Prop line cutters
John F. Hughes
these things that you put on your prop/shaft that makes them into a very
powerful scissors (in addition to the ordinary function of propelling the
boat, of course). The idea is that if you get a line tangled around your prop,
this device will cut it, saving you the trouble of going over the side to
untangle or cut it yourself.
What do folks think of these things? The Practical Sailor reviewed them
recently, taking the attitude that most of the lines caught in your prop are
your own, so cutting them is no great sin. My own experience has been quite
different: I tend to keep my own lines aboard, and the only ones I've gotten
caught in the prop are lobsterpot lines at night. Fortunately, the prop has not
been turning, and they've worked themselves free, so the whole point is moot in
my case. But in general I think that the attitude that "I motored over your
line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I screw up I
do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being inconsiderate
is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely incompetent.
-John
Greg Bullough
>caught in the prop are lobsterpot lines at night. Fortunately, the prop has not
>been turning, and they've worked themselves free, so the whole point is moot in
>my case. But in general I think that the attitude that "I motored over your
>line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I screw up I
>do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being inconsiderate
>is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely incompetent.
Well, if you putt over a line with the prop turning, it's not going to
do the line much good anyway, so you might as well save your prop and
cutlass bearing with a line cutter.
I think that the types of lines these things are for are fishing lines
and other small snaggy stuff anyway. I know that I really wish I had
had one when that b****** who was illicitly fishing from his Tollycraft
stinkpot in Pier 39 marina cast his line in front of me when I had no
room to maneuver. That cost me a cutlass bearing, and a *lot* of labor
to get the shaft out to get to it.
Greg
John F. Hughes
>In article <1992Jun22....@cs.brown.edu> j...@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes) writes:
>>my case. But in general I think that the attitude that "I motored over your
>>line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I screw up I
>>do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being inconsiderate
>>is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely incompetent.
>Well, if you putt over a line with the prop turning, it's not going to
>do the line much good anyway, so you might as well save your prop and
>cutlass bearing with a line cutter.
I'm not certain I agree. The next step from "I'm protected from my own
mistakes" might be "It's OK for me to make mistakes...", and you figure
you don't *have* to look out for lines anymore...
And if I motored over a pot line and got it stuck in the prop, I'd probably do
my best to cut out the midsection (the stuff around the prop) and attach the
buoy to the remaining warp, so that at least the pot (which is not cheap) would
not be lost. The same goes for people's moorings.
>I think that the types of lines these things are for are fishing lines
>and other small snaggy stuff anyway.
You may be right. The ads I've seen have shown them with something that looked
a lot like 3-strand pot warp (i.e. 3/8 inch line), and when I looked at one in
the local chandlery, it was pretty fierce looking. I figured it could cut 1/2"
nylon with no trouble.
There *is* an alternative, of course: the lobstermen in Maine all have them:
it's a kind of basket that surrounds the prop, like the cage around your fan at
home. Seems to work just fine. Of course, it means a little more drag while
you're sailing, and perhaps people prefer to cut lines rather than lose a
quarter knot.
-John
Joel Clark
>these things that you put on your prop/shaft that makes them into a very
>this device will cut it, saving you the trouble of going over the side to
>untangle or cut it yourself.
>
>What do folks think of these things? The Practical Sailor reviewed them
>recently, taking the attitude that most of the lines caught in your prop are
>your own, so cutting them is no great sin. My own experience has been quite
>different: I tend to keep my own lines aboard, and the only ones I've gotten
>caught in the prop are lobsterpot lines at night.
>line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I screw up I
>do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being inconsiderate
>is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely incompetent.
>
>-John
May I offer a different perspective? I don't own any of these "cutters".
But I have sailed 30-45 footers in the San Jaun Islands in Wash. State USA
for about 10 years. In that time I have snagged my dingy line about 10 times.
I have mostly resolved this by using yellow nylon "floaty" rope. I will
admit to my incompetence. But I still can`t get out of my mind the day
I picked such an easy task for my novice crewman "Watch the dingy line while
I back up and make sure it doesn`t get in the prop." A minute later he
turns to me and says "Why is the dingy trying to go under the boat?".
At the time I was about 25' feet from some very nasty rocks in a tight
harbor with no wind.
