Prices of Used Boats ?!?
richa...@usa.com
I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
how to understand used boat prices.
The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing
Low Retail and Average Retail prices.
The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.
Here is where the problem comes in:
The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.
¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
people to make higher offers?
¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
buyers who don't know the market?
¤ Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market
prices?
I've heard that today we are in a "buyer's market". Is this a myth? Or
is it only true for certain boat models/sizes/ages? Is it normal to
find prices on 10-year old boats above their prices BRAND NEW in 1995
?!?
Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the
official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation
to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter,
explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker
just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by
registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller?
Or should I hire a BUYER'S BROKER to defend my interest... and possibly
jump into the snake pit?
Your mystified rec.boats buddy,
Rich
J
commision, fees. The so-called official price guides are neither
authoritative or official. You decide what amount to offer. Typical
broker tactic is to dismiss your offer, attempting to shame you into
offering a higher amount. That broker (think "used car sales") is merely
following proven negotiating tactics. If you have not studiied
negotiating tactics then you may be at their mercy. If you really really
want that boat, they will smell that and play you for all they can get.
Be cool. Be willing to walk away. Know prices of boats IN YOUR AREA.
Snooty high-class marina areas tend to call for higher boat prices.
Hope you find what you want at a good price!
J
>richa...@usa.com wrote in news:1111388088.332314.281900>
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
goul...@aol.com
The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
price rating lists.
¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
people to make higher offers?
¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
buyers who don't know the market?
********************************
Used boat pricing works like this:
Unless you're looking at a little trailer boat that the dealer accepted
on trade, the used boats in a broker's inventory are not owned by the
broker. They are consigned to the broker by the owners of the boats.
The owners of the boats set the asking prices, not the consignees. The
broker is expected to spend a great deal of time and no small amount of
advertising money in securing a buyer for the consigned vessels. Under
the typical arrangement, the broker is out of pocket for all expenses
and will not be reimbursed unless he or she finds a buyer for the boat
and earns a commission.
For this reason, most brokers resist listing boats that are
ridiculously overpriced. At the end of the listing contract period, the
owner can simply say "thanks, too bad you couldn't sell my $90,000 boat
for $200,000" and walk away with no further obligation to the broker.
Although the sellers, not the brokers, set the asking prices most
sellers have included a good bit of "negotiating" room in the asking
price- fully expecting that a buyer will come along and hope to pay
something less than full sticker. (Imagine that!)
How much room depends on a lot of factors, but there is usually a lot
more room in the initial price offered when a boat first comes to
market than there will be several months later after the disappointed
seller discovers that dime-a-dozen suckers aren't in season right now
and the broker has finally influenced the seller to face reality with
regard to likely sale price.
Throw the price guidebook away. Boat prices are not only seasonal,
they're regional. Boats that sell well and for high prices in Florida
can go begging in the Pacific NW, and the reverse is often true as
well.
Your goal should not be to buy a boat at some arbitrary price printed
in a guidebook, but to buy a boat at or below its current market value
in your region.
Here's a procedural tip for you: Find the boat you want and make an
offer. No matter what amount you offer, the broker will hope to
influence you to amend it to a higher number before he takes your offer
to the seller.
(Yes, in nearly all states the broker is required to present your
*written* offer (with deposit) to the seller. The broker is not
required to present "wouldja takes?"
without earnest money. Cash talks, and we all know what walks.)
Before caving in to the broker's demand for a higher offer, ordinarily
based on a proclamation that your offer is *way below* what similar
boats are selling for in your area, you can ask the broker for a little
substantiation. Have the broker use his Boatwizard password on the
yachtwold website and pull up the sold boat database, for your area,
showing the listing and selling prices of similar boats during the last
few months. If the book is way off and the market is truly higher
(often the case, especially on boats that are the most suitable for use
in a given location), the report will confirm that. The seller should
not be expected to sell you his 34' Pileknocker for $110,000 simply
because the National Automobile Dealers Association says he should, if
everybody else selling the same model in your area recently has been
able to command $160,000.
Richardo also asked:
Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the
official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation
to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter,
explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker
just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by
registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller?
*************
Don't plan on the broker disclosing the name and address of his
consignor before you have inked a finalized deal.
You wouldn't do this, of course, but there are buyers who will do
*anything* to get the seller's name and address from the broker simply
so they can contact the seller and try to engineer some "work around"
to cut the broker out of the deal, (assuming that the seller will then
cut the price by at least some portion of the commission that the
broker actually already earned by finding him a buyer for his boat).
Sending a letter hoping to "educate" the seller about the value of the
boat he is trying to sell is probably going to tick the seller off
about as badly as anything you could do, save one. Try sending a
letter, prior to survey, outlining all the deficiencies from which you
believe his boat is suffering. That would be worse. Telling the seller,
"your boat is overpriced, a piece of crap, or both" won't do much to
inspire the seller to work with you to arrive at a price that is
affordable to you as well as fair to him.
Most of the time, that's about as well as you will really do: A price
that is affordable to you, as well as fair to the seller. It isn't
realistic to expect to buy a decent boat far, far, below the asking
prices of any similar boat in your region simply because the NADA book
says you should.
One line that frustrated brokers have been known to use when extremely
aggressive buyers want to start with an unrealistic book price and then
dicker downward from there is "See if the guy who wrote the book has a
boat for sale at that price."
A final safety net, price wise. Even if you are planning to pay cash
for the boat, apply for a loan. If you are really nervous about paying
too much, apply for a loan at a couple of competing banks, credit
unions, or marine mortgage lenders. (You can always change your mind at
the last minute and pay cash instead).
Lenders are usually very, very, cautious about boat loans. Boats are
the first thing to be surrendered when the economy goes into a soft
cycle and unemployment ticks upward, so savvy lenders will want to be
sure that your boat isn't financed for a lot more than it could be
resold for, maybe in a soft market. (And, of course, so will you).
Marine mortage lenders, particularly, will have a front row view of
local sales price trends.
Some credit unions, etc, simply go by the NADA book.
When I was a broker, I had an amusing conversation with a credit union
loan officer once. He said, "We can't do the deal, the boat is way
overpriced."
"Why would you say that? We sold two almost identical boats in the last
several months, one at this price and the other just a little bit
more."
"Our underwriting standards require us to use the NADA book if we're
going to do a boat loan."
"How many boat loans do you do?"
"We actually haven't done a boat loan for many, many, months. Every
boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now."
Final observation: If every boat price in the area is way over your
guidebook numbers, please believe there is not a vast conspiracy
working against you and it's not that "the rest of the army is out of
step." :-)
Good luck, hope you find the boat of your dreams at a fair, perhaps
even advantageous, and affordable price.
Stanley Barthfarkle
sales commission. Buy from an individual and have a boat survey done
instead.
goul...@aol.com
****************
There's a goofy comment for you. There are a lot of FSBO boats on the
market priced so ridiculously high that no broker will spend the money
required to market the boat. Just because a boat is FSBO doesn't mean
the seller has reduced his or her price by 10% so they can save the
*buyer* any money. Most FSBO sellers want to get every dime as much
selling privately as the broker could sell the same boat for. FSBO is
primarily concerned with what he's putting into his own pocket, and
that will be as much as he can possibly extract from yours.
Get a survey done *instead* of using a broker? Yowzers! Using a broker
is no substitute for a survey. Always survey, whether FSBO or broker. I
wonder if everybody actually has a clear understanding of the roles of
a broker and a surveyor in a boat transaction? Sometimes I see things
that persuade me there may be a lot of folks underinformed or
misinformed on these issues.
Short Wave Sportfishing
>Hi Guys & Gals,
>
>I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
>how to understand used boat prices.
>
>The 2005 Guide to Powerboats has a listing of used boat prices showing
>Low Retail and Average Retail prices.
>
>The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
>customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.
>
>Here is where the problem comes in:
>
>The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
>purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
>price rating lists.
>
>¤ Is this due to a Poker style "bluff" of the sellers trying to push
>people to make higher offers?
Sometimes. Sometimes, it's a local thing. Some types of boats sell
better in one location than another. For instance, I have a Ranger
Bay Boat which is not a great seller up here in the North East, but if
it was in Florida, that's a whole different market for this type of
boat.
>¤ Is it due to the brokers trying to swindle unexpected first time
>buyers who don't know the market?
I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, brokered boats are higher than what
the price quides show, but it's more a case of taking the high average
figure and adding 10% for negotiating room. Most brokers are fairly
up front about a boat, but then again they don't' go digging into how
sound the boat is usually taking the owner's word for it.
>¤ Are the Price Guides totally off base when it comes to real market
>prices?
In my experience, no. Then again, the type of boats I have purchased
fall into a different category. If you are talking bass boats for
example, then they are fairly accurate. Mid-range boats like 18 to 25
foot runabouts, pocket cruisers, etc., they are a little less
accurate. Larger boats, they are a guideline only based on market
averages.
The one that I've found is almost dead on is the Regional NADA price
guide. Again, in the larger boats, it's a guideline, but a fairly
accurate one. I need to emphasize that that for larger boats, that is
a guideline, not a dead accurate price guide.
>I've heard that today we are in a "buyer's market". Is this a myth? Or
>is it only true for certain boat models/sizes/ages? Is it normal to
>find prices on 10-year old boats above their prices BRAND NEW in 1995
>?!?
