Auto Vs Marine Engines
Dan Rose
something about engines.
I was speaking with my marina this
weekend discussing my repowering options and
they told me something that I was not aware of.
(Which is very possible, I'm not a mechanic
never claimed to be one)
I told my marina that I was thinking about
buying rebuilt 350's to replace my existing 305's
using automotive based engines. My marina said
they would recommend NOT doing this, there is
more to marine'izing an engine then just
replacing the parts that rust. Basically my marina's
point was the a automotive engine was not designed
to run 3500 - 3800 RPM all day, once a car engine
hit this RPM level it shifts and drops down to about
1900.
Does this sound correct to folks? When I see the
adds for rebuilt engines are these engines marine based?
What is done to a marine engine that allows it to run
at 3500 all day without problems or shorted life span.
Thanks
Dan
H Krause
The differences between ordinary "marine" car engines and regular car
engines are mostly related to safety, not performance.
A gasoline powered marine engine, outboard or inboard, should last a
long time if engine speeds generally are kept at 70-75% of wide open
throttle.
If you have a marinized car engine in your boat, and the power of the
engine is appropriate and you have the right prop and you change the oil
frequently and otherwise maintain it, you'll get a long life out of that
engine.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
I'm out of bed and dressed...what more do you want?
Harvey L
only. Carbs as a minimum are different, although I am not sure this
applies to fuel injected engines.
Sma4264
>point was the a automotive engine was not designed
>to run 3500 - 3800 RPM all day, once a car engine
>hit this RPM level it shifts and drops down to about
>1900.
It's not the block that dictates what RPM's it runs at. If you were to buy an
automotive block and protect it from rust that would be just fine. The
difference they may be referering to is, the transmission, carb, or
ignition/timing circuit.
SA
http://www.twow.com/bluefin/mothership.html
Help Find Rachel Newhouse Goto http://www.gracenote.com/rachel
Mark Whatman
> <snip>
>
> I told my marina that I was thinking about
> buying rebuilt 350's to replace my existing 305's
> using automotive based engines. My marina said
> they would recommend NOT doing this, there is
> more to marine'izing an engine then just
> replacing the parts that rust. Basically my marina's
> point was the a automotive engine was not designed
> to run 3500 - 3800 RPM all day, once a car engine
> hit this RPM level it shifts and drops down to about
> 1900.
<snip>
> What is done to a marine engine that allows it to run
> at 3500 all day without problems or shorted life span.
Ok, here we go again..........just kidding. Here's the scoop.
Non-high perfromance Gasoline Marine Engines are identical to Gasoline
Automotive Engines with the exception of:
1. Brass "freeze plugs"
2. Cam shaft profile (sometimes they are the same, depending on the land
based application)
3. Starter
4. Distributor
5. Fuel Pump
6. Carburator and/or fuel injection
7. Air cleaner / spark arrestor
8. Flywheel, depending on application.
9. Alternator
10. Thermostat housing and exhaust system
11. Oil Pan. depending on application
None of these have anything to do with longevity. A properly maintained
and installed V8 will last as long at 3800 rpm as it will at 1900 rpm.
High performance engines are a different breed and tend to be more like
pure racing motors than anything that's been put in a land based vehicle
for many years. I can go into the differences in detail but I'm sure
I'd bore the pants of the NG.
The best repower deal for the 350 small block is the GM Power crate 350
HP marine motor. This comes with everything but the accessories already
on your 305's and the correct carb. These motors use the good forged
internal parts and will outlast the basic 350's in almost every
application. You can buy this motor from any Chevy parts counter but
your best deal would be to find a shop that specializes in marine
repower in your area and request the GM Power crate motor (BTW, It's
EXACTLY what Mercruiser uses, they are GM Power's biggest customer).
I say to use the GM Power MARINE application because it comes from the
factory with brass plugs and the correct cam to run in a boat.
"Typical" hot rod small blocks have cams in them that move the power
band too high into the rev range to be of any use in a boat.
Here's a link to the GM Power web page.
http://www.gmpowertrain.com/products.htm
Look at the marine engines, especially this link:
5.7L V8 GEN IE Without Intake Manifold Marine Engine
Hope this helps.
