container radar ping on am radio
dave
separation zone as a container ship came down on me yesterday. It was a
clear day, and I saw him from a-far. I let him figure it out, and
held-on to my course while i listened to an am radio station -dr. laura,
i think. i was bored. The large ship went by me about two football
field's away. Very close. A giant wake. And as he slid by me my am radio
made a ping noise- like old submarine movies. Every 360 turn of his
radar it made a PING on my AM radio - and the ship and the Ping on my
radio came and went. The ship passed; the ping sound only happened while
the ship was really close. PING,PING on my AM radio. It came on the
radio and went away as soon as the ship had passed. I didn't have my
reflector up because i still haven't figured out the double-rain-catcher
position. SO, i am wondering why the brief ping sound was heard on my am
radio? And does that mean that they can see me with just my mast?
thank's anyone in advance...
........................................
s/v kabuki maru seattle
pm
warn the unwary AM smallboat listener that he is about to meet his maker.
Either that or its just his radar interferring with your radio.
pm
hov...@webtv.net (dave) wrote in <21976-3B3EFD3D-112@storefull-
142.iap.bryant.webtv.net>:
Terry K
timing the reception of echos from targets. The target (you) is
bathed in strong microwaves for only an instant each time the
directional rotating antenna is pointing at you. These radio waves
cause a signal to be forced in to your radio reciever, even though
the radar pulses are of the wrong frequency, they are strong enough
that it causes interference. That is the noise you hear.
Just because a ship has it's radar transmitter turned on is no
garauntee that anyone is actually looking at the radarscope receiver
display. A lone mast gives a weak return. They will probably not
notice you unless your engine rises to a line of sight elevation
visible to the antenna above the waves, unless you have an effective
reflector. Hang the reflector so that rain would be caught in the
'v' corners at the top.
Terry K
Rosalie B.
<snip>
>
>Just because a ship has it's radar transmitter turned on is no
>garauntee that anyone is actually looking at the radarscope receiver
>display. A lone mast gives a weak return. They will probably not
>notice you unless your engine rises to a line of sight elevation
>visible to the antenna above the waves, unless you have an effective
>reflector. Hang the reflector so that rain would be caught in the
>'v' corners at the top.
>
>>
>> I have a stupid question. I was going along wing-on-wing in the vessel
>> separation zone as a container ship came down on me yesterday. It was a
>> clear day, and I saw him from a-far. I let him figure it out, and
>> held-on to my course while i listened to an am radio station -dr. laura,
I want to know why you held to on your course and let him figure it out.
Surely you didn't think you were the stand on vessel because you were
sailing? Or were you? What is a vessel separation zone?
>> i think. i was bored. The large ship went by me about two football
>> field's away. Very close. A giant wake. And as he slid by me my am radio
>> made a ping noise- like old submarine movies. Every 360 turn of his
>> radar it made a PING on my AM radio - and the ship and the Ping on my
>> radio came and went. The ship passed; the ping sound only happened while
>> the ship was really close. PING,PING on my AM radio. It came on the
>> radio and went away as soon as the ship had passed. I didn't have my
>> reflector up because i still haven't figured out the double-rain-catcher
>> position. SO, i am wondering why the brief ping sound was heard on my am
>> radio? And does that mean that they can see me with just my mast?
>>
>> thank's anyone in advance...
>>
>> ........................................
>>
>> s/v kabuki maru seattle
grandma Rosalie
edgar cove
<hov...@webtv.net> writes
You didn't have your radar reflector up because you could not figure out
which way it went? You saw a container ship and as it was a clear day
you let him figure out how to avoid you? You were bored? You were
happy to let a container ship as close to you as 'two football pitches'?
You thought you were in the separation zone? (Seems more likely you were
in the shipping lanes)
Never mind the damn ping which interrupted your listening to Dr Laura
(!) You should be totally ashamed that only the ping strikes you as
interesting about this incident.
People like you get all yachtsmen a bad name. I bet he never even saw
you over his containers. You risked your life and (worse) those of your
crew and you do not seem to realise it.
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
edgar cove
<gmbe...@mindspring.com> writes
> What is a vessel separation zone?
Rosalie, in very crowded waters such as the English Channel separation
zones are set up so that large vessels proceeding in one direction
remain in a two mile wide shipping lane. Vessels proceeding in the
other direction have a different two mile wide shipping lane and the two
lanes are separated by a 'separation zone' which is also two miles wide.
