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The right wing anti-technology types won't like this!!!
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iBoaterer
May 10, 2013, 8:17:50 AM5/10/13
to
BAR
May 12, 2013, 9:41:24 AM5/12/13
to
In article <MPG.2bf5d10c3...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cwydck5
More proof that Consumer Reports is a useless rag.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cwydck5
More proof that Consumer Reports is a useless rag.
John H
May 12, 2013, 10:01:33 AM5/12/13
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comment about reliability, which was not scored.
I saw one on the way to Richmond the other day. I-95 was stopped (naturally), and the Tesla was
right next to me. Good looking car.
John H.
--
Hope you're having a great day!
Wayne B
May 12, 2013, 11:20:12 AM5/12/13
to
That seems a bit harsh. I've always thought their car reviews were
pretty good in fact. They've always been a big fan of Toyotas and so
am I. If CR didn't like a lot of what Detroit was producing, that's
just a reflection of their accuracy and perceptiveness in my opinion.
BAR
May 12, 2013, 11:43:52 AM5/12/13
to
In article <u5cvo893up9sd7o4a...@4ax.com>, waynebatr...@hotmail.com
says...
They myth of the Toyota has been blown up in recent years.
says...
iBoaterer
May 12, 2013, 11:58:52 AM5/12/13
to
In article <MPG.2bf966108...@news.giganews.com>, sc...@you.com
says...
told that new technology is bad?
says...
>
> In article <MPG.2bf5d10c3...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/cwydck5
>
> More proof that Consumer Reports is a useless rag.
Cite this alleged "proof". Is it because like other FOXite's you've been
> In article <MPG.2bf5d10c3...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/cwydck5
>
> More proof that Consumer Reports is a useless rag.
told that new technology is bad?
iBoaterer
May 12, 2013, 11:59:34 AM5/12/13
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Wayne B
May 12, 2013, 12:34:50 PM5/12/13
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There's no myth - the darn things are like the energizer bunny; they
just keep running and running and running. They're not perfect but
my wife and I have owned a bunch of them. All have gone well over ten
years and well over 150,000 miles with only minimal unscheduled
maintenance. Several were eventually handed down to the kids. I'm
still driving my V8, 4WD Tundra which is now almost 12 years old and
over 100K miles. That's my definition of reliability and low upkeep.
The Honda Accords are excellent also. I've only owned three Detroit
products in my adult years. All were purchased new, or almost new,
and maintained to factory schedules. None of them made it past 6 or
7 years, and all of them had become maintenance hogs by that time.
I wish Toyota made boat engines. Those V-8s they use in the Tundra
would be real winners.
John H
May 12, 2013, 1:39:37 PM5/12/13
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hind teat.
True North
May 12, 2013, 1:39:16 PM5/12/13
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Four years with the RAV4 and I can't remember a single problem that I had to take it in for...other than scheduled semi-annual oil changes and 2 safety recalls.
Sure hope my new Highlander is as reliable.
Seven weeks and I have almost 2000 kilometers on the odometer.
Sure hope my new Highlander is as reliable.
Seven weeks and I have almost 2000 kilometers on the odometer.
John H
May 12, 2013, 1:42:51 PM5/12/13
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than maintenance. I'd buy them again. My wife's thinking of a RAV4 for her next 'girlie car'.
True North
May 12, 2013, 1:57:06 PM5/12/13
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Proves she's the brains of your family.
iBoaterer
May 12, 2013, 1:58:06 PM5/12/13
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iBoaterer
May 12, 2013, 2:03:47 PM5/12/13
to
In article <evdvo81el1srcunlh...@4ax.com>,
salmo...@gmail.com says...
As usual, you'd be wrong.
http://tinyurl.com/7raeolv
http://tinyurl.com/budyg4k
http://tinyurl.com/3dtevlz
salmo...@gmail.com says...
http://tinyurl.com/7raeolv
http://tinyurl.com/budyg4k
http://tinyurl.com/3dtevlz
John H
May 12, 2013, 2:10:25 PM5/12/13
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On Sun, 12 May 2013 10:57:06 -0700 (PDT), True North <prince...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Proves she's the brains of your family.
Absolutely no doubt about that!
>Proves she's the brains of your family.
Have you noticed yourself following Harry around to pat him on the back for his personal attacks?
Wayne B
May 12, 2013, 2:13:54 PM5/12/13
to
On Sun, 12 May 2013 14:03:47 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
wrote:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/budyg4k
====
"No American-made autos made the magazine's Top 10 list for 2013, so
it created a second list of just cars made in the USA. Read on ..."
Are you sure that's the point you were trying to make?
wrote:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/budyg4k
====
"No American-made autos made the magazine's Top 10 list for 2013, so
it created a second list of just cars made in the USA. Read on ..."
Are you sure that's the point you were trying to make?
True North
May 12, 2013, 2:32:48 PM5/12/13
to
No.....but I've noticed your endless trolling trying to agitate and get a response out of Harry.
What's up with that?
What's up with that?
iBoaterer
May 12, 2013, 3:19:49 PM5/12/13
to
In article <cmmvo8pov39t03gm7...@4ax.com>,
salmo...@gmail.com says...
salmo...@gmail.com says...
>
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 10:57:06 -0700 (PDT), True North <prince...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Proves she's the brains of your family.
>
> Absolutely no doubt about that!
>
> Have you noticed yourself following Harry around to pat him on the back for his personal attacks?
>
> John H.
Another troll.
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 10:57:06 -0700 (PDT), True North <prince...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Proves she's the brains of your family.
>
> Absolutely no doubt about that!
>
> Have you noticed yourself following Harry around to pat him on the back for his personal attacks?
>
> John H.
iBoaterer
May 12, 2013, 3:21:00 PM5/12/13
to
In article <ismvo8tgdigvfsbt4...@4ax.com>,
waynebatr...@hotmail.com says...
Yes, it is. Notice if you will, the list for U.S. cars includes 2
Chrysler models.
waynebatr...@hotmail.com says...
Chrysler models.
Eisboch
May 12, 2013, 3:32:58 PM5/12/13
to
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
news:MPG.2bf986ba4...@news.eternal-september.org...
> They myth of the Toyota has been blown up in recent years.
What "myth"?
---------------------------------------------
What "myth"?
The only serious issue and controversy surrounding Toyota in recent
years was a problem they had with certain pickups, mostly sold and
used in the northeast. There was a design flaw that resulted in
premature rotting of a cross member in the frame. Initially Toyota
screwed up by denying there was a problem but ultimately they stepped
up to the plate and replaced the affected frame sections on *all* the
trucks, even if well out of warranty. In some cases, they actually
bought the truck back and gave the owner a new one.
I have a friend who had one of the affected trucks. He liked it a lot
but due to his experiences in getting it fixed, he bought a Ford F-150
instead.