--
Mark Whatman
mailto:mwha...@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~mwhatman
Dan Rose
transmissions, they are borg-warner, the carbs are the same,
the ignition/timing circuit i'm not sure, but if these things
are the same that you mentioned, then blocks themselves are
are the same? correct?
My marina was telling me they are not, a marina block was designed
to run at ~3500 while an automotive engine was not.
Dan
> It's not the block that dictates what RPM's it runs at. If you were to buy an
> automotive block and protect it from rust that would be just fine. The
> difference they may be referering to is, the transmission, carb, or
> ignition/timing circuit.
>
> SA
> http://www.twow.com/bluefin/mothership.html
> Help Find Rachel Newhouse Goto http://www.gracenote.com/rachel
--
*******************************
Daniel L. Rose dr...@lucent.com
Lucent Technologies BCS R&D
(732)957-2073
Mark Whatman
> I'm not sure I understand, I'm going to be using my same
> transmissions, they are borg-warner, the carbs are the same,
> the ignition/timing circuit i'm not sure, but if these things
> are the same that you mentioned, then blocks themselves are
> are the same? correct?
>
> My marina was telling me they are not, a marina block was designed
> to run at ~3500 while an automotive engine was not.
>
> Dan
>
Dan,
Not to be a smart a** but GET YOURSELF A NEW MARINA or at least make sure the one
you have never touches your motor, they don't know what they are talking about.
They are just reiterating what their supplier says, you know, the one that SELLS
them stuff.
GM V8 blocks are identical. PERIOD. You can pick from 2 bolt and 4 bolt mains
(bottom end) and different generations (1 or 2) but that's all. There's no such
thing as a block that's made to run ~3500.
Put in the good parts, run the correct cam, ignition timing, carburation and
cooling and that's all you have to worry about.
Also, don't just go to the local rebuild shop and buy a rebuild, you never know
what's inside. Either rebuild yours or buy a new crate motor.
Cameron Spears
>Non-high perfromance Gasoline Marine Engines are identical to Gasoline
>Automotive Engines with the exception of:
>1. Brass "freeze plugs"
>2. Cam shaft profile (sometimes they are the same, depending on the land
>based application)
>3. Starter
>4. Distributor
>5. Fuel Pump
>6. Carburator and/or fuel injection
>7. Air cleaner / spark arrestor
>8. Flywheel, depending on application.
>9. Alternator
>10. Thermostat housing and exhaust system
>11. Oil Pan. depending on application
I recall learning *somewhere* (maybe in this newsgroup) that another
difference was a more corrosion-resistant head gasket in the marine
applications. Is this true, or did I get some "bad newsgroup info" or
is my brain starting to deteriorate earlier than I'd like? Thanks.
Happy boating,
Cameron
Mark Whatman
> I recall learning *somewhere* (maybe in this newsgroup) that another
> difference was a more corrosion-resistant head gasket in the marine
> applications. Is this true, or did I get some "bad newsgroup info" or
> is my brain starting to deteriorate earlier than I'd like? Thanks.
>
> Happy boating,
> Cameron
Nope, your brain is right on target, I forgot about the "Marine" gasket set.
It's not critical but it's relatively cheap insurance. It's more applicable
to salt water applications and yes, it substitutes stainless in the head
gasket and uses a different material in the intake and exhaust set. Again,
not critical but certainly worth the money.
Fel-Pro makes a complete marine set for about half of the Merc. price.
Rod McInnis
Dan Rose wrote:
>
> My marina said
> they would recommend NOT doing this, there is
> more to marine'izing an engine then just
> replacing the parts that rust. Basically my marina's
> point was the a automotive engine was not designed
> to run 3500 - 3800 RPM all day, once a car engine
> hit this RPM level it shifts and drops down to about
> 1900.
There isn't anything that is done to the engine that makes them more
tolerent to sustained running at the higher RPMs. Note that a marine
engine will never see the peak RPMs that an automotive engine would see,
so the engines are NOT optimized for top end.
There are reasons for a "marine" engine. A few of the differences
are:
BASIC BLOCK:
Brass freeze plugs instead of steel (very important if you are running
a raw water cooling system)
Head gasket (same concern with the freeze plugs).
The camshaft is often different (low end torque).
"Long block" items :
The intake manifold would be different.
All the fuel related items (fuel pump & carberator) should be a marine
version.
