It's official - we're all bad belayers
Dawn Alguard
heard this "no sliding" nonsense here from Kastrup, then the AMC picked
it up and it got bandied about my gym, then the gym manager himself
started making snarky comments, and now it's official. I and everyone I
know (except Kastrup) is a bad and dangerous belayer. It's lucky a new
generation of know-it-alls has come along to tell all you has-beens how
wrong you are before we're all dead.
Dawn
Paulina
Don't have a copy. What are they condemning exactly? You're not supposed
to slide your hand on the break end even if you're holding it with the
other hand? I don't get it.
Cheers
Paulina
David Kastrup
> Anyone see the article in R&I on the "right" way to belay? I first
> heard this "no sliding" nonsense here from Kastrup, then the AMC
> picked it up and it got bandied about my gym, then the gym manager
> himself started making snarky comments, and now it's official. I
> and everyone I know (except Kastrup) is a bad and dangerous belayer.
I have not yet had the pleasure to know you.
> It's lucky a new generation of know-it-alls has come along to tell
> all you has-beens how wrong you are before we're all dead.
Well, not everybody is a fan of backups, it would seem.
Unfortunately, it takes a _lot_ of small things to make a good
belayer, and a lot of small things can go wrong. Weeding out those
small things is not something you'll ever get finished, and they have
a tendency to come back. And then one hailstorm might flatten all
differences. But when the shit hits the fan, I prefer to be fluid
with those movements where I am not taking chances with slippage.
And if you find that reason enough to holler at me, I could not care
less. If every clip takes hours until you get enough rope, that is a
reason to holler, at least if the belayer can be reasonably expected
to have acquired sufficient practice. But that's usually more often
due to the belayer being unattentive rather than clumsy or contorted.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
David Kastrup
That would indeed be surprising. It is rather my guess that one is
not supposed to slide one's hand on the break end when the other hand
is engaged with the hot end of the rope or elsewhere.
> I don't get it.
Tut, tut. If you don't watch out, you'll be grouped with the
anal-retentive Kastrup, and all rec.climbing warm fuzzy communal
identity will go down the drain.
Dawn Alguard
> Don't have a copy. What are they condemning exactly? You're not supposed
> to slide your hand on the break end even if you're holding it with the
> other hand?
No, you're not supposed to slide the brake hand *unless* you're holding
it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack. Also, you're not
allowed to hold your brake hand down and in front of you - must be off
to the side and slightly behind.
The contortions that people who belay with this method go through look
uncomfortable and almost dangerous. I don't believe that a hand wrapped
most of the way around your body could actually be effective. I think
it would get in the way.
The tag line for the article is "About half the climbers out there are
belaying wrong." Which is why half of us are dead.
Dawn
Sue
Dawn Alguard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
yeah I saw it. I do it wrong, too. I have caught some pretty big whips
tho. Just ask brent.
Paulina
> Paulina wrote:
>
>> Don't have a copy. What are they condemning exactly? You're not
>> supposed to slide your hand on the break end even if you're holding it
>> with the other hand?
>
> No, you're not supposed to slide the brake hand *unless* you're holding
> it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack.
Ah. I'm doing this part wrong then. I let it slide when feeding slack.
> Also, you're not
> allowed to hold your brake hand down and in front of you - must be off
> to the side and slightly behind.
Ah. That part I'm doing wrong too. Assuming a tubular device, I was
under the impression that this depends which way (up or down) your break
end points out of the device. Mine usually points down, hence, to keep
it from "crossing", the hand points down too.
I would have liked to be "grouped with Kastrup" but I seem to be with
the "wrong" crowd here. Would hate to encourage complacency, on that
point I agree with David. But this is what I do (any potential future
partners take note, I guess).
Cheers
Paulina
Chris Smith
> No, you're not supposed to slide the brake hand *unless* you're holding
> it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack.
Hmm. I was doing okay until the "not even when feeding slack" part. So
I can think of two ways to feed slack under this rule. Both seem very
complex and error-prone.
--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.
Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
wiclimber
Thank God for our resident German...along with Schlock and Vice
Alles gute,
AK
wiclimber
Thank God for our resident German...along with Schlock and Vice
Alles gute,
AK
Lord Slime
> Anyone see the article in R&I on the "right" way to belay?
No. Can you describe it?
- Lord Slime
Mad Dog
>I have not yet had the pleasure to know you.
You mean in the biblical sense?
If so, isn't "yet" a bit presumptuous?
David Kastrup
> Dawn Alguard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> No, you're not supposed to slide the brake hand *unless* you're holding
>> it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack.
>
> Hmm. I was doing okay until the "not even when feeding slack" part.
> So I can think of two ways to feed slack under this rule. Both seem
> very complex and error-prone.
Well, my standard belay device for leading is the Munter hitch. The
proper lockoff position for the Munter is with both ropes _up_ from
the belay device. Switching one hand over, sliding the brake hand
onward, switching the feed hand back is a pretty fluid movement.
Other brake devices I use just for toproping (an eight) or getting
followers up (usually plate or Munter), so I basically just take and
never feed. Again, the movement patterns are fluid and comfortable,
the lockoff position is not far from the right hip for the right (the
brake hand) as described by Dawn as the anal-retentive way of doing
things.
So while I can't attest to the comfort of "feeding from the hip", the
variants of "feeding the Munter from the top" and "taking from hip"
are patterns that are quite manageable. Not just for me: all my
regular climbing partners do it the same, and without me having
lectured any of them on that.
Improper belay is by far the most frequent cause of injury and death
here in a nation with a high ratio of sport climbers and bolted routes
(in the Alps, adverse weather conditions often paired with stupidity
take more or less the second place, I think).
And so the alpine clubs make a point of educating people. It is not
an absolute thing, of course, but if an accident gets avoided by lucky
chance and reflexes some time or other...
Mad Dog
>No, you're not supposed to slide the brake hand *unless* you're holding
>it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack. Also, you're not
>allowed to hold your brake hand down and in front of you - must be off
>to the side and slightly behind.
>The contortions that people who belay with this method go through look
>uncomfortable and almost dangerous. I don't believe that a hand wrapped
>most of the way around your body could actually be effective. I think
>it would get in the way.
My wife used to run a gym where her manager was not a climber. He bought into
an insurance plan that indirectly required use of the mountaineer's belay, which
is either just like what you describe or very near to it. So if you taught
folks to belay there, you were required to teach that technique. Fortunately,
experienced climbers were allowed to use other standard methods. But the
mountaineer's belay is very uncomfortable and it's really busy too. It's too
cumbersome for belaying a fast leader or second. If I was leading on terrain
where I had a high probability of falling, I'd be just as happy if my partner
used the rope shuttle technique as long as he/she was paying attention.
>The tag line for the article is "About half the climbers out there are
>belaying wrong." Which is why half of us are dead.
Or are we just half dead?
David Kastrup
> David Kastrup says...
>
>>I have not yet had the pleasure to know you.
>
> You mean in the biblical sense?
I thought it was a typically German ailment to feel uneasy until all
utterings have been filed in the correct folder.
> If so, isn't "yet" a bit presumptuous?
Then you'd better not file my words yet. And it might not always be
easy to find a suitable folder, anyway. Just scattering them over the
floor seems to work for me most of the time.
Cf. Message-ID: <x51xgk7...@lola.goethe.zz>, a silly old posting
in sci.math where it would have been a shame to file too early.
Clyde
> Anyone see the article in R&I on the "right" way to belay?
Who wrote it?
julie...@gmail.com
pull rope through the device, then swapping hands on the brake. While
it's advanced (you don't want to be confused about which end you can't
let go of), it is *much* faster, and the swapping is done in the
braked-off position.
One night in the good-ol' BRG, I was belaying Scott as he ran speed
laps on the overhang. A new kid behind the desk was watching me, and
all of a sudden jumped over the desk, ran up to me, and YELLED at me
that he would THROW ME OUT of the gym if he saw me let go of the brake
again.
I slowly demonstrated that at all times, I had either one or TWO hands
on the brake, without sliding either one. Told him I'd learned the
technique from guide in Joshua Tree. Other employees came over to
"vouch" for me, since I'd taught there for two years even (this isn't a
technique I would teach to beginners, of course). But no, Mr. New Kid
was sure I was going to have to leave.
JSH
Dawn Alguard
Duane Raleigh.
I think this is the point where I give up on R&I. I gave up on Climbing
a couple of years ago. The issue has been sitting on my table for a
couple of days now and I can't bring myself to read it. I have a strong
desire to put it straight in the trash can. They should consider that
if half their readership is "wrong" maybe they don't want to be "right."