Boating All Out
May 12, 2013, 8:50:59 PM5/12/13
to
In article <EZGdnZh54IfwcxLM...@giganews.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
Toyota had a huge recall recently for "unintended acceleration."
Whatever the merits of it, it was probably the biggest "controversy"
about cars this century.
Additionally, "Toyota settled a class-action engine-sludge suit in 2007
that covered an estimated 2.5-million Toyota and Lexus vehicles made
between 1997 and 2002."
<http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/the-black-death-of-
sludge/index.htm>
I also recall that an often lauded Toyota 6 cyl engine was well known to
mechanics for head gasket failure. That was a straight 6 as I remember,
and predates the more recent Toyota 3.0 V6 head gasket problems.
So yes, there is an element of "myth" surrounding Toyota quality.
Simply googling for Toyota problems will show Toyota is far from
perfect. But they sell a lot of cars.
So it doesn't mean they don't make excellent cars, as their sales prove.
Their biggest advantage is that they are more ethical than most other
car makers, and take better care of their customers when mistakes are
made. Customer loyalty keeps them on top. No myth there.
no...@jose.com says...
Whatever the merits of it, it was probably the biggest "controversy"
about cars this century.
Additionally, "Toyota settled a class-action engine-sludge suit in 2007
that covered an estimated 2.5-million Toyota and Lexus vehicles made
between 1997 and 2002."
<http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/the-black-death-of-
sludge/index.htm>
I also recall that an often lauded Toyota 6 cyl engine was well known to
mechanics for head gasket failure. That was a straight 6 as I remember,
and predates the more recent Toyota 3.0 V6 head gasket problems.
So yes, there is an element of "myth" surrounding Toyota quality.
Simply googling for Toyota problems will show Toyota is far from
perfect. But they sell a lot of cars.
So it doesn't mean they don't make excellent cars, as their sales prove.
Their biggest advantage is that they are more ethical than most other
car makers, and take better care of their customers when mistakes are
made. Customer loyalty keeps them on top. No myth there.
Wayne B
May 12, 2013, 9:58:49 PM5/12/13
to
On Sun, 12 May 2013 19:50:59 -0500, Boating All Out
<boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>Their biggest advantage is that they are more ethical than most other
>car makers, and take better care of their customers when mistakes are
>made. Customer loyalty keeps them on top. No myth there.
====
<boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>Their biggest advantage is that they are more ethical than most other
>car makers, and take better care of their customers when mistakes are
>made. Customer loyalty keeps them on top. No myth there.
Absolutely right abut that. When a flaw is discovered you frequently
end up with a life time warranty on that particular part. I dn't know
of anyone else who does that.
John H
May 13, 2013, 8:20:04 AM5/13/13
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Message has been deleted
iBoaterer
May 13, 2013, 12:38:05 PM5/13/13
to
In article <fv42p8t8q1g52hg8h...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
> For 90 grand, it ought to be pretty nice.
There are many, many $90k cars out there that don't have the technical
advances, reliability, etc. of cars a LOT cheaper. "it showed us that
the silent, electron-powered future could actually work-and quickly, at
that."
The only thing R&T didn't like about it was the door handles!
gfre...@aol.com says...
There are many, many $90k cars out there that don't have the technical
advances, reliability, etc. of cars a LOT cheaper. "it showed us that
the silent, electron-powered future could actually work-and quickly, at
that."
The only thing R&T didn't like about it was the door handles!
Earl
May 14, 2013, 8:13:56 PM5/14/13
to
care of your cars.
True North
May 14, 2013, 9:11:02 PM5/14/13
to
I religiously follow the maintenance schedule..even having the service dept fill out and sign the book in addition to filing my receipts in my cabinet.
BAR
May 18, 2013, 4:19:12 PM5/18/13
to
In article <MPG.2bfae0f78...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
How about the problem with lack of "refueling stations"?
iBoaterer
May 18, 2013, 4:25:23 PM5/18/13
to
In article <MPG.2c01ac49e...@news.giganews.com>, sc...@you.com
says...
They probably said the same thing to Henry Ford. Look, we get it,
FOXites are afraid of technology.
says...
FOXites are afraid of technology.
Message has been deleted
F.O.A.D.
May 18, 2013, 6:10:29 PM5/18/13
to
On 5/18/13 6:04 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> miles)
> The 450 mile trip from DC to Boston required 2 recharges, starting
> with a full charge.
>
No onboard nuclear fueled steam turbine to generate 'lectricity?
> On Sat, 18 May 2013 16:19:12 -0400, BAR <sc...@you.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <MPG.2bfae0f78...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
>
>>>
>
>> In article <MPG.2bfae0f78...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
>
>>>
>>> The only thing R&T didn't like about it was the door handles!
>>
>> How about the problem with lack of "refueling stations"?
>
> Ant the fact that it takes over an hour to "refuel" (every 150-180
>>
>> How about the problem with lack of "refueling stations"?
>
> miles)
> The 450 mile trip from DC to Boston required 2 recharges, starting
> with a full charge.
>
No onboard nuclear fueled steam turbine to generate 'lectricity?
iBoaterer
May 19, 2013, 11:08:52 AM5/19/13
to
In article <avqcim...@mid.individual.net>, no...@jose.com says...
That's technology and they don't like technology. Rub two sticks
together to start a fire is about as technical as they want to get it
seems.
together to start a fire is about as technical as they want to get it
seems.
BAR
May 20, 2013, 9:57:51 AM5/20/13
to
In article <ahufp8doti6a3599a...@4ax.com>, gfre...@aol.com says...
> >> The only thing R&T didn't like about it was the door handles!
> >
> >How about the problem with lack of "refueling stations"?
>
> >
> >How about the problem with lack of "refueling stations"?
>
> Ant the fact that it takes over an hour to "refuel" (every 150-180
> miles)
> The 450 mile trip from DC to Boston required 2 recharges, starting
> with a full charge.
If my F-150 was tuned up I could coast into boston on fumes from a full tank of gas.
> miles)
> The 450 mile trip from DC to Boston required 2 recharges, starting
> with a full charge.
BAR
May 20, 2013, 10:00:11 AM5/20/13
to
In article <MPG.2c02b50be...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
There is nothing wrong with new technology. The questions arise out of forcing the new
technology on to the people before it is ready. Solar panels only work when the sun is
shining. Wind turbines only work when the wind is blosing. Coal, natural gas, oil and nuclear
work 24 hours a day.
A battery is an energy storage device.
technology on to the people before it is ready. Solar panels only work when the sun is
shining. Wind turbines only work when the wind is blosing. Coal, natural gas, oil and nuclear
work 24 hours a day.
A battery is an energy storage device.
