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Boating All Out
Jun 27, 2012, 10:05:22 AM6/27/12
to
Pick the one who makes more sense, and go with that.
Justwait
or
http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_en
ergy.html
Also google Vanadium Redox flow Battery.
This stuff is happening pretty fast.
Good, because the obvious problem with solar/wind is storage.
I don't know how it will all work out, but it will.
If we don't listen to the nattering nabobs of negativism.
Here's another choice.
Justwait
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqokqE5dRmM
It's up to you.
Justwait
or
http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_en
ergy.html
Also google Vanadium Redox flow Battery.
This stuff is happening pretty fast.
Good, because the obvious problem with solar/wind is storage.
I don't know how it will all work out, but it will.
If we don't listen to the nattering nabobs of negativism.
Here's another choice.
Justwait
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqokqE5dRmM
It's up to you.
iBoaterer
Jun 27, 2012, 10:16:38 AM6/27/12
to
In article <MPG.2a54cf18b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
boa...@boating.com says...
Now you've went and confused him with facts! His insane lying rants will
surely go full steam ahead now!
boa...@boating.com says...
surely go full steam ahead now!
*e#c
Jun 27, 2012, 11:29:19 AM6/27/12
to
On Jun 27, 10:16 am, iBoaterer <b...@dah.net> wrote:
> In article <MPG.2a54cf18b3a0edd1989...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Both of you should shut the fuck up.
> In article <MPG.2a54cf18b3a0edd1989...@news.eternal-september.org>,
threep...@live.com
Jun 27, 2012, 12:10:22 PM6/27/12
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:05:22 AM UTC-4, Boating All Out wrote:
> Pick the one who makes more sense, and go with that.
>
> Justwait
>
> or
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_en
> ergy.html
He's a captivating and convincing speaker, and his battery is a pretty cool idea. However, he glosses over some serious and real problems and concerns.
> Pick the one who makes more sense, and go with that.
>
> Justwait
>
> or
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_en
> ergy.html
Antimony is toxic and in some forms can ignite or explode. Don't even get me started about magnesium. A 40 foot shipping container full of molten antimony and magnesium would be a high value target for someone wanting to wreak some serious havoc.
Also, for example, antimony melts at almost 1200 degrees F. That's going to be one hot sucker... wonder what hundred (thousands?) of those will do for global warming?
Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?
He knows all this stuff, but in his talk to that audience, it doesn't make sense to go into those things. That's why it's important to listen with a critical ear sometimes.
I wish him and all the people working on these kinds of problems the best of luck! They are sure gonna need it.
Wayne.B
Jun 27, 2012, 2:05:53 PM6/27/12
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT), threep...@live.com wrote:
>Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?
===
>Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?
Absolutely not - high efficiency solid state power inverters.
iBoaterer
Jun 27, 2012, 2:35:41 PM6/27/12
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In article <7oimu7pp3l8thcc4r...@4ax.com>,
waynebatr...@hotmail.com says...
There's many, many forms of alternative energy being worked on. Too many
to list.
waynebatr...@hotmail.com says...
to list.
threep...@live.com
Jun 27, 2012, 2:59:03 PM6/27/12
to
JustWait
Jun 27, 2012, 3:03:12 PM6/27/12
to
respond...
Oscar
Jun 27, 2012, 3:15:58 PM6/27/12
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iBoaterer
Jun 27, 2012, 3:22:05 PM6/27/12
to
In article <jsfldt$hr3$1...@dont-email.me>, motod...@gmail.com says...
Of course not, you know I'm right.
*e#c
Jun 27, 2012, 5:55:23 PM6/27/12
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Wayne.B
Jun 27, 2012, 6:11:03 PM6/27/12
to
There are solid state switching devices that will handle huge amounts
of power with efficiencies in the 90 to 95% range. That's a lot more
efficient than a typical motor-generator set. Of course heat is
related to the amount of conversion loss so higher efficiency means
less heat. I worked in a reserch lab at Cornell University back in
the late 1960s where we had a multi-million watt solid state inverter
for powering the magnet ring of a particle accelerator. The
electronics were not that exotic even then.
