
3. DRC : which is under invasion from tribes from wartorn Rwanda, Zambia,
Mozambique... this one doesn't even makes the news even with all the
casualties.
Jason Liebgott
in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
bush sure is doing great things. (SARCASM)
j.
nafod40
> sure sucks that state after state is laying off teachers... not enough coin
> in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
Public education is a local community thing. If your community is laying
off teachers, it is because you and your neighbors choose to not suck it
up and pay them.
Wiclimber
>
>sure sucks that state after state is laying off teachers... not enough coin
>in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
thats a state budget thing, not federal.
>bush sure is doing great things. (SARCASM)
>j.
i get your point though. just think what we could do with all the cash spent
on wars and foolish foriegn aid?
makes me sick to think about it....
AMG
"Jason Liebgott" <jlie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5cvu1$27fne5$1...@ID-86199.news.dfncis.de...
> sure sucks that state after state is laying off teachers... not enough
coin
> in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
I think we are dropping it on Iraq? (CYNICISM)
> bush sure is doing great things. (SARCASM)
It's really rather hopeless. Surf some international news and get really
bummed out. The sad thing is we really ARE a nation of patriots and
generous folk - most of whom believe the black/white us/them explanation -
who believe we are doing the 'right thing'. I have NO doubt that every US
soldier out there is willing to put his life on the line for the highest
values, and at the same time truly wants to help an oppressed people. Yet I
heard a news report yesterday that there's only ONE country where
independent polls show a majority in favor of attacking Iraq - Israel.
Every other country - including those 'for us' - shows a popular majority
opposed. God has often been mentioned in the rhetoric, yet every major
faith has published an official statement of condemnation. Reminds me too
much of Orwell's 1984...
I'd better keep to reading the climbing threads.
BenignVanilla
news:20030320132805...@mb-fc.aol.com...
<snip>
> i get your point though. just think what we could do with all the cash
spent
> on wars and foolish foriegn aid?
>
> makes me sick to think about it....
Maybe when the war is done, we can get declare war on ignorance, and budget
50 billion to college education. How many people would that help, I wonder?
BV.
Hugh McNeil
"Wiclimber"
> i get your point though. just think what we could do with all the cash
spent
> on wars and foolish foriegn aid?
>
> makes me sick to think about it....
Published estimates suggest that the campaign in Iraq will cost ~$100
Billion in the first year. That's roughly $350 for every man, woman, and
child in the USA.
Wouldn't $350 cover basic health insurance?
Tim Stich
> /===================================================\
> | (FRENCH) FREE CLIMBING COUPON |
> | To: Batten, The General, ... |
> | Good for a day of climbing with a Frenchman |
> | The trip includes: free french accent and a rope |
> | On request: french wine, mustard, ham and cheese |
> \===================================================/
What, does one have to insult you to get such coupons? That figures.
> Well, my family keep asking me if it's any trouble being french in the US
> right now...
Some stupid people in Texas spraypainted "Scum. Go back to France" on
a French guys house. A reward was offered for their capture.
On the opposite, everyone I meet these days who hears my accent
> seems to go at great lengths to extricate themselves from Dubbia's actions
> and politics. It's sometimes painful to watch.
Yes, my mother and I received the same painful appologies from a
middle-aged waiter in St. Tropez. That was 1987. It was just a general
appology for everything. We loved France, so it was quite curious to
hear that.
Apparently not all americans
> are suckers for the pure propaganda printed in the newspapers those days...
Newpapers and Batten...their formulas are basically of the same ilk.
Polemic, unthinking, crass entertainment designed to appeal to the
lowest common denominator. It's cookie cutter stuff.
-Tim Stich
Randy Quammock
With all due respect (which is very little), you're a fucking moron.
What do you do when you don't like your daughter's boyfriend, chain
her in the garage?
Here we have a country that disagrees with our position. And you want
to go medieval on their ass? What's that about? How about taking issue
with countries with real agendas against us? How about parsing the
tangled skein of relations: Carlyle, Halliburton, Bush?
More critically, how dare you, you pathethic shit, suggest that
disputing the need for invading Iraq is contrary to American
interests. Iraq poses no credible threat to American interests, nor
does it have material relations with organizations - such as Al Qaeda
- that do pose credible threats to American interests.
It's hidebound ideologues like you who are the true unAmericans. You
should all decamp to whatever fevered fascist fantasy you desire; I
suggest 1930s Italy. Us real Americans, who can handle more than one
train of thought, will carry on.
Asshole.
(And before you go after my credentials: I live in NYC, was here on
911, come from career officers on both sides, including POWs, and have
seen the real shit in my life.)
The General <gen...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<b59suc$4ut$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>...
> I will never again buy any climbing gear that is made in France.
>
> From this point on all my cash goes to Black Diamond.
>
> !@#$%^& Back Stabbing French.
>
> Peace and Love
>
> The General
>
>
> Over There
>
> Johnnie, get your gun,
> Get your gun, get your gun,
> Take it on the run,
> On the run, on the run.
> Hear them calling, you and me,
> Every son of liberty.
> Hurry right away,
> No delay, no delay,
> Make your daddy glad
> To have had such a lad.
> Tell your sweetheart not pine,
> To be proud her boy's in line.
>
> Chorus
>
> Over there, over there, Send the word, send the word over there-- That
> the Yanks are coming, The Yanks are coming, The drums rum-tumming
> Ev'rywhere. So prepare, say a pray'r, Send the word, send the word to
> beware. We'll be over, we're coming over, And we won't come back till
> it's over Over there.
>
> Johnnie, get your gun, Get your gun, get your gun, Johnnie show the Hun
> Who's a son of a gun. Hoist the flag and let her fly, Yankee Doodle do
nafod40
> General,
>
> With all due respect (which is very little), you're a $%#ing moron.
No, actually he's a Batten, master troller. Congrats, you're the first
person to take the hook deep.