Dawn
David Kastrup
I've done that occasionally as well. The main argument going against
it would probably be that you are more likely to mess this up when in
a tired stupor: when the move patterns of left and right hand get out
of sync, you are typically in a worse situation than if you had kept
brake and lead hand separate, and/or are more likely to get this
sorted out again fast.
On the other hand, one is mostly tempted to do it in that manner when
things are really going fast, and that's not likely to be the stupor
scenario.
Dawn Alguard
> Improper belay is by far the most frequent cause of injury and death
> here in a nation with a high ratio of sport climbers and bolted routes
Interesting. Have you got something like our ANAM? I would say that
the number of accidents attributed to improper belay averages under 2
per year here* and that half of those, ironically, invovle Gri-Gri's.
Sounds like it's your crew that's belaying wrong, not ours, so why
should we adopt your technique?
I shouldn't have singled you out, really. I doubt even you are doing
something as awkward and idiotic as what this article proposes. I
thought of you because I seem to recall that you were anti-sliding even
on rappel.
Dawn
* ANAM has it as 181 over 50 years but that's "inadequate" belay which
seems to include soloing
Dawn Alguard
> I've done that occasionally as well. The main argument going against
> it would probably be that you are more likely to mess this up when in
> a tired stupor: when the move patterns of left and right hand get out
> of sync, you are typically in a worse situation than if you had kept
> brake and lead hand separate, and/or are more likely to get this
> sorted out again fast.
I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
instinctively. It's not something I have to think about, belaying or
rappelling, no matter how many times I change my brake hand. As Julie
said, I wouldn't teach a beginner that way.
When I need to take in or feed out rope really fast, it's faster and
less fumbly to slide. I really believe it's safer to slide. Again, I
wouldn't teach a beginner to slide. They have no sense of how much
contact they need to have with the rope to keep control. But I do think
it's something an experienced belayer does safely and instinctively and
that it actually produces a smoother, more micro-managed belay than any
other method.
Dawn
David Kastrup
That's one interesting difference in stances in America and Germany.
When the German climber association's security circle publishes
surveys and tests where they found that a rather large ratio of people
in climbing halls belay unsecurely, and publish tests just how much
weight what stance will hold with which falls, and publish statistics
about accidents and what caused them, the consequence is that
recommendations are developed about how to deal with the situation,
and the teaching plans are adapted, and the stuff is taught in the
courses and spread in the various publications.
The corresponding reaction in America is that people stop reading the
magazines, because when the magazines find that half the people belay
suboptimally, of course they must be wrong.
"Room for improvement" is just not an American concept.
Dingus Milktoast
David Kastrup wrote:
>
> The corresponding reaction in America is that people stop reading the
> magazines, because when the magazines find that half the people belay
> suboptimally, of course they must be wrong.
>
> "Room for improvement" is just not an American concept.
No sir, we all march in goosetep with Dawn... what she says, WE SAYS!
But in Germany it is quite clear novice climbers with momma's gunk
still behind their ears quote climbing manuals as if they wrote the
book themselves, lol! Every german climber I know is a self-appointed
safety expert.
Yawn. I mean!
DAWN.
DMT
Clyde
> The corresponding reaction in America is that people stop reading the
> magazines, because when the magazines find that half the people belay
> suboptimally, of course they must be wrong.
There simply is no formal testing in this country and no good system of
sharing data around the world. The AAC is beyond lame, so is the AMGA.
And the mags can't afford to do quality research.
> "Room for improvement" is just not an American concept.
BS, we just don't believe everything in print.
David Kastrup
> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Improper belay is by far the most frequent cause of injury and death
>> here in a nation with a high ratio of sport climbers and bolted routes
>
> Interesting. Have you got something like our ANAM? I would say that
> the number of accidents attributed to improper belay averages under 2
> per year here* and that half of those, ironically, invovle
> Gri-Gri's. Sounds like it's your crew that's belaying wrong, not ours,
> so why should we adopt your technique?
>
> I shouldn't have singled you out, really. I doubt even you are
> doing something as awkward and idiotic as what this article
> proposes. I thought of you because I seem to recall that you were
> anti-sliding even on rappel.
I am pretty much anti-sliding on rappel, and I go faster down than
most others, and at least as smoothly. And part of the reason I can
go down faster than others is _because_ I am anti-sliding. If I had
to control the rope by letting it _slide_ through my hands at that
speed instead of passing it from hand to hand, I'd get rope burn. If
your hands keep moving _with_ the rope, even a descent fully
controlled with hand-to-hand movement can be smooth and continuous and
not jerky at all.
You are always comparing _unpractised_ movement patterns with what you
consider the one true way of not being clumsy. That's like judging
the sound quality of a violin by letting a piano player try it.
From the bits I have heard about that article, I don't think it too
unlikely that I am pretty much doing something as awkward and idiotic
as what this article proposes. Only that it would fail to register as
awkward and idiotic to onlookers (including yourself) when I am doing
it.
David Kastrup
> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> I've done that occasionally as well. The main argument going against
>> it would probably be that you are more likely to mess this up when in
>> a tired stupor: when the move patterns of left and right hand get out
>> of sync, you are typically in a worse situation than if you had kept
>> brake and lead hand separate, and/or are more likely to get this
>> sorted out again fast.
>
> I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
> instinctively.
Uh, we are talking about the non-sliding left/right pattern, where the
brake hand is constantly changing sides with every move.
> It's not something I have to think about, belaying or rappelling, no
> matter how many times I change my brake hand.
Sound as though it would be your choice how often you change. But the
change is part of the pattern Julie is talking about. And this
particular pattern would be very much pointless (and actually
impossible) with sliding brake hand.
> When I need to take in or feed out rope really fast, it's faster and
> less fumbly to slide. I really believe it's safer to slide.
Dawn, don't you even notice the fallacy of your reasoning? You first
name a particular case where you think sliding could have an
advantage. And then you make the claim that because of that, it
should be the _only_ and general way of doing this.
It's like "you won't be able to properly concentrate for three days
without sleeping, so the safest way to belay on a three-day trip is to
be sleeping all the time."
> Again, I wouldn't teach a beginner to slide. They have no sense of
> how much contact they need to have with the rope to keep control.
> But I do think it's something an experienced belayer does safely and
> instinctively
When called for, probably.
> and that it actually produces a smoother, more micro-managed belay
> than any other method.
And again, you suddenly declare something that might occur in some
situations as a controlled exception, to be a "method" on its own.
There is a difference between mitigating a method when the situation
calls for it and abandoning it.
David Kastrup
> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Improper belay is by far the most frequent cause of injury and death
>> here in a nation with a high ratio of sport climbers and bolted routes
>
> Interesting. Have you got something like our ANAM? I would say that
> the number of accidents attributed to improper belay averages under 2
> per year here* and that half of those, ironically, invovle
> Gri-Gri's. Sounds like it's your crew that's belaying wrong, not ours,
> so why should we adopt your technique?
>
> I shouldn't have singled you out, really. I doubt even you are
> doing something as awkward and idiotic as what this article
> proposes. I thought of you because I seem to recall that you were
> anti-sliding even on rappel.
I am pretty much anti-sliding on rappel, and I go faster down than
most others, and at least as smoothly. And part of the reason I can
go down faster than others is _because_ I am anti-sliding. If I had
to control the rope by letting it _slide_ through my hands at that
speed instead of passing it from hand to hand, I'd get rope burn. If
your hands keep moving _with_ the rope, even a descent fully
controlled with hand-to-hand movement can be smooth and continuous and
not jerky at all.
You are always comparing _unpractised_ movement patterns with what you
consider the one true way of not being clumsy. That's like judging
the sound quality of a violin by letting a piano player try it.
From the bits I have heard about that article, I don't think it too
unlikely that I am pretty much doing something as awkward and idiotic
as what this article proposes. Only that it would fail to register as
awkward and idiotic to onlookers (including yourself) when I am doing
it.
Just for the record again: when belaying leaders, my belay device is
the Munter, and the Munter handles differently. I think I had used
some hands-down device for lead belaying very few times, and the
required rope handling did feel awkward even to me IIRC. So I am
either using a hands-up device (Munter), or am only taking rope, not
feeding it, while using a hands-down device. Within the limits of
those combinations, however, I am as awkward and idiotic as my skills
and the situation permit.
Lord Slime
> it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack.
That's nonsense.
> Also, you're not
> allowed to hold your brake hand down and in front of you - must be off
> to the side and slightly behind.