BAR
May 20, 2013, 12:04:56 PM5/20/13
to
In article <MPG.2c01adc13...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
The issues is speed and efficiency. I can pull into a gasoline station and fill up my tank in
a matter of minutes and be on my way. If I have to pull into a electric charging station I am
going to be sitting around for a long time waiting for my electrons to be transferred into my
battery. Therein lies the problem, speed and effiency of refueling. This problem existed 115
years ago and it still exists now.
Also the whole issue of where does the electricy to refuel these electric cars come from
hasn't been addressed. When everyone pulls into their garage each night and plugs their cars
into the in-house there will be a surge in demand. Does the current electrical grid have the
ability to service this demand? With everyone turning on their electric applicances the
demand for electricty will be even greater. Also, do you really want a charging station in
your garage attached to your house? I don't the charging stations have a habit of bursting
into flames igniting the house on fire. If you are not burning gasoline and diesel in cars
and trucks then it will need to be burned at the power generating station. Remember when the
wind stops and the sun goes down wind and solar are useless.
I will keep my gasoline powered vehicles for quite some time due to the fact that I can
continue to live my life without scheduling things around auto charging schedules. If I need
gasoline I can get the next time I am driving and it will take less than 10 minutes and I am
good for another week or two.
a matter of minutes and be on my way. If I have to pull into a electric charging station I am
going to be sitting around for a long time waiting for my electrons to be transferred into my
battery. Therein lies the problem, speed and effiency of refueling. This problem existed 115
years ago and it still exists now.
Also the whole issue of where does the electricy to refuel these electric cars come from
hasn't been addressed. When everyone pulls into their garage each night and plugs their cars
into the in-house there will be a surge in demand. Does the current electrical grid have the
ability to service this demand? With everyone turning on their electric applicances the
demand for electricty will be even greater. Also, do you really want a charging station in
your garage attached to your house? I don't the charging stations have a habit of bursting
into flames igniting the house on fire. If you are not burning gasoline and diesel in cars
and trucks then it will need to be burned at the power generating station. Remember when the
wind stops and the sun goes down wind and solar are useless.
I will keep my gasoline powered vehicles for quite some time due to the fact that I can
continue to live my life without scheduling things around auto charging schedules. If I need
gasoline I can get the next time I am driving and it will take less than 10 minutes and I am
good for another week or two.
Message has been deleted
iBoaterer
May 20, 2013, 2:04:40 PM5/20/13
to
BAR
May 20, 2013, 3:11:01 PM5/20/13
to
In article <t0mkp89tcsmpu1voc...@4ax.com>, gfre...@aol.com says...
> Right now the nights are when power is cheap because that is a low
> demand time but a significant number of cars hitting the grid could
> easily flip that.
> You also have the road tax issue. They will need to replace that
> money.
>
> As long as these are fairly rare, it is a good thing for the rich
> people who can afford to buy one of these toys but that would change
> quickly if it became a more commonly owned vehicle.
The only solution is to use the EZ-Pass system to record every vehicle passing an
intersection and charge them a road tax based upon their milage and the weight of the
vehicle. This will require that the current gasoline and diesel fuel taxes will have to be
repealed.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:04:56 -0400, BAR <sc...@you.com> wrote:
>
> >Also the whole issue of where does the electricy to refuel these electric cars come from
> >hasn't been addressed. When everyone pulls into their garage each night and plugs their cars
> >into the in-house there will be a surge in demand. Does the current electrical grid have the
> >ability to service this demand? With everyone turning on their electric applicances the
> >demand for electricty will be even greater. Also, do you really want a charging station in
> >your garage attached to your house? I don't the charging stations have a habit of bursting
> >into flames igniting the house on fire. If you are not burning gasoline and diesel in cars
> >and trucks then it will need to be burned at the power generating station. Remember when the
> >wind stops and the sun goes down wind and solar are useless.
>
> These are problems electric car fans seem to ignore.
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:04:56 -0400, BAR <sc...@you.com> wrote:
>
> >Also the whole issue of where does the electricy to refuel these electric cars come from
> >hasn't been addressed. When everyone pulls into their garage each night and plugs their cars
> >into the in-house there will be a surge in demand. Does the current electrical grid have the
> >ability to service this demand? With everyone turning on their electric applicances the
> >demand for electricty will be even greater. Also, do you really want a charging station in
> >your garage attached to your house? I don't the charging stations have a habit of bursting
> >into flames igniting the house on fire. If you are not burning gasoline and diesel in cars
> >and trucks then it will need to be burned at the power generating station. Remember when the
> >wind stops and the sun goes down wind and solar are useless.
>
> Right now the nights are when power is cheap because that is a low
> demand time but a significant number of cars hitting the grid could
> easily flip that.
> You also have the road tax issue. They will need to replace that
> money.
>
> As long as these are fairly rare, it is a good thing for the rich
> people who can afford to buy one of these toys but that would change
> quickly if it became a more commonly owned vehicle.
The only solution is to use the EZ-Pass system to record every vehicle passing an
intersection and charge them a road tax based upon their milage and the weight of the
vehicle. This will require that the current gasoline and diesel fuel taxes will have to be
repealed.
JustWaitAFrekinMinute
May 20, 2013, 3:38:19 PM5/20/13
to
already testing systems like that, I "cited" that for loogie over a year
ago... It was iirc, in Oregon... Testing a system which would tax
motorists based on a GPS in the cars black box... Swore your info
wouldn't get out btw.. LOL!
F.O.A.D.
May 20, 2013, 3:49:46 PM5/20/13
to
JustWaitAFrekinMinute
May 20, 2013, 5:11:31 PM5/20/13
to
F.O.A.D.
May 20, 2013, 5:31:36 PM5/20/13
to
is the champion and therefore your sponsors should be paying your way,
right?
Eisboch
May 20, 2013, 6:13:53 PM5/20/13
to
"BAR" wrote in message
news:MPG.2c03f67a4...@news.giganews.com...
Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
the battery. Hocus Pocus.
JustWaitAFrekinMinute
May 20, 2013, 6:19:12 PM5/20/13
to
F.O.A.D.
May 20, 2013, 7:36:06 PM5/20/13
to
JustWaitAFrekinMinute
May 20, 2013, 7:39:55 PM5/20/13
to
F.O.A.D.
May 20, 2013, 7:46:30 PM5/20/13
to
True North
May 20, 2013, 10:23:03 PM5/20/13
to
Natural born liar at work again?
iBoaterer
May 21, 2013, 8:56:41 AM5/21/13
to
In article <q7OdnXr6nJOlCwfM...@earthlink.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
Uh, Harry, I did a little checking through some friends that are in the
sport, they did some checking, it's pure horseshit!!!!
no...@jose.com says...
sport, they did some checking, it's pure horseshit!!!!
iBoaterer
May 21, 2013, 8:57:31 AM5/21/13
to
In article <knec0v$ls7$1...@dont-email.me>, justwaitaf...@gmail.com
says...