We don't have lobster pots in this area. We do have crab pots, but I have
never snagged one. I never get close enough to do so. Even at night I
have never been close enough to a someone else's crab pot to snag one.
(There was the time another novice crew decided to leave a crab pot over
the rail all night. About 3:00 am he goes out to check it and manages to
get the crab pot itself wrapped around the prop. Prefering to have the
prop available at any time in case something comes up I went over the side
at 3:00 to untangle it).
Then there was the first time I took my new boat out over night (a Catalina 42)
The boat had been delivered about two weeks before and this was my first
real sailing experience in it. I was sailing in about 2-3' seas with 20
knot winds when I heard about 5 seconds of a terrible rattling sound and
then silence. I check all around the boat and saw nothing amiss so I
kept sailing for another 2 hours. When I took down the sails and turned
on the motor, there was a brief whine and then a jerk like I had hit a
wall. Turned out the anchor had bounced out of the roller mount (no retainer
installed) and gone over board. I heard the 60' of 3/8 chain but not the
300' of 5/8 nylon. This wrapped around the prop when I started the motor.
The jerk was the rode being pulled tight and broken as the prop wrapped it up.
Being as how the 5/8 nylon has 10,000lb breaking strength it bent the
prop shaft and strut and cracked the motor mount to hull joints. Repairs
were about $5500.00. Isn't sailing fun?!
My boat is also chartered all summer, (no way I could afford a 42' without
charter) Customers tend to be even more incompentent than myself
(an understatement). They go through 2-3 dingy ropes a summer. A rope around
the prop shaft plays havoc with the cutlass bearing too.
So while I have never heard of or seen anyone snagging someone else's line
Snagging my own lines does happen. How the heck to you manage to snag a
lobster pot at night anyway? Do the lobsters drag the pots over to your
prop? :-)
joel clark
jo...@ssd.intel.com
Ian Preece
In article <1992Jun22....@SSD.intel.com>, jo...@ssd.intel.com
(Joel Clark) writes:
>>In article <1992Jun22....@cs.brown.edu> j...@cs.brown.edu (John
>F. Hughes) writes:
>>I've been seeing, for the last year or so, advertisements for
>>these things that you put on your prop/shaft that makes them into a
>very
>>powerful scissors The idea is that if you get a line tangled around
>your prop,
>>this device will cut it, saving you the trouble of going over the side
>to
>>untangle or cut it yourself.
>>
>>What do folks think of these things?
.etc...
>>In general I think that the attitude that "I motored over your
>>line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I
>screw up I
>>do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being
>inconsiderate
>>is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely
>incompetent.
Over here (South Coast of England, sailing in the English Channel), line
fouling is a regular occurrence. The usual problem is that you sail through
an area previously visited by fishermen (line, pot or net) in the dark, and
pick up a length of unmarked, floating plastic line, invisible even close up,
which either winds itself around your prop and lies in wait until you start up,
or jams you up right away. Usually, pots or nets are arranged in long strings,
with only the "ends" marked. Since these may be some hundreds of yards apart,
and "marked" with an old detergent bottle, they're hard enough to spot at high
noon, let alone night-time!
To my mind, it's not a matter of being inconsiderate, unless you care to
take that view of people who leave such hazards floating around.
Running over somebody's mooring line, for example, in a congested harbour,
may occasionally be a genuine error, and needs to be viewed in a different
light. On the whole, if you foul up, and it's your fault, you need to
go and make your peace with the owner. Where somebody's left an unattended
marine "trip-wire" lying about the ocean, though, I fail to see why that should
entitle him to any consideration at all.....
>>>So while I have never heard of or seen anyone snagging someone else's line
>>>Snagging my own lines does happen. How the heck to you manage to snag a
>>>lobster pot at night anyway? Do the lobsters drag the pots over to your
>>>prop? :-)
See above....
Ian
(p.s. The English Channel's *cold* at night, when you have to go
groping about with a knife....;-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ObDisclaimer:
"I wouldn't *work* for a company that held opinions like mine."
Ian Preece, Digital Equipment, UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gerard Bras
>I've been seeing, for the last year or so, advertisements for
>these things that you put on your prop/shaft that makes them into a very
>powerful scissors (in addition to the ordinary function of propelling the
>boat, of course). The idea is that if you get a line tangled around your prop,
>this device will cut it, saving you the trouble of going over the side to
>untangle or cut it yourself.
