a lost skill?
agedest
to get home, but wanted to get in one more route before leaving. I
showed them one they had not done, they liked the looks of it, they
got their gear and we hiked up to the rim for him to rig anchors to
top-rope. He rappelled down, she rappelled down, he climbed up and
stayed up. She climbed up, they packed up, and left for home.
No one does that there. What it takes, besides rappelling, is top
belay. I've seen him do that at other routes. He does multi-pitch
gear, so of course he does that. But I've seen top belay at that
location only three other times. In two other cases, the men climbed
in Europe. Top belay is in all the books I've seen. Although usually
included only with multi-pitch gear practices, the recent book /From
Gym to Crag/ assumes top belay as the given method, and explains
bottom belay only as part of top-roping as only a way-station to gear
climbing.
Where I see climbing, it is mostly top-rope, even on the Sport routes
if there is any way to manage it. Only a few rappel down after
setting the rope, and only those few visitors ever top belay. I'm
trying to figure out why not, or why. Top belay offers a poor view of
the climber; one other case I thought was seriously hazardous for
that. You do get to sit, in the cases I've seen, but cannot lounge
around as most do at the base like they'd set up camp. Top belay
might offer some other convenience and efficiency, as it did for the
couple leaving.
But if you don't have to, is there anything better about top belay, so
that more would try to do if only they knew about it and saw people
doing it?
-
David Kastrup
> Where I see climbing, it is mostly top-rope, even on the Sport routes
> if there is any way to manage it. Only a few rappel down after
> setting the rope, and only those few visitors ever top belay. I'm
> trying to figure out why not, or why. Top belay offers a poor view of
> the climber;
That depends on the situation. If there is a crux overhang close to the
top, naturally the top belay offers much much much more view and support
and much less rope stretch.
> one other case I thought was seriously hazardous for that. You do get
> to sit, in the cases I've seen, but cannot lounge around as most do at
> the base like they'd set up camp. Top belay might offer some other
> convenience and efficiency, as it did for the couple leaving.
>
> But if you don't have to, is there anything better about top belay, so
> that more would try to do if only they knew about it and saw people
> doing it?
Rope stretch. Eye contact for crux close to the top. A supervised
anchor. With double ropes, a top rope is a cause for trouble (to say
the least) because of the knot.
Oh, and of course, rope wear. Top roping puts much more wear on the
rope than leading or rappelling. And that's even when the rope is
running optimally.
I have had situations where I chose a top belay because setting up a
toprope would have been awkward, or it would have been hard to avoid the
rope running over an edge.
Of course, it's not like you can avoid a top belay on multipitch routes
(which exist as sport routes, too) anyway, so it is not like a typical
outdoor climber could really avoid being familiar with them.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^,,^
if i could have top roped astroman i certainly would have. if i could
have had a tusted belay from above that would have been even better.
same for pretty much any route i have ever done. ooh, top roping the
nose (or a rope dropped all the way from above) - how sweet would that
be?
the only reason i lead anything, ever, is that someone has to. that
and it's poor form to make your pal do it all. though if i could get
away with it, and still sleep at night, i surely would.
my idea of the ideal climb would be one that receded into the earth
precisely as fast as i climbed. imagine that. imagine climbing the
entire nose and never being more than 4 feet above the ground [gorund
being clean soft sand]. wouldn't that be swell? speaking for just me
(as if i could ever speak for more) i'd posolutely love it. i'd
fookin' wet myself.yeah, i'd follow everything forever if i could, in
good conscience. better yet, i'd just top rope it (with 5 slings and
3 locking biners). or better still have a trusted friend at the last
belay.
~~~
ah, but alas, it's just ain't like that. at least not today.
someday, perhaps, there will be 20kn rated rope the size (and weight)
of 6lb test monofiliment. or anti-grav boots. or a crash pad the
size of, well like utah.
but today, there simply isn't.