It Depends (tm). So I disagree with this also.
> The contortions that people who belay with this method go through look
> uncomfortable and almost dangerous. I don't believe that a hand wrapped
> most of the way around your body could actually be effective. I think
> it would get in the way.
Yup. I've seen people do the hand-over-hand thing. I don't want
those people to belay me. Also, on a cramped belay-ledge, who
could possibly do this?
> The tag line for the article is "About half the climbers out there are
> belaying wrong." Which is why half of us are dead.
What a crock. Who wrote this article?
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> less fumbly to slide. I really believe it's safer to slide.
I agree. Safer, faster (both feed and take) and easier to
learn because the action is simpler. And for the advanced
belayer, the ability to give a dynamic belay without an
excess of rope, even while anchored to a cramped belay
ledge.
> Again, I wouldn't teach a beginner to slide.
I have, and will again, because of all of the above.
> They have no sense of how much
> contact they need to have with the rope to keep control.
Did you really mean to say "contact"? Because I've seen you
belay (and you use a JAWS), and you don't use "contact".
I think you meant, "They have no sense of how to hold the
rope to keep control."
Let me reiterate what I've said here for 15 or more years: it's
not friction with your hand that stops the fall, it's the belay device
that provides the friction, and this is controlled by the ANGLE
OF THE ROPE into the device. Your hand merely needs to
control the angle. If you are burning your hand, like Herr Kastrup,
then you're doing it wrong or you need a better device.
My first belay device was an unsprung Stitch plate which I still
use for trad climbing. This thing locks up if you sneeze on it
and it has excellent stopping power; better than any other
passive device I've used. This is good when your out-of-sight
leader takes a big one and surprises you. Stitch plates are
really a pain in the ass to lower with, but on trad climbs you
rarely lower.
In the mid-80's the Tuber/Pyramid/ATC-like devices were
introduced so that *lowering* off of sport climbs was easier
and smoother. In order to achieve this they made the device
thicker which reduces the maximum friction, and thus they
sacrificed stopping power.
In my opinion, except for the JAWS, none of these devices
has excellent stopping power for a high fall-factor fall with a
heavy climber. Thus, you see a lot of belayers turning their
hand palm down, wearing gloves or adopting some complex
hand-swapping motions to compensate for improper
technique and inferior devices.
- Lord Slime
P.S. Maybe I'll just send this to R&I.
Lord Slime
> I am pretty much anti-sliding on rappel, and I go faster down than
> most others, and at least as smoothly. And part of the reason I can
> go down faster than others is _because_ I am anti-sliding. If I had
> to control the rope by letting it _slide_ through my hands at that
> speed instead of passing it from hand to hand, I'd get rope burn.
Bullshit. There's so much wrong with your paragraph I'm
not even gonna start.
> If your hands keep moving _with_ the rope, even a descent fully
> controlled with hand-to-hand movement can be smooth and continuous and
> not jerky at all.
Nonsense. Apply your German logic to this sentence.
> You are always comparing _unpractised_ movement patterns with what you
> consider the one true way of not being clumsy. That's like judging
> the sound quality of a violin by letting a piano player try it.
A poor similie. I've been lowered by plenty of people who use
various "feed the rope" techniques using two hands. Always
slower, always jerky, always scary. I've watched people use the
feed method on rappel too with the same result.
> From the bits I have heard about that article, I don't think it too
> unlikely that I am pretty much doing something as awkward and idiotic
> as what this article proposes.
We would expect nothing less from you David.
- Lord Slime
Simon Isbister
"Chris Smith" <cds...@twu.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dc999a71...@news.altopia.net...
> Dawn Alguard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> No, you're not supposed to slide the brake hand *unless* you're holding
>> it with your other hand, not even when feeding slack.
>
> Hmm. I was doing okay until the "not even when feeding slack" part. So
> I can think of two ways to feed slack under this rule. Both seem very
> complex and error-prone.
I don't know what everyone is so worked up about. Its easy to avoid sliding
the rope through your brake hand when you feed slack- just take the hand
right off the rope. No more sliding.
(apperently, I'm in the "dead" category, too)
-s-
David Kastrup
> Let me reiterate what I've said here for 15 or more years: it's not
> friction with your hand that stops the fall, it's the belay device
> that provides the friction, and this is controlled by the ANGLE OF
> THE ROPE into the device. Your hand merely needs to control the
> angle. If you are burning your hand, like Herr Kastrup, then you're
> doing it wrong or you need a better device.
Please provide quotes when you are misrepresenting me.
Thank you.
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
>> I am pretty much anti-sliding on rappel, and I go faster down than
>> most others, and at least as smoothly. And part of the reason I
>> can go down faster than others is _because_ I am anti-sliding. If
>> I had to control the rope by letting it _slide_ through my hands at
>> that speed instead of passing it from hand to hand, I'd get rope
>> burn.
>
> Bullshit. There's so much wrong with your paragraph I'm not even
> gonna start.
That was easy, wasn't it?
>> If your hands keep moving _with_ the rope, even a descent fully
>> controlled with hand-to-hand movement can be smooth and continuous
>> and not jerky at all.
>
> Nonsense. Apply your German logic to this sentence.
You'll need to do better in name-calling 101 before you may enter
arguing.
Simon Isbister
> Dawn Alguard <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>>> I've done that occasionally as well. The main argument going against
>>> it would probably be that you are more likely to mess this up when in
>>> a tired stupor: when the move patterns of left and right hand get out
>>> of sync, you are typically in a worse situation than if you had kept
>>> brake and lead hand separate, and/or are more likely to get this
>>> sorted out again fast.
>>
>> I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
>> instinctively.
>
> Uh, we are talking about the non-sliding left/right pattern, where the
> brake hand is constantly changing sides with every move.
Point being? When I do switch break hands (whether it is back and forth, or
just once) there is never any thought involved in recalling which hand is
currently the break hand. Whether you want to call it instinct or just
experience, I find that my break hand is my break hand... which ever hand it
happens to be. When you are walking around with a drink in your hand, you
don't have to think about which hand is doing the carrying- it simply *is*.
-s-
Sue
"Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
<snipped for length>
> - Lord Slime
>
> P.S. Maybe I'll just send this to R&I.
please do.
(although I DO like the BD ATC XP in high friction mode.)
Karl P
Dawn Alguard wrote:
> I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
> instinctively. It's not something I have to think about, belaying or
> rappelling, no matter how many times I change my brake hand.
I agree, regardless of how I'm belaying, I tend to know which rope is
what, and what's in what hand.
> As Julie said, I wouldn't teach a beginner that way.
Why not? You're rubbishing the alternative, claiming your way is
better, and we're all wrong, but you don't like your way enough to
teach it? What exactly do you teach then? A mystical third way?
> When I need to take in or feed out rope really fast, it's faster and
> less fumbly to slide. I really believe it's safer to slide. Again, I
> wouldn't teach a beginner to slide. They have no sense of how much
> contact they need to have with the rope to keep control. But I do think
> it's something an experienced belayer does safely and instinctively and
> that it actually produces a smoother, more micro-managed belay than any
> other method.
So it seems that what happens is you learn some other way, but don't
like the whole "do as I say, not as I do" aspect that comes from being
this "third way" while your teacher does the slide tango.
So you promptly start doing it to, good enough for him, good enough for
me, that sort of thing. And now you're in this whole unsafe, lack of
experience window. Gotta slide for a while to learn how to slide.
Hope nothing fucks up while you're still learning. (not you Dawn,
you've already got the necessary experience ;)
But hey, you know what's worse than either of these tactics? People
using the munter both hands up switch over tactic with a tube style
device.
Makes our petty arguments fade into insignificance, yet still a pretty
commonly taught method.
Cheers,
Karl P
Karl P
Lord Slime wrote:
> Let me reiterate what I've said here for 15 or more years: it's
> not friction with your hand that stops the fall, it's the belay device
> that provides the friction, and this is controlled by the ANGLE
> OF THE ROPE into the device. Your hand merely needs to
> control the angle. If you are burning your hand, like Herr Kastrup,
> then you're doing it wrong or you need a better device.
This is the slime I remember, insults, backed up with good hard solid
"PAY ATTENTION NUMBSKULLS" facts.
However, I do respectfully submit that if I don't have a flat plate
belay device, (and not all are created equal, the small end of a fig8
makes a pretty poor flat plate device in my mind) then simply holding
my hand around my back, down, wherever it makes the sharpest angle of
rope entry into the device, as you would say is sufficient, is simply
not.