I've heard they are not 100% reliable. Close, though.
>What do folks think of these things? The Practical Sailor reviewed them
>recently, taking the attitude that most of the lines caught in your prop are
>your own, so cutting them is no great sin.
Gee, that depends. If it's an anchor line with a $300 anchor and a $100 chain
it may cause regret. Especially later when you really wish you had that anchor.
>My own experience has been quite
>different: I tend to keep my own lines aboard, and the only ones I've gotten
>caught in the prop are lobsterpot lines at night. Fortunately, the prop has not
>been turning, and they've worked themselves free, so the whole point is moot in
>my case. But in general I think that the attitude that "I motored over your
>line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I screw up I
>do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being inconsiderate
>is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely incompetent.
Speaking as someone who doesn't use spurs, I more or less agree with you. It
is pretty (extremely) rude to go chopping someone elses line because you drove
over it. That said, it also irks me to see lobster pots and fish traps
in narrow, marked channels. There are places (Cape Porpoise leaps to mind) where
the pot density makes the harbor pretty much impassible at night. I suppose the
fishermen take the position that it's their harbor and they have no obligation
to make things easy for tourists. What we end up with is two wrongs.
On a more cheerful note, I have an old fashioned boat with the rudder hung on the
keel and the prop in an aperture. I've never had anything foul on the wheel.
cheers,
gerard
Gerard Bras
Tales of midnight bedlam deleted...
>So while I have never heard of or seen anyone snagging someone else's line
>Snagging my own lines does happen. How the heck to you manage to snag a
>lobster pot at night anyway? Do the lobsters drag the pots over to your
>prop? :-)
Well, it's like this. It is common practice 'round here for a lobster trap to
have two floats about 10'-15' apart at the the surface. This causees a section of
the warp to be held within a foot or two of the suface making pot hauling
much more efficient. It also exposes the pot to any props which happen to
cut between the toggle and the float. The only way to be safe is to maintain
a careful watch when near shore.
cheers,
gerard
Roy Smith
> Of course, it means a little more drag while you're sailing, and perhaps
> people prefer to cut lines rather than lose a quarter knot.
Spoken like a cruiser :-)
A quarter knot! I'd *kill* for a quarter of a knot!
--
r...@wombat.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith)
Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016, USA
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Roy Smith
> I have snagged my dingy line about 10 times. I have mostly resolved
> this by using yellow nylon "floaty" rope.
I suspect the line you're talking about is polypropylene, not
nylon. Nylon line is a sort of brownish-off-white and does not float.
Polypropylene is that horrible stiff, abrasive, slippery, UV-sensitive,
yellow stuff that floats. To the best of my knowledge, its only redeeming
quality is that it does float, making it useful for dingy painters and
other lines that you want to keep out of spinning propellers.
> How the heck to you manage to snag a lobster pot at night anyway? Do the
> lobsters drag the pots over to your prop? :-)
Lobster pots (at least the Long Island Sound variety) consist of
some sort of trap that sits on the bottom, with a line running up to the
surface, ending in a float. Often, strings of them will be connected
together. The floats are generally about the size of a football.
Sometimes they are painted some sort of easy-to-see color like bright
yellow or orange, sometimes they are just dirty white. Regardless of their
color, they are just plain invisible at night, especially if the water is
rough. Day or night, they constitute a hazard to navigation and are a
royal pain in the butt (spoken as somebody who does not make their living
catching lobsters; I'm sure commercial lobstermen think pleasure boaters
are a royal pain in the butt).
If you wanted to invent a tool to retrieve lobster pot lines, you
probably couldn't do much better than a J/24's rudder.
Greg Bullough
>
>But I have sailed 30-45 footers in the San Jaun Islands in Wash. State USA
>for about 10 years. In that time I have snagged my dingy line about 10 times.
>I have mostly resolved this by using yellow nylon "floaty" rope. I will
>admit to my incompetence.
snug when motoring, and keeping its line out of the water?
> But I still can`t get out of my mind the day
>I picked such an easy task for my novice crewman "Watch the dingy line while
>I back up and make sure it doesn`t get in the prop." A minute later he
>turns to me and says "Why is the dingy trying to go under the boat?".