Are you saying that you didn't say she was a champion? You DID, and
furthermore upon doing some checking, it's a lie.
says...
furthermore upon doing some checking, it's a lie.
iBoaterer
May 21, 2013, 9:00:43 AM5/21/13
to
In article <otSdnRk1eL24PQfM...@giganews.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?
no...@jose.com says...
to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
foolish as to depend on that?
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 9:51:56 AM5/21/13
to
In article <MPG.2c053a02b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
iB...@grmail.com says...
>
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.
iB...@grmail.com says...
>
> In article <otSdnRk1eL24PQfM...@giganews.com>,
> no...@jose.com says...
> >
> > "BAR" wrote in message
> > news:MPG.2c03f67a4...@news.giganews.com...
> >
> >
> no...@jose.com says...
> >
> > "BAR" wrote in message
> > news:MPG.2c03f67a4...@news.giganews.com...
> >
> >
> > A battery is an energy storage device.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
> > the battery. Hocus Pocus.
>
> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> foolish as to depend on that?
The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
> > the battery. Hocus Pocus.
>
> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> foolish as to depend on that?
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
iBoaterer
May 21, 2013, 12:53:13 PM5/21/13
to
In article <kr0np853oql0ce6lh...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
> a coal powered car. How environmentally friendly is that?
There's also natural gas, and nuclear, but when converted to clean coal
technology (there's that awful word again) it's quite environmentally
friendly, especially when they do away with strip mining to get to it
and make them tunnel.
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:00:43 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <otSdnRk1eL24PQfM...@giganews.com>,
> >no...@jose.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:00:43 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <otSdnRk1eL24PQfM...@giganews.com>,
> >no...@jose.com says...
>
> >> Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
> >> the battery. Hocus Pocus.
> >
> >Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >foolish as to depend on that?
>
> In the case of an electric car in the north east and central US, it is
> >> the battery. Hocus Pocus.
> >
> >Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >foolish as to depend on that?
>
> a coal powered car. How environmentally friendly is that?
There's also natural gas, and nuclear, but when converted to clean coal
technology (there's that awful word again) it's quite environmentally
friendly, especially when they do away with strip mining to get to it
and make them tunnel.
iBoaterer
May 21, 2013, 12:54:04 PM5/21/13
to
In article <g51np8tvlt5o99qd3...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
> gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
> There are also transmission line losses. That averages 6-7% but in the
> north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
> losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
> years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
> are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.
>
> It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
> power line in their back yard.
Gee, why all of a sudden it's an environmental issue and an
environmental issue only?
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
> <boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>
> >> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >> foolish as to depend on that?
> >
> >The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
> >power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
> >Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
>
> If the power plant is an old technology coal plant, the modern
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
> <boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>
> >> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >> foolish as to depend on that?
> >
> >The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
> >power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
> >Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
>
> gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
> There are also transmission line losses. That averages 6-7% but in the
> north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
> losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
> years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
> are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.
>
> It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
> power line in their back yard.
Gee, why all of a sudden it's an environmental issue and an
environmental issue only?
John H
May 21, 2013, 1:43:11 PM5/21/13
to
On Mon, 13 May 2013 12:25:59 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>On Mon, 13 May 2013 05:20:04 -0700 (PDT), John H
><salmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:41:24 AM UTC-4, BAR wrote:
>>> In article <MPG.2bf5d10c3...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > http://tinyurl.com/cwydck5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More proof that Consumer Reports is a useless rag.
>>
>>Bert, check out the last few issues of Road and Track. They love the Tesla.
>
>For 90 grand, it ought to be pretty nice.
>
True!
>On Mon, 13 May 2013 05:20:04 -0700 (PDT), John H
><salmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:41:24 AM UTC-4, BAR wrote:
>>> In article <MPG.2bf5d10c3...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > http://tinyurl.com/cwydck5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More proof that Consumer Reports is a useless rag.
>>
>>Bert, check out the last few issues of Road and Track. They love the Tesla.
>
>For 90 grand, it ought to be pretty nice.
>
John H.
--
Hope you're having a great day!
Eisboch
May 21, 2013, 2:18:24 PM5/21/13
to
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
news:MPG.2c053a02b...@news.eternal-september.org...
I know I am going to regret this but nobody, including me, said
batteries don't work. All that was stated is that it took some source
of energy to charge them in the first place, ergo they are a storage
device, not a "generator" of electrical power.
Eisboch
May 21, 2013, 2:22:57 PM5/21/13
to
"Boating All Out" wrote in message
news:MPG.2c0537f3...@news.eternal-september.org...
OMG. You too?
iBoaterer
May 21, 2013, 3:10:53 PM5/21/13
to
In article <kOidndEhwYvoJwbM...@giganews.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
I'm lost, just who said that they WERE a generator?
no...@jose.com says...
Eisboch
May 21, 2013, 3:23:17 PM5/21/13
to
"iBoaterer" wrote in message
news:MPG.2c0590ca2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> I know I am going to regret this but nobody, including me, said
> batteries don't work. All that was stated is that it took some
> source
> of energy to charge them in the first place, ergo they are a storage
> device, not a "generator" of electrical power.
--------------------------------------
> batteries don't work. All that was stated is that it took some
> source
> of energy to charge them in the first place, ergo they are a storage
> device, not a "generator" of electrical power.
I'm lost, just who said that they WERE a generator?
I knew it. Waste of time and bandwidth.
F.O.A.D.
May 21, 2013, 3:29:37 PM5/21/13
to
Eisboch
May 21, 2013, 5:06:55 PM5/21/13
to
"Boating All Out" wrote in message
news:MPG.2c0537f3...@news.eternal-september.org...
In article <MPG.2c053a02b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
iB...@grmail.com says...
>
> >
> > "BAR" wrote in message
> > news:MPG.2c03f67a4...@news.giganews.com...
> >
> >
> > A battery is an energy storage device.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge
> > in
> > the battery. Hocus Pocus.
>
> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't
> going
> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> foolish as to depend on that?
The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of
electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.
---------------------------------------------
> > news:MPG.2c03f67a4...@news.giganews.com...
> >
> >
> > A battery is an energy storage device.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge
> > in
> > the battery. Hocus Pocus.
>
> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't
> going
> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> foolish as to depend on that?
The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of
electric
power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
Expect that from BAR, but somewhat surprised that Richard wasn't more
thoughtful before saying what he did.
Kool-Aid has strange effects.
I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.
All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro,
wind, solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I
agree that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or
diesel powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into
something that produces useful work. No debate from me there.
My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered
autos is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a
decent living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.
My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that
show promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major
shift to natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel
cell technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the
archives of history.
