Warning Friends & Viruses (long)
Marc Pottier
I just had a recent experience of having to warn a beginning boater
friend that they were pushing their limits a little too far. Given the
recent threads on responsibility and viruses, I thought it might be
apropos to share the story with people here.
In the last year I've been helping out as an assistant instructor with
one of the local kayaking courses. Basically this entails showing up for
the classes, helping people debug their rolls, and going on river trips
with novices to help get them energized about the sport and overcome
their fears. The people I boat with tend to be highly safety conscience,
and just about all of them have been boating for many years and have
taken river safety courses.
The last class of beginner kayakers completed their course last april.
So they've been boating on their own now for a few months. We end up
incorporating many of them into our paddling group to help them build up
their skills beyond that of the class... many of them learn quickly.
Both a blessing and a curse.
One of our students from the last course (whom I boat with often, but
who also boats with other clubs quite a bit) called me up yesterday and
talked about how she had run the Upper Green River Gorge (in
Washington). For those of you not familiar with the Gorge, it's a tight
gorge with many class IV drops. The drops generally are straight
forward, but swims can be long an hazardous (a rafter died there this
year after swimming through a class IV drop and getting pinned upside
down in a boulder sieve). The problem with the gorge is that you can't
get out of it. Once you're in, you're committed to doing the whole run,
you can't climb out.
I was very surprised that she ran this section of the river. She has a
pretty strong roll, but has been swimming at least once on every river
she's run up to now. She doesn't have excellent boat control (e.g. can't
surf waves all that well in class II/III), and often times requires
numerous roll attempts before coming up. In addition her river reading
skills aren't quite up to par... She tends to follow more than read her
own rivers.
It turned out that the day she ran the river (and only swam once- she
was proud about that), she went with another group of people she had
boated with a few times. There were five total in her group. Two had run
the gorge before and were experienced paddlers, the other three had not.
They had been planning to run the lower gorge (class II/III), but the
two experienced boaters talked the group into running the upper section
instead. "The water level's perfect for your first time down, you're
good enough, you'll be fine, just follow us."
They made it down OK, and just had one swim at the end. She obviously
was proud of having made it down a class IV river.
So here's the trick. How to tell her she was in over her head without
sounding condenscending, and without insulting her. How to tell her
without damaging a friendship and without making her think I'm a
complete worry wart and being over-protective... and also, how to tell
her that the group she went with was putting her in portentially
hazardous conditions and acting without responsibility.
I talked to her a bit about her run and tried to impress on her that
she wasn't ready for class IV. I explained that if she didn't have the
skills set needed to be extremely comfortable in class III (take her own
lines, surf any wave, jump in any eddy), that she shouldn't be trying
class IV yet. I explained to her that she probably could go down class
IV rivers if she wanted to, but that if something went wrong and she
missed her line, she probably didn't have the skill set needed to
correct the situation before it got really bad. After all, she hasn't
been kayking for more than a few months... not that many river hours. I
also mentioned that you can be lucky. One day you can hit all your
lines, and the next day you could miss them all. If you don't have the
skills, luck is a huge factor... if you do have the skills, then skill
starts to become a huge factor. Just because you make it down one class
IV rapid doesn't make you a class IV boater...
I also tried to impress on her that her "friends" made a really bad
judgement call.
1) A 2:3 ratio of experienced people who know the river to
semi-experienced people who don't know the river is not enough (in my
opinion). If one person swims, the two experienced boaters can probably
handle the situation... they know what's coming up downstream and know
how to get in position to pull the person out. If two people swim (we
all know that when there's a swimmer in the water, strange things start
to happen and hell can break loose pretty fast), two boaters are
probably not enough to pull two swimmers out of a class IV drop safely.
2) They should never have assumed that "she was good enough". They had
only boated with her a few times, and didn't know her skill set all that
well. Making an assumption like that is dangerous. The only person who
can decide whether they're ready to step up a class is the person
running the river.
3) She didn't really know what she was getting herself into. You can't
scout the drops in the gorge... which makes for a tough first decent
through class IV. following lines is fine, if you can stay on them.
4) She should never have let herself be talked into running something
just because more experienced boaters wanted to run the upper section
rather than the easier lower section that day.