>At the time I was about 25' feet from some very nasty rocks in a tight
>harbor with no wind.
Your first mistake is thinking, even for a moment, that that was your
"novice crewman's" fault.
>on the motor, there was a brief whine and then a jerk like I had hit a
>wall. Turned out the anchor had bounced out of the roller mount (no retainer
>installed) and gone over board. I heard the 60' of 3/8 chain but not the
>300' of 5/8 nylon. This wrapped around the prop when I started the motor.
Try a piece of 1/4" line, to tie it to the roller. Shit, isn't this stuff
OBVIOUS?
>The jerk was the rode being pulled tight and broken as the prop wrapped it up.
>Being as how the 5/8 nylon has 10,000lb breaking strength it bent the
>prop shaft and strut and cracked the motor mount to hull joints. Repairs
>were about $5500.00. Isn't sailing fun?!
If you know how, yes it is.
>My boat is also chartered all summer, (no way I could afford a 42' without
>charter) Customers tend to be even more incompentent than myself
>(an understatement). They go through 2-3 dingy ropes a summer. A rope around
^^^^^
>the prop shaft plays havoc with the cutlass bearing too.
Then I guess it's good you're using a dingy rope for the painter for your
dinghy; it would be a shame to destroy a clean one.
>So while I have never heard of or seen anyone snagging someone else's line
>Snagging my own lines does happen. How the heck to you manage to snag a
>lobster pot at night anyway? Do the lobsters drag the pots over to your
>prop? :-)
Some of us actually sail at night, though from the above I can understand
why you might not.
All flames aside, do yourself, your crew, and your boat a favor and take a
lesson, okay?
Greg
Greg Bullough
>
>I'm not certain I agree. The next step from "I'm protected from my own
>mistakes" might be "It's OK for me to make mistakes...", and you figure
>you don't *have* to look out for lines anymore...
Except that that would be as bad as not having cutter, 'cause they don't
always work. Personally, I wouldn't test it on MY boat.
>And if I motored over a pot line and got it stuck in the prop, I'd probably do
>my best to cut out the midsection (the stuff around the prop) and attach the
>buoy to the remaining warp, so that at least the pot (which is not cheap) would
>not be lost. The same goes for people's moorings.
I see each type of thing differently. Motoring over a mooring, in an anchorage
is a dumb mistake. Running over a lobstor pot buoy in some areas is an
act of only marginal stupidity; some of them are not very considerately placed.
And some of the colors are fairly invisible.
Overall, though, the safety and well-being of vessels navigating a navigable
waterway and their passengers and crews take precedence over lobster pots and
moorings. If you really wanted to be gentleman, you might retrieve the severed
buoy, find out who the pot belonged to, and send the lobsterman a check. I'd
rather do that than have to dive overside to clear a foul, or maybe ruin a
bearing. And I'd sooner pay a diver to retrieve a severed mooring than have
to pull it out of my prop, AND pay for a chewed-up line.
>>I think that the types of lines these things are for are fishing lines
>>and other small snaggy stuff anyway.
>
>You may be right. The ads I've seen have shown them with something that looked
>a lot like 3-strand pot warp (i.e. 3/8 inch line), and when I looked at one in
>the local chandlery, it was pretty fierce looking. I figured it could cut 1/2"
>nylon with no trouble.
>There *is* an alternative, of course: the lobstermen in Maine all have them:
>it's a kind of basket that surrounds the prop, like the cage around your fan at
>home. Seems to work just fine. Of course, it means a little more drag while
>you're sailing, and perhaps people prefer to cut lines rather than lose a
>quarter knot.
There seem to be a number of alternatives for proper full-keel boats, as well.
Of course the best alternative for all concerned is not to run over buoys!
Greg
Greg Pavlov
> I've been seeing, for the last year or so, advertisements for
> these things that you put on your prop/shaft that makes them into a very
> powerful scissors (in addition to the ordinary function of propelling the
> What do folks think of these things? The Practical Sailor reviewed them
> recently, taking the attitude that most of the lines caught in your prop are
> line so it's OK for me to cut it, because *most* of the time that I screw up I
> do so by fouling my own lines" is pretty sad. It says that being inconsiderate
> is OK, as long as you do it because you're also routinely incompetent.