All electrical items (distributor, starter, alternator, regulator)
should be marine
If you install a standard automotive engine into your boat, it will
run fine for a while. My gravest concern would be your safety, as you
would be sitting on a time bomb. An automotive fuel pump will fail in a
way that allows gas to escape outside the pump. A standard automotive
starter makes massive sparks during operation. The two of these
together equates to an accident that is just waiting to happen.
Rod McInnis
hidda
Dan Rose wrote in message <367EC36F...@lucent.com>...
>I'm not sure I understand, I'm going to be using my same
>transmissions, they are borg-warner, the carbs are the same,
>the ignition/timing circuit i'm not sure, but if these things
>are the same that you mentioned, then blocks themselves are
>are the same? correct?
>
>My marina was telling me they are not, a marina block was designed
>to run at ~3500 while an automotive engine was not.
>
>
> Dan
I'm sure you've waded through all the posts about how to marinize a block
and about safety factors, etc. However, what people have not made a big
point about is the fact that the power curves on the engines you are looking
at are probably NOT what you want. If the engines (and cams) are from a
car, you will not be satisfied with the performance. The horsepower is
generated at too high an rpm compared to what normally goes into boats.
I've seen several cases where people have taken a car engine and rebuilt it.
Put in all the USCG approved parts. Drop that puppy into the boat and find
out that it's really a dog. The engine can't get the boat up on plane like
a Merc, Volvo, etc. engine can, because there's not enough power at lower
rpms.
Your marina is telling you the truth. You're really better off with an
engine from a source that knows how to marinize engines properly.
One thing I haven't seen anybody talk to you about. Make sure your trannies
and shafts can handle the increased horsepower. Seen a few people blow
their shafts when they repowered and didn't think about their shafts. Of
course, you'll need to reprop the boat too.
Dennis
Remove HORMEL from hi...@yaHORMELhoo.com to email
Dave Brown
> 1. Brass "freeze plugs"
Let's try and kill another myth while we're at it. These are not freeze
plugs, but core plugs (used to knock out casting material after the pour).
If these puppies are knocked out due to freezing, you're screwed.
--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina
http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/
Eisboch
>
> My past experience has been that this is correct for the short block
> only. Carbs as a minimum are different, although I am not sure this
> applies to fuel injected engines.
Huh?
Eisboch
H82LUZ1
Mike G.
Toyscarab
plugs.
Bud Feuless 14
other things. Automotive carbs are designed to dump excess gasoline onto
the pavement. In the boat, this is your bilge. Sparks are quite possible
with non-marine starters, solenoids, and alternators. This says nothing
about retrofitting the cooling system and fuel system and adding anodes to
strategic points. It is patently unsafe for anyone not extremely familiar
with the marinization of engines to perform this retrofit. It is also not
too cost-effective. Don't do it! If you must, then please let me know what
marina you will be starting your engine at, so that I can make sure I am
elsewhere when you blow sky high! - Bud
Sma4264
they aren't manufacturing it with a different metal...right?
Claude Pio
marinas even Mercruiser want people to think that marine engines are
different. If you ask them what the difference is they wont tell you.
They make allot of money because of that. If you ask them to rebuild
your engine they will turn around and buy a rebuilt car engine and dress
it with your accessories and manifolds. Many people have taken marine
engines apart to find that all the parts are car engine parts.
99 % of marine IO engines are car engines, nothing was done to the
engine to make it run at 3500 RPM all day. That is why an engine
installed in a boat lasts allot less than a similar engine installed in
a car. You will find though that marine engines tend to be truck
engines. For example most GM 350 engines installed in boats are the four
bolt main engines with the 202 heads that usually come on trucks.
The engine becomes a marine engine when they install a marine starter,
fuel pump, thermostat housing, alternator, distributor, sump, carburetor
and exhaust manifolds. These parts are different, and never attempt to
use an automotive part to replace any of these parts in a boat. It is
very dangerous.
Years ago they used to install brass freeze plugs for marine engines and
stainless steel I think for car engines. Now all engines have brass
freeze plugs.
All you need to do is find a good 4 bolt main 350 block and get it
rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder, make sure he uses good quality head
and other gaskets, dress it up with your accessories out of your old
engine and your in business. Make sure you find out if your engine is a
pre 86 or post 86 engine so you can get a similar used engine. The
difference is in the flywheel size.