JustWait
Jun 27, 2012, 7:23:22 PM6/27/12
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Califbill
Jun 27, 2012, 7:54:03 PM6/27/12
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"Wayne.B" wrote in message
news:vh0nu7d0fdom6bu6u...@4ax.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and Tesla.
The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.
news:vh0nu7d0fdom6bu6u...@4ax.com...
The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and Tesla.
The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.
Wayne.B
Jun 27, 2012, 10:05:28 PM6/27/12
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 16:54:03 -0700, "Califbill"
<bmc...@nospamix.netcom.com> wrote:
>The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and Tesla.
>The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.
===
<bmc...@nospamix.netcom.com> wrote:
>The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and Tesla.
>The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.
Yes, for the most part. There has been some interesting work done
however using very high voltage DC for long distance transmission.
HVDC has been made possible by the development of high powered
semiconductors and has the advantage of fewer losses in some
environments. It also allows power to be transmitted between grids
that are out of phase with each other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
threep...@live.com
Jun 27, 2012, 10:21:04 PM6/27/12
to
5-10% of that is a LOT of heat to dissipate. That particle accelerator could go down for a week and it was not that big of a deal.
This is all cool stuff. We'll get there, where "there" is, one day.
thumper
Jun 28, 2012, 12:12:38 AM6/28/12
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On 6/27/2012 4:54 PM, Califbill wrote:
> The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and
> Tesla. The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.
High voltage DC has less loss than AC due to reduced skin effect and
> The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and
> Tesla. The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.
radiation loss and is used for long distance transmission.
thumper
Jun 28, 2012, 12:30:42 AM6/28/12
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On 6/27/2012 11:59 AM, threep...@live.com wrote:
> Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.
Why do it all in one place? The inverters could be distributed and
> Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.
tailored to smaller loads.
Eisboch
Jun 28, 2012, 7:40:39 AM6/28/12
to
wrote in message
news:c8f5404a-2238-42e7...@googlegroups.com...
Interesting presentation but storage is not the primary challenge.
Generation is the challenge.
The only viable alternative to oil and other fossil fuel energy
generation is nuclear until some other
major breakthough is discovered.
I got a kick out of his presentation though. It was obviously not to
a group of his peers in the scientific
community. Well done, but if that presentation had been given at a
technical convention it would
have been met with multiple challenges and hot debates from the
audience, not a standing ovation.
threep...@live.com
Jun 28, 2012, 9:00:05 AM6/28/12
to
Boating All Out
Jun 28, 2012, 9:36:46 AM6/28/12
to
In article <IvadnTIelvAi33HS...@giganews.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
"Nevada has the highest solar energy potential in the nation and is
already the number one state in per capita solar energy production. The
DOE estimates that 100 square miles of Nevada land could supply all U.S.
electricity needs with current (~10%) commercial efficiency rates. With
over 250 days of sunshine a year, Nevada is looking forward to a bright
solar future."
You can find similar all over the net. But the "100 square miles" is
wrong. Should read "100 miles square," which is 10,000 square miles.
That's about .0025 of U.S total square miles.
But solar panel efficiency is already about twice the 10% mentioned, so
that already halves the space needed. Things are moving fast in that
area.
Practically, the solar farms would be spread in many places over areas
with good sunshine.
What's lacking is storage, transmission, and a plan.
Same with wind, which also reduces the footprint of solar.
> The only viable alternative to oil and other fossil fuel energy
> generation is nuclear until some other
> major breakthough is discovered.
>
The only breakthroughs needed are storage, transmission, a plan, and
a way to remove the shackles of the mind.
The last, as always, is the most difficult challenge.