Fred Ernst
(Or more like sophomoric. )
Do you doubt Sadamm consorts with terrorirists? There are documented Al
Qaeda personnel and training camps in Northern Iraq. Have you forgotten
Sadaam's pay to play offer to the families of suicide bombers. He just cut a
$450,000 check two weeks ago. This Iraq operation is just one campaign in
the war against terror.
Be glad Bush has the resolve to fight terrorism. Unlike the UN who failed to
act on behalf of Rwanda and Kosovo. It was NATO who finally stood up and
ended the atrocity in Kosovo.
Doug Bruce
"nafod40" <may...@SPAMAWAY.psu.edu> wrote in message
news:3E7A059C...@SPAMAWAY.psu.edu...
- Doug
Christopher A. Kantarjiev
You're not from these parts, are you son?
Hardman Knott
> Apparently not all americans
> are suckers for the pure propaganda printed in the newspapers those
> days...
Since nobody seems to be climbing or talking about climbing,
I'll come out of the political woodwork as an extreme Moderate...
Would you say that NPR is unbiased?
I have heard it called "National Propaganda Radio"...
Why is that? Because NPR is totally unbiased,
and the right-wingers don't like anything middle-of-the-road?
Here in the Bay Area, both the SF Chronicle and it's website
http://www.sfgate.com
are somewhat biased to the left. (how much is subjective, of course)
I also remember hearing about how 90% of journalists vote
democrat. Hmmm...Propaganda?
Here's something I stumbled across this morning.
The website appears to be republican-friendly,
so this story might be made-up propaganda.
I sure hope so.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-614607,00.html
March 18, 2003
See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd
"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped
into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head
first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died
screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their
remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be
used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam
Hussein's youngest son] personally supervise these murders."
This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by
researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide
evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war
crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken
in the past two weeks.
Another witness told us about practices of the security services
towards women: "Women were suspended by their hair as their families
watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . .
women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until
their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation."
The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting
and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are
told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is
of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are
true and sign them.
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the
people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed
since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to
repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution
and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam's Iraq.
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq —
which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia
would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed
genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes
far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in
1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the
genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the
invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti
civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991
Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the
draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically
cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands
of political opponents.
Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention
that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans
from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the
world has ignored the crimes against them?
All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US,
Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has
failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition
from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever
been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have
said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war.
But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.
I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing.
This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the
help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the
Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.
Guillaume Dargaud
> where the majority of folks are liberal, and hold fast to the "blame
America
> first" philosophy.
Yes, but also:
- the white trash neighbors who picked up the mail at the same time and
heard my accent,
- the rednecks shoveling the entrance to their trailer we saluted while
skiing through tuesday's storm to go get some beer,
- the mexican neighbors,
- the lady at the Safeway counter,
- people working in various stores,
- the guys who happened to be on the same chairlifts last friday before I
took a 30m jump, broke my thumb and nearly broke my back,
- people I've never seen who email through my website although nowhere on it
does it states where I'm from.
But then you'll say that it's normal since all those people seem to be poor
and probably have relatives fighting in Iraq, and if they owned their own
munition factories or texan oil fields they'd be pro-war. Hmmm...
But I don't like to discuss politics with a pale copy of Eliza run by the
NSA...
--
Guillaume Dargaud
Colorado State University
http://www.gdargaud.net/
"Sure, the government lies and the media lies, but in a democracy, they're
different lies."
Fred Ernst
rather just being polite. You'll find most Americans are courteous to
foreigners, especially in Fort Collins.
Will Niccolls
"Guillaume Dargaud" <noUSEN...@gdargaud.net> wrote in message
news:3e7a...@news.ColoState.EDU...
> > Makes sense, since most people you meet are probably at the University,
> > where the majority of folks are liberal, and hold fast to the "blame
> America
> > first" philosophy.
>
> Yes, but also:
> - the white trash neighbors who picked up the mail at the same time and
> heard my accent,
> - the rednecks shoveling the entrance to their trailer we saluted while
> skiing through tuesday's storm to go get some beer,
> - the mexican neighbors,
> - the lady at the Safeway counter,
> - people working in various stores,
> - the guys who happened to be on the same chairlifts last friday before I
> took a 30m jump, broke my thumb and nearly broke my back,
> - people I've never seen who email through my website although nowhere on
it
> does it states where I'm from.
>
> But then you'll say that it's normal since all those people seem to be
poor
> and probably have relatives fighting in Iraq, and if they owned their own
> munition factories or texan oil fields they'd be pro-war. Hmmm...
I wouldn't say that, but I will say this: The ones that do disagree with
France's stance are either polite enough not to harass you, or they realize
that individuals are not necessarily responsible for their governments
position, and in
countries like the US and France, are free to disagree with it. So your
statistical sampling is biased--those who support France's position are
eager to tell you that, those who disagree keep quiet.
Reasonable people have come to widely different conclusions about whether
this war is right or wrong, and their conclusion cannot be predicted on so
simple a characteristic as their socioeconomic status.
My own conclusion is that it is in the economic self interest of many large
French companies to keep Saddam in power, because they have contracts that
will be worthless when he's out. Very understandable that they should feel
that way and try to influence their government to fight for their interests.
Anyway, it's all going to be over quickly. And then we can ask those whose
opinion is the one that REALLY matters: The newly liberated people of
Iraq...
Will Niccolls
Mountain Man
Thank God someone has some sense on this thread. Some of these people
are the kind that would have said the exact snide stupid things 65
years ago if we were going to stand up to Adolf Hitler before 40
million people died in WWII.
Lets give thanks to all the brave men and women willing to lay down
their lives to ensure further terrorist attacks on our country don't
happen so the morons can blissfully live their lives and snear at
decent men and women who actually understand what's really going on,
not parroting the opinions of the liberal elite.
Supposedly France is afraid because of their large Muslim minority,
which could really flip with little provocation. That's no reason to
treat any French man or woman with disrespect. Likewise the Iraki
people are not our enemy. Only the monsters running their country.