I think some of my concerns and warnings may have stuck with her. We'll
see what happens in the long term. But there are a few lessons I
learned:
1) It's a lot easier to talk about warning beginners than it is to
actually do it. As a rule I don't like telling people what they can or
cannot do, but as a more experienced boater, I feel like I have a
responsibility to do so when I see a potentially dangerous situation.
It's a little bit of an internal conflict.
2) The virus exists. Regardless of what people say, there are a lot of
experienced boaters who downplay risks to less advanced boaters just so
that they can get a day in on more difficult water. It might be more fun
for them (the experienced boater), but it's unfairly placing a less
experienced boater in a hazardous situation. I'm not saying everyone
does this, but that it does happen... and it doesn't do anyone any good.
3) Experienced boaters should realize that beginning boaters don't know
their own skill set. If you haven't boated with people much before,
don't assume they have sufficient skill sets. Beginning boaters also
often times look to experienced boaters for reassurance and validation.
They expect the more experienced boater to have perfect judgement about
the situation... this isn't always true. If you're just starting out
with paddling, trust your own instincts about what you can or cannot do.
Don't let yourself be talked into doing something you're not ready for.
Realize that you do have limitations, and that in some situations those
limitations can result in fatal consequences.
Well, I'm probably preaching to the choir, but given the large numbers
of deaths on the river this last year, I figured this experience might
be well recieved. I don't mean to be overbearing, but there are risks...
and we do have some responsbility in warning others and promoting
safety.
Happy Paddling!
-Marc
______________________________________________________
Marc Pottier "The limitations of the information
Product Designer age will not be set by speed with
Founding Team which the human mind can read".
Cartia, Inc. -SPIRE Team, 1995
(425) 468-9054
mickie
Marc,
Excellent post! I hope this turns into a really long thread with many
insights offered!
> So here's the trick. How to tell her she was in over her head without
> sounding condenscending, and without insulting her. How to tell her
> without damaging a friendship and without making her think I'm a
> complete worry wart and being over-protective... and also, how to tell
> her that the group she went with was putting her in portentially
> hazardous conditions and acting without responsibility.
As coincidences go, I have a similar situation that I must deal with. I
need help out there too!
Last night a newbie I know (who doesn't lurk here..but Rattso, Mary and
Greg you know him!) said he wanted to paddle Monroe Bridge Section of
the Deerfield river with me. This section is class 3+/4. This newbie
has maybe paddled about 15 times on class 2 rivers. He does not have a
solid roll but has been rolling recently. He has not paddled any 3
rivers.
After running a class 3 rapid successfully 2 weeks ago, he turned to me
and said "Now I am a class 3 paddler!" Actually I commented on this last
night too in the "Kayaking Deaths-2 cents" thread. I thought I
succeeded at convincing him that he was not yet a class 3 paddler.
Obviously I failed.
Now here I am left wondering how to handle. I thought to bcc him in on
every safety post on RBP :) Of course I can't force him to consider. I
will *not* bring down Monroe Bridge section and I pray no one else
will. I can see the latter happening as he has a tendency it seems to
fudge with his skills. A rafting outfitter informed him that he could
run Hudson Gorge (class 3+) so I am assuming that he has been not been
being truthful about his lack of skills (rather than assuming that the
outfitter is irresponsible).
I don't know the best way to effectively handle...although right now,
with Irish blood cells overboiling, I can think of plenty of ineffective
methods! As I said I have tried talking to him, as has Greg at one
point. I just don't know what else to do. At some point I do hope to
ask him *why* he wants to do such an obviously asinine and reckless
thing. I have a feeling however he will say he likes taking a risk. He
has said this to me before. I have already distinquished for him
between acceptable, intelligent risk taking and plain foolish and
responsible risk taking. Could it be because I am a female that he will
not listen :-/ I really don't get it and would appreciate any help I
can get.
Thanks!!
Mickie
I would greatly appreciate
Karl Gesslein
more experience on class III rivers instead of paddling class IV which was
defidently the right thing to do. I'm not sure you can really impress on her the
danger that she is putting herself and others in. At the risk of sounding like a
bigot here I have seen both sides of the fence here as the person trying to tell
people they are over their heads and as the person taking people down rapids they
are not ready for yet. This by no means makes me an expert ... but here's my
advice anyways.
Offer to paddle with her on class II and III rivers, if she expresses interest in
class IV then tell her that you think she may need more practice before tackling
those rivers.