> I got a kick out of his presentation though. It was obviously not to
> a group of his peers in the scientific
> community. Well done, but if that presentation had been given at a
> technical convention it would
> have been met with multiple challenges and hot debates from the
> audience, not a standing ovation.
He is an entrepreneur, and his audience was investors.
Bill Gates has kicked in $15m.
Whether his approach is the best will be found out in the field.
Others are taking different approaches.
I did notice one nation publicized a wind energy plan, and has already
put it in motion.
Ethiopia. With Chinese aid.
Apparently the Ethiopians and Chinese are more forward leaning than the
run-of-the-mill American skeptic.
Damn, what happened to our can-do spirit on big things?
Seems this country is now full of can't-do political hacks.
If that doesn't change, most of the world will piss on us.
Rightfully so.
no...@jose.com says...
>
>
> Interesting presentation but storage is not the primary challenge.
> Generation is the challenge.
>
No. Storage and transmission are the main challenges.
>
> Interesting presentation but storage is not the primary challenge.
> Generation is the challenge.
>
"Nevada has the highest solar energy potential in the nation and is
already the number one state in per capita solar energy production. The
DOE estimates that 100 square miles of Nevada land could supply all U.S.
electricity needs with current (~10%) commercial efficiency rates. With
over 250 days of sunshine a year, Nevada is looking forward to a bright
solar future."
You can find similar all over the net. But the "100 square miles" is
wrong. Should read "100 miles square," which is 10,000 square miles.
That's about .0025 of U.S total square miles.
But solar panel efficiency is already about twice the 10% mentioned, so
that already halves the space needed. Things are moving fast in that
area.
Practically, the solar farms would be spread in many places over areas
with good sunshine.
What's lacking is storage, transmission, and a plan.
Same with wind, which also reduces the footprint of solar.
> The only viable alternative to oil and other fossil fuel energy
> generation is nuclear until some other
> major breakthough is discovered.
>
a way to remove the shackles of the mind.
The last, as always, is the most difficult challenge.
> I got a kick out of his presentation though. It was obviously not to
> a group of his peers in the scientific
> community. Well done, but if that presentation had been given at a
> technical convention it would
> have been met with multiple challenges and hot debates from the
> audience, not a standing ovation.
Bill Gates has kicked in $15m.
Whether his approach is the best will be found out in the field.
Others are taking different approaches.
I did notice one nation publicized a wind energy plan, and has already
put it in motion.
Ethiopia. With Chinese aid.
Apparently the Ethiopians and Chinese are more forward leaning than the
run-of-the-mill American skeptic.
Damn, what happened to our can-do spirit on big things?
Seems this country is now full of can't-do political hacks.
If that doesn't change, most of the world will piss on us.
Rightfully so.
Oscar
Jun 28, 2012, 9:43:52 AM6/28/12
to
concurrently over the same transmission line?
iBoaterer
Jun 28, 2012, 9:57:51 AM6/28/12
to
In article <MPG.2a5619eba...@news.eternal-september.org>,
boa...@boating.com says...
It's big oil that has tainted the minds of the head in the sand set.
boa...@boating.com says...
Wayne.B
Jun 28, 2012, 10:56:55 AM6/28/12
to
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:36:46 -0500, Boating All Out
<boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>Seems this country is now full of can't-do political hacks.
>If that doesn't change, most of the world will piss on us.
>Rightfully so.
===
<boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>Seems this country is now full of can't-do political hacks.
>If that doesn't change, most of the world will piss on us.
>Rightfully so.
Ayyup.
thumper
Jun 28, 2012, 12:01:11 PM6/28/12
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Califbill
Jun 28, 2012, 1:53:06 PM6/28/12
to
"thumper" wrote in message news:jsgljo$6to$1...@dont-email.me...
------------------------------
Where?
The main lines in Central Calif are 500kv ac
Where?
The main lines in Central Calif are 500kv ac
Wayne.B
Jun 28, 2012, 4:42:59 PM6/28/12
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