Michael A. Riches
fce...@attbi.com wrote on 3/20/03 7:08 AM:
> Dubya's getting it done, and there's something for everyone!
Yup...he sure is, and when he's finished...welllll, we really won't need all
that free time to climb, each of us will be doing double duty, digging our
asses out of the hole he's digging for your "Everyone"...
Ratzzz...
x15x15
> sure sucks that state after state is laying off teachers... not enough
coin
> in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
Don't blanket statement on this one. There is more to it than it appears
you understand.
> bush sure is doing great things. (SARCASM)
As a teacher in California I look to Davis on the state level as well as our
supervisors and superintendent on the county level to place the blame. And
no, I have not been pink slipped, but I am looking over my shoulder. Same
thing happened in the early 90's and I did lose my job. Funny thing though,
the kids don't go anywhere and teachers still need to be in the classroom.
x15x15
mike
> > Are you for real or what?
>
> You're not from these parts, are you son?
No, but I'll be working in LA as of Tuesday. Pretty curious to feel
the public vibe.
Mike
Scott
Not so simple. States get lots of fed money for all kinds of things.
When that gets cut back, other programs not directly funded by the
feds, like schools, can get hit too.
Scott
Scott
Yeah, And the US and the rest of the world sat by and watched the
Huttus slaughter the Tutsis (sp??). I suspect if they'd been sitting
on the world's second largest supplies of oil, we'd have invaded. But
those Rwandans had dark skin and lived in a boring part of the world,
so we just watched it happen. Our double standards nauseate me.
Scott
Michael A. Riches
fce...@attbi.com wrote on 3/20/03 2:32 PM:
> Be glad Bush has the resolve to fight terrorism.
I don't think it has anything to do with resolve...911 gave Shrub a taste
for the "Ultimate Power" that goes with his position and he has become
seriously addicted to it's taste...Gunboat diplomacy works great in the
movies, but it has a tendency to scare the shit out of your allies in real
life. We started with 42 countries that were (most of them quietly) backing
action against Iraq, if needed. That figure is steadily declining and will
until we are standing alone slinging bombs at anybody that has a different
ideology the we do...
Ratzzz...
Michael A. Riches
wicl...@aol.comdyno wrote on 3/20/03 12:28 PM:
>
>>
>> sure sucks that state after state is laying off teachers... not enough coin
>> in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
>
> thats a state budget thing, not federal.
Actually the federal government has quite a bit to do with the funding of
education. And when the federal monies dry up, the state and local
governments generally can't make up that deficiency...
>
>> bush sure is doing great things. (SARCASM)
>> j.
>
> i get your point though. just think what we could do with all the cash spent
> on wars and foolish foriegn aid?
>
> makes me sick to think about it....
Ditto...
Ratzzz...
Fred Ernst
against Sadaam because his ideology is just a little different than ours. Do
you even hear yourself? You make no sense.
Get over the delusion that Bush is a megalomaniac, or the Devil. He's just
a man doing his job, which as Commander-In-Chief, is to protect our poor
dumb asses.
Hmm, Poor Hans Blix sounded dumbfounded this morning when he heard about the
missles being lobbed into Kuwait this morning. He said the Iraqis stated
they did not have those anymore. Guess he was lied to.
minnie
Will Niccolls <kn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Nytea.11781$pK4.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>or they realize that individuals are not necessarily responsible for their
governments position,
i knew someone could say this!
i can put away the rod and reel and go climbing ...
-minnie
Michael A. Riches
wrote on 3/21/03 12:19 am:
> so your reasoning leads us to the conclusion that we can't take action
> against sadaam because his ideology is just a little different than ours. do
> you even hear yourself? you make no sense.
Actually, I think your reading comprension needs a little work. I have
stated, many times (even recently....), that Saddam is not only a criminal
but is sick, sadistic SOB...I also have stated that he needs to be dealt
with, just not in the way that Shrub has taken it upon himself to do...
> get over the delusion that bush is a megalomaniac,
Why...??? it's the truth...
> or the devil.
Your words, not mine...
> he's just
> a man doing his job, which as commander-in-chief, is to protect our poor
> dumb asses.
Actually, our "asses" have very little to do with his reasons for doing what
he's doing...
> hmm, poor hans blix sounded dumbfounded this morning when he heard about the
> missles being lobbed into kuwait this morning. he said the iraqis stated
> they did not have those anymore. guess he was lied to.
And, what is your point...??? Saddam has committed far worse atrocities then
lying to some Weapons Inspector and he needs to held accountable for every
one of his crimes. He needs to be tried, convicted and punished. But it
needs to be done with due process and it needs to be done by the world, not
some half cocked, delusional, superhero wannabe, that just happens to be
sitting on the largest and most deadly arsenal this side of Pluto...Shrub
doesn't have the intelligence, the moral fortitude, nor the self control to
be able to handle the weapons that he's got his trigger finger on...
If Saddam were to be dealt with by a world tribunal, found guilty, and
sentenced, then I would be the first to jump up and support any measure
necessary to bring him to justice. But right now, it ain't our place, duty
or obligation to intervene. Daddy had his chance and he stopped short. In my
opinion, this is nothing more then vigilantism on a monstrous scale...
You're entitled to your opinion...that's mine and I guarantee you won't
change it. If you feel good about "The ends justifies the means" type of
Cowboy Diplomacy, then you won't mind it when the next wave of Super Storm
Troopers kick your door in and haul you and your family away, because
somebody thinks you might become a threat, someday...Do you own any
weapons...???
Ratzzz...
mike
Don't ya think that after years- even decades of PLO terrorism- it's
kinda funny that England is backing the war on Iraq and hasn't
declared war on Ireland? HMMMMMM could it be that it's not against
terrorism?
Pretty sure it's about the oil, mate.
Get with the program.
Mike
ps $450,000 cheque?!?!? Pennies- how much does a cruise missle cost?