"Maybe someday, Maybe in Utah" [last lines of 'Raising Arizona' - if
memory serves]
~~~
so, today, running it out 40 or 50 feet of 'eek, way marginal' simply
sucks (so says i). it's scary and you (ok, i) sweat a lot and ooh
that sick acid puke taste in your mouth pretty much ruins everything.
what sane soul would volunteer for that, at least more than once.
sheesh.
so yeah, a top rope is just fine. a belay from the top even better.
you get to get all lost in your own finger tips and toes without
risking your own precious neck. the downside is that you are limited
to what, like 70 metres or so. and, alas, to date, it still takes me
a little more than that to just completely disappear into my own
fingertips and toes. but when the day comes, well, "Oh Happy
Day"...
be here, now...
^,,^
David Kastrup
> my idea of the ideal climb would be one that receded into the earth
> precisely as fast as i climbed. imagine that.
There is the equivalent of running belts for climbers.
> imagine climbing the entire nose and never being more than 4 feet
> above the ground [gorund being clean soft sand]. wouldn't that be
> swell? speaking for just me (as if i could ever speak for more) i'd
> posolutely love it. i'd fookin' wet myself.
You get something like that in a gym. It is not that exciting.
Hal Murray
>so, today, running it out 40 or 50 feet of 'eek, way marginal' simply
>sucks (so says i). it's scary and you (ok, i) sweat a lot and ooh
>that sick acid puke taste in your mouth pretty much ruins everything.
>what sane soul would volunteer for that, at least more than once.
>sheesh.
Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/07-jul-24-ClarenceKing/large/140.html
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
^,,^
> You get something like that in a gym.
rock gyms are like (more than like) dayglo plastic bolted to sheets of
particleboard -- a short string of muscle tears all in a row. blah.
the magic of actual rock is that it offers endless options, which is
to my mind the very joy of it. i am famous for turning 5.11's into
5'8's by finding something without chalk all over it. though, to be
fair, i am equally famous for turning 5.8's into 5,11's by not finding
something with chalk all over it.
> It is not that exciting.
exiting is vastly over rated.
this, if nothing else, i have learned in my dope existance. it is the
one thing worth remembering that i actually learned back when i was
dumb enough to guide. my typical "client set" was some big narly guy
on a flathead [think: harley] with this teeny tiny skinny teenaged
betty in tow. [fwiw, i too was "teeny tiny skinny teenager' at the
time]. we'd start at the de facto top rope cliff and i'd keep saying
"feet! feet! look where you are going -- you can easily walk up this
without a single pullup" -- and one of them would listen and the other
would of course do the two required (for the footless) pullups then
mock the living poop out of me for being skinnier than their
grandmother (likely true).
then we'd end up on the 5 or 6 pitch (depending on how stupid they
actually proved to be) route and - EVERY FOOKIN TIME (when they
arrived on a harley, which was far too often) - it played out the
same. the teeny tiny skinny teenaged betty would do just fine, while
the (increasingly) angry harley dude would flame out after their 15th
or 16th attempt at a pullup (on 5.6 -- max). at which point i had to
lower them both off. and, well, what are the chances i got a tip?
(ever?)
my best guess is that what i witnessed is one person trying to prove
to the other person than they were more of a person. that or perhaps
they both just intended to scare the both of themselves to death.
pretty much all of the people i know who have genuinely scared
themselves to death are adamant never to do _that_ again. sheesh.
if nothing else, this is what i learned, for sure: exiting is vastly
over rated. if you want exiting, jump out of a plane with a parachute
-- trust your life to someone else's technology, that and wait for
that terrible moment when you find out if your fancy physics chute
actually works. i've done that, once. never, never, again.
or, better yet, jump out of a plane without a chute. if that doesn't
work, well, you'll still get my point. all at once.
~~~
and our brother Hal wrote, in part:
>> Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
Precisely. Hal, you are surely as smart as you look.
you all be well,
^,,^
David Kastrup
> our brother David Kastrup wrote, in part:
>> You get something like that in a gym.
>
> rock gyms are like (more than like) dayglo plastic bolted to sheets of
> particleboard -- a short string of muscle tears all in a row. blah.
> the magic of actual rock is that it offers endless options, which is
> to my mind the very joy of it. i am famous for turning 5.11's into
> 5'8's by finding something without chalk all over it. though, to be
> fair, i am equally famous for turning 5.8's into 5,11's by not finding
> something with chalk all over it.