Heh - the used boat market is flooded. Most dealers won't trade boats
anymore there are so many used boats on the market. Part of the
reason for the rather higher prices is financing - folks naturally
would like to recoup part of their costs or they got into the boat
over and above what they should have, etc. Nobody likes to take a
loss on a boat.
With respect to prices on 10 year old boats, if you are seeing prices
above and beyond prices when brand new you need to expand your search
considerably. If you are talking 18 to 20 year old boats, then that's
a possibility considering inflation or machinery upgrades, etc.
With respect to pricing, locally with most brokers around here (CT and
environs), prices seem to be in line with what the boat actually is
worth and that includes the larger boats. Some people are trying to
get more than what they are worth, but most are in line. Folks know
the used boat market is flooded and if they can't find one here, they
can find one there.
The problem is that most boats are being dragged below their actual
value by the sheer amount of used boats on the market. And it's only
going to get worse.
>Basically, I'd like to make offers on boats which correspond to the
>official pricing on professional lists. Do Brokers have an obligation
>to communicate my offers to sellers? Can I write a seller a letter,
>explaining my offer, and will it reach the seller? Or will the Broker
>just put it in the shredder? Do I need to send it notarized and by
>registered mail, just to make sure it reaches the seller?
No. totally ignore what the broker says, write a check that reflects
their policy (if the broker requires more than 10% as a good faith
offer, then run for the exit and find another broker), present your
offer and he/she is obligated by law to present your offer to the
seller. If it's a clean boat to your eye and you know what the
guideline says for that particular boat, then make that offer - it's
as simple as that.
Now, the buyer can counter offer and so on which is what normally
happens. The ethics of the situation prevents the broker from saying
to the buyer "we can get more for your boat" (this does not mean that
the broker does that) and the seller has the right to refuse the offer
or negotiate - simple as that.
It's like a house contract. Put contingencies into the offer contract
like acceptable (to the buyer) survey and such as that.
A lot of times, if the survey produces some problems, then it's
negotiation time. I'll give you a for instance. Last summer, I
looked at a 28 Topaz that to my eye, needed some help, but was what I
thought was in decent shape. The broker said the owner wanted 19K
firm, but I offered 16K which was about what the boat was worth. She
was obligated to present the offer which the buyer accepted. My
contingency was acceptable survey. Survey done, boat is in tougher
shape than I figured. I changed my offer based on the survey to 8K
because the repairs were going to be extensive plus the boat had to be
transported by land to where I could work on it - it's wasn't sea
worthy. The owner came back with a 10K counter offer, but I passed -
it wasn't worth it to me. Good Faith funds returned and I moved on.
Oh, one more thing - don'f fall for the administration fee bit.
>Or should I hire a BUYER'S BROKER to defend my interest... and possibly
>jump into the snake pit?
Nah - that's an over complication. You should protect your own
interest by adding contingencies and forcing a survey - etc.
If there was one piece of advice I can offer that is really important
is that you should talk to a lot of brokers and look at a lot of
boats. Compare new prices to older boat prices - do a lot of
homework.
Knowledge is the best defense.
Good luck.
Later,
Tom
richa...@usa.com
Got that straight - I was just wondering how negotiable - boats which
sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years
later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is
tough going selling boats.
So far my experience with brokers is strange. One broker is very nice,
ready to go to every effort to help the sale happen. Unluckily I
changed my mind about that boat. The other broker is nasty, boasting
about his boat's superiority (he did the custom woodwork himself) and
telling me he already has a contract, but his ads have remained
unchanged for the past 3 weeks since, and he won't reply to my emails.
Cheers,
Rich
Tom
>Hi Guys & Gals,
>
>I'm sure you've all had experience buying boats. I'm seeking advice on
>how to understand used boat prices.
>
>The online NADA Used Boat Prices shows retail prices which you can
>customize by dialing in all the features and options on a given boat.
>
>Here is where the problem comes in:
>
>
>The boats for sale at brokers - in the brand and model I am looking to
>purchase - are listed at around DOUBLE their official pricing on the
>price rating lists.
While looking for a center console recently I found that most used
boats were priced somewhere around the NADA list. Some were slightly
below- some slightly above and a few were substantially above. After
looking for several months and having an interest in several I went to
the boat show and found what I was looking for and only cost a few
thousand more than the used boats I had selected. This boat had all of
the features I wanted plus a warranty. I never thought I would buy a
new boat but I found the used market was not as soft as I expected it
to be so I took the plunge. NADA is a pretty good guide but local
market demands will have a much more serious impact on pricing. Good
luck with your search.
Tom.............
goul...@aol.com
sold new in 1995 for under $100k going for $55k to $105k ten years
later. Could make sense in a sellers' market, but last I heard it is
tough going selling boats.
*******************
Right now it's tough going finding enough boats to sell. Every broker I
know is doing a land-office business. At least here in the Pacific NW,
it is a seller's market, not a buyer's. Incredibly low interest rates
and a local economy that is beginning to recover have combined to bring
out the buyers.
There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new
price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the
fact than it did when new.
I will be aboard a boat today that sold in the early 1980's, almost a
quarter century ago, for about $80,000. The boat is a decent value
today at $120,000. Factors involved include prices for comparable brand
new boats now marked at between 300-400,000- and the observation that
120,000 2005 dollars won't buy what 80,000 dollars would have brought
in 1980.
goul...@aol.com
Everything is negotiable. Everything. The boat's price, the brokers
commision, fees.
*******
By the way: if the broker decides to negotiate the commission it will
be with the seller (who has to pay the commission) rather than the
buyer.
Don White
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111420326.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
snip......
> There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
> depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
> brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
> out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
> boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
> same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
> that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
> Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new
> price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
> the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the
> fact than it did when new.
>
My Sandpiper 565 might be an example.
Brand new when production started in 1974 a basic model cost less than $2k
CDN.....last year of manufacture in 1992 ...little over $9k CDN. Used
models now normally sell for $ 4500-5500 CDN and I've seen some advertised
over $ 8k.
richa...@usa.com
I much appreciate your advice, I realize from the groups that you're a
pro and have even worn the white shoes. <grin>
But I'm no angry husband shooting out of the bedroom window, just a
bloke looking to sink his loose change into a floating mistress, less
trouble than a walking one - even if it sinks!
I guess all the guidebooks and NADA and BUC etc. are way off in pricing
the boat I want (used to want?) because I've only seen one that did
actually sell at the guidebook price. (Got ready to arrange survey to
find another guy snatch it up faster than me.) Banks which think that
"every boat on the market is pretty well overpriced right now" may not
have it all figured wrong. Consumers have been known to get carried
away in buying stuff for far more than it is worth rationally. Modern
Marketing is chock full of concepts and techniques to get people to
attribute rational value to things for irrational reasons. You can
argue that things are worth what you can get some people to pay -
because the market sets the prices. This is why an egg is worth a
million dollars to a banker in a famine. This is why a glass of water
is worth a billion dollars to Bill Gates in the middle of the Sahara.
But is that a reason why an egg or a glass of water are really worth
that much?
A given boat might be worth more to somebody else in some other
situation. But its "real value" is what it is worth to you. The same
holds true for Dot Com Stocks. Were they really worth as much as what
some people paid for them? Ask those who lost their entire estates in
the Stock Market bubble, and just maybe, ask a few who bought boats
without being properly informed and prudent. I may not understand the
subtleties of the used boat market, but to me, a ten year old boat is
worth LESS than it cost ten years ago when new. Banks need to have
foresight to avoid defaulting loans. Thus they also need hindsight and
cannot allow irrational pricing to guide what they will underwrite.
If these boats are really worth close to what their advertised prices
are, I'm glad to hear that the used boat market isn't as rough as folks
have claimed. I didn't realize that 10 year old 30 foot cruisers sold
between $50k and $100k like hotcakes. The price guidebooks all put
average retail at around $30k, so I guess I should either throw away
the guidebooks or forget about buying a boat. 10,000 lbs of 10 year old
plastic at $10 per pound, maybe I should have invested in plastic
futures? Maybe it appreciates with age like old wines, getting ooohs
and aaahs at every gelcoat crack like antiques with wormholes.
Please don't find my irony disrespectful. When you say "Throw the price
guidebook away." you must be sensitive to the fact that we know you
used to be a broker. It risks smacking of selfserving logic, even if
that is the furthest thing from your intentions and you no longer are
active at that job.
Broker has POWER. They know the market like nobody else. They have
access to all the databases. They have informal networks. They've heard
all the stories from colleagues on how all these pigeons come along for
an expensive plucking. There's a sucker born every day, and most of
them eventually want to buy a boat. They may be honest and altruistic,
wishing a happy life to buyers and sellers alike. But then again they
may not. And with the power advantage they have over buyers, we're in
deep trouble unless prepared for the worst, even if hoping for the
best.
Regardless of the worth of Price Guidebooks - throw away or not -
someone here isn't doing their job right, either the pricing
authorities, or the brokers. Why do banks and insurance companies use
them? Because they are worthless and should be thrown away? Because
they only know loans and not boats? Or because they obey principles of
logic in price determination, and not the going rate for a sucker? A
twofold difference is a 100% error. Somebody is 100% wrong, unless each
is 50% blind.
How can the Owners of the boats be the ones who set the asking price?