With a nice big smooth ATC/Pyramid/Reverso/et al, a loose (sliding)
hand even when held down won't actually control the braking. The rope
will happily bend up enough to run smoothly through the device. That's
what it was designed for after all. As you point out in your next two
paragraphs.....
> My first belay device was an unsprung Stitch plate which I still
> use for trad climbing. This thing locks up if you sneeze on it
> and it has excellent stopping power; better than any other
> passive device I've used. This is good when your out-of-sight
> leader takes a big one and surprises you. Stitch plates are
> really a pain in the ass to lower with, but on trad climbs you
> rarely lower.
>
> In the mid-80's the Tuber/Pyramid/ATC-like devices were
> introduced so that *lowering* off of sport climbs was easier
> and smoother. In order to achieve this they made the device
> thicker which reduces the maximum friction, and thus they
> sacrificed stopping power.
>
> In my opinion, except for the JAWS, none of these devices
> has excellent stopping power for a high fall-factor fall with a
> heavy climber. Thus, you see a lot of belayers turning their
> hand palm down, wearing gloves or adopting some complex
> hand-swapping motions to compensate for improper
> technique and inferior devices.
So what are you actually saying?
use a stitch plate, belay with sliding
use a munter, don't care, you're foreign
use a "modern" device, ?????
Your own argument here seems to support Dave et al. Sliding with
modern belay devices is dangerous. You can slide, because you don't
use one.
So where are we at as a group?
Dawn uses a Jaws (in my opinion no better than any of the other modern
devices) and belays with sliding. arguable
Slime uses a plate, and belays with sliding. no problems
Dave uses a munter, and belays with switching. no problems
R&I says that belaying with sliding is bad. Assuming they're targetting
a readership with mostly ATCs, probably fairly correct advice.
Still, there's probably bigger fish to fry. Three examples of a
belaying style that probably causes more accidents than any of our
petty bickering. (well, except for the first one)
http://www.tweak.net.au/pics2/2004/Nov/rrg/pichtml/web_crw_7745_jfr.html
http://www.tweak.net.au/pics2/2004/Sept/indiancreek/pichtml/web_crw_6724_jfr.html
http://www.tweak.net.au/pics2/2004/August/ved_curtmatt/pichtml/web_crw_6135_jfr.html
David Kastrup
> But hey, you know what's worse than either of these tactics? People
> using the munter both hands up switch over tactic with a tube style
> device.
>
> Makes our petty arguments fade into insignificance, yet still a
> pretty commonly taught method.
"Switching over" is not a method. So what _method_ are you talking
about? Are you complaining about using a Munter with both hands up?
Are you complaining about using a tube with both hands up? Or the
tube with one hand down? Or the Munter with one hand down?
There is a Munter, and a method to use it, and there are tubes, and a
method to use them. "switching over" is not a method.
I use both Munter and other devices, and use both of them with their
own methods.
The problem is not that a different method is taught, the problem is
when the appropriate method for a particular device is _not_ being
taught or internalized.
An improperly handled Munter is a pretty bad device: it has a
possibility of tangling, crossloading and even unscrewing the biner,
it kinks the rope like anything and it has inconsistent (though
usually sufficient) braking power. An improperly handled tube has
"just" the problem that it does not brake anything close to useful.
So what is the "pretty commonly taught method" you are complaining
about?
Karl P
both rope strands going up, with hand swappage taking place above the
device.
I call the munter technique it's own name, because I see farrrr more
people using it with a tube device than using it with an actual munter.
Rightly or wrongly, I can probably count on one hand the number of
times I've seen someone belaying a free climbing leader with a munter
by choice.
Karl P
it's just an article designed to make you think about it at least.
Would you rather the mag was filled with pictures of Joey Moronia
cranking hard on the latest so ill hard shit V Bitchin boulder problem?
Sick dude! [sorry, this is R&I, not climbing, so instead it's tales
of the latest siege of some obscure ridge in north america by a team of
pseudo retired doctors who just had enough money to pay for the charter
flights to get into said area]
Way I see, there's three camps of magazine readers.
1) in it for the pictures, and nothing else
2) Gumby, thinks reading will make them better
3) experienced, reads the articles to get upset about them.
I'd like to think that you're in category 1, but you're coming off like
category 3.
Anyone got any pictures to go with this story?
David Kastrup
> I'm referring to people using a tube, using a munter technique. ie,
> both rope strands going up, with hand swappage taking place above
> the device.
>
> I call the munter technique it's own name, because I see farrrr more
> people using it with a tube device than using it with an actual
> munter.
I find that weird. I can imagine people using the Munter like other
devices because they don't know better, but the "Munter technique"
does not make sense with _any_ belay device except a Munter (or does
it with a GriGri? No idea, don't use them). So that would make it
likely that somewhere in the downward spiral of incompetency, the
teaching or myth would have started with a Munter.
> Rightly or wrongly, I can probably count on one hand the number of
> times I've seen someone belaying a free climbing leader with a
> munter by choice.
Well, just shows that you are not climbing in the alps. Most other
stuff is viewed suspiciously there for lead belays, particularly among
the geezers.
David Kastrup
> Still, there's probably bigger fish to fry. Three examples of a
> belaying style that probably causes more accidents than any of our
> petty bickering. (well, except for the first one)
>
> http://www.tweak.net.au/pics2/2004/Nov/rrg/pichtml/web_crw_7745_jfr.html
> http://www.tweak.net.au/pics2/2004/Sept/indiancreek/pichtml/web_crw_6724_jfr.html
> http://www.tweak.net.au/pics2/2004/August/ved_curtmatt/pichtml/web_crw_6135_jfr.html
I don't see what you are talking about. In the last two pictures,
nobody is being belayed because no protection has been placed yet.
What you see is the slack before first clip. There is no sense in
aggravating the leader by pulling on the rope while he is still in
free solo phase (unless there is a >1 fall factor scenario, like when
starting sideways from a ledge). There _would_ be some point in
spotting in those pictures, but frankly, about 5% of all belayers I
see actually bother to spot before the first clip, regardless how ugly
the start is.
Paulina
I've seen that being taught in gyms and outside courses too. In fact
seems to be the "standard" "American" way (in quotes as probably is
neither but I heard it described this way). I never realized this could
be a vestige of Munter belaying technique.
Cheers
Paulina
Paulina
:) Nice one, Simon.
Cheers
Paulina
Steve Pardoe
<snip>
> The tag line for the article is "About half the climbers out there are
> belaying wrong." Which is why half of us are dead.
You'll be relieved to learn that only a quarter of us are dead.
It will only be half of the lead climbers, those getting dropped by the 50%
of "wrong" belayers, who die this way ; the other half of all the climbers
are their belayers, and quite safe (except from the criticism of learned
journals, or being hit by falling leaders).
Happy to clear that up ;-)
SteveP
Arold "Al" Green
belay is the best for trad climbing.
But, you sport climbers do need to use a belay device.
Al
__
Arold "Al" Green
Will Niccolls
> number of accidents attributed to improper belay averages under 2 per year
> here* and that half of those, ironically, invovle Gri-Gri's.
Only two reported per year? I've personally witnessed that many. I'd put
the actual number closer to a hundred(s) per year. Most of course don't
make the news and aren't lethal. I'd say there are exponentially more
short-rope accidents (like I describe below) than people getting dropped
because they lose control of the rope.
I witnessed a brutal fall at the Red this fall. A woman was 25 meters up, 3
or 4 meters above the bolt, the wall overhangs consistantly at about 25 or
30 degrees. It should have been a dreamy 12 meter float through space with
a soft catch at the end. Instead the belayer pulled in rope! and the
climber predictably swung in and sprung her ankle against the wall, badly
enough that she got carried out. I watched the whole thing unfold, knowing
what was about to happen, and unable to offer usable advice in time. The
belayer was a nice fellow who had the chops to send some 12a sport routes,
but he didn't understand his mistake. I'm surprised the accident rate for
this type of belay failure isn't far higher, because I witness more people
short-roping their partner on steep walls than I do letting go of their
brake hand.
I guess we all have to come to terms with our partners belay mode.
Fortunately the belayer's hand has been one of the more dependable parts of
the systems we use that I've ever observed. I think more important than
which of these methods one uses is that they have practiced catching some
significant falls while using it. The only common belay setup with that I
don't like is the ATC with the thin ropes we use. Far too little braking
force.
Will Niccolls
David Kastrup
> This thread has convinced me even more that the "old fashioned" hip
> belay is the best for trad climbing.