There is plenty of leeway for that in a good gym, and in a bad gym, you
can still define your own problems. Or both.
>> It is not that exciting.
>
> exiting is vastly over rated.
Oh, nobody wants to exit for sure.
> this, if nothing else, i have learned in my dope existance. it is the
> one thing worth remembering that i actually learned back when i was
> dumb enough to guide. my typical "client set" was some big narly guy
> on a flathead [think: harley] with this teeny tiny skinny teenaged
> betty in tow.
No need to read on. We all know what happens.
> my best guess is that what i witnessed is one person trying to prove
> to the other person than they were more of a person.
It's just a gender cliché probably having to do with "I can protect you
in times of need": the man is the stronger one and accustomed to looking
down benevolently on the physical efforts of his companion.
> that or perhaps they both just intended to scare the both of
> themselves to death. pretty much all of the people i know who have
> genuinely scared themselves to death are adamant never to do _that_
> again. sheesh.
In particular when their female partner did not take it as badly. Shows
her bad judgment or something. Must be protected from it.
> if nothing else, this is what i learned, for sure: exiting is vastly
> over rated. if you want exiting, jump out of a plane with a parachute
> -- trust your life to someone else's technology, that and wait for
> that terrible moment when you find out if your fancy physics chute
> actually works. i've done that, once. never, never, again.
>
> or, better yet, jump out of a plane without a chute. if that doesn't
> work, well, you'll still get my point. all at once.
Certainly sounds like a viable exit strategy.
> and our brother Hal wrote, in part:
>
>>> Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
>
> Precisely. Hal, you are surely as smart as you look.
But then the staircase is boring.
Thor Lancelot Simon
^,,^ <pipwasj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>my idea of the ideal climb would be one that receded into the earth
>precisely as fast as i climbed. imagine that. imagine climbing the
>entire nose and never being more than 4 feet above the ground [gorund
>being clean soft sand].
We had a "El Cap - Nose" profile in one of the firmware packages for
the Ascent Rock, back when Ascent was still in business and I (briefly)
worked on the thing. Supposedly it was pretty accurate, on the angles
and distances only obviously. At the default speed it was something like
a 6 hour climb.
It was more fun way overhung though. Load it up with big holds, crank
the motor down to low speed and the angle over to 80 degrees and
climb the world's only 200 foot roof. It's kind of amazing to me now
to think that in fact even with 5.8 kinda holds on it I could do that
at all...
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
lekker
> In article <3bc71ad0-3f31-4f25...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> ^,,^ <pipwasj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> my idea of the ideal climb would be one that receded into the earth
>> precisely as fast as i climbed. imagine that. imagine climbing the
>> entire nose and never being more than 4 feet above the ground [gorund
>> being clean soft sand].
>
> We had a "El Cap - Nose" profile in one of the firmware packages for
> the Ascent Rock, back when Ascent was still in business and I (briefly)
> worked on the thing. Supposedly it was pretty accurate, on the angles
> and distances only obviously. At the default speed it was something like
> a 6 hour climb.
>
> It was more fun way overhung though. Load it up with big holds, crank
> the motor down to low speed and the angle over to 80 degrees and
> climb the world's only 200 foot roof. It's kind of amazing to me now
> to think that in fact even with 5.8 kinda holds on it I could do that
> at all...
>
Okay, 80 degrees doesn't seem "completely inverted" but I have to like a
company that deals in rock walls, coconut trees, and go karts. Their new
product is called Rope Aphobia (tr) and a look at the picture of it will
probably make you laugh, though like me you will probably have no idea
what it is for.
The picture of the Ascent Rock (1 or 2 person) suggests that a kind of
amazing imagination would be needed to feel like you were climbing El
Cap regardless of angles and distances.
> The Rock is a simulated, two-person climbing wall that tilts,
> spins, and rotates to mimic real mountain climbing. The Rock
> doesn't stop moving unless you want it to. You never have to
> get off the Rock to change pitch or difficulty. And it's the
> only system that allows you to practice completely inverted climbing.