Ask her how the progress on her bullet proof combat roll is doing, go out and roll
with her during the week if you can.
Try to be positive about her abilities instead of being negative. When you tell
people things like 'I don't think you're ready for that', etc their defense
mechinisms kick in then it becomes impossible to reach them. Trust must be earned,
once you have it you must protect it and not do anything to break that trust.
Encourage her every chance you get so she will feel good about herself and her
progress.
I will never forget my conversation with Ben Stone after we took off the Hudson for
that first time when he first started paddling. All I said to him was, 'keep
working on your roll, you need a bullet proof roll when you paddle anything class
III or greater'. If I could turn back the clock and talk to him more, I would have
said some of the things I really felt, the things that Marlo and I discussed
between ourselves. I would have sat him down, just him and I and really asked him:
What he wanted out of paddling?
Where was it taking him?
Was he in control of his boat or was the water in control of him?
How was he going to find his place on the river?
What was his plan to get where he wanted to go?
I would have pleaded with him not to stumble off into the darkness without
direction and skills and understanding he would need to survive on the water. My
god, I wanted so badly to help him see the river through my eyes. Instead I took
the easy path, I pussed out, I was never real with him, I never told him what I
wanted to say, and now he is gone. I pray that does not happen to you or anyone
else.
Karl
--
Join the NE Whitewater Paddling Mail list www.cheme.cornell.edu/karl
email: ka...@cheme.cornell.edu phone: 607 277-8110
-- Its not about what kind of boat you paddle or what you look like, --
-- Its about our unbridled passion for paddling whitewater. --
mickie
> has said this to me before. I have already distinquished for him
> between acceptable, intelligent risk taking and plain foolish and
> responsible risk taking.
Of course I met plain foolish and *ir*responsible risk taking in that
last part of the sentence - you all knew that. Right!?
Mickie
Mary Malmros
>> Marc Pottier wrote a great post/incident report:
>
>Marc,
>Excellent post! I hope this turns into a really long thread with many
>insights offered!
>
>> sounding condenscending, and without insulting her. How to tell her
>> without damaging a friendship and without making her think I'm a
>> complete worry wart and being over-protective... and also, how to tell
>> her that the group she went with was putting her in portentially
>> hazardous conditions and acting without responsibility.
>
>need help out there too!
>
>Last night a newbie I know (who doesn't lurk here..but Rattso, Mary and
>Greg you know him!) said he wanted to paddle Monroe Bridge Section of
>the Deerfield river with me. This section is class 3+/4. This newbie
>has maybe paddled about 15 times on class 2 rivers. He does not have a
>solid roll but has been rolling recently. He has not paddled any 3
>rivers.
Oboy. NOT AGAIN.
All I can say is "Bull's Bridge" and "Good luck". Also that the three
times I saw this individual go over, he swam each time -- and immediately
stood up. Two of those times was in the middle of a river. You were
there for the third time, but you were busy pulling my butt out, so
perhaps you didn't see it ;-)
>After running a class 3 rapid successfully 2 weeks ago, he turned to me
>and said "Now I am a class 3 paddler!" Actually I commented on this last
>night too in the "Kayaking Deaths-2 cents" thread. I thought I
>succeeded at convincing him that he was not yet a class 3 paddler.
>Obviously I failed.
I saw your post in that thread. I tend to go with your definition of
what a class (fill it the blank) paddler is, but you and I are in the
minority. I know many, many people who call themselves class III paddlers
because they've run a single class III drop.
On the flip side, I've got a moderate amount of noise from several
people because I've yet to run Zoar Gap. I'm not afraid to do it. I
think I should be able to do it okay. But I don't want to do it "okay".
I want my first run through the Gap to be a really good run. I won't
be crushed if it isn't, but I want to do my best, not just flail my
way through it. A lot of people don't seem toget his -- "Geez
it's Zoar Gap what's the big deal" -- but I ran into one of the
instructors from my newbie class on Sunday, and he understood. That
made me feel better about the whole thing.
>Now here I am left wondering how to handle. I thought to bcc him in on
>every safety post on RBP :) Of course I can't force him to consider. I
>will *not* bring down Monroe Bridge section and I pray no one else
>will. I can see the latter happening as he has a tendency it seems to
>fudge with his skills. A rafting outfitter informed him that he could
>run Hudson Gorge (class 3+) so I am assuming that he has been not been
>being truthful about his lack of skills (rather than assuming that the
>outfitter is irresponsible).