> But, you sport climbers do need to use a belay device.
The typical sport climber can't use a hip belay safely anyway because
it would be an edge load.
David Kastrup
> This thread has convinced me even more that the "old fashioned" hip
> belay is the best for trad climbing.
> But, you sport climbers do need to use a belay device.
The typical sport climber can't use a hip belay safely anyway because
it would constitute an edge load.
Dawn Alguard
>>As Julie said, I wouldn't teach a beginner that way.
>
>
> Why not?
I've seen it done badly. Beginners let their brake hand get too far
away from their body and then when they slide it they lose control of
the slide and effecively let go. When I said that a beginner doesn't
have a feel for how much contact they need with the rope as they slide,
I don't know how to be more clear but if you saw it, you would know it's
wrong.
> What exactly do you teach then? A mystical third way?
I actually start with the pinch and slide. I don't expect it to take a
smart person very long before they understand how a belay should feel
and then they can do whatever they want. Despite the tirades from you
and Kastrup, I actually believe that almost all belay methods are fine
and that people should do as they feel comfortable. There is no one
"true" way and anyone who says there is, is wrong. I not only feel
comfortable being belayed with most methods, I swap between them
frequently myself, including using the pinch and slide on occasion.
It's a good way to take in a lot of rope quickly when someone is really
moving on TR.
Dawn
Dawn Alguard
> From the bits I have heard about that article, I don't think it too
> unlikely that I am pretty much doing something as awkward and idiotic
> as what this article proposes.
Using a Muntner, there's no physical way you could be doing what this
article proposes. Are any of your hands touching your butt at any point?
Dawn
Dawn Alguard
> "Dawn Alguard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
>>Interesting. Have you got something like our ANAM? I would say that the
>>number of accidents attributed to improper belay averages under 2 per year
>>here* and that half of those, ironically, invovle Gri-Gri's.
>
>
> Only two reported per year? I've personally witnessed that many.
You've witnessed two people get dropped per year? I've never seen
anyone get dropped in 6 years. The short roping problem is a completely
separate issue.
Dawn
David Kastrup
My butt? What business would they have there? But I also belay using
an eight for toproping, for example, and it would be possible in
lockoff position for my brake hand to touch the right hip or maybe
even thigh (I have no idea what you'd want to do that would make it
touch your butt). In the fluid motions of give and take, however, my
brake hand would be way too much in front to touch anywhere close to
the butt, I guess.
David Kastrup
> Will Niccolls wrote:
>
>> "Dawn Alguard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>
>>> Interesting. Have you got something like our ANAM? I would say
>>> that the number of accidents attributed to improper belay averages
>>> under 2 per year here* and that half of those, ironically, invovle
>>> Gri-Gri's.
>> Only two reported per year? I've personally witnessed that many.
>
> You've witnessed two people get dropped per year? I've never seen
> anyone get dropped in 6 years.
I've been dropped myself. It made me watch belay techniques with a
bit more interest.
Paulina
> Dawn Alguard <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>
>>David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From the bits I have heard about that article, I don't think it too
>>>unlikely that I am pretty much doing something as awkward and
>>>idiotic as what this article proposes.
>>
>>Using a Muntner, there's no physical way you could be doing what
>>this article proposes. Are any of your hands touching your butt at
>>any point?
>
>
> My butt? What business would they have there?
I hate those belayers who have to touch their butt every minute to make
sure it's still there. Damn them! I know all too well that my butt is
there. It has a presence, so to speak.
Cheers :)
Paulina
Will Niccolls
I agree it is a separate issue. No, I haven't witnessed two people being
dropped. In your post, you said 2 accidents per year were attributed to
"improper belay". I supposed short-roping was improper...and I think a
much bigger problem than which hand is or isn't sliding on the rope. I know
it veers from the primary debate of method a vs method b, and it's probably
not as fun to get viciously argumentative over. So I'll just back out and
throw myself on the mercy of the rec.
Lord Slime
> >> If your hands keep moving _with_ the rope, even a descent fully
> >> controlled with hand-to-hand movement can be smooth and continuous
> >> and not jerky at all.
> >
> > Nonsense. Apply your German logic to this sentence.
>
> You'll need to do better in name-calling 101 before you may enter
> arguing.
Okay, I'll clue you in on this one.
If you are rappelling and the rope is moving quickly,
smoothly and continuously, please explain how you will
maintain that using two hands, which are obviously
discrete clamping devices.
How fast can you go before it becomes "jerky"?
What is your maximum speed before you risk losing
control of the rope? How do you look to see where
you are going if you're focussed on grabbing the rope?
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> > friction with your hand that stops the fall, it's the belay device
> > that provides the friction, and this is controlled by the ANGLE OF
> > THE ROPE into the device. Your hand merely needs to control the
> > angle. If you are burning your hand, like Herr Kastrup, then you're
> > doing it wrong or you need a better device.
>
You wrote:
> If I had
> to control the rope by letting it _slide_ through my hands at that
> speed instead of passing it from hand to hand, I'd get rope burn.
Happy now?
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> Lord Slime wrote:
> This is the slime I remember, insults, backed up with good hard solid
> "PAY ATTENTION NUMBSKULLS" facts.
:-)
> However, I do respectfully submit that if I don't have a flat plate
> belay device, (and not all are created equal, the small end of a fig8
> makes a pretty poor flat plate device in my mind) then simply holding
> my hand around my back, down, wherever it makes the sharpest angle of
> rope entry into the device, as you would say is sufficient, is simply
> not.
Yes and no. First of all, to catch a fall a certain amount of
tension must be applied to the rope with your brake hand.
This "smooths out" the rope through the device, which would
otherwise be wagging like a high-speed cat's tail, providing
intermittant friction. (BTW: my plate would probably still lock!)
This isn't much friction, or tension if you're holding the rope
statically, and from a practical standpoint you can mostly
ignore it if you have your hand on the rope.
Beyond that, there's a spectrum of hand-position, hand-motion
and hand-gripping that, depending on the intent of the belayer,
constitutes a safe, soft catch.
If you analyse this you'll find that the angle of the rope through
the device (hand-position) is far and away the number one
factor in a successful catch, or at least it should be. The physics
weenies may disagree but I'd guess the device dissipates
about 98% of the energy .
The problem is that, from my observations, novice or poor
belayers don't achieve the correct hand/rope position, and
compensate by gripping. This, of course, leads to burned
hands and dropped climbers.
And finally, a device that provides more friction means that
the belay can have less than optimal hand-position and still
stop the fall without burning their hand.
> With a nice big smooth ATC/Pyramid/Reverso/et al, a loose (sliding)
> hand even when held down won't actually control the braking. The rope
> will happily bend up enough to run smoothly through the device. That's
> what it was designed for after all. As you point out in your next two
> paragraphs.....
Right.
> > In my opinion, except for the JAWS, none of these devices
> > has excellent stopping power for a high fall-factor fall with a
> > heavy climber. Thus, you see a lot of belayers turning their
> > hand palm down, wearing gloves or adopting some complex
> > hand-swapping motions to compensate for improper
> > technique and inferior devices.
>
> So what are you actually saying?
>
> use a stitch plate, belay with sliding
> use a munter, don't care, you're foreign
> use a "modern" device, ?????
>
> Your own argument here seems to support Dave et al. Sliding with
> modern belay devices is dangerous. You can slide, because you don't
> use one.
I guess what I'm saying is:
1) That the no-slide-hand-over-hand technique is a KLUDGE
to compensate for poor device design and poor technique.
It is inferior in many climbing situations.
2) The "sliding hand" technique has significant advantages,
done properly. Experienced belayers can compensate
for poor devices, but a good device with good technique
is best.
3) As far as "modern" devices, there are newer ones that
provide more friction. The JAWS I like and use. Sue
likes the ATC-XP, which I've only looked at, which has
a V-shape to it for more friction and smaller diameters.
> So where are we at as a group?
> Dawn uses a Jaws (in my opinion no better than any of the other modern
> devices) and belays with sliding. arguable
Catch some falls with it, or rappel with it. It provides
significantly more friction with all diameters.
> Slime uses a plate, and belays with sliding. no problems
Actually, I use a plate for trad, a Jaws or a Grigri for sport, and
a Tuber I won in a raffle for the gym.
> Dave uses a munter, and belays with switching. no problems
> R&I says that belaying with sliding is bad. Assuming they're targetting
> a readership with mostly ATCs, probably fairly correct advice.