This may be true legally, but in practice, who would have the gumption
to try to sell their boat for more than double book value? Obviously
they are ill advised by overly greedy brokers who, by polluting the
market by overpriced units, are maybe a big part of the used boat
market's sales difficulties. Who else tells them what price is the
right price? Nobody on commission will be happy to sell for a lower
profit a boat that they can hope to hussle some innocent buyer with
using the emotional appeal of a boat as bait. The sellers are thus
hostage to an unethical brokerage situation. Clearly, the system is
broken.
I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially as you are a valued
contributor to these groups and have been candid on many occasions
proving your good faith. But a newbie buyer is bound to see things from
a different standpoint than a seasoned seller. Maybe, just maybe,
there's some sense in the counterpoint too.
If having the market "controlled" by brokers isn't an ideal world, the
problem remaining is that in a market dominated by brokers, those
sellers who would be willing to sell at "normal" rational used boat
prices take the easy road and often choose sell through professionals.
Brokers then talk up their boat and flatter their egos and appeal to
human greed, some say it is just to get the listing, but maybe brokers
also dream of manipulating buyers into paying more? Those who are
willing to take the hard path of selling their boat themselves without
a broker are either very rarely doing so because they have become wise
and wary of brokers. It is likely that they are folks who are even more
greedy than brokers, and think the broker's overestimation of their
boat is low (after all it has been enobled by their ownership, hasn't
it?). They will believe that they can sucker you better than a pro, and
will want more $ plus the broker's fee to boot. Not exactly ideal
sellers to deal with.
To resume I'm not about to make an offer on a boat at close to its
ancient new price, especially when its best years are gone and NOW is
when the problems are pushing their owners to unload them. They have
roughly 400 hours on gas engines, and enough wear that the cosmetics
will soon show that their better days are over. When I buy something
new, I expect to sell it for something less down the road a decade
later of wear and tear.
Just possibly there is a MicroMarket for 30 foot pocket cruisers due to
recent gas price hikes - are folks downsizing their boats trying to cut
fuel costs? Most brokers seem to say that those bailing out of their
financial shipwrecks are selling to move up to a bigger boat. Even a
lame newbie like me should know better!
For those of us nonetheless willing to endure a "beating" in terms of
purchase costs, maintenance costs, marina costs, upgrade costs, repair
costs, and unexpected costs, as well as those I've forgotten, we must
enter the (m)arena like Gladiators - sizing up the odds of surviving
the encounter. And fom what I've seen so far, unless some of you folks
in the know give me some failproof pointers, I'm dead meat looking for
a barbecue grill.
Telling me that dealer list prices are correct, and that one can make
offers between 5 and 10% under - and calling such offers LOW - makes me
wonder if somebody has been eating strange brownies? Broker used boat
prices are obviously over inflated, well beyond what anyone might
believe is ordinary pricing with a small margin of built-in negotiating
elbow room. Either brokers have a tougher job than I thought with
sellers needing delirious cajoling over months of weening until they
realize they can't actually make a profit on owning their boat for
years, or they're out to empty my wallet with a vengeance. I'll let you
decide which is more likely.
My market search is nationwide, and thanks to your fine advice, I will
start making my offers in writing, clearly the only way to go. However,
I'm a bit worried about mailing brokers which I do not trust
intrinsically my personal check for 10% of the amount, before even
scheduling a survey and making sure the boat is sound. However, I guess
that there is no other way to get a broker to communicate a "low offer"
(read real market price for this buyer). Heck, if I was selling a boat
and not getting any nibbles for a year, I'd consider an honest offer
which matches Price Guidebook numbers. Why wouldn't other people?
I much appreciate your friendly advice about seller psychology, and
what not to do when making an offer. I will follow it strictly, and
keep the bickering to monetary issues, ie what I'll pay and what
they'll take, without trying to explain or argue. It will save everyone
strife, and keep the situation sane. Especially if, as you suggest, it
will only cause aggravation and give opposite results to those hoped
for.
So I thank you for your advice, which I will respect dutifully, even if
I don't quite see eye to eye with your philosophy concerning pricing of
used boats: definitely not the price that a lonely fool, or even an
army of suckers, would be willing to pay given the chance to lose their
shirt.
Cheers,
Rich (not that rich, you will notice from my posting)
richa...@usa.com
richa...@usa.com
You're right math wise, but it seems that the price difference I'm
looking at is way more than just a 10% commission. Something else
entirely is definitely going on here. Looks to me like a boat market
bubble having a hard time busting slowly, with brokers doing all they
can to keep it from happening even if it means killing sales. Is it now
a waiting game until they skirt bankruptcy? Just a wild uneducated
guess...
Thanks anyways for your suggestion,
Rich
richa...@usa.com
Honored I'm sure that you grace this thread with your renouned wisdom.
I've enjoyed reading your postings with relish time and time again!
I guess that I've figured that there is no "official pricing" on boats,
as it is a largely unregulated market, and because many folks don't buy
them based on rationality but after getting hooked at a Marina.
I can well understand that used prices are not an exact rocket science.
Among the zillions of points of view one can envisage, I see two
present in this thread which tend to cancel one another out:
A. Past prices make up the market, and thus an average of all prices
of boats sold is the real used boat price. The premise here is that
nobody in their right mind will sell you a comparable boat for
substantially less than another one might have sold for in the recent
past. This approach is however fundamentally flawed, because it fails
to take into account the people involved. Some folks might find it of
great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other
folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their
initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving
the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the
real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a
seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon
costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered
with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional
attachment of either party distorting the mix.
B. Extrapolations of technical and financial parameters establish the
value of the boat. Similarly to a cost accounting process, the
materials used, their ageing characteristics, their condition, a survey
of the boat, its features and options would constitute a rational basis
for estimating the value and price of a used boat. This approach also
fails to take into account the human factor. We're dealing with
emotional and sometimes irrational people who invest their ego and not
just their money into boats. We're talking dreams, aspirations,
expectations, and even neuroses getting projected into a boat's
purchase or sale. This means that in some cases both the buyer and the
seller make a deal and each feels that they've been burned. It can also
mean, though surely less often, that each party feels that they've made
out like bandits with a sweet sweet deal. Selling a used car I once
experienced that. It had given me so much trouble I advertised it well
under market price. The buyer was so excited he mailed me a check
without even seeing the car. He was a happy sailor. I was happy too, I
would have paid to get rid of it!
So please forgive me if I don't align my checkbook with actual sale
prices. Other people paid those prices for their own reasons which may
be sensibly different than mine. Prices tend to be "all over the place"
especially when, as you justly state, there is no organized used boat
market. So I'll keep my own grey cells as my best basis of pricing,
whether books, brokers or sellers think otherwise. I guess the real
market price I will end up paying (this will then become a "real" past
market price) is going to be what I'll be willing to pay = a lot of
boat for a lot of money.
Best,
Rich
richa...@usa.com
goul...@aol.com
There are two factors to consider whenever we buy anything. Market, and
value.
When the dot.com craze was in full swing, many people wondered whether
fledgling companies with no history of profitability could really be
worth 10 times their assets right out of the gate and whether those
prices should be doubling every few weeks (or faster). That was
certainly a legitimate question about the "value" of those stocks.
However, if the same people wondering about the value of dot.com stocks
actually wanted to own any, they would ultimately be forced to do so at
the market price, whether that price was in line with the subjective
values they assigned to the stocks, or not.
Fortunately the market for used boats isn't as rigid and uniform as the
market for securities.
The principle remains much the same, however. Market values are
established by what the boats actually bring in the marketplace, even
when a good case can be made that the boat *shouldn't* be worth that
much.
If it's any comfort to you, realize that the broker will usually be
grinding on the seller to come down to a number closer to your price at
least as hard as he or she will be grinding on you to come up to a
number closer to the seller's asking price.
As far as sending earnest money to out of state brokers you have never
met and for boats you have never seen.......don't do it, please. See if
you can find one local broker you like and trust, even if that party
doesn't have a listing right now that matches your want list. (In most
areas of the country, 10-year-old 30-foot cruisers are likely to be
somewhat scarce at the $30,000 level). Use the local broker you like
and trust to represent your offers. If you make a deposit on an out of
state boat through your local broker your money goes into the trust
account of the
local guy you like and know- not some guy 1000 miles away who may be
doing business out of the phone booth at the back of a waterfront bar.
Your broker will share the sales commission with the listing broker, so
it won't cost the seller any more and shoudn't cost you an extra dime.
richa...@usa.com
Your take on honest brokers is certainly a refreshing one. Glad to see
your experience was so positive.
You're quite right about the local thing. Even the used boat price
guides, with all their much decried enexactitude, say that one must
adjust prices for several regions, lower prices being in Florida and on
the East Coast. I noticed higher advertised prices yet in Canada, I
wonder why (yes, they were converted to US dollars)...
I have a hard time believing that brokers are selling boats using
averaged real prices, even if the higher ones, that is unless they
average the 2 highest prices of the past 5 years? When a boat is listed
at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of
listings at double that or more, what gives? An extra forty thousand
dollars on a thirty thousand dollar boat sure sounds like some pretty
hefty "price padding". Maybe buyers in this price range and boat
category (sedan cruisers) don't look into their purchases in depth? Do
they just listen to a broker telling them the monthly payment and
getting them to dream of fishing on a lazy sunny afternoon? Hmmm...
this is one market phenomenon which definitely isn't clear. Either
there is a micro-category of folks with too few brain cells, too much
cash, or both all wanting the same boat, or these boats aren't selling
for nearly the amount at which they are advertised.