I know a good rebuilder who is Mercruiser certified to rebuild
Mercruiser engines in the Toronto area. If you like I can give you the
particulars.
Dan Rose wrote:
> I have a general question to ask you folks who know
> something about engines.
>
> I was speaking with my marina this
> weekend discussing my repowering options and
> they told me something that I was not aware of.
> (Which is very possible, I'm not a mechanic
> never claimed to be one)
>
> I told my marina that I was thinking about
> buying rebuilt 350's to replace my existing 305's
> using automotive based engines. My marina said
> they would recommend NOT doing this, there is
> more to marine'izing an engine then just
> replacing the parts that rust. Basically my marina's
> point was the a automotive engine was not designed
> to run 3500 - 3800 RPM all day, once a car engine
> hit this RPM level it shifts and drops down to about
> 1900.
>
> Does this sound correct to folks? When I see the
> adds for rebuilt engines are these engines marine based?
>
> What is done to a marine engine that allows it to run
> at 3500 all day without problems or shorted life span.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan
Guy Groomes
with automotive engines, and bolt on the marine stuff off your old
engine......Walla! you now have a marine 350cid. Just use your specs from
your marine 305 when setting timing etc. on your new engine. But
remember....becareful not to substitute starters etc. use only marine
starters, distributors, etc. to maintain a degree of explosion protection.
P.S. Use to be a marine Mechanic, and still do plenty of swap outs. Know a
day's pretty much stick to electrical and electronics.
Good Luck
Guy
Mrs.. G and Me III
H Krause
So...you just leave that truck cam in there, eh?
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
I'm between the age of consent and the age of collapse.
BikeMan1
>fuel pump, thermostat housing, alternator, distributor, sump, carburetor
>and exhaust manifolds. These parts are different, and never attempt to
>use an automotive part to replace any of these parts in a boat. It is
>very dangerous.
Sounds to me by what you say about that they are differant eng. I don't knwo
anyone that will say the are 100% differant but there are enough thing to make
them differant.
yes you can use a car eng if you know what you are doing
Dan Rose
it sure helps. Some of the post suggest not using
automotive accessories and I agree 100%. It was never my
attention to use automotive accessories, all my accessories
will be rebuilt or new for marina applications. My question
was directed strictly to the block itself. It seems to
me that if I use a 350 four bolt main, use the intake
manifold off my 305's, rebuild my Borg-Warner transmissions
and replace my cooling system (new) and rebuild by
starter,alternator,and carbs off my 305's I think I have
a winning combo! My only concern is the shafts in my
boat are only 1 inch thick stainless steel. Most folks
I've talked to say this shouldn't be a problem, my marina
(who is a chris craft dealer) said it shouldn't be a problem.
And one more thing I forgot, it was my marina suggestion
that if i'm going to rebuild, rebuild my own 305's.
But I'm not sure about this either, my engines are 1985,
and there raw water cooled, do I really want them?
Isn't corrosion a problem on these engines?
I can't wait until this whole thing is behind me and
i'm crusing up the Hudson again watching the working folks
rush home from work.
Again, thanks to everyone for your help, and happy
holidays!
Dan
Toyscarab
>they aren't manufacturing it with a different metal...right?
>
>
The blocks themselves are the same. No matter what they are built for.
Mike G.
Dave Brown
> > P.S. Use to be a marine Mechanic, and still do plenty of swap outs. Know a
> > day's pretty much stick to electrical and electronics.
> > Good Luck
> > Guy
> > Mrs.. G and Me III
>
> So...you just leave that truck cam in there, eh?
Geez Harry, he *said* he used to be a marine mechanic -- let it go! ;-)
Guy Groomes
after market high performance cam. You can purchase a cam designed for low
torque. Don't buy one from a marine dealer, go to your local race shop to
buy the cam. If you really wana haul but, replace those soft lifters with
good aftermarket racing hydraulic or solid one...Still half the cost of what
the marina wants to sell you.
Guy
Toyscarab
>So...you just leave that truck cam in there, eh?
Guy is correct with one small exception.
Harry has a point. Actually, you can run that "truck" cam in a marine
application. The rpm and torque range may be a little off, but it will work.