I think they are targetting relative novices in the gym and are
followers of what I call The American Paranoid Approach.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> Only two reported per year? I've personally witnessed that many. I'd
put
> the actual number closer to a hundred(s) per year.
I agree.
> I witnessed a brutal fall at the Red this fall. A woman was 25 meters
up, 3
> or 4 meters above the bolt, the wall overhangs consistantly at about 25
or
> 30 degrees. It should have been a dreamy 12 meter float through space
with
> a soft catch at the end. Instead the belayer pulled in rope! and the
> climber predictably swung in and sprung her ankle against the wall, badly
> enough that she got carried out.
Yup. This summer in Rifle a woman broke her foot in something like
6 places (all the bones in-line with her big toe) when this happened.
It was a combination of her skipping a clip and a non-dynamic belay
(heavy guy belaying with a Grigri).
> I guess we all have to come to terms with our partners belay mode.
I've found that the more experienced the climber, the more
discriminating they are about who belays them.
> Fortunately the belayer's hand has been one of the more dependable parts
of
> the systems we use that I've ever observed. I think more important than
> which of these methods one uses is that they have practiced catching some
> significant falls while using it.
Well said.
> The only common belay setup with that I
> don't like is the ATC with the thin ropes we use. Far too little braking
> force.
Yup.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
<11m0bt7...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
> <snipped for length>
> > - Lord Slime
> >
> > P.S. Maybe I'll just send this to R&I.
>
> please do.
I need to read the actual article first.
> (although I DO like the BD ATC XP in high friction mode.)
I haven't used one, but the design looks much better than
the old ATC.
- Lord Slime
Dll
"Will Niccolls"
> Only two reported per year? I've personally witnessed that many.
"Dawn Alguard"
> You've witnessed two people get dropped per year? I've never seen anyone
> get dropped in 6 years.
Not many falls happen by "surprise". Most falls are preceded by a lot of
screaming, whining and commotion. It would take a pretty incompetent person
using fairly bad equipment and horrible technique to not catch a fall they
are paying attention to. I've even caught a lot of falls using my hand
above the device, such that the device didn't see any weight. Just depends
on all the factors.
The key I think is catching the "out of the blue" falls while you're half
asleep. I haven't read this article, but from the tidbits I'm getting here,
it sounds like something I'd generally agree with. I personally do
something often called a "discrete hand switch", where you completely let go
of the rope going to the climber, reach around and grab the brake side, then
slide your brake hand. The two keys are that you're not sliding (therefore
letting go) with the brake hand, and that you're never gripping both ropes
with the same hand (another very common and poor technique), even if it's
just with a finger or two. I also mostly keep my brake hand below the
device. That said, I've definitely had this tested a few times, where I was
extremely surprised by the fall and unprepared for it, but caught it.
- Nate
Dawn Alguard
>
> I think they are targetting relative novices in the gym and are
> followers of what I call The American Paranoid Approach.
Ding, ding! This is what pisses me off about the article so much. It's
shock tactics to sell mags, nothing more. I'd lay odds Duane Releigh
doesn't belay anything like that. Warning, warning! You're all going
to die! It's the standard marketing technique in advertising/news
reporting in the US these days.
Dawn
Julie
> Dawn Alguard wrote:
>
> > I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
> > instinctively. It's not something I have to think about, belaying
> > or rappelling, no matter how many times I change my brake hand.
>
> I agree, regardless of how I'm belaying, I tend to know which rope
> is what, and what's in what hand.
>
> > As Julie said, I wouldn't teach a beginner that way.
>
> Why not?
Having taught a few beginners ... 'why not' is very, very basic.
Most beginners have *NO* idea of what a device does, which end of the
rope the is, or how it happens. Their primary, overwhelming instinct
is towards the climber-end of the rope: they know where that rope
goes, and it's attached directly to the climber. They don't know what
the device is, they don't trust it, so they don't really identify the
rope on the other side of it.
Therefore, most of the belay lesson revolves around one concept: Do
Not Let Go of "THAT" Rope. One hand is hard enough to focus on; the
method then has to be pinch/slide. Palm up or palm down (I've found
that palm down is more intuitive to not 'pinch' below and necessitate
letting go to slide; and palm down is more intuitive to pull down to
brake), but pinch/slide.
Once a climber has enough experience that they instinctively know
which end is which; then they can do the hand-switch. Or whatever;
then familiarity becomes a bigger factor, in terms of what's smoothest
and fastest.
While some of you are arguing that pinch/slide is smoothest and
fastest, I've really found hand swapping to be much better. Maybe
it's the years I've done it; but palm-down brake hand swapping is,
for me, strongest to pull a large handful of slack out of the device.
You pull down with the guide hand, simultaneously pulling out with the
brake hand, then swap. The pull-down hand has ended up right at the
device; no need for those hands to meet far away from you so you can
pinch and slide.
JSH
Julie
>
> I've found that the more experienced the climber, the more
> discriminating they are about who belays them.
Definitely, but it also depends on the belayer's experience as a
climber.
The slide/pinch gives me the heebie-jeebies, personally, but I trust
my experienced partners to know thier shit. I trust the climber more
than the method.
On the other hand, I'm still trying to train another partner, who does
not lead (which is key). Once, I was on doubles, and had gone out 70'
on one rope; then went to finally clip the other, and god it was like
pulling teeth. Another time, watched as this person belayed another
leader, and as the leader topped out, the belayer just let go of the
guide hand and let the leader pull the rope through the device for the
last few moves. Both times, I said something, and was told I was
being "too picky".
JSH
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
>> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> writes:
>> >> If your hands keep moving _with_ the rope, even a descent fully
>> >> controlled with hand-to-hand movement can be smooth and continuous
>> >> and not jerky at all.
>> >
>> > Nonsense. Apply your German logic to this sentence.
>>
>> You'll need to do better in name-calling 101 before you may enter
>> arguing.
>
> Okay, I'll clue you in on this one.
>
> If you are rappelling and the rope is moving quickly,
> smoothly and continuously, please explain how you will
> maintain that using two hands, which are obviously
> discrete clamping devices.
I happen to have arms, so the hands are not fixed in place but are
able to move along some distance with the rope. When the lower hand
is clamped on the rope and travels upwards with it, the upper hand is
unclamped and travels downwards. When the upper hand clamps on the
rope and then travels upwards with the rope, the lower hand is
unclamped and goes down again.
Every hand, while clamped, moves upwards with the rope, and when
unclamped, goes down for its next clamping. The hands _don't_ switch
positions: the lower hand remains at the bottom. And they never open
(even though they unclamp). That way I need not grope for the rope,
it is always in the hands, but also clamped firmly in at least one
hand (which then moves along with it) at the same time.
> How fast can you go before it becomes "jerky"?
It does not become jerky with my eight, but I'd guess about 2-3m/s
would not be untypical if it is a straightforward descent. That would
be around 6 times 50cm per second, so every hand feeds three times in
that time span. That should be close to the rhythm of the movement, I
guess.
> What is your maximum speed before you risk losing
> control of the rope?
I don't lose control. There is always one hand clamped fixed on the
rope, and both hands are always around the rope. How would I "lose
control"?
> How do you look to see where you are going if you're focussed on
> grabbing the rope?
I am not focused on grabbing the rope. It never leaves my hands.
David Kastrup
You were pretending I was talking about a belay when I was actually
talking about rappeling. Thanks, you adequately proved that you were
talking out of your ass here.
I never disputed that rope burn from _belay_ is a sure sign of wrong
device handling. Rope burn from rappeling, on the other hand, is
basically a sign that you are going faster than the heat dissipates.
Sustained friction over a distance is something that should not happen
when belaying, but which is the basic _principle_ of rappeling. My
way of handling the energy the belay device leaves for my own handling
(an eight probably leaves more than an ATC) mostly in elliptic arm
movements, your way of handling it in heating your palms.
David Kastrup
> If you analyse this you'll find that the angle of the rope through
> the device (hand-position) is far and away the number one factor in
> a successful catch, or at least it should be. The physics weenies
> may disagree but I'd guess the device dissipates about 98% of the
> energy .
Of the force. The brunt of the energy is taken by the rope. Very
little is lost at the delay except when rope slides through. Even
then, it is negligible in comparison to what rapping does.
> I guess what I'm saying is:
>
> 1) That the no-slide-hand-over-hand technique is a KLUDGE
> to compensate for poor device design and poor technique.
Poor technique? Nonsense. Device design? Things like a HMS or an
eight are not really design pieces like the complicated contraptions
nowadays on the market. If you think the main design goal should be
idiot proofness, that is your opinion. My tools need not be idiot
proof. It is sufficient if they can be handled by a person of my
intelligence and skills. I don't press my devices onto other
climbers.