Thanks for suggesting that I steer clear of hiring a Buyer's Broker. I
guess that it is no solution, and that I'd only get the same problems
in double if not supersized! You're right on the money when you say
"Knowledge is the best defense" so thanks for the knowledge shared, on
my behalf and for others in the same situation checking out the
newsgroups. <cool>
Cheers,
Rich
richa...@usa.com
richa...@usa.com
Thanks for your futher analysis.
QUOTE:
"There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new
price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the
fact than it did when new."
END QUOTE
I'm sure you've nailed it here: the new boat market is still in a
bubble. I've seen the exact same model 12.5 meter boat made by Aquanaut
which was offered to me NEW at a boatshow ten years ago for $100k
selling now for over $300k. If this holds true for used boats, some of
us may well wait to buy until the economy gets hit with hard enough a
sidebelt that some boatbuilders either close up shop or crunch their
pricing numbers significantly lower.
However, I don't necessarily think that you can establish a positive
mathematical relation between new and used boat prices, as they are
possibly not the same market population. For example, I for one would
never buy a new boat at today's prices although I regretfully didn't do
so ten years ago as per the example above. This may hold true for the
pricing of very recent used boats, when due to highly justified sticker
shock induced by market gouging pricing, new boat buyers try to soften
the blow by passing on the initial depreciation to a previous owner.
But those buying 10 to 20 year old boats are usually not, to my mind,
debating spending $200k on new versus $60k on used. Just my humble
opinion.
Respectfully,
Rich
richa...@usa.com
Thanks for your futher analysis.
QUOTE:
"There is a simple answer to your question concerning boat
depereciation. The boat that sold for $100,000 ten years ago and still
brings $100,000 today does so not because the boat hasn't aged or worn
out, but because the same boat today now sells for $200,000 new. Used
boat prices are justified by comparing to the cost of purchasing the
same thing new, more like houses than cars. (Likely due to the fact
that unlike cars, boats aren't shot after 5-6 years of average use).
Unlike real estate, most boats won't actually appreciate but if the new
price goes up high enough, fast enough, an older boat often sells for
the same amount of pre-inflated dollars ten years or 20 years after the
fact than it did when new."
END QUOTE
richa...@usa.com
Glad to see you made good, especially if you're looking to sell your
Sandpiper 565. So it looks like there aren't quite enough boats out
there to satisfy demand sufficiently - unless there are too many of
some types of boats that can't find buyers, and categories of actively
marketed overpriced new boats creating a strong demand for too few used
models which meet the same demand?!?
Wow is this stuff getting confusing.
Rich
Short Wave Sportfishing
snippage ~~
>When a boat is listed
>at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
>Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of
>listings at double that or more, what gives? An extra forty thousand
>dollars on a thirty thousand dollar boat sure sounds like some pretty
>hefty "price padding"
I have to be honest, I haven't seen that in the past year or two.
I've been looking for a mid-sized boat between my 20 foot Ranger
(which I decided to keep - more on that in a second) and a 31 foot
Contender fish-around. I'm still looking. Most of the boats I've
looked at have been around 20% higher than what I would have expected,
but I don't think that's totally uncalled for - give some negotiation
room.
With respect to the Ranger, I had it on the market and actually had a
buyer for the boat - $1,000 less than I paid for it four years ago. I
added a T-top when I bought it, the engine had been completely gone
through top to bottom, the trailer had all new bunks, wheel bearings,
stainless steel discs and new pads, the gel coat is perfect with one
small whoopsie which I was willing to have repaired, new batteries for
the trolling motor, - in short, I've put a lot in it and felt that the
thousand or so off it's value was more for my mental well being that I
was selling a top of the line, mint condition boat for a fair price.
On a scale of one to 10, the Ranger is a 9.7 without exaggeration.
When the buyer wanted to have a surveyor for the boat, I kind of
wondered why, but at the time I said sure - practice what you preach
kind of thing. It is, after all, just a fancy bass boat. Turns out
that the "surveyor" was a buddy and they were going to try and beat me
out of 3 or 4 grand on the boat. I politely refused to renegotiate
and returned the buyer's good faith check - I didn't even cash it.
They went into a huddle in the driveway, came back and said they would
honor the original offer at which point I said the price just went up
10K.
So that's a story from the sellers side.
And I don't think I want to sell the Ranger anymore anyway - I've
become very attached to it. :>)
In any case, good luck with the purchase process and enjoy it. It can
be a lot of fun and if you play your cards right, you will learn a
lot.
Live long and prosper,
Tom
Dr. Dr. & Mr Karen Grear
You are incorrect. The buyer can negotiate everything, even the brokers
commission fees. The seller is only interested in walking away with "X"
dollars. If the broker reducing his commission allows the seller to meet
his objectives and complete the sale, it is up for negotiation. The broker
may decide not to reduce his fee, but the buyer can still negotiate it.
Ever home I have purchased was the result of the broker taking 60% of his
normal commission rate. Since I was dealing directly with the listing
agent, the listing agent and broker both made more money than if they shared
the sale with another broker. When I presented my proposal, every brokers
initial response was NO. When they realized I was willing to walk away,
they were willing to reduce their commission and still come out ahead.
It was a win - win for everyone.
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111420491.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dr. Dr. & Mr Karen Grear
selling boats from a "used car or used boat salesman" prospective. If you
find a boat you like, you can use the NADA book price as your negotiating
tool. If it really is a seller's market, they may not accept it, but that
is part of negotiating.
<richa...@usa.com> wrote in message
news:1111421222.4...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Mule
I would put it on the market early in the season and just see what
happens so I gave it to a local broker. The broker (Brystar marine)
sells for whatever they can get above the sellers price. Now I just
want to get rid of the boat payment and I am not interested in making a
profit. I tell him that I only want 11,000 for the boat which is what
is still owed and I figured he would still be able to make plenty of
profit from the sell since the blue book value is around 13,000. His
greed is very remarkable though. He has the boat listed at 14,500. This
is over 30%! I didn't mind for at the time being because I didn't
think it would sell before spring anyway and I am just biding my time
until the weather improves and the market starts getting hot. I
recently asked how things are going with the sell and he had the nerve
to try to get me to lower my price! I know it's all part of the game
but the greed is just amazing. I have given him his thirty-day notice
and if he can't sell it in that period I will put it on the market
for 11,000 just in time for the weather to be beautiful.
Chris
Stanley Barthfarkle
> at $32k by ALL the different used boat price guides, including the
> Regional NADA you recommend, and you see the overwhelming majority of
Which make and model of boat have you been researching? I'm curious, and
would like to do a little fishing for one in my area to compare prices...
haven't found wildly inflated prices to be a problem here...maybe it's a
regional thing...
richa...@usa.com
like what I've been seeing! Who can say that brokers use an average of
real past prices to choose their numbers. Sounds more like they make it
up as they go along, testing the waters for whatever the market will
bear, no fools refused. <grin>
Glad that your idea of restoring an older boat passed as it didn't
stick - nothing worse than investing your time and money in the wrong
boat at a time when used boats aren't selling.
But are they selling or not? Does anyone know the numbers? Possibly
we're seeing a strange market phenomena: Fewer new boat sales than the
market demand would otherwise prompt, due to unreasonably high prices.
Maybe a new generation of Marketing MBAs getting hired by boat builders
to raise their margins and profits? This would mean that even if new
boat sales are numerous, they could have sold many more at a friendlier
prices. By raising their margins and thus financially limiting the
volume of new sales, they've created a modern monster: the new boat
buyer looking for a NEW USED BOAT.
As some such boats exist, and have always commanded a healthy premium
over the price of worn and tattered boats, they fill this gap. This
would mean that they are no longer as before compared to used boat
prices, but instead to the higher and higher new boat prices which
pretend to promote etheral intangibles such as lifestyle change and
other imaginary necessities magically bestowed upon their owners.
Newborn harbor Easter bunnies are apparently hatching from chocolate
eggs and hunting down dockside campers with plenty of glitzy plastic
and varnish. Marina cocktail lounges, see what I can do cruisers, watch
me go sportboats have apparently become a desirable addition to 2.5
kids and the mandatory SUV. Ocean loving boaters, move over, or find
yerself a beater to fix up with loads of cash and TLC.
The fresh and reasonable used boat has become a fiction from the past.
Unless you like to pay sensibly more for a used boat than you would
have paid for a new one only a few years ago. In a boat owner's forum I
am a member of, one poster was thrilled that their 10 year old diesel
engines were appraised for insurance purposes at a higher price than
when they were new, and this wasn't at replacement cost. Apparently the
Marketing MBAs have infiltrated the entire boating industry, replacing
honest and sensible pricing with reasonable margins with hit 'em with
ever higher prices, who cares about making more sales and having more
happy customers if you can claim to be making more short term profit.
