Autopsy Report on Cruis'n Rulz!
JR North
Got the heads off; and posted some pics on the metalworking Dropbox
at:
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/
See valve.jpg 3 pics
No damage to the cylinder wall or head, and just a couple minor dings
on the piston crown. Lucky me.
JR
HOME PAGE:
http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
--------------------------------------------------
Bill H
Definitely looks broken! Hope it goes back together without any more
problems.
Loogy...@gmail.com
I was surprised how corroded the combustion chamber was!
jamesgangnc
news:o1qi8419qt8ubut7v...@4ax.com...
That's a lot of rust on that head. Other one look like that?
Loogy...@gmail.com
> "JR North" <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
That's what I thought......certainly makes think about whether this is
common with I/O's. Never owned one, so I don't know. I believe he said
he fogged it, didn't he?
RPS
It does look like someone forgot to fog the engine. ;)
jamesgangnc
news:4eaa31b6-9000-4bbc...@z11g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
Not the ones I see. But then I'm in "trailer boating in lakes" land here in
Raleigh. Might be sitting in a slip in salt water does it. There is going
to be one or two cylinders sitting with the exhaust valve open when the
engine is shut off just about everytime. If the boat sits in water then the
humidity is going to remain high through the exhaust system so it will get
high in the cylinder as well. It's not specific to an i/o though, any boat
with an inboard marinized auto engine is going to be in the same situation.
I would have expected the small amount of oil that gets past the valve stems
to keep the valves from sticking though.
The main issue specific to i/os in a slip is that the outdrive sits in the
water. Most outboards can be raised enough to get the entire engine out of
the water.
Regular use would probably reduce the problem. And that might explain why
commercial fishing boats run marinized auto engines for a long time without
problems.
Tim
> <LoogyPic...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
It could also have had a bad head gasket causing cooling water to
invade that one cylinder as well.
Jim
"jamesgangnc" <ja...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:U8qdnUgPQc79QhTV...@earthlink.com...
their exhaust systems beyond recommended limits.
JR North
in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
JR
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
James...@gmail.com
> The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
> in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> JR
>
>
That makes sense. So what's the plan?
Gene Kearns
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
IMHO........................... Jasper......
--
Agent 5.00 Build 1159
Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.
Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/
Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
JR North
the cylinders also while the heads are off. Since I had to pull the FWC
and P/S-Alt package to remove the left head, I yanked the water pump
also for replacement, and am going to pull the balancer and timing
cover. The cover is pretty rusty, so refinish there and new front seal.
A lot of the fasteners on the engine were not SS, and very corroded, so
a comprehensive replacement of all the steel fasteners also. I figure
this scenario is fortuitous; a couple more years and most of those
fasteners would have just snapped off.
JR
James...@gmail.com wrote:
--
Jim
"Gene Kearns" <gene.b...@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
news:4889fbf2$0$10968$834e...@reader.greatnowhere.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT), James...@gmail.com penned
> the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
> |On Jul 25, 11:21 am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> |> The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
> |> in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> |> also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> |> JR
> |>
> |>
> |
> |That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
> IMHO........................... Jasper......
junkyard and rebuild them. They won't accept marine heads for cores.
Eisboch
"Gene Kearns" <gene.b...@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
news:4889fbf2$0$10968$834e...@reader.greatnowhere.com...
> the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
> |On Jul 25, 11:21 am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> |> The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
> |> in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> |> also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> |> JR
> |>
> |>
> |
> |That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
> IMHO........................... Jasper......
>
Same opinion here. If you fix this block, the next thing that will happen
is one of the side plugs, buried down where you can't get at it will let go
and you'll be back to square one. (assuming it's raw water cooled). Don't
bother asking how I know.
Eisboch
sandpounder
I concur, the salt isn't the problem. Mine is slipped in the Salt and
when I rebuilt the engine there was no internal rust. There is a lot of
surface rust that you need to stay ahead of. Even if you can't take it
out, running the engine weekly if it sits in the salt helps. My boat
goes out fishing 1-2 times per week 44 weeks per year given decent weather.
With a valve frozen and that amount of rust I would want to look at the
oil pump and passageways. When the valve cover was open, did there
apprear to be oil on the rocker arms?