>
having wrapped a fishing line or two aroud the prop of my 225 hp i/o
drive and knowing that my engine is somewhere below the middle of the
power options available nowadays, I wonder whether you may not be a
bit oversensitive in this case (tho I do appreciae your sentiments).
I assumed, when I saw the ad, that the primary application was fishing
line. When this happened on my boat, the line was totally destroyed
anyway - a twisted mess. I also don't view this as carelessness (perhaps
because I did it): both times that this occurred to me, it was line that
had been snapped while fishing, had dropped to an unseen point below
the surface and (I assume) had been "sucked up" y the prop when I started
the engine. Since, when I fish with three to four kids, we tend to lose
line periodically, I would assume that this will happen on occasion, even
tho I am now well aware of the phenomenon.
If the line is not fishing line, on the other hand, there may be more
serious consequences: I am not sure what would happen to my outdrive or
ngine if I wrapped a reasonably thick "rope" while my prop was spinning
at 300 rpm or so. I would be negligent if it were someone else's, like
a lobsterpot, but what if it doesn't belong to/not attached to anything
belonging to anyone ? And yes, you are right: I may get careless sometime
and drop a rope on my spinning prop. A wave hits, s**t happens. Should
I pay a large repair bill as "punishment" ?
But I do see your point, though I have not tangled anyone else's line
as yet: we don't have lobsterpots to worry about in the interior and
we try to stay well clear of stopped/trolling boats. I also have some
reservations about this cutter from a safety point of view. For instance,
you're in not-so-calm conditions, the water is cold, you bash your prop,
and now you have to lean over the transom in swells and replace the
heaving/partly submerged prop....what's the cutter going to do now ?
greg pavlov
pav...@fstrf.org
Greg Pavlov
> ....... I know that I really wish I had
> stinkpot in Pier 39 marina cast his line in front of me when I had no
> room to maneuver.
>
(actually, I would bet that at any given time in my area, I see more
sailboats stinkpotting than sailing).
John F. Hughes
>
>Then there was the first time I took my new boat out over night (a Catalina 42)
>The boat had been delivered about two weeks before and this was my first
>real sailing experience in it. I was sailing in about 2-3' seas with 20
>knot winds when I heard about 5 seconds of a terrible rattling sound and
>then silence. I check all around the boat and saw nothing amiss so I
>kept sailing for another 2 hours. When I took down the sails and turned
>on the motor, there was a brief whine and then a jerk like I had hit a
>wall. Turned out the anchor had bounced out of the roller mount (no retainer
>installed) and gone over board. I heard the 60' of 3/8 chain but not the
>300' of 5/8 nylon. This wrapped around the prop when I started the motor.
I have a question. Even in the West, where the waters are deep, how did
you sail for 2 hours with 350' of chain and rode out, without ever once
snagging something on the bottom? If this had happened to me in waters under
100' deep, I'd be deeply concerned about the efficacy of my ground tackle.
Assuming that your tackle was somehow hydroplaning behind you, wouldn't you
notice the boat handling differently?
-John
martin.brilliant
> In article <1992Jun22....@SSD.intel.com> jo...@ssd.intel.com (Joel Clark) writes:
>> [in a discussion of prop-line cutters]
>>
>>The boat had been delivered about two weeks before and this was my first
>
> Assuming that your tackle was somehow hydroplaning behind you, wouldn't you
> notice the boat handling differently?
Differently from what? His previous boat?
Marty
ma...@hoqaa.att.com hoqaa!marty
Martin B. Brilliant (Winnertech Corporation)
Peter D. Engels
>
> May I offer a different perspective? I don't own any of these "cutters".
>
> But I have sailed 30-45 footers in the San Jaun Islands in Wash. State USA
> for about 10 years. In that time I have snagged my dingy line about 10 times.
> I have mostly resolved this by using yellow nylon "floaty" rope. I will
> admit to my incompetence. But I still can`t get out of my mind the day
> I picked such an easy task for my novice crewman "Watch the dingy line while
> I back up and make sure it doesn`t get in the prop." A minute later he
> turns to me and says "Why is the dingy trying to go under the boat?".