<round of applause>
But Harry, as you said, prices are negotiable, and this boy is getting
ready to play some tough snooker, brokers beware. If one says he is Bob
Krause the second, I'll cut him some slack. But others out there, you
ain't seen Lowball played this hard in a long time! Those small good
faith deposit checks are going to be raining on you - and you guys are
going to have to start working to earn an honest livin'.<grin>
I will NOT pay the inflated salaries of worthless marketing vultures
and subsidize bloated advertizing budgets by buying a new boat. And I'm
certainly not about to accept the consequences on the used boat market
of their insatiable appetite for profit. If I don't find a decent used
boat - at normal banking/insurance/buyer used boat guide pricing -
there will be NO SALE. And no, Gould, I will not throw away the price
guides.
Rich
Dr. Dr. & Mr Karen Grear
"You can tell if a broker is lying if his lips are moving."
"Mule" <fre...@ugan.com> wrote in message
news:1111432380.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
richa...@usa.com
QUOTE:
"As far as sending earnest money to out of state brokers you have never
met and for boats you have never seen.......don't do it, please. See if
you can find one local broker you like and trust, even if that party
doesn't have a listing right now that matches your want list. (In most
areas of the country, 10-year-old 30-foot cruisers are likely to be
somewhat scarce at the $30,000 level). Use the local broker you like
and trust to represent your offers. If you make a deposit on an out of
state boat through your local broker your money goes into the trust
account of the local guy you like and know- not some guy 1000 miles
away
who may be doing business out of the phone booth at the back of a
waterfront bar.
Your broker will share the sales commission with the listing broker, so
it won't cost the seller any more and shoudn't cost you an extra dime."
You have just saved me money, worries, more money and maybe even gotten
me to stick with it and finally reach that lofty twilight cieling of
stars, the right boat.
Deeply grateful,
Rich
P.Fritz
"WaIIy" <eI...@ChangeThisPart.com> wrote in message
news:vvgu319vii746i544...@4ax.com...
> On 21 Mar 2005 08:38:28 -0800, richa...@usa.com wrote:
>
>>Some folks might find it of
>>great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other
>>folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their
>>initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving
>>the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the
>>real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a
>>seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon
>>costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered
>>with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional
>>attachment of either party distorting the mix.
>
He is missing one important part of the mix.....the supply and demand for
like boats....what may be a 'fair and rationale' price goes out the window
when there is a sudden influx of newer boats being dumped on the market by
laid off dot com'ers. :-)
bb
<Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There is an old saying about Brokers.
>
>"You can tell if a broker is lying if his lips are moving."
And the only difference between you and a broker is you're a pretty
good ventriloquist.
bb
goul...@aol.com
(Not to be confused with a boat dock)
The value of the NADA used boat pricing guide is clearly stated on the
cover of the book itself, in Spanish.
Negotiating with the NADA book is one thing, but in some cases the
buyers decide that there is a "secret" stash of boats out there,
somewhere, all priced at or below the NADA book. Can't blame them- who
in their right mind would pay "high book" for a car in most cases?
The mistake is to decide that the NADA book is some sort of price
gospel and to assume that all sellers offering their boats for sale at
prices above NADA are out to rape and gouge the public. The boat market
is a lot more regional than you probably realize.
Then, factor in that in some specialized boats there may only be a half
dozen boats even built and sold, new, in any particular year. It's a
certainty that not all of the ten existing 1997 33' Ho Lee Smokers will
come to market in a given year, and in some years there may be only one
or maybe even no boats of that particular vintage and model even
offered for sale. Let's say there are two- one of the boats was run up
on the rocks and sold for insurance salvage at $15,000.
The other was in bristol shape and brought $110,000....(somewhat a
decent price as a new one now brings about $200k). NADA takes both
boats and calculates an "average" price of $62,500.
Totally useless. That price is 47,500 more than the junker brought, but
$40,000 less than the nice boat sold for. Is the nice boat really only
worth $62,500 because somebody dumped a junker at a sacrifice figure?
Did the guy who bought the salvage hull at $15,000 "steal it"?
(Probably not).
Dr. Dr. Karen Grear
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111455401....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Ever buy a boat, Doc?
>
> (Not to be confused with a boat dock)
Yes, 3 of them. Boats are like any other commodity, supply and demand
dictate their sales price.
goul...@aol.com
dictate their sales price.
***************
Exactly! Supply and demand, not a book.
Dr. Dr. Karen Grear
negotiating.
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111459673.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Tuuk
you fool,, your dad pumped gas at the local marina for 30 years. Just after
he landed here from Germany on an outboard motor boat as YOU SAID YOURSELF.
He also was welcomed in N.Y. Harbor by the Fireboat spray AS YOU SAID
YOURSELF,.
Now you are saying he was a used boat salesman,,, lol,,, krause you are a
fool,, are you off your meds again???
ANd just to prove krause, I did a check through proper resources, there is
no evidence of a krause owning a boat dealership in the 40s, 50s, 60, or
70s. So krause, who do you think is buying all this crap you keep spewing???
"HarryKrause" <Harry....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a8i24F...@individual.net...
> richa...@usa.com wrote:
>> Hi Harry,
>>
>> Honored I'm sure that you grace this thread with your renouned wisdom.
>> I've enjoyed reading your postings with relish time and time again!
>>
>> I guess that I've figured that there is no "official pricing" on boats,
>> as it is a largely unregulated market, and because many folks don't buy
>> them based on rationality but after getting hooked at a Marina.
>>
>> I can well understand that used prices are not an exact rocket science.
>> Among the zillions of points of view one can envisage, I see two
>> present in this thread which tend to cancel one another out:
>>
>> A. Past prices make up the market, and thus an average of all prices
>> of boats sold is the real used boat price. The premise here is that
>> nobody in their right mind will sell you a comparable boat for
>> substantially less than another one might have sold for in the recent
>> past. This approach is however fundamentally flawed, because it fails
>> to take into account the people involved. Some folks might find it of
>> great value to unload their used boat fast at a very low price. Other
>> folks might never be able to live down the perceived loss of their
>> initial investment and prefer to wait for an imaginary buyer, leaving
>> the task of selling the boat to their heirs upon their demise. So the
>> real market price would be what two rational people, a buyer and a
>> seller, come to agree upon as a fair and "rational" price based upon
>> costs incurred by the initial owner, costs which will be transfered
>> with the purchase to the next owner, with some allowance for emotional
>> attachment of either party distorting the mix.
>>
>> B. Extrapolations of technical and financial parameters establish the
>> value of the boat. Similarly to a cost accounting process, the
>> materials used, their ageing characteristics, their condition, a survey
>> of the boat, its features and options would constitute a rational basis
>> for estimating the value and price of a used boat. This approach also
>> fails to take into account the human factor. We're dealing with
>> emotional and sometimes irrational people who invest their ego and not
>> just their money into boats. We're talking dreams, aspirations,
>> expectations, and even neuroses getting projected into a boat's
>> purchase or sale. This means that in some cases both the buyer and the
>> seller make a deal and each feels that they've been burned. It can also
>> mean, though surely less often, that each party feels that they've made
>> out like bandits with a sweet sweet deal. Selling a used car I once
>> experienced that. It had given me so much trouble I advertised it well
>> under market price. The buyer was so excited he mailed me a check
>> without even seeing the car. He was a happy sailor. I was happy too, I
>> would have paid to get rid of it!
>>
>> So please forgive me if I don't align my checkbook with actual sale
>> prices. Other people paid those prices for their own reasons which may
>> be sensibly different than mine. Prices tend to be "all over the place"
>> especially when, as you justly state, there is no organized used boat
>> market. So I'll keep my own grey cells as my best basis of pricing,
>> whether books, brokers or sellers think otherwise. I guess the real
>> market price I will end up paying (this will then become a "real" past
>> market price) is going to be what I'll be willing to pay = a lot of
>> boat for a lot of money.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rich
>>
>
>
> A couple of months ago, in the doldrums of winter, as it were, I got the
> idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of
> spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing boat.
> I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call "fair
> condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been built in,
> what, about two decades. Similarly equipped and in similar shape, the
> owners' prices varied by $40,000, and were considerably higher than any of
> the books.
>
> My dad was a boat dealer. He subscribed to one of the boat pricing books,
> and left them on the counter for his customers. When he sold a used boat,
> it was based on "Bob's Pricing." If a customer said, "Hey, Bob, that price
> is a little (or a lot) high," my dad would say, "Yeah, well, all the used
> boats that leave here come with a 30 or 60 day written warranty. I think
> this rig is worth $XX,XXX."
>
> He only offered discounts to local policemen and firemen. Worked for him
> for about 30 years in the business.
>
> Used boat prices are negotiable, unless you are buying from a
> reincarnation of my dad.
>
>
>
Dr. Dr. Karen Grear
If you reject negotiating with a prospective buyer, because you believe they
are trying to get the lowest possible price, you will never sell your boat.
"bb" <blac...@home.com> wrote in message
news:kq7041d1hj0ganhv0...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:39:29 -0500, "Dr. Dr. Karen Grear"
> <Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while
>>negotiating.
>
> Exactly. The book, NADA, is a tool for buyers to try and beat down
> the price of a boat. That's how they sell the book. If a seller is
> foolish enough to think the book is factual information, so be it.
> Best thing to do when someone starts spouting NADA prices is politely
> suggest they look elsewhere for a vessel.
>
> bb
John H
>John H wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:42:38 -0500, HKrause <Harry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>K. Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers
>>>>don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're
>>>>mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then
>>>>you deserve what you won't get.