The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up
to the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.
Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
takes 4-8 hours.
Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting
to work but the average family is going to need something more
substantial for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big
bucks for a battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the
standard, family sedan?
Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better
but it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for
it's type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge.
Nice car and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still
limited range, it isn't going to do it for most.
One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about
this with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and
the potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I
haven't heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at
below freezing temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't
heard boo.
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 5:14:51 PM5/21/13
to
In article <t0mkp89tcsmpu1voc...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:04:56 -0400, BAR <sc...@you.com> wrote:
>
> >Also the whole issue of where does the electricy to refuel these electric cars come from
> >hasn't been addressed. When everyone pulls into their garage each night and plugs their cars
> >into the in-house there will be a surge in demand. Does the current electrical grid have the
> >ability to service this demand? With everyone turning on their electric applicances the
> >demand for electricty will be even greater. Also, do you really want a charging station in
> >your garage attached to your house? I don't the charging stations have a habit of bursting
> >into flames igniting the house on fire. If you are not burning gasoline and diesel in cars
> >and trucks then it will need to be burned at the power generating station. Remember when the
> >wind stops and the sun goes down wind and solar are useless.
>
> These are problems electric car fans seem to ignore.
You really think buyers of electric cars haven't done their homework.
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 12:04:56 -0400, BAR <sc...@you.com> wrote:
>
> >Also the whole issue of where does the electricy to refuel these electric cars come from
> >hasn't been addressed. When everyone pulls into their garage each night and plugs their cars
> >into the in-house there will be a surge in demand. Does the current electrical grid have the
> >ability to service this demand? With everyone turning on their electric applicances the
> >demand for electricty will be even greater. Also, do you really want a charging station in
> >your garage attached to your house? I don't the charging stations have a habit of bursting
> >into flames igniting the house on fire. If you are not burning gasoline and diesel in cars
> >and trucks then it will need to be burned at the power generating station. Remember when the
> >wind stops and the sun goes down wind and solar are useless.
>
> These are problems electric car fans seem to ignore.
Does that mean people with some wealth are stupid?
> Right now the nights are when power is cheap because that is a low
> demand time but a significant number of cars hitting the grid could
> easily flip that.
> You also have the road tax issue. They will need to replace that
> money.
>
> As long as these are fairly rare, it is a good thing for the rich
> people who can afford to buy one of these toys but that would change
> quickly if it became a more commonly owned vehicle.
appropriate adjustments, not quickly.
The old folks have to die off first.
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 5:15:02 PM5/21/13
to
In article <n5udnVHpmae_VgbM...@earthlink.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
Good move with the ass-kissing. Richard is the only sane poster here
who will give you the time of day.
no...@jose.com says...
who will give you the time of day.
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 5:15:22 PM5/21/13
to
In article <g51np8tvlt5o99qd3...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
> <boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
> <boa...@boating.com> wrote:
>
> >> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >> foolish as to depend on that?
> >
> >The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
> >power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
> >Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
>
> >> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >> foolish as to depend on that?
> >
> >The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
> >power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
> >Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
>
> If the power plant is an old technology coal plant, the modern
> gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
No. It's not.
> gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-are-electric-
cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0>
Even where dirty coal is generating the electricity, it takes a 40-50
mpg ICE car to beat an electric car in carbon emissions.
Who's driving a 40-50 mpg (combined) in coal country? They aren't
common, and probably never will be.
There are other power plant emissions beside greenhouse, and they aren't
addressed in the article. So you have to define "dirty" before making
such generalizations. Modern ICE cars with cats are really good at not
emitting poisons. But coal use is decreasing, probably less than 40%
total now, and will have to become "clean" to survive the EPA.
> There are also transmission line losses. That averages 6-7% but in the
> north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
> losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
> years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
> are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.
>
> It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
> power line in their back yard.
my grand pappy never saw an interstate highway.
Of course maybe there'll be a zombie apocalypse. Never know.
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 5:16:23 PM5/21/13
to
In article <r6udnXHDRYgbJgbM...@giganews.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
Me too - what? You supported somebody (BAR) saying "The questions arise
with? If that's the case, then good for you. There's probably somebody
out there who still thinks a battery generates electricity and never
dies, so that makes you smarter than him. And if you think a battery is
"hocus pocus," good for you on that too. Probably makes you sympatico
with some as yet unfound New Guinea aboriginals who would think a
battery is a magical device.
If you were really just stating the obvious about a battery, my
apologies. I took it as an often used poor argument against battery
power by right-wingers. Namely, that power generation is just
transferred elsewhere. That's true, but doesn't mean that batteries
aren't more efficient in fossil fuel consumption than an ICE.
no...@jose.com says...
out of forcing the new technology on to the people before it is ready."
Everybody knows a battery stores energy. Is that what you were agreeing
with? If that's the case, then good for you. There's probably somebody
out there who still thinks a battery generates electricity and never
dies, so that makes you smarter than him. And if you think a battery is
"hocus pocus," good for you on that too. Probably makes you sympatico
with some as yet unfound New Guinea aboriginals who would think a
battery is a magical device.
If you were really just stating the obvious about a battery, my
apologies. I took it as an often used poor argument against battery
power by right-wingers. Namely, that power generation is just
transferred elsewhere. That's true, but doesn't mean that batteries
aren't more efficient in fossil fuel consumption than an ICE.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
F.O.A.D.
May 21, 2013, 5:30:36 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/13 5:25 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> If electric cars are not an environmental issue, why bother with them?
> If the idea of electric cars was attractive enough the market would
> provide them to us without all of the government giveaways (AKA rich
> people welfare)
>
> I really tried to get on board but I still can't get the money to work
> out even building a kit car, starting with a car I own. I am not rich
> enough to just have an electric car as a toy.
>
>
> What do you drive?
>
> If it makes you feel better. Solar PV is starting to look attractive
> to me but, as usual, the government is the biggest stumbling block.
>
I'd buy an all-electric car the size of a Toyota Corolla if it sold for
about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't long
term issues with the batteries.
> If the idea of electric cars was attractive enough the market would
> provide them to us without all of the government giveaways (AKA rich
> people welfare)
>
> I really tried to get on board but I still can't get the money to work
> out even building a kit car, starting with a car I own. I am not rich
> enough to just have an electric car as a toy.
>
>
> What do you drive?
>
> If it makes you feel better. Solar PV is starting to look attractive
> to me but, as usual, the government is the biggest stumbling block.
>
I'd buy an all-electric car the size of a Toyota Corolla if it sold for
about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't long
term issues with the batteries.
Message has been deleted
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 5:47:42 PM5/21/13
to
In article <pbonp89senj0mt2ub...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 12:53:13 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> as the plants age and get decommissioned
Right now. The units should be on-line in 3-4 years.