Fred Ernst
fantasy world Sadaam would turn himself over to authorities and no one would
get hurt. Sounds good to me, but I know that would never happen no matter
how hard I squeeze my eyes shut and wish. Bush's campaign on terror seems
delusional to you. I know it's hard for you to get your mind around the
concept, but unfortunately we can't wait for you to get up to speed. So get
to the rear and just watch and learn for now.
I'm not worried about Storm Troopers knocking my door down. I think you need
to get out of your room, go climbing and try to shake off that paranoia you
seem to have let yourself sink into.
Daveap
some swamp-land down in Florida that I'd love to sell you! Interested?
When's the last time you heard "both" sides of a story represented on
NPR........they lean waaaaaaaaaaay left!
I call em like I see em,
dave
Fred Ernst
Let's go to war for oil? Why aren't we down in Venezuela taking over their
fields. That sitituation down there is very unstable and ripe for the
picking. Would be a lot cheaper in mobilization costs. Hmmm, guess we don't
just go to war for oil. Don't be such a simpleton.
Let me explain it to you: Sadaam is a strategic piece of the puzzle in a
very violent, unstable region that produces terrorists who want to kill us.
I don't understand how you are trying to compare the cost of a cruise missle
with payment to terrorists, unless you support the latter?
Fred
Daveap
support our action against it. Honestly, how long would it take for this "world
tribunal" to act??!! By the time that happens, probably 2-3 years(or more), maybe
your family might come down with a nasty case of the Anthrax?? Maybe? Could
happen? I say fuckin A yes it "could" happen. How much is that worth to you?
How much is your safety worth?
So maybe instead of thinking so ideological, you could think a bit more practical
and pull you head out of the sand.
No solution is perfect..............
Now go out and support your country!
Ok, now who want's my 4 year old Petzl runner?
dave
Fred Ernst
You instantly lose credibility when you argue that someone is totally
unbiased. Politicians, teachers, stockbrokers, priests, journalists, soccer
moms; everyone has an axe to grind.
Wiclimber
Lord Slime
> Published estimates suggest that the campaign in Iraq will cost ~$100
> Billion in the first year. That's roughly $350 for every man, woman, and
> child in the USA.
>
> Wouldn't $350 cover basic health insurance?
Health insurance costs about $200-300 a month. I suppose if you ever
moved out of your mom's house and off her policy, you might know that.
Tell me Hugh, how much did WWII cost every man, woman and child in
today's dollars? Should we have not fought that one? How much did
the World Trade Centers and Pentagon cost, eh? Maybe those people
who died would've been insured...
- Lord Slime
Hugh McNeil
"Lord Slime"
> "Hugh McNeil" <
> > Published estimates suggest that the campaign in Iraq will cost ~$100
> > Billion in the first year. That's roughly $350 for every man, woman, and
> > child in the USA.
> >
> > Wouldn't $350 cover basic health insurance?
>
> Health insurance costs about $200-300 a month.
Is that comprehensive or basic?
I suppose if you ever
> moved out of your mom's house and off her policy, you might know that.
Living in Canada, our health care is socialized. One less thing to think
about when climbing, I guess.
> Tell me Hugh, how much did WWII cost every man, woman and child in
> today's dollars?
Quite a bit... and it seems you've bought the party line that Saddam's Iraq
is as dangerous as Hitler's Germany. Feeble brains are the best targets for
propaganda, I guess (remember that you now have a propaganda department
working to make sure that people like you are out there supporting an
unnecessary war).
Should we have not fought that one? How much did
> the World Trade Centers and Pentagon cost, eh?
Yes... the USofA was the victim of the most successful terrorist attack in
history, and I've seen enough here in Toronto to know that the threat
warrants a certain curtailing of liberties for the near future.
I just don't see the connection between Iraq, 9-11, and future terrorist
threats against the US and neither does anybody else. Well, actually, the
war in Iraq may prompt more acts, but this is a case of "you reap what you
sow."
Maybe those people
> who died would've been insured...
I'm betting that $350 would have covered comprehensive health insurance for
each of the Iraqi civilians that is ripped apart by an American or British
bomb.
Dave Schuller
>"Wiclimber"
>
>
>
>>i get your point though. just think what we could do with all the cash
>>
>>
>spent
>
>
>>on wars and foolish foriegn aid?
>>
>>makes me sick to think about it....
>>
>>
>
>Published estimates suggest that the campaign in Iraq will cost ~$100
>Billion in the first year. That's roughly $350 for every man, woman, and
>child in the USA.
>
>Wouldn't $350 cover basic health insurance?
>
>
>
>
$350 wouldn't even get you in the door.
Wallabee
"A.M." <adrian...@hotmail.com> spewed:
> What about the US and UN getting involved in the wars which are causing
> widespread poverty and AIDS?
>
War is causing AIDS?? I don't know where you come up with this shit,
Adrian, but I think you better brush up on your high school biology or
something.
Tim
Wallabee
"Wiclimber" <wicl...@aol.comdyno> wrote in message
news:20030321094246...@mb-ch.aol.com...
> killed
He may be killed but he's right.
Tim
Wallabee
"mike" <psyc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af358c8f.0303...@posting.google.com...
> Don't ya think that after years- even decades of PLO terrorism- it's
> kinda funny that England is backing the war on Iraq and hasn't
> declared war on Ireland? HMMMMMM could it be that it's not against
> terrorism?
The Palestine Liberation Organization? I think I better get an Individual
Retirement Account. That'll save me.
> Get with the program.
> Mike
Some of us are already with it.
Tim
A.M.
news:drHea.194491$sf5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Well... I think it's a valid extrapolation :
1. War causes widespread chaos and poverty
2. Poverty causes lawlessness and lack of institutions to limit birth
control and contraception
3. Rape in wartorn countries has led to severe cases of AIDS in Africa,
particularly Nigeria
It's unfortunate that we can't offer more than a few peace corps and
humanitarian aid to the DRC, rather than a large world-backed UN
peacekeeping mission.
Mr.T
> >
> >sure sucks that state after state is laying off teachers... not enough coin
> >in the coffers. Wonder where all that money is?