It is rather like a turnpike road with a central reservation, but the
difference here is that vessels proceeding across the lanes, say from UK
to France are supposed to cross as nearly as possible at right angles to
the flow in the shipping lanes. In some places skippers can be heavily
fined for breaching these rules as in the Straits of Dover, the busiest
shipping channel in the world, (only 20 miles between UK and France)
where very vessel is tracked on radar just like Air traffic Control.
So in a yacht at maybe 5 knots it can be pretty scary crossing between
25 knot container ships, especially at night.
It is nothing to have six or so huge ships coming along in line at one
time and you have to make sure you give way in good time since any small
vessel less than 3/4 mile ahead is invisible to many of them. You have
to have a pad of paper and make a column for each sighting (ship A,
ship b and so on) and with a hand bearing compass check each one every
few minutes to see if the bearing changes. If it does not, then you the
yachtsman have to take avoiding action, whether you think you are the
'stand-on' vessel or not, as these ships take up to six miles to stop
and even if they saw you their turning circle can be two miles radius.
So it takes nearly half an hour to cross one shipping lane and then
after another half hour in the separation zone you start over again with
ships coming the other way. No time for relaxation, it is serious
stuff.
regards
Jim Donohue
I know of where the ships are actually at a density that requires any great
degree of prepartion to slide between them. Mostly one every couple of
hours. And mostly going relatively slowly in the seperation zones.
As in Europe the ships in the zone have right away on those crossing. In
fact there is a specific "shall not impede" for sailboats.
I would have little doubt that any modern container ship is painting a
sailboat at a couple of miles. I find normal small boat radar easily paints
a panga at a mile. Whether anyone is looking is another question but I
would suspect good to excellent radar attention anyplace near Dover.
On a slightly different subject the catch rain position is not recommended
for sailboats or any vessel that rolls heavily from level. It is the best
position for a vertical mast but rapidly deteriorates on any significant
displacement from vertical. The double catch rain is preferred.
Jim
"edgar cove" <ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8EtZRIAg...@coves.demon.co.uk...
Jack Dale
"Rosalie B." <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ccmujt8vqqqq7svv9...@4ax.com...
> I want to know why you held to on your course and let him figure it out.
> Surely you didn't think you were the stand on vessel because you were
> sailing? Or were you? What is a vessel separation zone?
>
Sail boats are not always stand on. See Rule 18.
I noticed that the original post sails out of Seattle. I know that there
are traffic separation zones in the vicinity. For example, almost all of
Rosario Strait is a traffic separation zone.
Check out Rule 10 of Colregs (especially j.)
Rule 10
Traffic Separation Schemes
(a) This rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the
Organization and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any
other rule.
(b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:
(i) Proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of
traffic flow for that lane.
(ii) So far as is practicable keep clear of a traffic separation line or
separation zone.
(iii) Normally join or leave a traffic lane at the termination of the lane,
but when joining or leaving from either side shall do so at as small an
angle to the general direction of traffic flow as practicable.
(c) A vessel shall so far as practicable avoid crossing traffic lanes, but
if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at
right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.
(d)
(i)A vessel shall not use an inshore traffic zone when she can safely use
the appropriate traffic lane within the adjacent traffic separation scheme.
However, vessels of less than 20 meters in length, sailing vessels and
vessels engaged in fishing may use the inshore traffic zone.
(ii)Notwithstanding subparagraph (d)(i), a vessel may use an inshore traffic
Zone when en route to or from a port, offshore installation or structure,
pilot station or any other place situated within the inshore traffic zone,
or to avoid immediate danger.
(e) A vessel, other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a
lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation line
except:
(i) in cases of emergency to avoid immediate danger;
(ii) to engage in fishing within a separation zone.
(f) A vessel navigating in areas near the terminations of traffic separation
schemes shall do so with particular caution.
(g) A vessel shall so far as practicable avoid anchoring in a traffic
separation scheme or in areas near its terminations.
(h) A vessel not using a traffic separating scheme shall avoid it by as wide
a margin as is practicable.
(i) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any vessel
following a traffic lane.
(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not
impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane.
(k) A vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver when engaged in an
operation for the maintenance of safety of navigation in a traffic
separating scheme is exempted from complying with this Rule to the extent
necessary to carry out the operation.
(l) A vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver when engaged in an
operation for the laying, servicing or picking up a submarine cable, within
a traffic separating scheme, is exempted from complying with this Rule to
the extent necessary to carry out the operation.