<http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/energy/stories/us-approves-first-new-
nuclear-power-plant-in-a-generation>
"ROCKVILLE, Md. - U.S. regulators on Thursday approved plans to build
the first new nuclear power plant in more than 30 years in spite of
objections of the panel's chairman who cited safety concerns stemming
from Japan's disastrous 2011 Fukushima disaster.
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission voted 4-1 to allow Atlanta-based
Southern Co. to build and operate two new nuclear power reactors at its
existing Vogtle nuclear power plant in Georgia. The units will cost
Southern and partners about $14 billion and enter service as soon as
2016 and 2017.
....
The Obama administration has offered Southern and its partners $8.3
billion in federal loan guarantees as an incentive."
A feather in President Obama's cap. But don't let anybody know.
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 12:53:13 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <kr0np853oql0ce6lh...@4ax.com>,
> >gfre...@aol.com says...
> >>
> >> On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:00:43 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <otSdnRk1eL24PQfM...@giganews.com>,
> >> >no...@jose.com says...
> >>
> >> >> Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
> >> >> the battery. Hocus Pocus.
> >> >
> >> >Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >> >to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >> >foolish as to depend on that?
> >>
> >> In the case of an electric car in the north east and central US, it is
> >> a coal powered car. How environmentally friendly is that?
> >
> >There's also natural gas, and nuclear, but when converted to clean coal
> >technology (there's that awful word again) it's quite environmentally
> >friendly, especially when they do away with strip mining to get to it
> >and make them tunnel.
>
>
> When was the last nuclear plant built, that technology is going away
>
> >In article <kr0np853oql0ce6lh...@4ax.com>,
> >gfre...@aol.com says...
> >>
> >> On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:00:43 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <otSdnRk1eL24PQfM...@giganews.com>,
> >> >no...@jose.com says...
> >>
> >> >> Exactly. It took some other form of energy to create the charge in
> >> >> the battery. Hocus Pocus.
> >> >
> >> >Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> >> >to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> >> >foolish as to depend on that?
> >>
> >> In the case of an electric car in the north east and central US, it is
> >> a coal powered car. How environmentally friendly is that?
> >
> >There's also natural gas, and nuclear, but when converted to clean coal
> >technology (there's that awful word again) it's quite environmentally
> >friendly, especially when they do away with strip mining to get to it
> >and make them tunnel.
>
>
> as the plants age and get decommissioned
Right now. The units should be on-line in 3-4 years.
<http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/energy/stories/us-approves-first-new-
nuclear-power-plant-in-a-generation>
"ROCKVILLE, Md. - U.S. regulators on Thursday approved plans to build
the first new nuclear power plant in more than 30 years in spite of
objections of the panel's chairman who cited safety concerns stemming
from Japan's disastrous 2011 Fukushima disaster.
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission voted 4-1 to allow Atlanta-based
Southern Co. to build and operate two new nuclear power reactors at its
existing Vogtle nuclear power plant in Georgia. The units will cost
Southern and partners about $14 billion and enter service as soon as
2016 and 2017.
....
The Obama administration has offered Southern and its partners $8.3
billion in federal loan guarantees as an incentive."
A feather in President Obama's cap. But don't let anybody know.
Boating All Out
May 21, 2013, 6:51:10 PM5/21/13
to
In article <Sdidne-W5IBufAbM...@giganews.com>,
no...@jose.com says...
> All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
> powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
> It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro,
> wind, solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I
> agree that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or
> diesel powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into
> something that produces useful work. No debate from me there.
>
> My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered
> autos is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a
> decent living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.
>
> My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
> battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
> limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
> better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
> coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that
> show promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major
> shift to natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel
> cell technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the
> archives of history.
>
Not at all, unless CNG or fuel cells ever become cheaper than
electricity. CNG has even more infrastructure problems than
electricity, and fuel cells are pure "Popular Mechanics" last I heard.
Where are the CNG and fuel cell cars? How are they doing in the
marketplace? Electrics and plug-in hybrids are already here.
Besides, a common tendency is to think that "electric" means "only
electric." A plug-in hybrid can be used "only electric," or "not much
electric" if the ICE generator is used often.
I don't know why people can't accept the fact that a plug-in that gets
most people their daily driving miles on relatively cheap electricity is
a "good thing." Especially when it also has an on-board ICE to remove
any range anxiety.
If anything, CNG or fuel cells will be used to run the ICE generator.
> The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
> often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up
> to the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
> without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
> affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.
>
The Volt has already denied what you said, and Honda, Ford and others
are playing catch up as fast as they can.
Any plug-in hybrid can be driven all-electric by enough people for them
to make it in the marketplace on that basis alone - if the buy price is
right.
The average person drives an average 40 miles a day.
There are plenty of Volt drivers who can count on the fingers of one
hand their gas station visits in a year of driving.
It's only pure electrics that suffer range anxiety, and that won't
change unless a standardized battery swapping infrastructure is built.
Big task.
But plug-in hybrids work for just about everybody. As costs come down,
that's an easily seen future. It's only the price holding it back.
But that held cell phones and PC's back too.
> Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
> today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
> takes 4-8 hours.
> Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
> probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting
> to work but the average family is going to need something more
> substantial for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big
> bucks for a battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the
> standard, family sedan?
>
Prices are already coming down for plug-in hybrids. The next gen Volt
is supposed to be $10k less.
How many people?
That's purely a decision that the marketplace will decide. It's beyond
the control of those who have a love affair with the ICE.
> Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better
> but it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for
> it's type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge.
> Nice car and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still
> limited range, it isn't going to do it for most.
>
> One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
> their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
> importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
> below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about
> this with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and
> the potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I
> haven't heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at
> below freezing temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't
> heard boo.
Of course it has. Information on heating/cooling of the batteries is
widely available on the internet. Volts are sold in all climates, and
no manufacturer will rely solely on climate to determine the market.
no...@jose.com says...
>
>
> I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
> anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.
>
He's never wrong about anything, I'll give him that.
>
> I obviously speak an unknown foreign language when trying to discuss
> anything with Iboaterer, so I'll try to do better with you.
>
> All I was pointing out was that the energy contained in a battery
> powered automobile was created somewhere outside of that battery.
> It may have come from fossil fuels, including natural gas, hydro,
> wind, solar nuclear or whatever. I think everyone realizes that. I
> agree that the electric motor is far more efficient than a gasoline or
> diesel powered engine in terms of converting stored energy into
> something that produces useful work. No debate from me there.
>
> My reasoning for being less than optimistic about battery powered
> autos is not because I don't embrace new technology. Hell, I made a
> decent living for almost 30 years living and breathing new technology.