Climbing has evolved and maybe rebelled since I first laced up the
Kletterschue, but it could be finding Earth again and returning a lost
skill to mankind:
> These trees are the best themed interactive attraction that you
> can buy today! The Award winning Coconut Tree Climb has been an
> instant winner. From indoor to outdoor to mobile units this
> climbing product is great for all events. This product is a
> proven winner out of the gate. With 2 or 3 climbing trees, all
> with the proven Safety Auto-Belay Generation 4 Safety system you
> can start making money.
^,,^
>> exiting is vastly over rated.
our brother David K wrote, in part:
> Oh, nobody wants to exit for sure.
exCiting. that's the word i was looking for. sheesh, thud.
dyslexics untie! (did i spell even that right? -- ask Chloe (aka
Chiloe) sheesh. thud.
what i think i was trying to say was something on the order of how the
"near death" "climbing experience" really makes what little butt i
have droop. blah. all of us who have climbed for more than a weekend
know what i am talking about, so i'll avoid the 17 paragraphs of
detailed definition (unless someone is fool enough to expressly ask
otherwise).
~~~
you mention brother Hal's line:
>>> Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
but you omitted the rather definitive photo Hal associated with it:
>>> http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/07-jul-24-ClarenceKing/large/140.html
for the latter surely defines the former.
late last summer i did the swiss arrete on mt sills, not all that far
from Hal's clarence king photo. it was stupendous. oh what a day,
what a place. it was mostly class 4, with just a few sphincter
tightners in the 5.6 range (most just stepping over/around the crest
while hoping there was as much for the blind toes as the solid
fingers).
~~~
most (ok, not all) of my best climbing memories are surely sub-5.9
many are like class 4 or at most 5.2 and most were done alone -- so
you'll have to take my word for it.
have i been scared shitless on climbs? d'yaa think? but if those
moments were the centerpiece of the experience for me, would i have
devoted so much of my life to it? while the evidence might scream
otherwise, i am not a complete moron.
(i'm more like a semi-moron. e_x_c_i_t_i_n_g ...got it. ack,
sheesh.)
canis fidelus est,
^,,^
kellie
> re:
>
>
> late last summer i did the swiss arrete on mt sills, not all that far
> from Hal's clarence king photo. it was stupendous. oh what a day,
> what a place. it was mostly class 4, with just a few sphincter
> tightners in the 5.6 range (most just stepping over/around the crest
> while hoping there was as much for the blind toes as the solid
> fingers).
>
That's a great climb. I remember pulling on a piece of gear (oh the
shame!) and a rapidly-approaching thunderstorm when we topped out.
After that we hung out in a tent for three days in the rain waiting to
do Moon Goddess Arete but it just kept on raining so we finally gave
up and went back to town. I still haven't done Moon Goddess Arete.
> most (ok, not all) of my best climbing memories are surely sub-5.9
> many are like class 4 or at most 5.2 and most were done alone -- so
> you'll have to take my word for it.
>
One of my favorite climbing memories is of the East Ridge of Wolf's
Head in the Winds; a crazy easy but oh so airy and surreal route in a
stunning location. I remember weaving around towers and squeezing
through slots and traversing across horizontal cracks with big
exposure -- a great day.
I also remember that we were caught by a party of three guys from
Oregon and that my partner later told me that as he was waiting for me
to set up a belay, he asked one of them, "Can you see my partner?" and
the reply came back, "No, but I heard her say fuck a couple of
times." hah.
Thor Lancelot Simon
lekker <lek...@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>>
>> It was more fun way overhung though. Load it up with big holds, crank
>> the motor down to low speed and the angle over to 80 degrees and
>> climb the world's only 200 foot roof. It's kind of amazing to me now
>> to think that in fact even with 5.8 kinda holds on it I could do that
>> at all...
>>
>
>Okay, 80 degrees doesn't seem "completely inverted" but I have to like a
>company that deals in rock walls, coconut trees, and go karts.
Ascent's dead! That, I am well sure of. I wonder who bought the product
from them (and I wonder if I can now get spare parts for the one we gave
to the local college -- but it's one of the prototypes, so I guess it's
doubtful, since many of the parts are not what went in the version that
was sold...).