> At the time I was about 25' feet from some very nasty rocks in a tight
> harbor with no wind.
>
> We don't have lobster pots in this area. We do have crab pots, but I have
> never snagged one. I never get close enough to do so. Even at night I
> have never been close enough to a someone else's crab pot to snag one.
> (There was the time another novice crew decided to leave a crab pot over
> the rail all night. About 3:00 am he goes out to check it and manages to
> get the crab pot itself wrapped around the prop. Prefering to have the
> prop available at any time in case something comes up I went over the side
> at 3:00 to untangle it).
>
> Then there was the first time I took my new boat out over night (a Catalina
42)
> The boat had been delivered about two weeks before and this was my first
> real sailing experience in it. I was sailing in about 2-3' seas with 20
> knot winds when I heard about 5 seconds of a terrible rattling sound and
> then silence. I check all around the boat and saw nothing amiss so I
> kept sailing for another 2 hours. When I took down the sails and turned
> on the motor, there was a brief whine and then a jerk like I had hit a
> wall. Turned out the anchor had bounced out of the roller mount (no retainer
> installed) and gone over board. I heard the 60' of 3/8 chain but not the
> 300' of 5/8 nylon. This wrapped around the prop when I started the motor.
> The jerk was the rode being pulled tight and broken as the prop wrapped it up.
> Being as how the 5/8 nylon has 10,000lb breaking strength it bent the
> prop shaft and strut and cracked the motor mount to hull joints. Repairs
> were about $5500.00. Isn't sailing fun?!
Surely this is someone's idea of a joke?
Sailing for two hours with an ancor, 60 feet of chain AND 300 feet of 5/8
nylon hanging down, without realizing anything was wrong? It certainly
strains one's credulity. What were you drinking that night?
And with all that weight on the anchor line pulling it straight down, how
did it get anywhere near the prop? Give me a break.
-Pete
Timothy E. Hollingsworth
> Of course the best alternative for all concerned is not to run over buoys!
Easy to say if you don't sail in area where the pots are thick! We have
chartered a number of times off the Florida Keys. In some areas avioding the
pots is almost impossible. One year, in a full keeled Morgan 41, under sail,
we where brought to a near halt. Upon investigation (over the side), I found a
pot line in the small slot between the rudder and the keel. We had been making
about 6 knots on a broad reach prior to the snag. I doubt we could replicate
the event in a hundred intentional tries.
--
Tim Hollingsworth
Joel Clark
>In article <1992Jun22....@SSD.intel.com> jo...@ssd.intel.com (Joel Clark) writes:
>>
>>But I have sailed 30-45 footers in the San Jaun Islands in Wash. State USA
>>for about 10 years. In that time I have snagged my dingy line about 10 times.
>>I have mostly resolved this by using yellow nylon "floaty" rope. I will
>>admit to my incompetence.
>
>Ah, yes, but will you DO anything about it? Such as bringing the dinghy up
>snug when motoring, and keeping its line out of the water?
When I am motoring or sailing outside the harbor or mooring area I let the
dinghy out 20'-30' because it rides better, does not flip over in heavy
following seas as much, and produces more speed. When I start to manuever
in close quarters or may back up I try to snug up the dinghy. As you can
tell from my previous post I have occasionally forgotten. You may be happy
to know it has been about 4 years since the last time I did this.
>> But I still can`t get out of my mind the day
>>I picked such an easy task for my novice crewman "Watch the dingy line while
>>I back up and make sure it doesn`t get in the prop." A minute later he
>>turns to me and says "Why is the dingy trying to go under the boat?".
>>At the time I was about 25' feet from some very nasty rocks in a tight
>>harbor with no wind.
>
>Your first mistake is thinking, even for a moment, that that was your
>"novice crewman's" fault.
I never blamed him. Where do you see me calling it his fault? I never
invited him back on a cruise either though :-> The rest of the day involving
8 hours back to home port in 30 knot winds building to 55 knots(as per local
airport records), still air temp about 30 degrees F and 6' to 10' choppy seas
passed without any more problems. One of my best sailing memories in fact.
>
>>on the motor, there was a brief whine and then a jerk like I had hit a
>>wall. Turned out the anchor had bounced out of the roller mount (no retainer
>>installed) and gone over board. I heard the 60' of 3/8 chain but not the
>>300' of 5/8 nylon. This wrapped around the prop when I started the motor.