Jack
--
__________________________________________________
Jack Dale Sailing
ISPA and CYA Instruction
http://members.attcanada.ca/~jds/
Phone: (403)239-1429 Cell: (403)861-5296
Ringmaster Boating and Sailing Instruction on the Internet
http://nav.webring.yahoo.com/hub?ring=boatingandsaili3
As I sail I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
__________________________________________________
HLAviation
>I know of where the ships are actually at a density that requires any great
>degree of prepartion to slide between them. Mostly one every couple of
>hours. And mostly going relatively slowly in the seperation zones
You've never crossed the Galveston ship channel before I assume.
dave
part of North America in what is called Admiralty Inlet - so named in
1792 by a Cptn. George Vancouver - an acquaintance of Cook & also the
Skipper of The Bounty. Seamen long before there were container ship's
and separation lanes.... And we sometimes have ship after ship passing
through here. I would never think of recklessly endangering my self,
vessel, or my crew - my English Springer Spaniel, Scamper. These large
ship's here have pilot's to get them into port, and I believe that the
pilot had my number just as I had his, on a clear day. I saw him from
miles away, as he also saw me. It was the Esson (?), Hamburg. The fact
is, I had already waited for two other container ship's to pass before I
ventured into the separation zones. I was working with light wind's on
my butt and against an ebb tide. Slow going... And I wanted to get
across to my home port, eventually. I have no idea (who) was the
stand-on vessel. Me? Him? I suppose that he was bigger -that it was Him
- a respect that I give to all power boater's, especially container
ship's. Thank You to ALL for your thought's & idea's & info..
dave
simply must sail with the heavy container traffic. The container ship's
let boater's know with blast's of their loud horn's sometimes from many
miles away if a boat is in their way. I believe they sound five or six
short blast's. This ship never blew it's horn at me nor did he or the
Coast Guard contact me on channel 16. If he had I would have moved.
Doug Dotson
You have to very careful on this board. It is not accepted to
actually provide a specific answer to a specific question :)
I suspect that harmonics from the radar pulse got into your
receiver's front end. Or that the pulse induced harmonics
in your receiver. Hard to tell, could even have induced
a signal into the audio stage since those pulses carry
quite a punch. Probably the same effect that happens
when lightening is in the area, but the rader pulses are
more well formed so you get a nice sound. I don't
usually listen to AM radio when sailing. I'll try tuning
in a cargo ship next time a pass one.
Doug
Jim Donohue
20 knots. In the Houston ship channel? I don't think so.
Jim
"HLAviation" <hlavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010702000703...@ng-mo1.aol.com...
Steve
Puget Sound area and I am very familiar with the traffic in this very
commercial area.
I had not intention of "flaming" you, but from you last comment I suspect
you are not very familiar at all with the Rules of the Road. Especially
those concerning whistle signals.
You state "... let boater's know with blast's of their loud horn's "..... "
I believe they sound five or six
short blast's". If a ship gave you a whistle signal of four or more short
blasts, he doesn't understand your intentions and is giving you a DANGER
SIGNAL. You have an obligation to answer his signal. Forget about the Coast
Guard contacting you on channel 16. Are you going to wait for them to tall
you how to navigate your boat?? You should know what course to take to avoid
dangerous situations.
I'm not the person to try and educate you (I really need a refresher course
myself having been "On the Hard" for 6 years), but I would strongly
recommend that you read up on the Rules of the Road before you go out into
the shipping lanes again. Or better yet, take a course. I'm tempted to ask
you to stay off the water until you do, but then a large number of the
pleasure boaters out there have a similar lack of knowledge of the Rules of
the Road.
A pleasure boater must know and abide by the same Rules of the Road as the
Captain or the Pilot on that container ship that shares the water way.
You can't just assume that these big ships are going to "let boater's know
with a blast's of their loud horn's" especially if you don't have a clue as
to the meanings of each signal.
Additionally, if your going to be sailing in the commercial traffic lanes of
Puget Sound, please refer to your chart and the Note "A" which further
refers you to traffic regulations published in Chapter 2, U.S. Coast Pilot
7.
Your not just going out there on the water for a "Joy Ride". You have
responsibility learn the rules and how to safely navigate with commercial
ships and other pleasure boats as well.
Sorry, I guess this did turn into a "flame".
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
HLAviation
>20 knots. In the Houston ship channel? I don't think so.
>
Now, read what I said one more time...
>> You've never crossed the Galveston ship channel before I assume.
>>
Galveston, as in the approach fairways, commonly reffered to as ship channel.
Please pull up chart 11323 for further clarification. Not only is there one,
there are many all converging in one spot (no 2 mile seperation zone though)
which is surrounded by a busy anchorage, oil platforms, and lightering
operations, and yes ships are moving through there at 20 kts. I had to run in
and out of Tesoro's dock on Pelican Island several times on the last job.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Doug Dotson
Doug
Dan
> And this has to do with a ping heard on the radio in what way?