>>>
>>>> So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a
>>>>franchised boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however
>>>>at least the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets,
>>>>stock & staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an
>>>>unregulated hangeron moron.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yet another psychotic screed from Karen Smith of Australia, the
>>>self-proclaimed "inventor" of the "Taipan line" of diesel outboards no
>>>one has heard of, and, in fact, no one in the marine industry has heard
>>>of Karen Smith, either.
>>
>>
>> But she presents a detailed knowledge of marine engines. One which some folks
>> can only snipe at with their inane comments.
>
>
>It's your opinion that she presents a "detailed knowledge." Time and
>again, her "detailed" knowledge has been shot to shreds by experts with
>actual credentials.
>
>Perhaps some people are too easy to convince when they see long, poorly
>written posts with a few buzzwords sprinkled in for effect.
When an expert responds to her posts with a different opinion, I enjoy reading
both. *You*, in my opinion, are not an expert. Therefore your snide comments
fall into the 'inane' category.
--
John H
"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."
John H
>K. Smith wrote:
>
>> Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers
>> don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're
>> mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then
>> you deserve what you won't get.
>
>> So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a
>> franchised boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however
>> at least the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets,
>> stock & staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an
>> unregulated hangeron moron.
>>
>
>
>
>Yet another psychotic screed from Karen Smith of Australia, the
>self-proclaimed "inventor" of the "Taipan line" of diesel outboards no
>one has heard of, and, in fact, no one in the marine industry has heard
>of Karen Smith, either.
But she presents a detailed knowledge of marine engines. One which some folks
can only snipe at with their inane comments.
Short Wave Sportfishing
<waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:28:18 -0500, HarryKrause
><Harry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A couple of months ago, in the doldrums of winter, as it were, I got the
>>idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of
>>spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing
>>boat. I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call
>>"fair condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been
>>built in, what, about two decades.
>
>=============================
>
>Bertram 28 by any chance? We went through the same process with
>Bertram 31s six years ago before finally settling on a Bertram 33
>(because Mrs B like it better). The range of condition and prices for
>old Bertram 31s is simply astounding. The 28 is better for cruising
>with its bigger cabin space but the 31 is faster and has a larger
>cockpit for fishing.
I looked at a couple of Bertram 31s last summer - I like them a lot.
Later,
Tom
Wayne.B
wrote:
>Yeah, as I said, 31s and of course the 33s were larger than what I had
>in mind, when I had this refurb idea in mind. A couple of four cylinder
>diesels would do nicely in the 28.
>
>I've got a nibble, maybe, on my Parker. If the guy's really interested,
>I'll have the winter plastic removed. I don't usually call for that
>until the beginning of April, just before the last snowstorm here.
===============================================
Normal power on most of the 28s that we saw was a pair of 350cid
Chevys rated at 260 hp, cruising at about 130 hp each. I would want
diesel power of at least 180 to 200 hp for comparable performance. My
recollection is that the 28s actually weigh more than the 31s but the
31s are almost always found with a pair of 454s unless they've been
converted.
Wayne.B
wrote:
>There was a sweet 33 with gas engines across from the West Marine store
>in Deale...under $90,000, and a really solid hull with no blems.
===================================
They are great boats but really need a pair of diesels to get them
going the way you'd like. Weight is over 20,000 lbs compared to about
10,000 for a 31.
bb
<Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>bb,
>If you reject negotiating with a prospective buyer, because you believe they
>are trying to get the lowest possible price, you will never sell your boat.
Ok, but what does the above statement have to do with anything?
I, as a seller, don't have to take a number printed in a book as fact.
I'm well aware of how to negotiate the price of a vessel. Anybody can
give a boat away.
bb
John H
>
>"John H" <notava...@here.com> wrote in message
>news:fvq0419599om64grj...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:18:13 -0500, HKrause <Harry....@gmail.com>
>>>Double yawn.
>>
>> Double 'exactly'.
>> --
>> John H
>>
>> "All decisions are the result of binary thinking."
>
>John, as Wally previously suggested, just killfile the guy. He is rude,
>angry and has nothing worthwhile to offer this group.
>
>
>
Done!
bb
wrote:
>Would you mind emailing me your email address, bb?
>
>Thanks
No problem. I sent it to your gmail account. If that's not the one
to use, let me know.
bb
bb
<Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The book does not dictate a price, but it can be an effective tool while
>negotiating.
Exactly. The book, NADA, is a tool for buyers to try and beat down
bb
<Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If you are aware of how to negotiate, why would you stop negotiations, just
>because someone was using NADA prices as part of his negotiations.
Grasshopper, I never said stop negotiations. Stop looking at the
trees and notice the beautiful forrest.
> If you
>were a good negotiator, you would immediately show the selling price of
>similar boats in your area as your tool to discredit the NADA prices.
In my experience, people who bring up NADA pricing are usually not
intertested in hearing about other, more realistic sources for boat
pricing. You can bring up actual comparable sales all day long and
the NADA folks will go right back to "yeah, but NADA.........."
>A good negotiator would not give anything away, nor would he allow an offer
>that he considered unreasonable to stop his negotiations.
Who said anything about giving something away, or stoping
negotiations?
bb
K. Smith
> idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of
> spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing
> boat. I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call
> "fair condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been
> shape, the owners' prices varied by $40,000, and were considerably
> higher than any of the books.
>
> My dad was a boat dealer. He subscribed to one of the boat pricing
> books, and left them on the counter for his customers. When he sold a
> used boat, it was based on "Bob's Pricing." If a customer said, "Hey,
> Bob, that price is a little (or a lot) high," my dad would say, "Yeah,
> well, all the used boats that leave here come with a 30 or 60 day
> written warranty. I think this rig is worth $XX,XXX."
>
> He only offered discounts to local policemen and firemen. Worked for him
> for about 30 years in the business.
>
> Used boat prices are negotiable, unless you are buying from a
> reincarnation of my dad.
>
>
>
& the liar just can't help but lie:-)
Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers
don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're
mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then
you deserve what you won't get.
As you said take the rego number go do a search of the title at say
your DMV or similar, then contact the real seller. You will find that
because the brokers are liars who will say anything to get a signed
listing the seller will be tied up for ages & the broker will be getting
his unearned commission regardless, so make sure "you" are not
introduced to the boat by the broker.
The broker doesn't care what price the seller gets really because the
commission is the commission & once they get the owner to spend money on
the boat on the false pretext of "helping get a better price" also the
broker gets it put in a "good selling marina" (all work, marina fees &
even surveys the broker is collecting their secret commissions on of
course:-)) they spend their lives grafting whatever kickback they can
get from anything or spruiking deceptive BS.
So essentially brokers are one of the few life forms below a franchised
boat dealer & that's almost life on Mars type stuff, however at least
the dealers have a real business, with real overheads, assets, stock &
staff etc, whereas the average slimey broker is just an unregulated
hangeron moron.
You've now been warned about both Krause the liar & the brokers, but
hey thanks for letting me file yet another of his lies:-) imagine if
that lying simpleton was "really" looking to buy a boat this winter???
what to go with all the rest of his imaginary boats??:-) & given his
entire life is lived as a union thug or through the NG he didn't make a
huge noise about it?? na this is just another of his lies, he's a
pathological BS'ter.
K
So the Krause lie of the day??? Here ya go:-)
So just getting back to the Hatt 43 lie:-) What happened was at
least 2 of the NG people lived near where he "claimed" he did & said
they'd settle if he owned a Hatt 43 or not by simply calling around &
taking a look:-) After all his usual abuse & fained "privacy" concerns
it was starting to look like his lying hide was about to be hung out to
dry:-)
This would be more than his ego could even contemplate, so in his
desperation not to be caught red handed (again:-)) he then lied again;
which despite it being totally unbelievable it allowed his damaged mind
to think he was still the big man his lies had created:-)
Doubt save to organise employment wrecking union strokes, he's
never even been to Florida but he desperately needed to get away from
the lie mansion & the lie Hatt 43:-)
>
>> >>>>>
>
> We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold clear,
a broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
> lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
> hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments
> they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
> romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any, either.
> The proceeds were prudently invested.
>
>>
Wayne.B
> Anybody can
>give a boat away.
==========================
Reminds me of an old quote about the banking business:
"Any fool can lend out money, the trick is to get it back with
interest."
JimH
>
> Double 'exactly'.
> John H
>
> "All decisions are the result of binary thinking."
John, as Wally previously suggested, just killfile the guy. He is rude,
Dr. Dr. Karen Grear
I can see why you have trouble negotiating.
"bb" <blac...@work.com> wrote in message
news:tb414192fps75t74a...@4ax.com...
Dr. Dr. Karen Grear
If you are aware of how to negotiate, why would you stop negotiations, just
because someone was using NADA prices as part of his negotiations. If you
were a good negotiator, you would immediately show the selling price of
similar boats in your area as your tool to discredit the NADA prices.
A good negotiator would not give anything away, nor would he allow an offer
that he considered unreasonable to stop his negotiations.
"bb" <blac...@home.com> wrote in message
news:jl9041l92ut4sfsi9...@4ax.com...
Wayne.B
<Harry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>A couple of months ago, in the doldrums of winter, as it were, I got the
>idea (which thankfully has passed) that I would like to devote a lot of
>spare time to refinishing/rebuilding a classic 28' deep vee fishing
>boat. I found five boats that met my specs, all in what I would call
>"fair condition. The model is somewhat in demand, but it hasn't been
>built in, what, about two decades.