>
>Try a piece of 1/4" line, to tie it to the roller. Shit, isn't this stuff
>OBVIOUS?
I prefer to tie my retainer to the anchor than the roller. Despite two days
of check out the previous week when the yacht was delivered I failed to
notice the lack of a retainer.
>All flames aside, do yourself, your crew, and your boat a favor and take a
>lesson, okay?
I am sure many of us could use a remedial sailing class, But you would think
that with my experience, 27 years of owning a sailboat of one kind or another,
collegiate sailing classes and competition, 6 racing seasons on a 30 footer,
an average of 40 cruising days a year for over 10 years in the Pacific
Northwest, you would think with this amount of experience I would be able
to avoid these easy problems without a remedial sailing class.
Actually I think your faith in classes to teach people to never make mistakes
is a little naive. None of the classes I ever took talked about wrapping
anchor lines around the prop. I can think of a dozen other "problems" I had
that never came up in class either.
There was the time the power to the bilge pump was shut off while it was
running and the boats was moving, resulting in a back siphon, ( the
manufacturer later sent out a Notice to Owners recommending a siphon break).
We first noticed this when the bilge water appeared above the floorboards.
Or the time I sailed a 44' 33000lbs boat into the marina with no motor because
the batterys were more useful as anchors (A boat I chartered) No damage done.
Or the time my sailing buddy pulled the furling line out of the spool on the
roller furler foresail in a 30+ knot wind allowing the 130% genoa to fully
unfurl. Now that was exciting!
And on and on.
>
>Greg
Greg Bullough
>In article <88pl8c...@netcom.com> gr...@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) writes:
>>In article <1992Jun22....@SSD.intel.com> jo...@ssd.intel.com (Joel Clark) writes:
>
>I never blamed him. Where do you see me calling it his fault? I never
>invited him back on a cruise either though :->
When you characterize it as a "simple task," you seem to be blaming him.
Tasks are only simple when you understand them. If you had said "keep the
dinghy line OUT OF THE WATER or the engine will suck it in," he might have
understood. Clearly he was baffled by what happened. And, since you never
asked him back, there must be some hard feelings.
>>Try a piece of 1/4" line, to tie it to the roller. Shit, isn't this stuff
>>OBVIOUS?
>
>I prefer to tie my retainer to the anchor than the roller. Despite two days
>of check out the previous week when the yacht was delivered I failed to
>notice the lack of a retainer.
>
>>All flames aside, do yourself, your crew, and your boat a favor and take a
>>lesson, okay?
>
>I am sure many of us could use a remedial sailing class, But you would think
>that with my experience, 27 years of owning a sailboat of one kind or another,
>collegiate sailing classes and competition, 6 racing seasons on a 30 footer,
>an average of 40 cruising days a year for over 10 years in the Pacific
>Northwest, you would think with this amount of experience I would be able
>to avoid these easy problems without a remedial sailing class.
>
>Actually I think your faith in classes to teach people to never make mistakes
>is a little naive. None of the classes I ever took talked about wrapping
>anchor lines around the prop. I can think of a dozen other "problems" I had
>that never came up in class either.
True. One thing a class often won't teach is common-sense seamanship. Or how to
be a "skipper" rather than a "boat driver." There is one private instructor
here in the Bay Area who advertises such things, taught on your own boat. I
think it makes great good sense.
I do know that there are people whom these kinds of things happen to, a lot.
And those who almost never have them happen. What's the difference? What's the
difference in their approach to the task of commanding a vessel that doesn't
let this kind of stuff happen? Are these the same folks who are defensive
drivers in automobiles, and who rarely get caught in bad weather when
piloting airplanes? I believe they are.
I don't attribute it to luck. No, not at all. To a very great extent, a
good skipper makes his or her own luck.
Sailing classes follow ASA curricula, by and large. They don't talk about
"shows good judgement in evaluating weather conditions." That is where they
fail, because every yahoo who opens up a sailing school just follows the
numbers, and his program is certified. Even if his students have no sea
sense what so ever.