>
> thats a state budget thing, not federal.
Federal money goes to public schools, sorry you are wrong. And in
fact, as part of Bush's "no child left un-recruited, er I mean 'left
behind'" program, any school that balks at the new requirement to
give the pentagon access to all their students private info including
home phone numbers can have their federal funding cut.
mike
Naw, I certainly don't support terrorism. I don't support wars I
don't understand either. I believe that there's alot more to this
thing than we are all being led to believe by the media.
Mike
BenignVanilla
<snip>
> I just don't see the connection between Iraq, 9-11, and future terrorist
> threats against the US and neither does anybody else. Well, actually, the
> war in Iraq may prompt more acts, but this is a case of "you reap what you
> sow."
The US funded the regime in Afghanistan and look where that got us. We also
provided weapons, training, etc. to Iraq during the war with Iran. My bet,
is this is a cleanup operation, and we will be removing WMD...we know they
have them, because we probably gave them to Iraq. It's better politics to
fight this war, then allow Saddam to use our weapons on others. IMHO of
course.
BV.
Hardman Knott
> OMG........are you for real??!! NPR unbiased??!! Wholey crapola, I have
> some swamp-land down in Florida that I'd love to sell you! Interested?
>
> When's the last time you heard "both" sides of a story represented on
> NPR........they lean waaaaaaaaaaay left!
Of course I was being sarcastic -- NPR is about as unbiased
as the anarchists vomiting and defecating in SF streets right now;
(ironically depriving many of us our civil liberties in their
absurdly-misguided angst-driven antics -- including those who
might otherwise be sympathetic to their cause)
Bernie Ward and Ray Talyalfaro on late-night KGO, ect... The general
theme is that The USA sucks; everything that's wrong with the world
is always the fault of the Republican who happens to be in The
White House at the moment -- but especially Dubya Jr.;
Capitolism bad, Communisim good, Free Mumia, ect, ect.
What else is new?
Hardman Knott
mike
I just came to the realization that in one sense it's very similar to
the war on drugs.
Terrorism and drugs- is it possible to stop either one?
2 answers:
1. No.
2. Yes- just get rid of all the humans
A bit harsh, but if terrorism is a valid reason for waging war then it
seems to me that we just entered the beginning of the end. The reason
I say this is because, maybe not in me or you, but terrorism is a part
of people.
I guess revenge is too.
Mike
mike
x15x15
> Actually the federal government has quite a bit to do with the funding of
> education. And when the federal monies dry up, the state and local
> governments generally can't make up that deficiency...
Sure the feds do. But it is the states (speaking only for mine) that
mandate, over-mandate, categorize and WASTE the money. I still stand firm
that it is not a *federal* problem. CA is not a poor state (could it be one
of the richest?), yet the money spent on the STUDENTS is no where near the
top!!! I am about to enter the administrative side of education and too
often I must keep my conservative mouth shut.
x15x15
there goes my longggggg vacations
Guillaume Dargaud
Well, there 's some surprising difference between online rec.climbers and
ontherocks rec.climbers... Lord Slime with his pussycat voice, MadDog who's
a good husband+father and some more like that, so I'd be curious to meet the
real Batten, is all. And in the few private emails I've exchanged with him,
he never trolled me...
--
Guillaume Dargaud
Colorado State University
http://www.gdargaud.net/
"It is rare to find learned men who are clean, do not stink and have a
sense of humour." - Montesquieu (1689-1755) about Leibniz (1646-1716).
Dave Schuller
>
>Living in Canada, our health care is socialized. One less thing to think
>about when climbing, I guess.
>
comrade? I get to keep most of my paycheck.
>
>
>Yes... the USofA was the victim of the most successful terrorist attack in
>history, and I've seen enough here in Toronto to know that the threat
>warrants a certain curtailing of liberties for the near future.
>
What does that mean?
>
> I just don't see the connection between Iraq, 9-11, and future terrorist
>threats against the US and neither does anybody else. Well, actually, the
>war in Iraq may prompt more acts, but this is a case of "you reap what you
>sow."
>
What? You're hysterical. Reminds me of the rhetoric of communist
regimes. First you deny reality, then claim that your opinion is the
majority opinion then blame the USA for all your problems.
>
> Maybe those people
>
>
>>who died would've been insured...
>>
>>
>
>I'm betting that $350 would have covered comprehensive health insurance for
>each of the Iraqi civilians that is ripped apart by an American or British
>bomb.
>
>
>
>
Actually Iraq is technically socialist (much like Canada) . They get
free medical care when their leader gasses or tortures them.
Dave Schuller
>"Wallabee" <t...@dtsnetworking.com> wrote in message
>news:drHea.194491$sf5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
>
>
>>"A.M." <adrian...@hotmail.com> spewed:
>>
>>
>>
>>>What about the US and UN getting involved in the wars which are causing
>>>widespread poverty and AIDS?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>War is causing AIDS?? I don't know where you come up with this shit,
>>Adrian, but I think you better brush up on your high school biology or
>>something.
>>
>>
>
>Well... I think it's a valid extrapolation :
>
>1. War causes widespread chaos and poverty
>2. Poverty causes lawlessness and lack of institutions to limit birth
>control and contraception
>3. Rape in wartorn countries has led to severe cases of AIDS in Africa,
>particularly Nigeria
>
That is the all time, granddaddy, Evil Kenival over the Grand Canyon on
a rocket bike jump of logic.
Thanks for the laugh.
Bill Zaumen
<fce...@attbi.com> wrote:
> Hmm, Poor Hans Blix sounded dumbfounded this morning when he heard about the
> missles being lobbed into Kuwait this morning. He said the Iraqis stated
> they did not have those anymore. Guess he was lied to.
While I guess they shot off some missiles, time will tell if these
were ones with a long enough range to be banned under U.N. resolutions.
Unfortunately, given the Bush Regime's previous claims, it has a real
incentive to lie.