Sandpounder
24' Skipjack FB
Gene Kearns
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
|
|"Gene Kearns" <gene.b...@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote in message
|news:4889fbf2$0$10968$834e...@reader.greatnowhere.com...
|> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT), James...@gmail.com penned
|> the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
|>
|> |On Jul 25, 11:21 am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
|> |> The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
|> |> in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
|> |> also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
|> |> JR
|> |>
|> |>
|> |
|> |That makes sense. So what's the plan?
|>
|> IMHO........................... Jasper......
|Or any machine shop that does truck engines. They pick up old heads from a
|junkyard and rebuild them. They won't accept marine heads for cores.
If not freshwater cooled, I wouldn't want to keep the heads OR
block... once cast iron is impregnated with salt, it is an accident
waiting to happen.
Vic Smith
<gene.b...@myworkshop.idleplay.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT), James...@gmail.com penned
>the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
>|On Jul 25, 11:21?am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>|> The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
>|> in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
>|> also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
>|> JR
>|>
>|>
>|
>|That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
>IMHO........................... Jasper......
Just one data point. Had a Jasper rebuilt 350 develop a rod knock
with only about 25k miles on it.
I'd go with a factory crate. IMHO.
--Vic
James...@gmail.com
wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:14:36 -0400, Gene Kearns
>
> >On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT), JamesGan...@gmail.com penned
> >the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
>
> >|On Jul 25, 11:21?am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >|> The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
> >|> in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> >|> also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> >|> JR
> >|>
> >|>
> >|
> >|That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
> >IMHO........................... Jasper......
>
> Just one data point. Had a Jasper rebuilt 350 develop a rod knock
> with only about 25k miles on it.
> I'd go with a factory crate. IMHO.
>
> --Vic
I'd pull the valves on the two cyclinders with the rust, clean them up
and lap in a new exhaust valve. Stick it back together and run it
until something else goes. It'll only cost a hundred or so for
gaskets and a valve. The engine had good compression so it could go
another 500 hours. The valve problem is from going too long with a
bad exhaust. Not an engine problem.
Vic Smith
>I'd pull the valves on the two cyclinders with the rust, clean them up
>and lap in a new exhaust valve. Stick it back together and run it
>until something else goes. It'll only cost a hundred or so for
>gaskets and a valve. The engine had good compression so it could go
>another 500 hours. The valve problem is from going too long with a
>bad exhaust. Not an engine problem.
Yeah, that'll work.
I guess it depends on the condition of your back and tolerance
for all the hassle. And maybe on how long you think you'll keep the
boat.
--Vic
JR North
through an engine- it's a dead end proposition.
JR
JR North wrote:
--
JimH
Sorry about your problems with the boat. Glad to read that you got
things sorted out and have been given some solid advice. Ignore the
folks who were quick to jump on you for not fogging the engine when in
storage..............that same group constantly sees the glass as only
half full and are fast to find fault with the way folks live their
lives or maintain their boats.
JR North
JR
jamesgangnc
"JR North" <junkjas...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:hsWdnTT-McnNYRTV...@seanet.com...
JR North
cylinders'? I use a ball-type hone to break the glaze only. Not to
actually try to straighten and refinish the bore. The glaze-break hone
in-situ reseats the rings, provides additional texture for oil
retention on the cylinder wall.
JR
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:49:26 -0400, "jamesgangnc" <ja...@nospam.com>
wrote:
James...@gmail.com
> Nope. Just top end o/haul. I expect you ask because I said 'hone the
> cylinders'? I use a ball-type hone to break the glaze only. Not to
> actually try to straighten and refinish the bore. The glaze-break hone
> in-situ reseats the rings, provides additional texture for oil
> retention on the cylinder wall.
> JR
>
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:49:26 -0400, "jamesgangnc" <ja...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >So you're removing the block as well?
>
> >news:hsWdnTT-McnNYRTV...@seanet.com...
> >> My machinist is going to go through the heads. He's great. I will hone the
> >> cylinders also while the heads are off. Since I had to pull the FWC and
> >> P/S-Alt package to remove the left head, I yanked the water pump also for
> >> replacement, and am going to pull the balancer and timing cover. The cover
> >> is pretty rusty, so refinish there and new front seal. A lot of the
> >> fasteners on the engine were not SS, and very corroded, so a comprehensive
> >> replacement of all the steel fasteners also. I figure this scenario is
> >> fortuitous; a couple more years and most of those fasteners would have
> >> just snapped off.