If you are rebuilding the motors anyway, you will be replacing the cam with a
new one. Might as well get the best cam for your application. A marine cam is
made of the same materials, turns the same way, works the same way, cost
pretty much the same. It just has a slightly different profile. Actually,
with some of the more high performance boats, a hi perf. street cam is the way
to go.
I'm not sure about the 2.02 heads, but guy is right. Aside from a slight
difference in cam profile, the long block in your 1/2 ton truck, or your
Camaro, is the same as the one in your boat.
Mike G.
Guy Groomes
Guy Groomes
Sorry
Guy
Mark Whatman
> Mark Whatman wrote:
>
> > 1. Brass "freeze plugs"
>
> Let's try and kill another myth while we're at it. These are not freeze
> plugs, but core plugs (used to knock out casting material after the pour).
> If these puppies are knocked out due to freezing, you're screwed.
>
I couldn't remember the correct term so that's why quoted the term "freeze
plugs". Your right, if freezing water pops them then you're major league
screwed.
Thanks.
Dwaine
Mark Whatman wrote in message <367FD1B1...@worldnet.att.net>...
Dave Brown wrote:
> Mark Whatman wrote:
>
> > 1. Brass "freeze plugs"
>
> Let's try and kill another myth while we're at it. These are not freeze
> plugs, but core plugs (used to knock out casting material after the pour).
> If these puppies are knocked out due to freezing, you're screwed.
>
>I couldn't remember the correct term so that's why quoted the term "freeze
>plugs". Your right, if freezing water pops them then you're major league
>screwed.
I Agree with your statements but I did once have them save me from a costly
mistake. I own a 67 datsun roadster. I drained the water out of the engine
but there was still water in the block. the engine froze but it just poped
the freez plugs out. I lucked out big time.
Dwaine Hubach
www.tite-line.com home of the Flush-Pro.
The boat winterization tool every boat owner should have.
Mark Lenox
1" shafts are plenty big enough for small-block V8's. Even
high-performance 350's in inboard ski boats generally run 1" shafts.
There are a few that run 1-1/8", but it really shouldn't be necessary.
I don't think I'd worry about rebuilding your 305's. In 1986, GM went
to a 1-piece rear main seal that is more reliable than the old 2-piece
units. A switch to a post-1986 block is recommended for that reason
alone, and if you're going to switch blocks, add the additional
displacement of the 350, you won't regret it, and it won't cost you much
more either.
Mark Lenox
Bill McKee
Toyscarab wrote:
> And dave is right. I believe the proper term is "welch" plugs, not freeze
> plugs.
I think the term "freeze plugs" came from the fact you froze them before
installing. They shrunk a little and made them easier to install.
Bill
Rod McInnis
H82LUZ1 wrote:
>
> I think CAM is more different from car to boat than you may think.
> Mike G.
But not that different from truck to boat.
If you have a go-fast boat, then you would probably want a "high
performance" cam, one that will provide better top end. But if the
engine is going in a cruiser, and is never going to see more than 4500
RPM, you don't need top end, you need low end torque.
Rod McInnis
Bill
an 1 1/8 shaft given no reduction and a small wheel. When you go reduction
boxs and larger wheels 1 1/4 is a better match.
Mark Lenox wrote in message <367FE453...@cti-pet.com>...
Sma4264
>was directed strictly to the block itself.
aahhh I have been redeemed!! I wasn't off then in my original post.
JJames915
of them it is related to safety not longevity.
midd...@avalon.net
heavier duty parts: bearings and crank, rods and pistons (not cast but
hypereutectic or forged). Expansion plugs (mistakenly referred to as
freeze plugs) are bronze. marine distributors, starters and alternators
have special screens that prevent internal sparks from igniting any fuel
vapor should it be present in the "engine room" Marine carburetors are
vented to the throat instead of to the atmosphere for the same reason.
Marine distributors do not have vacuum advance. The camshafts are torque
cams as opposed to high output horsepower, except in the case of HO
marine motors. also, sometimes marine camshafts have different overlap
to prevent water from entering the cylinders. The blocks are four bolt
main instead of two bolt main. The intake manifolds include special
protection, sometimes, to prevent corrosion.
Marine mechanics, no matter how long they have been working on motors,
are not necessarily experts on anything.
My source for the above information are the engineers at MerCruiser who
are in charge of marinizing the small block and large block GM 5.7s and
8.2 liter motors.