Flight instructors (the good ones) pay close attention to where the students
attention is at any given time, and they teach students to ask themselves
"what if." Would that more sailing instructors would do the same, rather
than concentrating on exactly how to back and fill most efficiently.
Greg
John F. Hughes
>[...]One thing a class often won't teach is common-sense seamanship. Or how to
>be a "skipper" rather than a "boat driver." There is one private instructor
>here in the Bay Area who advertises such things, taught on your own boat. I
>think it makes great good sense.
>
>[Good skippers are defensive drivers and pilots...]
>[Good skippers make their own luck...]
>[ASA curricula don't discuss seamanship much, if at all...]
>
>Flight instructors (the good ones) pay close attention to where the students
>attention is at any given time, and they teach students to ask themselves
>"what if."
I can't recall whether it was Greg or someone else who sent me mail saying that
he liked to stay "two mistakes" away from the other guy. The meaning was:
"If *I* make a mistake, and *he* makes a mistake, will we still avoid a
collision?"
This is a good question to ask yourself in general when you're sailing. My own
preferred questions to ask myself are (1) "What might break next?" (2) "What
would I do about a man overboard right now?" and (3) "Who is around me that
might cause problems for me?" The questions are in no particular order.
The "two mistakes" rule applies to each of these, too. What *two* things might
break? What if someone went over *and* something else went wrong (which is all
too likely)? Who might cause problems for me, especially if I were to lose
control for a moment?
I discovered, this past weekend, what an ugly thing a man overboard could be.
This is not because I lost someone, although I could facetiously say that I
lost a valuaed crew member. We were drifting along at about 1.5 kts, broad
reach, flat seas, and had decided to wash beneath the cockpit floorboards. SO
we had cocked the floorboards up, and I was hoisting water aboard with my
canvas bucket while my wife was working with the scrub brush. (No nasty
comments here--she had, on deciding to clean beneath the floorboards, planned
to do both, but her back was sore so I offered to hoist the bucket. I cleaned
the mildew out the lazarette last week and cleaned the head before we left the
boat, OK?) Well, I screwed up. I got the bucket half full of water, and then
manged to let go of the line with both hands. (Some days your brain's just not
engaged.) I said "Shit. I just dropped the bucket..." and Cynthia and I both
looked at it. I was thinking "Hop in the dinghy and go after it? Dive in? Slam
tack?" I must have thought for about 3-5 seconds before I dragged the dink along
side and hopped in. I ran back up our wake, but the bucket had sunk already.
Sigh. In that 3 seconds, the bucket was already a good distance behind us.
In the few more seconds it had taken to get into the dink and start the motor,
I'd lost track of it, and by the time I was back to it, it had sunk.
What should I have done? Probably just what I *did* do. I could've dove over
and saved it, but I had my wallet in my pocket and my glasses on. Losing either
would have annoyed me more than losing the bucket. But if it had been a man
overboard, those few seconds of thinking could have lead to real troubles. And
this was in calm weather. So all that preparatory thought about man overboard
drills lead to what, in retrospect, was probably the right decision, but not to
an actual recovery. Sigh.
-John
Dave Angelini
I will rise to Joel's defense. There are some folks that you should
tie up with the dingy line and even then they will be problems. If you
use all your best skills as a skipper they still invite disaster. You
just hope they are here for a reason!
David Zielke
When I attended the safety offshore course at the Naval Acadamy in
Annapolis (a wonderful course, take both days!!!) they noted some
statistics. Man Overboard in offshore/realistic conditions results in
extremely low recovery statistics. Some estimates range as low as 50% being
recovered successfully by the original boat and of those 40% needed some
form of significant first aid (rescue breathing/CPR/etc). The overwhelming
comment was DON'T FALL OVERBOARD!
> Sigh. In that 3 seconds, the bucket was already a good distance behind us.
> In the few more seconds it had taken to get into the dink and start the motor,
> I'd lost track of it, and by the time I was back to it, it had sunk.
This is an extremely good point! I am a fanatic about harnesses and life
preservers. I absolutely require wearing either a life preserver or
inflating harness when night sailing. (which is about 80% of my sailing! I
left the dock last night at 7:00 pm and returned to the dock at 5:00 am this
morning, I had intended to be back about 1:00 am but the winds worked
against me).
David Zielke
'Botany Bay'
Cal 35 Hull 006