Because the world does not revolve around you.
Dan
--
Here lies poor Lester Moore
Shot 4 times with a .44
No Les.
No Moore.
Dan
> And this has to do with a ping heard on the radio in what way?
Because the world does not revolve around you... but sometimes container
ships have to.
Rosalie B.
>And this has to do with a ping heard on the radio in what way?
Because the OP said
> I was going along wing-on-wing in the vessel
>separation zone as a container ship came down on me yesterday
>
grandma Rosalie
Doug Dotson
were not directly related to the pinging sound.
Doug
Richard
sea....You cannot move a large container ship with the wreckage of a small
sailboat tangled in the propeller.
dave <hov...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26412-3B4...@storefull-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Paul Lever
http://www.uscg.mil/d13/units/vts/RecPamphlet4.htm . Vessel Traffic Control
handles 230,000 ships per year.
Paul
"Jack Dale" <j...@attcanada.ca> wrote in message
news:m6S%6.41173$TW.2...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Steve
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
LaBomba182
>From: "Richard"
>Remember that the Captains of container ships ALWAYS obey the law of the
>sea....You cannot move a large container ship with the wreckage of a small
>sailboat tangled in the propeller.
Want to bet?
Capt. Bill
James Moran
Why not just ring up the ship on CH 13 (or whatever the ship-to-ship
hailing channel is there) and ask the ship his intention and whether you
are in the way?
Jim Moran
Doug Dotson
I was heading down the bay at night when I came across a
tug pushing a barge. He called me on channel 16 and
asked me what my intentions were. I asked him what
would be more comfortable for him since I could alter
in either direction. No risk of collision was present yet.
He said it was my decision. I have a feeling that if he told
me what direction to go and an accident happened, he
could be heald partially at fault. So if you call call cargo
ship and ask "am I in your way" and he says no and then
plows you under, he may be at fault. I'm not sure about
all of this but I'm sure someout there does.
I don't know about other parts of the country, but around
here (upper Chesapeake) the bridge tenders will no longer
announce which direction has the right-of-way on an opening.
They won't even tell you if you ask. They will tell you that it
is up to you to know.
Doug
Steve
a ship (bridge to bridge). I find it unnecessary if both vessels are
following the ROTR. This is not to say that you shouldn't, if in doubt.
It could become a communications nightmare on the bridge of a commercial
ship if every small craft in the area called up and ask about the ships
intentions.
If the ship is in the traffic lane, then it should be obvious where they are
going and how the small craft should deal with the situation.
My opinion, for what it's worth.
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Rosalie B.
>In the 35+ years of pleasure boating, I have yet to find a need to speak to
>a ship (bridge to bridge). I find it unnecessary if both vessels are
>following the ROTR. This is not to say that you shouldn't, if in doubt.
We were going in to Lake Worth inlet early one morning, and we saw a small
cruise ship also approaching. We did a circle so as to get out of their
way, and then were behind them following them into the inlet. Suddenly it
appeared as though the ship was backing up!! I asked my husband if I was
seeing right, and then called them on the radio. I said "What are you
DOING??" (I called on 13 first and got no response, so by the time I
called on 16 I was upset and didn't use completely correct radio protocol I
know.) They said they were waiting for their pilot.
Other instances where it might be helpful to communicate with a ship are
1) Going through the rockpile on the ICW
2) If there is a tug with a tow and you aren't sure where the tow is.
>
>It could become a communications nightmare on the bridge of a commercial
>ship if every small craft in the area called up and ask about the ships
>intentions.
>
>If the ship is in the traffic lane, then it should be obvious where they are
>going and how the small craft should deal with the situation.
grandma Rosalie
Jere Lull
> I think there may be some legel liability involved. <snip>
>
> I don't know about other parts of the country, but around
> here (upper Chesapeake) the bridge tenders will no longer
> announce which direction has the right-of-way on an opening.
> They won't even tell you if you ask. They will tell you that it
> is up to you to know.
The Kent Narrows' tender has stated that he can't say who should go first due
to liability concerns. He will say which way the current's flowing if it's
definite and remind boats that the rule used to be that those going with the
current got through first -- but that he has no authority as a traffic cop;
he just opens and closes the bridge. Most times, we work it out with the
boats on the other side beforehand.