>
>I don't know the best way to effectively handle...although right now,
>with Irish blood cells overboiling, I can think of plenty of ineffective
>methods! As I said I have tried talking to him, as has Greg at one
>point. I just don't know what else to do. At some point I do hope to
>ask him *why* he wants to do such an obviously asinine and reckless
>thing. I have a feeling however he will say he likes taking a risk. He
>has said this to me before. I have already distinquished for him
>between acceptable, intelligent risk taking and plain foolish and
>responsible risk taking. Could it be because I am a female that he will
>not listen :-/ I really don't get it and would appreciate any help I
>can get.
I don't think it's your gender. I think it's just someone who will
hear what he wants to hear. We ALL do it, in ways big and small; with
time, we hopefully develop the wisdom to mentally call bullshit on
ourselves when we find ourselves doing it. But I think that's very
much a learned skill, and most of us learn it -- if we do -- as a result
of making mistakes.
When I take newbies hiking, I let them make mistakes -- but I'm careful
about what kind of mistakes. Small, low-consequence mistakes are a
great learning tool for most folks! Being uncomfortable because you
decided to hike in jeans and got all chafed; having to eat a messy
dinner because you forgot your spoon; having to drink yucky iodine-tasting
water because you didn't pack enough clean water; spending a shivery
night because you forgot your sleeping pad* -- these are ways that
people learn. After an experience like that, IME, the average person
not only says, "Guess I won't do THAT again!" but can extrapolate and
also start learning to avoid other mistakes. Having made a mistake,
they can learn to see other mistakes coming.
Most of the time, that is. Sometimes, it just doesn't work that way.
To you, the outsider, the clue stick may be obvious. You can see the size
and shape and color and texture and wood grain and Louisville Slugger
emblem from fifty feet away. The person who's getting whacked with it,
on the other hand, can't see it. "Look!" you say, "Clue stick!
Big one! On your HEAD! Contusions! Lacerations! Intracranial
bleed! Don't you GET IT???" And what comes back is, "Gee, it's really
not all that bad, I just got a little bump, happens to everyone, and
what stick are you talking about anyway?"
When this is what happens, in response to your attempts at reasoning
and pointing out danger, sometimes walking away is the right thing to
do. I will not argue about whether this is tantamount to abandonment;
maybe it is, but that's almost nothing but name-calling. What I
_will_ argue is that it's frequently effective, or necessary, or
both. Effective, because to someone who has learned to tune out
people's concerns, the act of someone walking away can have a very
sobering effect. I have never seen this (yet) on the river, but I have
seen it many times before in many other arenas: someone gets told,
"I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be with you on this. I think what
you are doing is dangerous and self-destructive and I refuse to help
you in any way. I don't want to be there when you die, I don't want
to try to rescue and possibly endanger others and myself, I don't
want to have to make the phone call to your next of kin." Sometimes,
when all else has failed, the statement made by walking away sinks
in -- but only if you do it. If you walk away, then walk back, it'll
never work. You'll have established yourself as a fallback, and this
person will be even less willing to look out for himself than before.
And necessary? Well, sometimes it's necessary for the reasons stated
above. I spent years watching someone very dear to me engage in
self-destructive behavior, and it made my life hell. Ultimately, I had
to decide whether _I_ was going to live or die. I chose life, and that
meant walking away from any involvement with a person whose refusal
to cease her self-destructive behavior left me no other choice.
So that's what I did. That's what I think I would do in this situation,
if I were in your place. That's the way that I deal, when things get
to that state. I don't pretend it's the only way of dealing, I don't
say it's the right way. It's the right way for me.
*By the BTW, no, I have not had the personal "learning experience"
from any of these. I have had "learning experiences" with wet boots
and socks, cotton t-shirts, and improperly rigged rainflys. Don't
ask. I'll carry the scars to my grave. Or at least, the humiliation.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
Wilko
>
> As coincidences go, I have a similar situation that I must deal with.
> I don't know the best way to effectively handle...although right now,
> with Irish blood cells overboiling, I can think of plenty of ineffective
> methods! As I said I have tried talking to him, as has Greg at one
> point. I just don't know what else to do. At some point I do hope to
> ask him *why* he wants to do such an obviously asinine and reckless
> thing. I have a feeling however he will say he likes taking a risk.