During the previous Gulf War, the other Bush administration trotted
out someone from Kuwait who told Congress how the Iraqis were killing
babies in hospitals by taking them off respirators. Turns out this
witness was the daughter of the ambassador, living in Washington,
and saying what she was told to say. This "crime" was pure propaganda,
designed to boost support for a war.
And that's the trouble with demonizing the enemy: when you do that,
your side loses credibility as well.
As to the title of the thread, Petzl will be very happy: everyone will
get over this anti-French nonsense in a few weeks and Petzl will reap
a windfall as people who threw the gear out have to buy replacement
gear :-).
--
Due to the level of spam, I no longer accept email, except
from a few select individuals.
JKVawter
> It's funny how people like you agree how bad Saddam is but are unwilling to
> support our action against it. Honestly, how long would it take for this "world
> tribunal" to act??!! By the time that happens, probably 2-3 years(or more), maybe
> your family might come down with a nasty case of the Anthrax?? Maybe? Could
> happen? I say fuckin A yes it "could" happen. How much is that worth to you?
> How much is your safety worth?
> So maybe instead of thinking so ideological, you could think a bit more practical
> and pull you head out of the sand.
> No solution is perfect..............
>
> Now go out and support your country!
He is supporting his country. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism for a
non-combatant citizen.
JKVawter
BTW, with reservations, I support the current military action.
Mad Dog
>BTW, with reservations, I support the current military action.
Which city and hotel? Please email photos and say "Hi" to Saddam for me. Or
at least say "Saddam" to hi for me.
Bill Zaumen
<jkvawt...@earthlink.net> wrote:
In addition, the anthrax was traced to a U.S. government lab---what is
not known is which of the several people who had access to it was responsible.
Recently, someone on this thread ridiculed Hans Blix for being surprised
that the Iraqis "used" banned missles. This morning I read a press
report that the statements about these missiles were false: the ones the
Iraqis fired were legal under the U.N. resolutions, due to the missiles'
limited range. Oddly, "How much is your safety worth?" seems like a
strang question to post to a climbing newsgroup, since the threshold of
what would be an acceptable risk is higher than that of the general
population.
There have been cases in the recent past (just look up references to
"The Pentagon Papers" or Danniel Elsberg (sp?), where we learned how
the government was lying to us about the conduct and status of a war
(the enemy knew; it was just the American public that was kept in the
dark), or the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution," where a U.S. administration
used flakey data to justify the start of a war. Given that history, a
healthy level of skepticism is a good thing to have, and it should be
encouraged.
Bill
Michael A. Riches
wrote on 3/21/03 7:26 AM:
> You say Sadaam needs to be dealt with, but offer no plan to do so.
Uhhh, I think I did offer a plan, granted it was a bit too complicated for
you to follow. But the good part, for you that is, is it would, more than
likely, end up with military action....I know that kinda shit turns you on
and all.
> In your
> fantasy world Sadaam would turn himself over to authorities and no one would
> get hurt. Sounds good to me, but I know that would never happen no matter
> how hard I squeeze my eyes shut and wish. Bush's campaign on terror seems
> delusional to you. I know it's hard for you to get your mind around the
> concept, but unfortunately we can't wait for you to get up to speed. So get
> to the rear and just watch and learn for now.
Copy that...seems pretty easy for somebody like you to sit on the sidelines
screaming "Kill the Fuck, Kill the Fuck...". Why don't you step up to bat
and go after him with the rest of the troops...???
> I'm not worried about Storm Troopers knocking my door down. I think you need
> to get out of your room, go climbing and try to shake off that paranoia you
> seem to have let yourself sink into.
Yawn....
Ratzzz...
Michael A. Riches
dave...@FSPAM.excite.com wrote on 3/21/03 7:56 AM:
> So maybe instead of thinking so ideological, you could think a bit more
> practical
> and pull you head out of the sand.
> No solution is perfect..............
Soooo, let me get this straight..."No solution is perfect..." so let's
confirm to the entire Muslim World that we are every bit as evil and
despicable as their leaders have been saying for the last decade or
two...???
Sounds reasonable to me, maybe we should shake up the entire region, kill
every King, Prince and yokel that has ever committed a crime against their
minions and put our own people in place (so they can carry on the grand
tradition of their predecessors, only with our blessings...).
> By the time that happens, probably 2-3 years(or more), maybe
> your family might come down with a nasty case of the Anthrax??
Yeah, right....the anthrax was sent by one of our own people, don't kid
yourself...
> It's funny how people like you agree how bad Saddam is but are unwilling to
> support our action against it.
I don't support Vigilantism...never have and never will, no matter who wants
it and no matter how many lackeys support it...
Ratzzz...
Michael A. Riches
jkvawt...@earthlink.net wrote on 3/22/03 11:58 AM:
> He is supporting his country. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism for a
> non-combatant citizen.
Yeah right...I did two tours in Nam and "Do" support our troops, I just
don't support the asshole that is calling the shots...
>
> JKVawter
>
> BTW, with reservations, I support the current military action.
Ratzzz...
Michael A. Riches
mtme...@fastmail.fm wrote on 3/21/03 8:21 PM:
I never said it was a problem, just that they do help with the funding.
Utah, on the other hand is typical of the "take the money and run" type of
state governments. We have the level of education to prove it, I think we
ranked 49th or 50th on the scale last year...(and they want to cut even
"More" out of the education budget...)
Ratzzz...
Fred Ernst
service.
I see Sadaam, his sons and the regime as a tactical target in the war
against terrorism. I beleieve the region will be a better place after
they're gone. I believe we're bringing hope to the Iraqui citizenzry.
Hugh McNeil
"Dave Schuller"
> >Living in Canada, our health care is socialized. One less thing to think
> >about when climbing, I guess.
> >
> Does socialism suit you? Let the government do the thinking for you?
That's why democracies elect governments, dimwit. BTW... you do realise that
the public school system you went through is "socialist?" Yes Dave, your
parents didn't pay your freight, your neighbours did.