Get ready for the 6.0 liter motors coming in a couple of years....
Tim Banse - gas engines editor Motor Boating & Sailing magazine since
1982
da...@cris.com
>marinas even Mercruiser want people to think that marine engines are
>different. If you ask them what the difference is they wont tell you.
>They make allot of money because of that. If you ask them to rebuild
>your engine they will turn around and buy a rebuilt car engine and dress
>it with your accessories and manifolds. Many people have taken marine
>engines apart to find that all the parts are car engine parts.
>99 % of marine IO engines are car engines, nothing was done to the
>engine to make it run at 3500 RPM all day. That is why an engine
>installed in a boat lasts allot less than a similar engine installed in
>a car. You will find though that marine engines tend to be truck
>engines. For example most GM 350 engines installed in boats are the four
>bolt main engines with the 202 heads that usually come on trucks.
Doing good except the 2.02 valves. This is not usually found on a
truck block. "202s" are used for high rpm flow/power. They have little
advantage below ~4000 rpm. Truck apps are not in this category.
A truck block basically gets you the 4 bolt mains as you mentioned,
extra webbing/girdling in that area and .100 higher deck height.
Danny
*other good info snipped*
Harbin Osteen
Rod McInnis wrote:
> Dan Rose wrote:
> >
> > My marina said
> > they would recommend NOT doing this, there is
> > more to marine'izing an engine then just
> > replacing the parts that rust. Basically my marina's
> > point was the a automotive engine was not designed
> > to run 3500 - 3800 RPM all day, once a car engine
> > hit this RPM level it shifts and drops down to about
> > 1900.
>
> There isn't anything that is done to the engine that makes them more
> tolerent to sustained running at the higher RPMs. Note that a marine
> engine will never see the peak RPMs that an automotive engine would see,
> so the engines are NOT optimized for top end.
>
>
>
> Rod McInnis
Howdy Rod:
I have to disagree with you on this. I worked at the Union Marina, Wa., and built
yachts in San Diego Ca, at Knight & Carver Marine Construction. We always
ordered a maranized short block because they are balanced & blueprinted.
The flywheel, crank, pistons & rods are balanced together so they can work at
a high rpm for a long time, and not create any appreciable ware over time that
you would get with unbalanced parts. The blocks are also blueprinted, in that the
crank, and cam journals are center board, and trued, block decked, debured
(to prevent cracks, and improve oil flow), and I believe they ran the main bearings
at a higher tolerance also. Oh, and it cost more.
--
SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen
MUSCLE CAR MANIA L.T.D.
Over 2500 General Links!
http://www.ca-connection.com/~muscle/INDEX.htm
!sdohtem noitpyrcne devorppa-tnemnrevog troppus I
Do you fly? Want to live?:
http://www.communique.com/aircrash.html
PInc972390
> Mike G.
>
Wrong, Have seen Chevrolet blocks that say HP Truck, HP Bus, or HP Pass
stamped on the back right of the block in front of the flywheel. Think some of
them are aligned bored and some not.
JJames915
>stamped on the back right of the block in front of the flywheel. Think some
>of
Half wrong. Pre 86 blocks did come in a larger variety of casting. Some
prefered over others because of thicker webs at the mains. Nothing stamped in
the block makes them vary though, it is the cast marking that identify the
casting. The stamps are added based on what is subsequently done to the block.
Post 86 block 350's are all the same, even the 4 bolt vs 2 bolt is machining
differences. Very unusual to find forged pistons or cranks in late model
engines also, even gm hp marine engine. Hypereutectic cast pistons are the
rule now a days in gm hp engines. They are almost as strong as forged but do
not have the expansion problems of forged pistons.
Klaatu
Thanks to one and all! I feel kinda smarter...kinda.
Anywho...that was a GREAT thread!
Clif4688
Bryon Kass
>
> now what if he finds a couple of GM 350 Diesels? will that work??
Bryon Kass
webmaster and
Custom Design
150 Mechanic St.
Foxboro, MA 02035
508-543-9068 or fax 508-543-5127, Foot yard 508-384-2415
in THE ENGINE ROOM http://home.ici.net/~cusdn
Ph1098
you don't know, just buy a short block marine motor.
look there are basics, but if you haven't rebuilt motors before, then don't
start now. i blew up my first motor, but i figured it out the second time.