> >> JR
>
>
> >>> On Jul 25, 11:21 am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
> >>>>in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> >>>>also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> >>>>JR
>
> >>> That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
> >> --
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Home Page:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
>
> HOME PAGE:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not sure I'd be comfortable with that. Never heard of anyone homing a
cylinder with the piston still in. Honing is primarily to create a
surface for new rings to break in against. You are not replacing the
rings and you do not have compression problems. Honing also produces
a great deal of metal dust that is very difficult to remove if the
piston is in the way. A lot of it is going to get trapped in the gap
between the piston and the cylinder walls. If you want to hone the
cylinders you need to remove the block and the pistons and also
replace the rings.
Vic Smith
>
>Not sure I'd be comfortable with that. Never heard of anyone homing a
>cylinder with the piston still in. Honing is primarily to create a
>surface for new rings to break in against. You are not replacing the
>rings and you do not have compression problems. Honing also produces
>a great deal of metal dust that is very difficult to remove if the
>piston is in the way. A lot of it is going to get trapped in the gap
>between the piston and the cylinder walls. If you want to hone the
>cylinders you need to remove the block and the pistons and also
>replace the rings.
The last bottom end I did (352) also needed ridge reaming, but it had
a lot more time (miles) on it. That leaves substantial shavings.
I didn't notice metal from doing the crosshatching, but the hone
leaves grit, which is no better.
A good blasting with compressed air around the gap should blow it out.
--Vic
James...@gmail.com
wrote:
Sorry, I'm still thinking that honing a cylinder with the piston in is
not a good idea.
Vic Smith
>On Jul 28, 12:53?pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT), JamesGan...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >Not sure I'd be comfortable with that. ?Never heard of anyone homing a
>> >cylinder with the piston still in. ?Honing is primarily to create a
>> >surface for new rings to break in against. ?You are not replacing the
>> >rings and you do not have compression problems. ?Honing also produces
>> >a great deal of metal dust that is very difficult to remove if the
>> >piston is in the way. ?A lot of it is going to get trapped in the gap
>> >between the piston and the cylinder walls. ?If you want to hone the
>> >cylinders you need to remove the block and the pistons and also
>> >replace the rings.
>>
>> The last bottom end I did (352) also needed ridge reaming, but it had
>> a lot more time (miles) on it. ?That leaves substantial shavings.
>> I didn't notice metal from doing the crosshatching, but the hone
>> leaves grit, which is no better.
>> A good blasting with compressed air around the gap should blow it out.
>>
>> --Vic
>
>Sorry, I'm still thinking that honing a cylinder with the piston in is
>not a good idea.
Me too, but it ain't my boat and I ain't doing the job.
For all I know he knows a hell of lot more than me about it.
I just wish JR luck and hope all goes well.
Have to keep a positive attitude (-:
--Vic
JR North
Honing in-situ is something I've done dozens of times, with 100%
success.. I tuck an oiled string around the piston gap, which prevents
debris from getting down the gap into the #1 ring gland. Also, a
thourogh wipe with a solvent rag until clean on the bore. Note you can
only do this with a Flex Hone (ball type).
JR
Tim
> OK Jamesgangnc-you switched to Gmail which I filter out entirely.
> Honing in-situ is something I've done dozens of times, with 100%
> success.. I tuck an oiled string around the piston gap, which prevents
> debris from getting down the gap into the #1 ring gland. Also, a
> thourogh wipe with a solvent rag until clean on the bore. Note you can
> only do this with a Flex Hone (ball type).
> JR
>
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:57:11 -0700, JR North
>
>
>
>
>
> <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >Nope. Just top end o/haul. I expect you ask because I said 'hone the
> >cylinders'? I use a ball-type hone to break the glaze only. Not to
> >actually try to straighten and refinish the bore. The glaze-break hone
> >in-situ reseats the rings, provides additional texture for oil
> >retention on the cylinder wall.
> >JR
>
> >On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:49:26 -0400, "jamesgangnc" <ja...@nospam.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>So you're removing the block as well?
>
> >>news:hsWdnTT-McnNYRTV...@seanet.com...
> >>> My machinist is going to go through the heads. He's great. I will hone the
> >>> cylinders also while the heads are off. Since I had to pull the FWC and
> >>> P/S-Alt package to remove the left head, I yanked the water pump also for
> >>> replacement, and am going to pull the balancer and timing cover. The cover
> >>> is pretty rusty, so refinish there and new front seal. A lot of the
> >>> fasteners on the engine were not SS, and very corroded, so a comprehensive
> >>> replacement of all the steel fasteners also. I figure this scenario is
> >>> fortuitous; a couple more years and most of those fasteners would have
> >>> just snapped off.