The angle of the thing's measured from straight-up-and-down, so 90
degrees is a flat horizontal roof climb. The mechanical package will
in fact go a few degrees beyond that (though I think the firmware on
all the ones that were sold doesn't do so unless deliberately mis-adjusted)
so I guess you can in fact get "inverted" for some value of inverted
though probably not how the ad copy now reads...
No amount of imagination would make climbing on the Rock anything like
climbing on Yosemite granite, of course. But for skills practice and
an aerobic workout, it was really not bad -- miles beyond any of the
other "treadwall" type systems. Some of that was the fancy mechanical
and electronics package (nothing else had electric propulsion and tilt,
much less programmable ones so you could say "10 minutes straight up
and down, please, then 3 minutes flat back, then...") and some of it
was just the sheer size of the thing: it's big and wide enough to
actually set nontrivial sequences of moves that go directions other
than straight up and down, and to put enough holds on it to let you
mix it up as you climb so you don't do the exact same move over and
over again for hundreds or thousands of feet. I also actually know of
someone who bolted three sets of campus rungs to the thing and...
well, ouch.
For some stupid reason they never really marketed them to climbing
gyms, which would seem like the obvious core market. I see whoever
owns the product now has made that mistake even worse.
Eugene Miya
>>sucks (so says i). it's scary and you (ok, i) sweat a lot and ooh
>>that sick acid puke taste in your mouth pretty much ruins everything.
>>what sane soul would volunteer for that, at least more than once.
>>sheesh.
In article <2I-dnSYytoyZJJ7V...@megapath.net>,
Hal Murray <hal-u...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> wrote:
>Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
Ah, those days when one could resort to aid.....
--
Hal Murray
>Ah, those days when one could resort to aid.....
If the climbs you do are easy enough, you don't need
to resort to aid.
Eugene Miya
^,,^ <pipwasj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>you mention brother Hal's line:
>>>> Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
>
Nice climb. My favorite memories involved one nice sunny lower steep
pitch and shaded pair of easy parallel palm cracks.
>from Hal's clarence king photo. it was stupendous. oh what a day,
>what a place. it was mostly class 4, with just a few sphincter
>tightners in the 5.6 range (most just stepping over/around the crest
>while hoping there was as much for the blind toes as the solid
Edge with sides more than toes.
>fingers).
I have to get around to King but a friend want to fly his plane ala what
Roper did for his 1976 book.
>most (ok, not all) of my best climbing memories are surely sub-5.9
>many are like class 4 or at most 5.2 and most were done alone -- so
>you'll have to take my word for it.
Well, the descent on the Swiss Arete has a nice steep couloir below it.
Ski it.
>have i been scared shitless on climbs? d'yaa think? but if those
>moments were the centerpiece of the experience for me, would i have
>devoted so much of my life to it? while the evidence might scream
>otherwise, i am not a complete moron.
The problem won't be whether any person as an individual is scared
shitless. It's when you are part of a group, and you have to make a life
or death decision which might result in someone else dying, and you have
to decide whether to break the zipper-fast chain reaction. You should
hope that you never have to make that decision.
--
Eugene Miya
^,,^ <pipwasj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>our brother David Kastrup wrote, in part:
>> You get something like that in a gym.
>
>rock gyms are like (more than like) dayglo plastic bolted to sheets of
When my partner Bob speaks of gyms and higher 5th ratings, we just put
him leading the crux of thin real climbs.
>~~~
>and our brother Hal wrote, in part:
>>> Do easy climbs. They can be lots of fun.
>
>Precisely. Hal, you are surely as smart as you look.
Hal is tall.
;^)
--
^,,^
if Hal was 4' 11" he'd still rock my world
^,,^
Sue
wrote:
> But then the staircase is boring.
Maybe you need to get out more.
ant
> and it's poor form to make your pal do it all. though if i could get
> away with it, and still sleep at night, i surely would.
man after my own heart.
anyone driving through tuolumne this season drop by (and ropegun). ill
be in campsite B19 straight through.
cheers
ant
^,,^
> > the only reason i lead anything, ever, is that someone has to. that
> > and it's poor form to make your pal do it all. though if i could get
> > away with it, and still sleep at night, i surely would.
our brother Ant wrote
> man after my own heart.