=============================
John H
>Double yawn.
Double 'exactly'.
Tuuk
Now that is funny,,
krause gets caught in a double lie,, then he casually brushes it off as if
it is just another day,,, lol,,, seems these lying days are bleeding
together and krause is just embarrassed and cannot keep up. lol,,
Then krause claims all this knowledge of boats, boat industry, ownership of
boats and a boat business. Then someone with obvious light years knowledge
about what krause claims to have lets it show,,, krause cannot stand it. I
can just see krause now,, with his head under the table there shaking,
sweating, shivering, "oo little darling,,, bring on the meds,,,and a diaper
change also,, it happened again"""
"HKrause" <Harry....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ab5r6F...@individual.net...
> John H wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:57:56 -0500, HKrause <Harry....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John H wrote:
>>>
Tuuk
what happened??? did you find another puppet???
You going to destroy this guy's reputation now by showing association???
How can this guy soar like an eagle when he will be flying with ducks,,, my
advice is to stay away from krause and his string of puppets before you
become one. But it is not difficult to break yourself free,,, just ask his 3
children who left krause promising never to associate again JUST AS HE
HIMSELF SAID and his first 2 wives slapped him with divorce papers but
krause being aware of the family law he had all kinds of prenupts, even with
his kids. And he legally stuffed mom into the home on the west coast, just
far enough away to discourage visits. Real fine specimen krause is,, lol,,,
he didn't even make dear old mama proud of him. Papa was disappointed as
well as mama krause.
"HKrause" <Harry....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3abm57F...@individual.net...
bb
<Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>bb,
>I can see why you have trouble negotiating.
heh
bb
goul...@aol.com
while
negotiating.
**********
Nonsense. You might as well rely on saying "My brother-in-law says
your boat is only worth XXXX.
Put yourself in the seller's shoes. When the seller listed the boat, it
is very probable that he did some research on the local market that
included sales trends and selling prices for boats similar to the one
he is selling. To put yourself in the seller's shoes, imagine you put
your house up for sale and, rather than throwing a dart at sheet of
numbers on the wall, you priced the boat at or just slightly above the
prevailing price trend in your area.
Let's say that after you had your house listed for a week, an offer for
half price is presented by the broker. When you say, "That's almost an
insult! What makes this guy think he can buy
my house for so much less than my neighbors are selling their houses
for?"....how quickly would you cave in when the broker replied, "The
buyer went on the internet, found some site
where a group of Automobile Dealers has expressed an opinion about the
value of your boat, and as far as he's concerned that's all its worth"?
We actually *do* agree on one thing. Knowing the actual, recent, local
price tendencies for a boat can be an effective negotiating tactic.
This information is available, (I described how to obtain it earlier in
the thread), and useful. Using some fairy tale number from a
discredited source won't cause an informed seller to give his boat away
at half price. Ain't gonna happen.
Now of course if it were a political debate instead of a boating
transaction, the guy with the phony numbers would just keep repeating
them over, and over, and over again until everybody else began
believing they might be true. :-)
JimH
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111593553.6...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Chuck, what is your opinion of the BUC personalized evaluation/pricing
service?
http://www.buc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pes
We used it when we sold our boat and found it to be a good tool.
goul...@aol.com
just
because someone was using NADA prices as part of his negotiations.
**************
If the gap is hopeless, refusing to "counter" can be an effective
tactic. (If the gap is hopeless)
It has everything to do with carving out the game rules.
Is the question going to be, "How much more than half price will you be
able to eventually grind out of me as a buyer/" or "How much less than
my asking price are you going to convince me, as a seller, to accept?"
The answer is seldom "double", or "half".
A fair price is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. Anybody
will be willing to buy at half price, but few willing sellers, (not
acting under duress) will accept that.
Those who need to buy on the triple cheap should maybe keep an eye on
the obits. Next time a boater dies, maybe his grieving widow can be
deceived into dumping his boat for a lot less than it's really worth.
Once in a while you meet a guy who bought a boat, a car, or something
else on the super-cheap in such circumstances.......don't know about
you, but I have to resist the urge to vomit when they start bragging
about how they suckered the old lady in her hour of distress.
goul...@aol.com
reading
both. *You*, in my opinion, are not an expert. Therefore your snide
comments
fall into the 'inane' category.
John H
************
When an "expert" repsonds to a post about a technical matter, he or she
will be able to do so without making personal attacks and insults the
basis of his or her remarks.
What would you think if you hired a surveyor, and he showed up and
began the process with, "This boat has to be a piece of crap. I can
tell without looking at it. The reason I am so sure is that I know the
present owner, and he is the lowest form of life on the
planet............."?
An expert should be able to render an opinion in an adult and objective
manner.
Of course, if the only field in which one is really an expert is the
depth of their own disgust for other people then opinions expressed in
*that* field of expertise will indeed, read like a non-stop personal
attack.
Dr. Dr. Karen Grear
When I have looked used NADA prices and compared them to the listed price in
boattraders.com, I found them within the 10%-20% range of the prices listed.
Since I was always looking at smaller boats, I just checked on a 1972 GB 50
Trawler and found it was 50% of the listed price in boattrader.com.
I agree, when you have such a wide range, it does not have much value.
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111593553.6...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
John H
In the instance of my comment, I believe Karen was responding to a post without
a verbal attack on anyone.
goul...@aol.com
BUC pricing was typically on the high side if one began using the
factors for "better than average" or "bristol" condition. What seller
doesn't believe that his boat is better than average, maybe even
bristol? Without using the multipliers, the pricing seemed fairly
realistic.
BUC makes an effort to identify obvious regional price trends, and
trends pertaining to specific types of boats. That's a good thing.
IMO, BUC is more often the "seller's book". (Surveyors typically used
BUC book valuations when appraising boats for charitable donation, as
the final number "adjusted for condition" was usually somewhat above
market).
BUC at one time was the defacto price and multi-listing program from
brokerages. They finally got their pricing up to some ridiculous
per-minute charge for being on line and Yachtworld has effectively
assumed the position. (Only a few years ago, Yachtworld was still under
$200 per month for a broker's subscription). However, now that
Yachtworld is charging almost $500 a month for brokers who use the full
extent of the service there is a lot of room for somebody to come in
and do a better job cheaper.
I still believe the best source of current regional sales information
is the sold boat database available to brokers on Yachtworld. You have
to look at the numbers carefully----- some brokers just routinely
report that every boat they sold was at full asking price........yeah,
right. Need some oceanfront property in Oklahoma? :-) {The majority
of brokers do report accurate selling prices}
bb
wrote:
> Just like the brokers!!! so don't go near any of them. The brokers
>don't even have a business, no investment, no capitol, nothing, they're
>mostly failed used car salesmen & if you don't know what that means then
>you deserve what you won't get.
>
> As you said take the rego number go do a search of the title at say
>your DMV or similar, then contact the real seller. You will find that
>because the brokers are liars who will say anything to get a signed
>listing the seller will be tied up for ages & the broker will be getting
>his unearned commission regardless, so make sure "you" are not
>introduced to the boat by the broker.
Help me out a little here K. Smith.
I understand from your post that it's not ok for brokers or sales
people to lie or cheat. That I agree with.
I also undersand from your post that it's ok if buyers and sellers
lie, cheat and deceive brokers and dealers. I may not agree, but you
are entitled to your opinion.
What you left out is very important. Is it ok for buyers to lie to
sellers? Is it ok for sellers to lie and cheat buyers? You seem to
be stating that it's ok for some people to lie and cheat some people
in some instances, but it's not ok for other people to lie and cheat
in other instances, so a little more clarification of when it's ok for
who to lie and cheat who, would be helpful to those of us who assumed
it wasn't ok for anyone to lie and cheat anyone at any time.
Thank you for clarifying the above.
bb
bb
wrote:
>In the instance of my comment, I believe Karen was responding to a post without
>a verbal attack on anyone.
Well then, you must know have read K. Smith's post. I can't say as I
blame you.
K. Smith's post stared out with an attack on Harry and anyone who is
any way associated with the marine industry.
"Without a verbal attack on anyone", please.
bb
John H
I could be wrong. If so, then I'm wrong. I'm not energetic enough to look up the
exact post. I *think* this was one of her rare posts without a personal attack
of Krause.
Dave Hall
So is it your opinion that guides such as NADA serve no real purpose?
Dave
bb
wrote:
>I could be wrong. If so, then I'm wrong. I'm not energetic enough to look up the
>exact post.
Well John, here's what she had to reply to Harry:
& the liar just can't help but lie:-)
Calling someone a liar in my book is a personal attack.
> I *think* this was one of her rare posts without a personal attack
>of Krause.
I see you come to the defense of K Smith the same as you do the
president, with no bases in fact. At least you're consistant.
bb
John H
I stand corrected. Karen would do better to segregate her 'Harry is a liar'
posts from her on-topic posts.
As Harry's comment was 'inane', I have nothing to apologize for. However, I do
admit my error. (You can pass that on to Chuck also!)
Tuuk
It isn't a shame to admit someone is far more intelligent than you krause,
even a woman. I know this crushes you krause, seriously, I am sure you have
had to increase the meds because of it. Every time this very knowledgeable
boater points out your lies or helps someone with a boating problem they
have, you simply cringe. I mean if you didn't make the lie in the first
place why are you bothered by her helping other boaters with their issues?