>
> My reasoning is more related to the public's likely acceptance of
> battery power anytime in the near future due to it's current
> limitations. If it isn't accepted (or mandated) the development of
> better batteries and battery powered autos will suffer and be slow in
> coming. Some companies have already gone belly up and the few that
> show promise have been living off of federal subsidies. A major
> shift to natural gas powered cars or maybe even a breakthrough in fuel
> cell technology will put these strictly battery powered cars in the
> archives of history.
>
electricity. CNG has even more infrastructure problems than
electricity, and fuel cells are pure "Popular Mechanics" last I heard.
Where are the CNG and fuel cell cars? How are they doing in the
marketplace? Electrics and plug-in hybrids are already here.
Besides, a common tendency is to think that "electric" means "only
electric." A plug-in hybrid can be used "only electric," or "not much
electric" if the ICE generator is used often.
I don't know why people can't accept the fact that a plug-in that gets
most people their daily driving miles on relatively cheap electricity is
a "good thing." Especially when it also has an on-board ICE to remove
any range anxiety.
If anything, CNG or fuel cells will be used to run the ICE generator.
> The American culture includes freedom of movement. People travel and
> often drive long distances. Battery powered vehicles just aren't up
> to the task of seamlessly replacing conventional fossil fuel engines
> without a major change in our driving habits, desires and overall love
> affair with travel by car. Don't see that changing in the near term.
>
are playing catch up as fast as they can.
Any plug-in hybrid can be driven all-electric by enough people for them
to make it in the marketplace on that basis alone - if the buy price is
right.
The average person drives an average 40 miles a day.
There are plenty of Volt drivers who can count on the fingers of one
hand their gas station visits in a year of driving.
It's only pure electrics that suffer range anxiety, and that won't
change unless a standardized battery swapping infrastructure is built.
Big task.
But plug-in hybrids work for just about everybody. As costs come down,
that's an easily seen future. It's only the price holding it back.
But that held cell phones and PC's back too.
> Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
> today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
> takes 4-8 hours.
> Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip. They are
> probably ideal for local, run to the store use, or short commuting
> to work but the average family is going to need something more
> substantial for longer trips. How many people are going to spend big
> bucks for a battery powered, local commuter car in addition to the
> standard, family sedan?
>
is supposed to be $10k less.
How many people?
That's purely a decision that the marketplace will decide. It's beyond
the control of those who have a love affair with the ICE.
> Some, like the Tesla Model S, claims a 265 mile range. Much better
> but it requires a special type of charger designed specifically for
> it's type of batteries and still takes an hour or so to recharge.
> Nice car and all but at $80K for a "look at me, I'm Green" with still
> limited range, it isn't going to do it for most.
>
> One thing about lithium-ion batteries that has been known for years is
> their poor performance at temperatures below freezing and more
> importantly it's inability to be safely charged at temperatures at or
> below freezing. There are many sources containing warnings about
> this with regard to leaving your cell phone charging in your car and
> the potential damage it can produce in the colder climates but I
> haven't heard a thing about charging lithium ion car batteries at
> below freezing temperatures. Has that problem been fixed? I haven't
> heard boo.
widely available on the internet. Volts are sold in all climates, and
no manufacturer will rely solely on climate to determine the market.
Hank©
May 21, 2013, 7:23:21 PM5/21/13
to
It's supposed to be good for 2000 charge cycles. I'll let you know If I
have trouble charging it in freezing weather.
JustWaitAFrekinMinute
May 21, 2013, 7:29:19 PM5/21/13
to
Earl
May 21, 2013, 7:48:52 PM5/21/13
to
True North wrote:
> Natural born liar at work again?
Harry never leaves his computer. Are you new?
> Natural born liar at work again?
Harry never leaves his computer. Are you new?
Hank©
May 21, 2013, 7:51:31 PM5/21/13
to
Wayne B
May 21, 2013, 9:05:21 PM5/21/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 17:25:52 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>If it makes you feel better. Solar PV is starting to look attractive
>to me but, as usual, the government is the biggest stumbling block.
===
>If it makes you feel better. Solar PV is starting to look attractive
>to me but, as usual, the government is the biggest stumbling block.
Have you started working the permitting issues/process for solar cells
on the roof? I'm going to start talking with people about it when I
get home. I'll put some on the boat regardless - should be able to
get almost 1,000 watts on top of the flybridge enclosure. That would
save a lot of generator time when anchored out.
Wayne B
May 21, 2013, 9:13:37 PM5/21/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 17:06:55 -0400, "Eisboch" <no...@jose.com> wrote:
>Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
>today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
>takes 4-8 hours.
>Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip.
=========
>Most of the tiny, roller-skate-on-wheels electric cars being marketed
>today are good for about 80 miles before recharge. A full recharge
>takes 4-8 hours.
>Not very comfortable and unrealistic for a 400 mile trip.
I would guesstimate that about 95% of my driving could be done with a
reliable range of 120 miles. Without some breakthrough it may never
be realistic to take an EV on long trips. Most people have a second
vehicle of some sort however.
Message has been deleted
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Eisboch
May 22, 2013, 2:18:50 AM5/22/13
to
"HankŠ" wrote in message
news:519c01f0$0$1308$c3e8da3$fdf4...@news.astraweb.com...
I just bought an electric bike. The 9AH Lion Battery for it was $400.
It's supposed to be good for 2000 charge cycles. I'll let you know If
I
have trouble charging it in freezing weather.
Wise ass.
Wayne B
May 22, 2013, 6:16:47 AM5/22/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 23:03:51 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>My wife's favorite roofer is working across the street and I plan on
>talking to him about the roof penetrations. I will get them to do the
>actual mounting if it comes down to it (at least install the sleepers)
===
Keep us posted on that work. I'm no roofer but it seems to me that
pressure treated 2x4s installed directly over the roof stringers with
long SS screws and lot of sealant should get the job done.
>My wife's favorite roofer is working across the street and I plan on
>talking to him about the roof penetrations. I will get them to do the
>actual mounting if it comes down to it (at least install the sleepers)
===
Keep us posted on that work. I'm no roofer but it seems to me that
pressure treated 2x4s installed directly over the roof stringers with
long SS screws and lot of sealant should get the job done.
iBoaterer
May 22, 2013, 9:01:55 AM5/22/13
to
produce energy they store it, although, I haven't seen where anybody
said anything to the contrary. Add to that the fact that a gas tank,
diesel tank, CNG tank, steam boiler ALL do the same thing as a battery,
store potential energy, makes it even more ludicrous that you brand
someone else a "fool".
iBoaterer
May 22, 2013, 9:06:16 AM5/22/13
to
In article <MPG.2c059fe6a...@news.eternal-september.org>,
boa...@boating.com says...