> comrade? I get to keep most of my paycheck.
Poor Dave, can't afford health care eh? Was Slime right when he said it cost
>$3000 per annum? Come to Canada... we'll take care of you. BTW, happy to
pay your $350 share of the war's cost?
> >Yes... the USofA was the victim of the most successful terrorist attack
in
> >history, and I've seen enough here in Toronto to know that the threat
> >warrants a certain curtailing of liberties for the near future.
> >
> What does that mean?
It wasn't a very complex statement, Dave.
> > I just don't see the connection between Iraq, 9-11, and future terrorist
> >threats against the US and neither does anybody else. Well, actually, the
> >war in Iraq may prompt more acts, but this is a case of "you reap what
you
> >sow."
> >
> What? You're hysterical. Reminds me of the rhetoric of communist
> regimes. First you deny reality, then claim that your opinion is the
> majority opinion then blame the USA for all your problems.
Actually the rest of the world is blaming the USA for YOUR problems. To a
certain degree. And as for a dose of reality, you actually should read
Slime's pick "The Threatening Storm." The author clearly makes the arguement
that Iraq under Saddam IS NOT a terrorist threat to the US of A. He is too
much of a self-preservationist to align himself with the ilk of Osama.
Ben Boykin
>>>
>Is that comprehensive or basic?
>
>>> I suppose if you ever
>>>moved out of your mom's house and off her policy, you might know that.
>
>Living in Canada, our health care is socialized. One less thing to think
>about when climbing, I guess.
>
Yeesh. Show 'em the money you'll save for that Canadian socialized healthcare!
"Can't go climbin yet. My feet are so swollen from this congestive heart
failure... not my turn for a bypass yet. Too bad I've had another heart attack
whilst I was in line..."
'Course, I could be all wet about that example. I pay about $400/month for
Health & Dental insurance... here in the USA...
Okay, back to the topic:
---------b
Remove NODISCO to email
Ed Seedhouse
>Just a thought for the day on socialized medicine:
>Yeesh. Show 'em the money you'll save for that Canadian socialized healthcare!
>"Can't go climbin yet. My feet are so swollen from this congestive heart
>failure... not my turn for a bypass yet. Too bad I've had another heart attack
>whilst I was in line..."
>'Course, I could be all wet about that example.
Around 100 feet down and sinking, as a matter of fact. Your "facts"
are just flat out wrong. Case in point, my mother just came down with
an episode of severe CHF. She was taken to hospital in an ambulance
and admitted to Emergency instantly. She was admitted to the hospital
a couple of hours later. Her bill for this will be zero dollars and
zero cents. She is getting state of the art treatment.
>I pay about $400/month for Health & Dental insurance... here in the USA...
Canada has a healthier population with better access to medical advice
and help, and pays a good deal less per capita on health care than the
USA does. Yes, there are problems. If you are not an emergency case
you might have to wait longer than a rich person waits in the USA for
your treatment. You'll at least get it, which you won't in the USA if
you don't happen to be rich unless you can come up with the money by,
say, mortgaging your house, or take charity.
My dad hat to wait a lot longer than we would have liked for his
bypass surgery, that's true. On the other hand a man of his income
would have waited forever in the USA. Our system isn't perfect it's
just, from our viewpoint, better than yours.
If I have a medical problem I can see a doctor within an hour and pay
nothing for it. Of course I have already paid in advance through my
taxes. If I don't need the care I am happy to see my money spent on
those who do, with the knowledge that when and if I need it it will be
there.
I am no socialist, but on the other hand calling me "socialist"
doesn't scare me. Social programs work in some cases and don't work
in others. Medicare is one of them that works, by any objective
measure.
If you don't like that, feel free not to have it. It's your country
and you can do what you like. So can we, and we are in this case.
If you are totally opposed to the evil socialism and all it's works I
hope you will be consistent and not use the interstate highway system
in your country, because of course it was built by the government. A
pure example of socialism at work.
Ed Seedhouse
"I'm on my second cup of coffee
and I still can't face the day"
Ben Boykin
>doesn't scare me.
Whoa. I wasn't taking my thought for the day as far as <i>that</i>. Works for
you.
My PHO is also a form of socialism which sometimes works, and is sometimes
detrimental. However, as my Canadian experience is most likely outdated, I was
generalizing about something which was actually supported in the case of your
father's bypass.
<b>The Point is</b>, in waiting for that bypass, one stands a greater chance in
extending the damage to one's health (i.e. CHF). It happens here too, but I
think for other reasons. I was <i>generalizing</i>...
There are admittedly iniquities, as well (remember Micky Mantle's 2nd liver?!).
This was actually a "hear,hear" in Slime's short post, didn't mean to draw the
thread off this way...
x15x15
news:b3sr7vkgm8eu2uhrs...@4ax.com...
This is like comparing apples and oranges. I have used canada's health
system as an outsider and I was pleased. I am doubly pleased with USA's
health system too. But I often ponder what would happen to Canada's fine
health care if they were serving a population closer to USA's. Canada takes
care of approximately 31.5 million people. USA takes care of 290.5 million
people (as well as medical $$$$ and aid sent throughout the world)!!! Say
what you want, I am glad to live where the BEST medical care is available.
> If you are totally opposed to the evil socialism and all it's works I
> hope you will be consistent and not use the interstate highway system
> in your country, because of course it was built by the government. A
> pure example of socialism at work.
I try do my part. As a Libertarian I wish to pay as I play/ use. And I try
to elect those that hold the same views. Maybe one day I won't be a
hypocrite and I won't have to use government highways. Maybe one day NO-ONE
will come to the USA for the BEST medical care available too. Maybe one
day..........
x15x15
Bill Zaumen
<fce...@attbi.com> wrote:
> I see Sadaam, his sons and the regime as a tactical target in the war
> against terrorism. I beleieve the region will be a better place after
> they're gone. I believe we're bringing hope to the Iraqui citizenzry.