> 2) The "sliding hand" technique has significant advantages,
> done properly.
Not "done properly", but "where appropriate". The single advantage is
speed. But it certainly is not a one-size-fits-all mantra.
> Experienced belayers can compensate for poor devices, but a good
> device with good technique is best.
Then why are you propagating suboptimal technique?
> I think they are targetting relative novices in the gym and are
> followers of what I call The American Paranoid Approach.
I've been dropped once because of bad belay technique. I don't need
to have this experience repeated.
David Kastrup
> Yup. This summer in Rifle a woman broke her foot in something like
> 6 places (all the bones in-line with her big toe) when this
> happened. It was a combination of her skipping a clip and a
> non-dynamic belay (heavy guy belaying with a Grigri).
The only thing you can do in such a situation is running and jumping
to soften the catch (and not pulling in too much when the kind of
swing does not make it appropriate). The Grigri is pretty brutal.
I hate things like missed clips as a belayer. Because I have to plan
ahead for "most tolerable catastrophe". Gets me tenser than the
climber.
Karl P
That's good, but I still don't see why you would ever teach a beginner
any other way.
This stupid up in the air above the belay device pinch slide trick is a
joke. It holds the belay device "open" for far longer than necessary,
and while the hands are least secure on the system.
If you're dealing with beginners that insist on doing something with
the climber end of a rope, a simple demonstration is usually all it
takes to convince them that the belay device is there for a reason. If
you're teaching someone to pinch/slide above the belay device simply
out of fear of them learning what the belay device is actually for,
then I'm scared.
Cheers,
Karl P
Simon Isbister
> David Kastrup wrote:
>
> Using a Muntner, there's no physical way you could be doing what this
> article proposes. Are any of your hands touching your butt at any point?
Hey, scratch if it itches, I always say. Just don't shake hands afterwards.
-s-
Simon Isbister
You didn't actually say "people getting dropped"- you said "accidents
attributed to improper belay". And I would have to agree that this happens
far more than twice a year. Short roping is definetely a belayer error. It
may not be one of the errors described in the R&I article (I haven't read
it, so I don't know one way or the other), but perhaps it should have been.
-s-
Simon Isbister
"Steve Pardoe" <ste...@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message
news:PcmdnSPtHKC...@pipex.net...
>
> You'll be relieved to learn that only a quarter of us are dead.
>
> It will only be half of the lead climbers, those getting dropped by the
> 50%
> of "wrong" belayers, who die this way ; the other half of all the climbers
> are their belayers, and quite safe (except from the criticism of learned
> journals, or being hit by falling leaders).
>
> Happy to clear that up ;-)
>
What is the sound of one hand belaying?
-s-
Simon Isbister
are talking about experienced, safe climbers here). I have often seen gyms
(or a summer camp I once worked at) that have VERY specific method that MUST
be used by their staff, if not also by their customers. I think it is
quite dangerous to take an experienced climber, and force them to change
their habits, just because some manual says this method is marginally better
than that method. For most of us, belaying has become as natural as
walking. I think if you tell someone to change their habits (assuming the
current habits are already safe), you definetely increase the possability of
a mistake.
-s-
Simon Isbister
>
> Dawn Alguard wrote:
>> I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
>> instinctively. It's not something I have to think about, belaying or
>> rappelling, no matter how many times I change my brake hand.
>
> I agree, regardless of how I'm belaying, I tend to know which rope is
> what, and what's in what hand.
>
>> As Julie said, I wouldn't teach a beginner that way.
>
> better, and we're all wrong, but you don't like your way enough to
> teach it? What exactly do you teach then? A mystical third way?
As an experienced climber, it is second nature for me to automatically know
which rope is in what hand for what purpose, etc, etc, etc. I do not assume
the same level of comfort for a beginner, so if I am teaching someone, I
will not teach them to change brake hands repeatedly. When they are
comfortable enough with the process of belaying that it is second
nature/instinct/ whatever you would like to call it, then they will know how
to safely change hands, and they won't need someone to teach it to them.
-s-
Simon Isbister
> "Karl P" <zinc...@tweak.net.au> writes:
>
>> I'm referring to people using a tube, using a munter technique. ie,
>> both rope strands going up, with hand swappage taking place above
>> the device.
>>
>> I call the munter technique it's own name, because I see farrrr more
>> people using it with a tube device than using it with an actual
>> munter.
>
> I find that weird. I can imagine people using the Munter like other
> devices because they don't know better, but the "Munter technique"
> does not make sense with _any_ belay device except a Munter (or does
> it with a GriGri? No idea, don't use them). So that would make it
> likely that somewhere in the downward spiral of incompetency, the
> teaching or myth would have started with a Munter.
I don't know if I have even seen someone treating a tube/plate EXACTLY like
a munter, but I definetley see people taking in rope with both hands up
above the device, and then bringint their brake hand down to brake. Makes
me quite nervous to watch. Is this what you were refering to, Karl?
-s-
Simon Isbister
> "Arold \"Al\" Green" <aro...@spamlessmchsi.com> writes:
>
>> This thread has convinced me even more that the "old fashioned" hip
>> belay is the best for trad climbing.
>> But, you sport climbers do need to use a belay device.
>
> The typical sport climber can't use a hip belay safely anyway because
> it would constitute an edge load.
lol- nice one.
Dawn Alguard
> This stupid up in the air above the belay device pinch slide trick is a
> joke. It holds the belay device "open" for far longer than necessary,
> and while the hands are least secure on the system.
Have you taught many beginners? They just seem to "get" pinch and slide
better. I agree that you spend most of your time with your hands in a
non-brake position but it seems to work anyway. In the US, it's also
the sensible thing to teach beginners because it's what they'll need to
know to pass the belay test at the gym. No sense confusing them with
two techniques. Once they understand the concept of the brake hand, all
other techniques will come naturally anyway. Well, all others except
that both-hands-wrapped-around-the-butt thing that R&I is trying to
propagate.
Dawn
Dawn Alguard
> "Will Niccolls" <null@nullsoft#$.com> wrote in message
>
>>Only two reported per year? I've personally witnessed that many. I'd
> put the actual number closer to a hundred(s) per year.
>
> I agree.
Let me be more specific. Most reported accidents have nothing to do
with the belayer losing control of the belay because of poor hand
positioning on the rope. If there is some huge number of unreported
accidents of this type, I'd have no way of knowing that, would I?
Perhaps if all these accidents were reported, R&I would have a point.
Until and unless that happens, it seems to me that sliding as a belay
technique is only dangerous on an imaginary level.
Dawn
Ken Muldrew
>Anyone see the article in R&I on the "right" way to belay?
What does the article say about taking pictures while belaying? I've
always found this tricky; especially with a hip belay.
Ken Muldrew
kmul...@ucalgazry.ca
(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)
David Kastrup
That's what the Ministry for Silly Walks is supposed to regulate.
David Kastrup
> Karl P wrote:
>
>> This stupid up in the air above the belay device pinch slide trick is a
>> joke. It holds the belay device "open" for far longer than necessary,
>> and while the hands are least secure on the system.
>
> Have you taught many beginners? They just seem to "get" pinch and
> slide better.
I bet they get letting their arms hang down even better.
> Well, all others except that both-hands-wrapped-around-the-butt
> thing that R&I is trying to propagate.
Dawn, are you sure you are not confusing this with stretching
exercises?
Brent Ware
> Yup. This summer in Rifle a woman broke her foot in something like
> 6 places (all the bones in-line with her big toe) when this happened.
> It was a combination of her skipping a clip and a non-dynamic belay
> (heavy guy belaying with a Grigri).
Calling jt512...
Will Niccolls
"David Kastrup"
> The corresponding reaction in America is that people stop reading the
> magazines, because when the magazines find that half the people belay
> suboptimally, of course they must be wrong.
No, no. Some stop reading because the mags are mostly fanzines with ads for
SUVs, increasingly geared toward the urban "climber" who spends money on
latte's, Kong sized bouldering pads, dope shorts and shells etc. Whoa.
That sounds like me.
Every climbing magazine out there peaked around issue 20. Alpinist is
hanging tough at 12 or whatever.
Will Niccolls
Thor Lancelot Simon
>Karl P wrote:
>
>> I'm referring to people using a tube, using a munter technique. ie,
>> both rope strands going up, with hand swappage taking place above the
>> device.
>>
>> I call the munter technique it's own name, because I see farrrr more
>> people using it with a tube device than using it with an actual munter.