> anyone driving through tuolumne this season drop by (and ropegun). ill
> be in campsite B19 straight through.
ANT ! ! !
i got your kind email, alas 3 or more months late. i was bogged down
in khatmandu doing the standard low rent permit olympics. nepali has
a word that translates directly to a verbal genuflection: "hajur"
suffice to say that i hajured a lot. that and wore a tie. the
khatmandu middle management set is absolutely slayed by a tie every
time. a tie and a sportcoat will get you into the parliment. add a
few select 'hajurs' and you might well become prime minister.
well, sorry i missed you in toulemne. i suspect you had a ball. i
mostly did, 'there'. i kinda knew before i left that the chances of
me topping out were slim. even the easist descent route is spooky. i
suspect i had that latter thought in mind as i bailed off the north
side, four times in a row, in the end. it was kind of a pisser as i
could see a thousand feet of (probably) perfect blue ice runnels like
only 500 ft over my head (at my best high point). think 'ham and
eggs' schwellegant. only between me and bliss was forever this blank
nothing that kicked back to rather significantly overhung. that and
the lot of it was like 3 or 5 or 30 feet thick with this like useless
frozen shaving cream that was like, well, you've skied on the east
coast -- you know when a tree gets in the way of one of those howling
snow guns, how the tree ends up with at least 2 feet of foamy frozen
useless hosed all over it. it was like that. perhaps a truly manic
pal willing to swim through the seemingly miles of that crap (to to
find, er, what?) might have talked me into it. for i did so want to
check out all that bluey stuff which lead to the ridge (which no one
could miss).
but, in the end, having looked at it from 4 distinct angles on 4
distinct tries over 2 not so distinct weeks, i just couldn't find a
way through. well, not one worth dying for. i have no doubt that
bigger and better kids will work it out, eventually, probably soon.
anyone who tries will find the best natural snow cave any climber ever
wet dreamed of just beneath the rock wall just just beneath (well,
just and them some) the perfect blue ice runnels, imagine the
anazasi's wettest dream. big, perfect, safe, out of the wind, and oh
the views were absolutely pant wetting. i suspect i simply grew to
like my cave too much. why swim through acres of frozen cheese froth
when you can just tool up and hang out in heaven? that and in my
dotage i was finding the whole silly epic the perfect excuse to simply
hang out with my local pals. that and my special gift for special
pals this season -- tequila! wha-hoo! then suddenly nap time.
so, um, yeah.... sheesh
so you know, already, today, that you'll be in campsite b19 for the
entire season? how the hell did you pull that off? actually, haven
seen it before, i can almost guess -- and if i guessed right, you're
either a prostitute or a genius (or both). ah, but one can only be
so stupid in tuolumne. good for you. best dry rock destination in
the known universe. well, at least among those known to this dog.
this time i promise to catch up with you, there. well, that or drop
dead in the interim. in the later case, i'll hardly care -- that and
you'll eventually figure out why i didn't show up.
in the meantime, i'll be up in blue haven at the end of the month --
some dopes there are actually willing to pay me for simply showing
up. well, that and explaining the known universe to a wad of the type
of alumni who actually show up for reunions. me, i'm thinking the
kind of inbred squids who used to volunteer to be tour guides -- only
place in blue haven where anyone would almost give half a shit that
the best thing you could say for yourself was that you went to school,
there, then. for the rest and most of us that was simply ground
zero.
me, i'm gonna take my testarossa's and my harness and check out your
work in silliman. if it (or far more likely, i) absolutely suck, i
promise to torment you about it. forever.
soon and forever,
^,,^
ant
> entire season? how the hell did you pull that off?
'guess you'll have to drop by and find out.
> me, i'm gonna take my testarossa's and my harness and check out your
> work in silliman. if it (or far more likely, i) absolutely suck, i
> promise to torment you about it. forever.
last i heard the silligym is no more. but im pretty sure harkness is
still there-
i'm the unshaven kid with the walmart tent. that should narrow it
down.
see you when i see you-