I'll believe it when I see it. It simply isn't clear that Iraqis will
be better off: we could end up installing a dictator that is even
worse. Look what happened to Chile after we helped boot out a
socialist: they ended up living under a fascist.
mike
> I try do my part. As a Libertarian I wish to pay as I play/ use. And I try
> to elect those that hold the same views. Maybe one day I won't be a
> hypocrite and I won't have to use government highways. Maybe one day NO-ONE
> will come to the USA for the BEST medical care available too. Maybe one
> day..........
>
> x15x15
I hear people in the states, quite often, with the argument that
you've got the BEST medical care available... Fill me in... I thought
we had it pretty good up here in Canada. What makes yours better?
Mike
Ed Seedhouse
>> I try do my part. As a Libertarian I wish to pay as I play/ use. And I try
>> to elect those that hold the same views. Maybe one day I won't be a
>> hypocrite and I won't have to use government highways. Maybe one day NO-ONE
>> will come to the USA for the BEST medical care available too. Maybe one
>> day..........
>I hear people in the states, quite often, with the argument that
>you've got the BEST medical care available... Fill me in... I thought
>we had it pretty good up here in Canada. What makes yours better?
Oh I think at it's very best, health care in the USA is probably ahead
of our best in Canada. Trouble is, if you ain't rich can you get it?
Well if you can get elected (or appointed) President, perhaps! Up
here I know that I'll get care that is pretty well as good as the
richest man in the country will get. Of course I can't afford to go
the USA to get the very absolute best whereas the rich Canadian can
and they sometimes do.
Dave Schuller
>"Dave Schuller"
>
>
>
>>>Living in Canada, our health care is socialized. One less thing to think
>>>about when climbing, I guess.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Does socialism suit you? Let the government do the thinking for you?
>>
>>
>
>That's why democracies elect governments, dimwit. BTW... you do realise that
>the public school system you went through is "socialist?" Yes Dave, your
>parents didn't pay your freight, your neighbours did.
>
Democracies elect governments to protect the citizenry, not do my
thinking for me. I actually went to private school for most of it. My
parents footed my bill plus that of those whom went to public school.
Then paid for my university degree myself. Our system allowed me to do
so. Now I have a job, own a business and pay taxes so that others
might do what I did. Don't use me as an example, you know nothing of my
background. It doesn't bolster your argument ...it exposes you for the
ignoramus that you are.
>
>
>
>>comrade? I get to keep most of my paycheck.
>>
>>
>
>Poor Dave, can't afford health care eh? Was Slime right when he said it cost
>
>
>>$3000 per annum? Come to Canada... we'll take care of you. BTW, happy to
>>
>>
>pay your $350 share of the war's cost?
>
I actually pay for my own health insurance. Go to Canada for health
care?! No thanks I can't bear standing in line...its communistic. Yes
Im happy to pay $350 for the wars cost. I may even pay a greater cost
if my brother in the 101st airborne div. gets killed. A risk he takes
because he understands the price of liberty.
>
>
>
>>>Yes... the USofA was the victim of the most successful terrorist attack
>>>
>>>
>in
>
>
>>>history, and I've seen enough here in Toronto to know that the threat
>>>warrants a certain curtailing of liberties for the near future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What does that mean?
>>
>>
>
>
>It wasn't a very complex statement, Dave.
>
I'll be more concise. What happened in Toronto? Who's liberties should
be curtailed? You are right it wasn't complex, it was unintelligible.
>
>
>
>
>>>I just don't see the connection between Iraq, 9-11, and future terrorist
>>>threats against the US and neither does anybody else. Well, actually, the
>>>war in Iraq may prompt more acts, but this is a case of "you reap what
>>>
>>>
>you
>
>
>>>sow."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What? You're hysterical. Reminds me of the rhetoric of communist
>>regimes. First you deny reality, then claim that your opinion is the
>>majority opinion then blame the USA for all your problems.
>>
>>
>
>Actually the rest of the world is blaming the USA for YOUR problems. To a
>certain degree. And as for a dose of reality, you actually should read
>Slime's pick "The Threatening Storm." The author clearly makes the argument
>that Iraq under Saddam IS NOT a terrorist threat to the US of A. He is too
>much of a self-preservationist to align himself with the ilk of Osama.
>
>
>
>
We are happy to go and take care of our problems. Especially if they
are our fault. We did not finish the job in '91 because we thought we
could contain him. We probably could if France, Russia, and Germany
would stop selling Iraq weapons tech. As for Slime's book of the
month pick, it's on the list as soon as I finish "Theodore Rex". By the
way, If the author of the "Threatening Storm" claims that Saddam is not
a threat...fine but that opinion puts him in the minority of opinions in
this country. In our democracy , we have decided that he is a threat
and that is all that matters.
A few facts...There are about 285 million folks in the US. There are
about 31.5 million in Canada. There are about 37 million in the EU
economic zone. So, even if 100% of Canadians and 100% of EU Economic
zone folks opinions were against war in Iraq, would be trumped by the...
well hell even if only half of us thought we should go to war (current
polls show 60 to 76 % support in the US) it would be more than the EU
and Canada combined. Remember that the coalition now numbers more than
the coalition during the first Gulf War. How 's that for democracy?
Hugh, I don't disagree that there are a lot of unknowns in this war, but
I and the majority of Americans are unwilling to let a another 9-11
happen. The American government has been accused of failing to "connect
the dots" when we had intel. regarding terror attacks, all we are
trying to do is connect those dots. You and the citizens of Canada may
thank us some day for dealing with this problem. You also might not,
appreciation of our neighbors is not why we act. We might appreciate
you more if your government would do more to prevent those terrorist
from coming to my county through yours.
Now, lets talk about respect.
I respect your opinion and your right to it. I did not call you names
or question your ancestry. You are a big man from behind your computer.
Face to face I challenge your bravado and your intelligence. Give us
some facts on your opinion or go to hell. E-mail me personally and I'll
argue fact and logic to the best of my ability but I will not belittle
you in public. I would like the same consideration in return.
Dave