What is amazingly hilarious is that these same types of arguments arose
when the internal combustion engine was in it's infancy! I'd bet that
the same holds true for steam, and probably when caveman made fire, they
thought that that damned new technology would burn up all of the wood
they use to built shelter....
boa...@boating.com says...
when the internal combustion engine was in it's infancy! I'd bet that
the same holds true for steam, and probably when caveman made fire, they
thought that that damned new technology would burn up all of the wood
they use to built shelter....
iBoaterer
May 22, 2013, 9:07:47 AM5/22/13
to
John H
May 22, 2013, 10:00:22 AM5/22/13
to
John H.
--
Hope you're having a great day!
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
iBoaterer
May 22, 2013, 1:11:20 PM5/22/13
to
In article <vispp81q1dgk64ob0...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
> In fact that was the reason England started using coal. They were
> burning the trees so fast that they forests were in danger and the
> navy was worried about how they would build ships
Well, there you go, damned technology! So, you don't use fire then, I
assume?
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 09:06:16 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >when caveman made fire, they
> >thought that that damned new technology would burn up all of the wood
> >they use to built shelter....
>
> It did. Have you see Haiti?
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 09:06:16 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >when caveman made fire, they
> >thought that that damned new technology would burn up all of the wood
> >they use to built shelter....
>
> In fact that was the reason England started using coal. They were
> burning the trees so fast that they forests were in danger and the
> navy was worried about how they would build ships
Well, there you go, damned technology! So, you don't use fire then, I
assume?
iBoaterer
May 22, 2013, 1:12:11 PM5/22/13
to
In article <mpspp81j2ghnu5qen...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
They are coming down in price as we speak.
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 09:07:47 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> I'd buy an all-electric car the size of a Toyota Corolla if it sold for
> >> about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't long
> >> term issues with the batteries.
> >
> >That's easy enough!
>
> If it is so easy, why isn't someone doing it.
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 09:07:47 -0400, iBoaterer <iB...@grmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> I'd buy an all-electric car the size of a Toyota Corolla if it sold for
> >> about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't long
> >> term issues with the batteries.
> >
> >That's easy enough!
>
They are coming down in price as we speak.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
iBoaterer
May 22, 2013, 3:16:40 PM5/22/13
to
In article <245qp8lln0e80j7bm...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
> I don't burn a lot of wood.
Fire is fire. And like I said, people said the exact same thing about
gasoline when the first internal combustion engines were used in cars
that you are saying about electric cars. We'll completely run out of
fuel for heat, etc.
gfre...@aol.com says...
Fire is fire. And like I said, people said the exact same thing about
gasoline when the first internal combustion engines were used in cars
that you are saying about electric cars. We'll completely run out of
fuel for heat, etc.
Eisboch
May 22, 2013, 5:09:03 PM5/22/13
to
wrote in message news:mpspp81j2ghnu5qen...@4ax.com...
>> I'd buy an all-electric car the size of a Toyota Corolla if it sold
>> for
>> about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't
>> long
>> term issues with the batteries.
>
>That's easy enough!
>> for
>> about $20,000, had a 300-mile range at 55-60 mph, and there weren't
>> long
>> term issues with the batteries.
>
>That's easy enough!
If it is so easy, why isn't someone doing it.
----------------------------------------
They can't get the price of the 18' trailer carrying the extra
batteries down.
BAR
May 22, 2013, 6:28:04 PM5/22/13
to
In article <MPG.2c06c672b...@news.eternal-september.org>, iB...@grmail.com says...
Why don't you take one for the team and help bring down the price by purchasing one of these
over priced 30 mile per charge electric vehicles. Don't wait for other people to do it, be a
leader yourself.
over priced 30 mile per charge electric vehicles. Don't wait for other people to do it, be a
leader yourself.
BAR
May 22, 2013, 6:33:14 PM5/22/13
to
> In article <g51np8tvlt5o99qd3...@4ax.com>,
> gfre...@aol.com says...
http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/does-hybrid-car-production-
waste-offset-hybrid-benefits1.htm
Your electric care is raping the environment.
> gfre...@aol.com says...
> >
> > On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
> > <boa...@boating.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> > >> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> > >> foolish as to depend on that?
> > >
> > On Tue, 21 May 2013 08:51:56 -0500, Boating All Out
> > <boa...@boating.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Yeah, don't those fools who use flashlights know that they aren't going
> > >> to work? And that car battery that starts the car, who would be so
> > >> foolish as to depend on that?
> > >
> > >The ignorance is kind of funny. No concept of the advantage of electric
> > >power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
> > >Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
> >
> > If the power plant is an old technology coal plant, the modern
> > gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
>
> > >power plant efficiency vs internal combustion engine efficiency.
> > >Basically just knees jerking all over the place.
> >
> > If the power plant is an old technology coal plant, the modern
> > gasoline engine is a lot cleaner.
>
> No. It's not.
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-are-electric-
> cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0>
>
> Even where dirty coal is generating the electricity, it takes a 40-50
> mpg ICE car to beat an electric car in carbon emissions.
> Who's driving a 40-50 mpg (combined) in coal country? They aren't
> common, and probably never will be.
> There are other power plant emissions beside greenhouse, and they aren't
> addressed in the article. So you have to define "dirty" before making
> such generalizations. Modern ICE cars with cats are really good at not
> emitting poisons. But coal use is decreasing, probably less than 40%
> total now, and will have to become "clean" to survive the EPA.
>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-are-electric-
> cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0>
>
> Even where dirty coal is generating the electricity, it takes a 40-50
> mpg ICE car to beat an electric car in carbon emissions.
> Who's driving a 40-50 mpg (combined) in coal country? They aren't
> common, and probably never will be.
> There are other power plant emissions beside greenhouse, and they aren't
> addressed in the article. So you have to define "dirty" before making
> such generalizations. Modern ICE cars with cats are really good at not
> emitting poisons. But coal use is decreasing, probably less than 40%
> total now, and will have to become "clean" to survive the EPA.
>
> > There are also transmission line losses. That averages 6-7% but in the
> > north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
> > losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
> > years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
> > are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.
> >
> > It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
> > power line in their back yard.
>
> > north east where the lines are running over the design capacity, those
> > losses are much higher. IAEI had an article in their magazine a few
> > years ago talking about the problems of line sag because these wires
> > are running so hot.. Heat is lost energy.
> >
> > It is easy to say we will just upgrade the grid but nobody wants a
> > power line in their back yard.
>
> The grid will be updated. But you won't be around to see it. Just like
> my grand pappy never saw an interstate highway.
> Of course maybe there'll be a zombie apocalypse. Never know.
Make sure you read paragraphs 3 and 4 of the article at the URL below.
> my grand pappy never saw an interstate highway.
> Of course maybe there'll be a zombie apocalypse. Never know.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/does-hybrid-car-production-
waste-offset-hybrid-benefits1.htm
Your electric care is raping the environment.
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