I have the same situation, with a buddy that seems to have the skills to
run class III stuff pretty well, but who has had serious difficulties on
anything more difficult. His roll is still shaky.
I like him, but that also makes it more difficult to tell him not to run
class IV. Last week I told him that I probably wasn't going to take him
on class IV this next holiday (mostly because I was shaken badly by his
near misses during our last holiday together, but also since he seems to
be lacking the experience and skills for class IV)). He wasn't happy
about my announcement...
Still, I will fear for his life if I would take him on another class
III/IV river. For me this sport is about fun and safety, and being
worried about someone else all the time is not what I view as fun.
Also, I don't want to lose another paddling buddy.
No matter what the reasons, it still feels bad and difficult to give
such a message to someone you enjoy paddling with. :-(
--
Wilko van den Bergh quibus(at)xs4all(dot)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Whitewater Kayaker AD&D Dungeon Master
------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that paddling is about fun and safety,
you shouldn't have one without the other...
------------------------------------------------------------------
(c)1999 by Wilko
Peik Borud
> > So here's the trick. How to tell her she was in over her head
without
> > sounding condenscending, and without insulting her. How to tell her
> > without damaging a friendship and without making her think I'm a
> > complete worry wart and being over-protective... and also, how to tell
> > her that the group she went with was putting her in portentially
> > hazardous conditions and acting without responsibility.
Hi from Peik:
We're all on both sides of this thing aren't we?
At least I am. I've had a swim this year, and a
buddy lost lotsa playtime retrieving my boat.
Maybe that made me a less attractive buddy.
A minor comfort was his statement that it was
at least Grade 4 at that level....
BTW I got some bruises, but none of us ever
thought of it as lifethreatening to a strong
swimmer used to being on the river.
Last week I arrived late: my friend and 2 others
were undressing at the take-out. He didn't show
any discomfort at my proposal of soloing at
Grade 2-3, which I did with no trouble.
Is this any worse than me taking a beginner
down the same stretch, undertaking the
responsibility for his/her safety and my own?
This is a never ending story, and handling these
things are an important part of what the river teaches
us.
Good thread :-)
--
Peik Borud
Norway
pe...@online.no
Courtney Nipper
What you wrote was perfect. I think you should give her a copy of what
you've typed here and the responses you receive from this post to let her
know how you as well as others feel about the situation. I have been
paddling for 7 years. I too am an instructor that teaches many beginners.
I have also told several people they are moving to fast. When they don't
listen to me, I take them out on a "safe" class III / IV river, tell them to
leed me down it to find out how and why they pick the lines they did. If
they pick a bad line, I explain why that was a bad line and what could
happen by taking it. This shows them and myself how good they are at
reading water. I get them to do some of the hardest creek moves, ferries,
and eddy catching I can find. 50% of the time they can't do them. I
pretend like there is a house sized undercut behind them and they have to
surf this wave to the other side of the river as not to go into it. This
shows them they need to learn to surf otherwise sh-t can happen. Not just
to be able to surf for a few moments but to be able to stay on the wave and
do what they want to do on it when they want to do it. I've even been known
to get a friend that was really pushing his limits trashed in a big but safe
hole because I knew he could not make the move but he thought he could do
it. When this happened to him, it woke him up quickly and he slowed his
pace down and finally concentrated on the things he needed to learn. At
present I have a friend that has the exact same skills as your friend does
and he was supposed to do the New River a couple of weeks ago. Some others
convinced him "quickly" to run the Upper Gauley instead. He did o.k on it
but I know if he doesn't slow down that he will get himself killed as well
and I don't want to be the person he has put in danger trying to save him
and I don't want to lose a friend. I don't know if these new paddlers get
it or not but by making some of the decisions they do for themselves, they
are putting the rest of the group in danger as well if something were to
happen to them. Does your friend know river rescue skills? Can she help
herself as well as others? This is something she NEEDS to learn as soon as
possible if she insists on running harder rapids.
Good luck in trying to help her. Remember, all you can do is tell her. You
can't make her do it. Hopefully she will listen to you. It would be ashame
to lose another boater due to the virus.
Courtney Nipper
Rapid Adventures
Marc Pottier wrote in message <37691548...@cartia.com>...