> >>> JR
>
>
> >>>> On Jul 25, 11:21 am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to run
> >>>>>in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> >>>>>also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> >>>>>JR
>
> >>>> That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
> >>> --
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Home Page:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
>
> >HOME PAGE:
> >http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
> >--------------------------------------------------
>
> HOME PAGE:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
>
> - Show quoted text -
I use gmail too, so I switched over to AOL acct, for this thread.
I see what you're doing and although it might be the most aproved
method, it's still good. Especially if pulling the block and total
dismantlement is prohibitive.
i think you're on the right track.
(now back to g-mail) ?: >
jamesgangnc
vehicles and no one ever honed a cylinder with the pistons still in. Nor
did I ever hear of anyone doing it at any dealerships or other shops.
"JR North" <junkjas...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:b63t84tlv0mciev0k...@4ax.com...
Loogy...@gmail.com
> Be that as it may, I worked for 6 years in fleet shop servicing over 2000
> vehicles and no one ever honed a cylinder with the pistons still in. Nor
> did I ever hear of anyone doing it at any dealerships or other shops.
>
>
> news:b63t84tlv0mciev0k...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > OK Jamesgangnc-you switched to Gmail which I filter out entirely.
> > Honing in-situ is something I've done dozens of times, with 100%
> > success.. I tuck an oiled string around the piston gap, which prevents
> > debris from getting down the gap into the #1 ring gland. Also, a
> > thourogh wipe with a solvent rag until clean on the bore. Note you can
> > only do this with a Flex Hone (ball type).
> > JR
>
> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:57:11 -0700, JR North
> > <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >>Nope. Just top end o/haul. I expect you ask because I said 'hone the
> >>cylinders'? I use a ball-type hone to break the glaze only. Not to
> >>actually try to straighten and refinish the bore. The glaze-break hone
> >>in-situ reseats the rings, provides additional texture for oil
> >>retention on the cylinder wall.
> >>JR
>
> >>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:49:26 -0400, "jamesgangnc" <ja...@nospam.com>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>So you're removing the block as well?
>
> >>>news:hsWdnTT-McnNYRTV...@seanet.com...
> >>>> My machinist is going to go through the heads. He's great. I will hone
> >>>> the
> >>>> cylinders also while the heads are off. Since I had to pull the FWC and
> >>>> P/S-Alt package to remove the left head, I yanked the water pump also
> >>>> for
> >>>> replacement, and am going to pull the balancer and timing cover. The
> >>>> cover
> >>>> is pretty rusty, so refinish there and new front seal. A lot of the
> >>>> fasteners on the engine were not SS, and very corroded, so a
> >>>> comprehensive
> >>>> replacement of all the steel fasteners also. I figure this scenario is
> >>>> fortuitous; a couple more years and most of those fasteners would have
> >>>> just snapped off.
> >>>> JR
>
>
> >>>>> On Jul 25, 11:21 am, JR North <junkjasonrno...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>The result of the failed right bank manifold, allowing sea water to
> >>>>>>run
> >>>>>>in the exhaust port into the cylinder. That's what seized the valve
> >>>>>>also. Only 2 cylinders show rust on the right bank, none on the left.
> >>>>>>JR
>
> >>>>> That makes sense. So what's the plan?
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Home Page:http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
>
> >>HOME PAGE:
> >>http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
> >>--------------------------------------------------
> > HOME PAGE:
> >http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know I wouldn't!
Tim
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know I wouldnt' either, but he opted not to pull the block so I'd
say he's got a good secondary idea, here.
Even so, he's already stated that this is a high hr engine and doesn't
expect to get a great amount of life out of it.
But granted that honing the cylinders arn't going to really provide
much to compensate the worn rings. Actually the honing might promote
premature compression failure and/or accelerated oil usage.
Again guys, it's not our engines and if he has some success, them more
power to him....
James...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agreed, he can do anything he wants to it. Not agreed that it is a
good idea. Any evidence is antidotal as to the success. Just because
the engine still worked is not evidence of success. There is no
reason to expect it to improve the engine's life expectancy and all
sorts of reason to think it will cause the opposite.
Tim
>
> - Show quoted text -
My thoughts exactly.
But, i wasn't going to say that...
?;^ )