Nice guy at Kent: he seems to remember us from past encounters though we pass
through only 3-4 times a year. 'Course, we always give him a cheery "Thanks"
when our mast is clear, sometimes chat a bit while waiting, and Pat's pretty
easy on the eyes. I think it annoys him if he's away from the radio for some
reason and some yahoo keeps yelling for him even though the schedule hasn't
changed for years. C'mon guys: all it takes is a quick "Could we take the
next opening?" a few minutes before the scheduled time. Half the time, you'd
hear the schedule if you turned the radio to 13 just 15 minutes before you
hit the bridge....
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux -- '73 Tanzer 28 #4 -- out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's Pics & Specs: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI Vacation trip FAQ (250+ Annotated pics):
http://members.dca.net/jerelull/BVI.html
HLAviation
>a ship (bridge to bridge). I find it unnecessary if both vessels are
>following the ROTR. This is not to say that you shouldn't, if in doubt.
>
>It could become a communications nightmare on the bridge of a commercial
>ship if every small craft in the area called up and ask about the ships
>intentions.
>
>If the ship is in the traffic lane, then it should be obvious where they are
>going and how the small craft should deal with the situation.
>
Most areas with heavy commercial traffic also have a VTS (usually on ch 12,
sometimes others though). If you set one of you VHFs to the VTS, you can
monitor the movements of vessels. Generally when a pilot checks into the
system VTS will tell him about all the movements in the area, who they are,
where they are going, what route they are taking, and often their speed. You
are not banished from using this service either if you are coming into a
situation of doubt. If you see someone coming down on you and you want to call
them but don't know who to call, you can call VTS, briefly identify yourself,
give your position (They probably have you on radar and possibly video) and ask
who is the ship located at (give position, or their position reletive to you)
and they will tell you Unit 14 or whoever and they'll give you his working
frequency if he's working tugs. If you were paying attention to the VTS
broadcasts and communications, you already know who he is and can hail him on
the VTS freq and switch to another or if it's short (I'll make your 1 before
you get here) you can just say it there. Normally if you just listen, you'll
know what everyone is doing. If you you start monitoring 1/2-1 hr before you
hit the lanes, you'll never get surprised and can plan your movements and
possitions accordingly.
A pilot never minds a professional call from a recreational boat.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Jim Donohue
relatively short dead end feed to the Port of Galveston.
The approach to Glaveston appears to be a classic pilot port entry with no
apparent separation. Do they really pay you to run ships? My My
And oh - you really should read what you said one more time...
Jim - who has crossed the Houston Ship Channel
"HLAviation" <hlavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010702141721...@ng-ff1.aol.com...
Evan Gatehouse & Diane Selkirk
Steve <est...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:tk3r9ur...@corp.supernews.com...
> In the 35+ years of pleasure boating, I have yet to find a need to speak
to
> a ship (bridge to bridge). I find it unnecessary if both vessels are
> following the ROTR. This is not to say that you shouldn't, if in doubt.
>
> It could become a communications nightmare on the bridge of a commercial
> ship if every small craft in the area called up and ask about the ships
> intentions.
My favorite is calling a freighter on an offshore passage and asking if they
can see you. The usual response is "wait a sec until I check the radar" or
"wait until the radar warms up..."
--
Evan Gatehouse
HLAviation
>can see you. The usual response is "wait a sec until I check the radar" or
>"wait until the radar warms up..."
>
Back in the day before cheap gps and such, calling up a freigter with an Omega
set was the prime way of getting an accurate fix after a cloudy week.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
dave
Thursday, July 5, 2001
Bathroom break causes boat accident
VANCOUVER -- A tugboat captain who accidentally left his vessel in gear
when he took a five-minute bathroom break is being blamed for a
collision between a barge and a family's pleasure boat.
Keith Elliot, 70, of Clatskanie, Ore., took a break about 4 a.m. on June
25. The gravel barge his tug was pushing drifted out of the shipping
channel and into a pleasure boat moored at a public pier on Government
Island.
A family of five was aboard the boat. The father, Michael Randolf of
Battle Ground, was awake and checking on his children before the barge
struck. He hustled his wife and three children onto the dock, and no one
was injured.
The boat was damaged but didn't take on water, said Deputy Mike
Heffernan of the Multnomah County Sheriff's River Patrol.
Elliot was cited for failure to maintain a lookout and leaving the scene
of a boat accident. A deckhand also was on the boat, but wasn't cited.
Elliot works for Brusco Tug and Barge of Longview.
A full assessment of damage to the pier has not been conducted. Oregon
state officials expect the barge company's insurer to pay for repairs.
The U.S. Coast Guard is investigating.
© 1998-2001 Seattle Post-Intelligencer