She is obviously adding value. I mean you claimed to have owned all these
marinas and boat shops, yet you help no one. krause you fool, the only
person making things up around here is you.
"HKrause" <Harry....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3admduF...@individual.net...
> It wouldn't be a Karen Smith post without the inclusion of one of her
> psychotic screeds about me.
Don White
" Tuuk" <bangkok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eIx0e.11815$RM2....@read1.cgocable.net...
> krause you fool
>
> It isn't a shame to admit someone is far more intelligent than you krause,
> even a woman.
That sounds like a sexist remark. Why couldn't a woman be as intelligent,
or more so, than any man here?
If you're referring to Karen...we're not even sure if she/he/it is of the
female persuasion.
K. Smith
& I apologise to you also John, I can assure you when I post I do
always give a Krause lie.
I know as we all do that you know Krause is a liar I'm not sure even
you nor any of us know the full extent of his lies, but hey he is a liar.
A failed used car salesman who then graduated to being a failed boat
broker presumes to give me stick????:-) I don't think so.
All I need do is review to simply correct his spam pieces & it's clear
to all what the other one is "on" a stick.
Anyway thanks for the defense & sorry if I've let you down ......
again, as I will below:-)
Best Regards,
Oops that reminds me speaking of turds on sticks ...........
K
Sorry to bear bad news on easter Friday because I know,
particularly you poor Ficht owners:-), finding out just how these lying
dealers have ripped you off over the years is depressing & I agree but
hey; we did tell you at the time yet you chose to believe them??? Anyway
now for something to cheer you up, it's your Krause lie of the day:-)
This lying simpleton, after it became clear he was losing a thread
where he was displaying his usual lack of patriotism much less gratitude
for the brave men & women out there risking their everything, to keep
the likes of him safe, he just reverts to type.
But seriously can you imagine this uneducated union thug now claims
he is reviewing universities!!! & wait for it he poo poos the
engineering course!!! this from a lying uneducated union thug who
couldn't use a toaster without a union authorised electrician in attendance.
I've included just one of the followup responses but it was such a
bald faced lie it even embarrassed the rejoinders:-)
>
> I have visited West Point, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy and
> the sub training facility at Groton. Some years ago, I actually did look
> over descriptions of some of the course material at Annapolis and the
> c.v.'s of some of the faculty. I'm sure the engineering course material
> is fairly rigorous, though it is more "trade-oriented" and did not look
> up to MIT or CalTech standards. I mean, if your goal is to be an
> aeronautical engineer, you're going to get better training at MIT or
> CalTech or at any of a large number of other engineering schools. I
> thought the faculty academic credentials no better than what is found at
> a typical smaller four year public university. The military academies
> turn out military officers with an education, not highly educated
> military officers. But that is their purpose, eh?
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
> Holy molly, grandma, put on your high boots.
>
>>>>>
> Harry Krause, admitted graduate in the humanities with a degree in
English
> is hereby qualified to critique the engineering curriculum of not
only West
> Point, but also that of the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy and
> compare it to that of MIT and CalTech.
>
>>>>>
> The above paragraph is a classic.
>
>>>>>
> You missed your calling Harry.
>
>>>>
Wayne.B
<Karen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just checked on a 1972 GB 50
>Trawler and found it was 50% of the listed price in boattrader.com.
==================================
Prices on older boats vary widely based on condition. You really have
to know a great deal about the specific deal in question since it's
not uncommon for an older boat in that size range to need $100,000 or
more in maintenance and upgrades.
Tuuk
white, you have told me,, or at least announced to your puppet master and
fellow puppets that you have put Tuuk on bozo bin. You announced this in
response to the times your lying puppet master made his announcements. So
you followed him. And like the blind leading the blind,, both you lying
fools post evidence that you are a liar,,, lol,, you fools certainly aint
the brightest kids in the class are ya,,, lol,,,, oooo my,,,,,
Come on white,,, are you still treating dear old mom inadequately as you
claimed?? Come on white,,,, just because your puppet master brags how he
treated his mother, you have to follow. Must be shameful to treat Mom like
that. ,, kinda funny really because the days you criticized how the Asians
care for their parents, you insulted the Asian people because of their love
and eternal care for their parents and relatives, then a week later you post
how you abuse your own mother,,, lol,,, when she needs you the most,,, ,,,
now if you aint the sickest puppet around,,,, ooooo my,,,,
Well,, at least you are allowing an outside private firm to enter your home
to bath her once per month. That is kind of you. I mean you could have
sunken as low as krause did and ship her away to a home just far enough away
to discourage visiting,, on the west coast of Florida...
"Don White" <wh...@nsknospm.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:45A0e.4284$Ln.1...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
richa...@usa.com
Thanks again to those on topic. Others here, this thread which of
course I do not own, I started to discuss an important issue to all
boaters, buyers, sellers and owners: Prices of Used Boats.
Clearly there is no (or little) monitoring of these discussions, as
the topic now looks like "Who is the biggest A$$Hole and why". Please
start a separate thread to trash one another. Some of us are not
trying to measure our egos against typed text on the internet. These
groups are a very useful tool to raise issues and find solutions to
what looks like complex problems.
Possibly none of the folks disrupting this thread are actual people,
acting as individuals, but interest groups trying to kill any useful
source of boat pricing information? Lord knows there is now more
"pollution" in this thread than content. Had it been their intention,
they couldn't have done a better job of sabotage!
Others here beware. Likely the only ones with vested interest in our
not sharing information regarding boat pricing are people in the
industry who may wish to protect milk-cow profits. Be they from
overpriced manufacturers, price gouging dealers, corrupt brokers or
even industry hirelings, the idea is "keep 'em stupid and disinformed
- then grab all you can".
So the rule for these newsgroups goes:
- Buyer Beware
- Seller Beware
Somebody is out to get you - and your hard earned cash - in every
which way they can. Keeping us dumbed down is one technique among
others. It is apparently being used right here in this thread, with
trashing and flaming coming seemingly out of nowhere, possibly even
from non existing fictional characters. Otherwise, why spend their
time and energy belching fire here?
All my best wishes to all well-intended buyers, sellers and boaters
alike. Looks like there's a bunch of nasties trying to cut in on our
fun, and make us regret launching out to sea.
Cheers,
Rich
goul...@aol.com
broker presumes to give me stick????:-) I don't think so.
All I need do is review to simply correct his spam pieces &
it's clear
to all what the other one is "on" a stick.
**************
Gee, K, it's hard to know just exactly who you'd be referring to with
those acid comments, but I can make an educated guess. If it's the
party I'm thinking of, you would be astonished if you knew the details
of his annual income and net worth. The party I'm thinking of was in a
position to retire in his late 40's, but enjoys work more than he would
a full-time hobby. If it's the party I'm thinking of, many people would
disagree with your definition of "failure". Next time you launch one of
your acid bombs, perhaps you will elaborate upon your definition.
And if it's the party I'm thinking of, your "corrections" are most
frequently the presentation of alternate opinions. There are pro's and
con's to most subjects. People who know something about a subject are
not afraid to discuss alternate opinions rationally. People who know
little or nothing about a subject go to a thermodynamcs textbook, chat
with some bloke in the shop, or
misunderstand something overheard at the waterfront bar and speed to
the keyboard with the new idea. They cling like kitchen wrap to the one
little nugget they think they've got nailed, and snarl at the first
sign of challenge as they are unable to expand upon, validate, or
substantiate thier statements. A common tactic employed by people who
know little or nothing but hope to appear as an expert is to post
something totally wrong, (like "Nobody builds a boat with a cored hull
anymore") and then begin a nonstop tirade of insults, accusations, wild
assertions, etc. People who know little or nothing about a subject view
those with alternate opinions as "enemies" who might expose the
obnoxious would-be potentate for marching naked in the parade.
Almost everybody else participating in the NG can disagree on issues,
even technical issues, without defining the people on the other side of
the issue as "liars, spammers, failures, and turds." Those themes seem
to dominate all of your posts. Could it be that you are so immersed in
a reality dominated by lying, failing, spamming, and turds that you
interpret the rest of the world only through that filthy little filter?
If so, that's really pretty sad.
Dr. T. Sheit
<goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111767654....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Netsock
"Dr. T. Sheit" <tsh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:T9ednXXEs73...@comcast.com...
> Who was she talking about?
Our Klass Klown Krause.
> <Our Village Idiot with yet another identity> wrote in message
> news:1111767654....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Gee, K, it's hard to know just exactly who you'd be referring to with
> > those acid comments, but I can make an educated guess.
Wow, that would make you a genius.
> >If it's the
> > party I'm thinking of, you would be astonished if you knew the details
> > of his annual income and net worth.
Im already astonished. I cant believe he can even afford a computer on his
anual income and net worth.
> > The party I'm thinking of was in a
> > position to retire in his late 40's,
Yup. I believe I heard he started at Wal-Mart when he was 18, and retired 30
years later at 48. I've heard they still let him come back on the weekends
to help gather carts from the lot.
Nice try Krause, but I kill filed this identity of yours a long long time
ago.
I must admit, I do enjoy seeing these ridiculous posts every once in a
while...they make me smile. :)
Hey, what ever happened to Skipper? [huuuuuge grin]
--
-Netsock
"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/