>> times I've seen someone belaying a free climbing leader with a munter
>> by choice.
>>
>
>I've seen that being taught in gyms and outside courses too. In fact
>seems to be the "standard" "American" way (in quotes as probably is
>neither but I heard it described this way). I never realized this could
>be a vestige of Munter belaying technique.
I think it results from toprope GriGri use in gyms.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
Thor Lancelot Simon
>"Karl P" <zinc...@tweak.net.au> wrote
>> Dawn Alguard wrote:
>>
>> > I think that an experienced belayer knows where his brake hand is
>> > instinctively. It's not something I have to think about, belaying
>> > or rappelling, no matter how many times I change my brake hand.
>>
>> I agree, regardless of how I'm belaying, I tend to know which rope
>> is what, and what's in what hand.
>>
>> > As Julie said, I wouldn't teach a beginner that way.
>>
>> Why not?
>
>Having taught a few beginners ... 'why not' is very, very basic.
>
>Most beginners have *NO* idea of what a device does, which end of the
>rope the is, or how it happens. Their primary, overwhelming instinct
>is towards the climber-end of the rope: they know where that rope
>goes, and it's attached directly to the climber. They don't know what
>the device is, they don't trust it, so they don't really identify the
>rope on the other side of it.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes!
You just explained something I've been trying to understand for years.
Thanks!
David Kastrup
> In article <3scfqqF...@individual.net>, Julie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>Having taught a few beginners ... 'why not' is very, very basic.
>>
>>Most beginners have *NO* idea of what a device does, which end of
>>the rope the is, or how it happens. Their primary, overwhelming
>>instinct is towards the climber-end of the rope: they know where
>>that rope goes, and it's attached directly to the climber. They
>>don't know what the device is, they don't trust it, so they don't
>>really identify the rope on the other side of it.
>
> Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes!
>
> You just explained something I've been trying to understand for
> years.
>
> Thanks!
Ok, now that Thor finally knows (after trying to understand it for
years) what the rope on the other side of the belay device is good
for, can somebody please level my goosepimples again and explain why
not indeed half American climbers are dead?
Lord Slime
> > Yup. This summer in Rifle a woman broke her foot in something like
> > 6 places (all the bones in-line with her big toe) when this
> > happened. It was a combination of her skipping a clip and a
> > non-dynamic belay (heavy guy belaying with a Grigri).
>
> The only thing you can do in such a situation is running and jumping
> to soften the catch (and not pulling in too much when the kind of
> swing does not make it appropriate).
Running? Excuse me?
The belayer *did* jump, but it wasn't enough due to the size
of the overhang and the position of the last bolt under it.
> I hate things like missed clips as a belayer.
She didn't miss it, she skipped it on a redpoint attempt.
> Because I have to plan
> ahead for "most tolerable catastrophe". Gets me tenser than the
> climber.
Whatever.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> You were pretending I was talking about a belay when I was actually
> talking about rappeling.
I 'pretended'? You're the one who brought up rappelling in
order to support your argument for belaying. And since they
are similar...
> Thanks, you adequately proved that you were
> talking out of your ass here.
See below.
> I never disputed that rope burn from _belay_ is a sure sign of wrong
> device handling. Rope burn from rappeling, on the other hand, is
> basically a sign that you are going faster than the heat dissipates.
"Faster than the heat dissipates"? From your HAND?! What bullshit.
> Sustained friction over a distance is something that should not happen
> when belaying, but which is the basic _principle_ of rappeling.
You must never lower your partners. Oh well, whose ass is talkin'
now?
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
>
> > From the bits I have heard about that article, I don't think it too
> > unlikely that I am pretty much doing something as awkward and idiotic
> > as what this article proposes.
>
> Using a Muntner, there's no physical way you could be doing what this
> article proposes. Are any of your hands touching your butt at any point?
>
Nice!
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> eight are not really design pieces like the complicated contraptions
> nowadays on the market. If you think the main design goal should be
> idiot proofness, that is your opinion.
Excuse me, person talking out of his ass, did I say anything like
that?
> I don't press my devices onto other climbers.
You obviously don't have any such restraint with your opinions.
> > 2) The "sliding hand" technique has significant advantages,
> > done properly.
> Not "done properly", but "where appropriate". The single advantage is
> speed. But it certainly is not a one-size-fits-all mantra.
Wrong bucko. See my previous posts.
> I've been dropped once because of bad belay technique. I don't need
> to have this experience repeated.
Gee, THAT supports your opinions!
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> Not many falls happen by "surprise". Most falls are preceded by a lot of
> screaming, whining and commotion.
Bullshit Nate. It's clear you don't sport climb much. And you ignore
the falls when holds break, a foot suddenly slips, etc.
> It would take a pretty incompetent person
> using fairly bad equipment and horrible technique to not catch a fall
they
> are paying attention to. I've even caught a lot of falls using my hand
> above the device, such that the device didn't see any weight.
Oooo, you're so manly.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> > If you are rappelling and the rope is moving quickly,
> > smoothly and continuously, please explain how you will
> > maintain that using two hands, which are obviously
> > discrete clamping devices.
>
> I happen to have arms, so the hands are not fixed in place but are
> able to move along some distance with the rope. When the lower hand
> is clamped on the rope and travels upwards with it, the upper hand is
> unclamped and travels downwards. When the upper hand clamps on the
> rope and then travels upwards with the rope, the lower hand is
> unclamped and goes down again.
David, go get your dictionary and look up "discrete". What you
describe above is like a two line approximation to a curve. It's
discrete, by definition.
> > How fast can you go before it becomes "jerky"?
>
> It does not become jerky with my eight, but I'd guess about 2-3m/s
> would not be untypical if it is a straightforward descent. That would
> be around 6 times 50cm per second, so every hand feeds three times in
> that time span. That should be close to the rhythm of the movement, I
> guess.
Whatever David. Look up "porcine" while you've that dictionary open.
- Lord Slime
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
>> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> writes:
>> > If you are rappelling and the rope is moving quickly,
>> > smoothly and continuously, please explain how you will
>> > maintain that using two hands, which are obviously
>> > discrete clamping devices.
>>
>> I happen to have arms, so the hands are not fixed in place but are
>> able to move along some distance with the rope. When the lower hand
>> is clamped on the rope and travels upwards with it, the upper hand is
>> unclamped and travels downwards. When the upper hand clamps on the
>> rope and then travels upwards with the rope, the lower hand is
>> unclamped and goes down again.
>
> David, go get your dictionary and look up "discrete". What you
> describe above is like a two line approximation to a curve. It's
> discrete, by definition.
Discrete is "piecewise". A piecewise "approximation" of straight line
pieces to a straight line is indistinguishable from a straight line.
While the hands are clamped, they are moving with the constant speed
of the rope through the belay device, and there is always at least one
hand that is clamped, so that the constant speed is maintained.
Either you really don't get it or you are trying to smokescreen your
way out of that hole you are digging for yourself.
>> > How fast can you go before it becomes "jerky"?
>>
>> It does not become jerky with my eight, but I'd guess about 2-3m/s
>> would not be untypical if it is a straightforward descent. That
>> would be around 6 times 50cm per second, so every hand feeds three
>> times in that time span. That should be close to the rhythm of the
>> movement, I guess.
>
> Whatever David. Look up "porcine" while you've that dictionary
> open.
ἡ ὗς τὴν Ἀθηνᾶν, how appropriate. You really enjoy digging holes for
yourself.
melissa
little disappointed too) that almost everyone is still talking about
belaying.
Andy Gale
Dawn Alguard wrote:
Well, all others except
> that both-hands-wrapped-around-the-butt thing that R&I is trying to
> propagate.
OK, I looked thru the article again. I agree it is needlessly
complicated. But at no point in the article do they show or describe
both-hands-wrapped-around-the-butt.
Andy
Sue
"melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
we're a one topic at a time group.
we'll max out the flame war in a day or so, and then we'll sit back all
bloated and wait for the next spark.
John Peterson
accidents I've been involved with or have 1st hand knowledge of, 2
were bad belays by novice climbers. In both cases, the issue was not
moving the brake hand to a lock off position. So no matter how you
feed the rope, the important thing understanding where to move your
hand to stop the rope.
If Prime Climb is requiring pinch & slide now I'm glad I'm gone!
John
Steve Pardoe
"Simon Isbister" <simoni...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:4f98f.62996$Io.49721@clgrps13...
> What is the sound of one hand belaying?
Depends on whether there's anyone around to hear it.
S