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Before you buy.
>I just bought my first boat and there was no
>batteries that came with it. This is a 1985
>Bayliner cruiser with a force 125 HP outboard
>motor. The guy I bought the boat from said I
>could just use any old car battery instead of
>buying a "boat" battery for much more. Is this
>true? I can get a car battery for so much
>cheaper so hopefully it is.
>
There are several issues involved...
First, you can use a car battery. It will start your engine. But they are
not designed for the ride. As a kid, I used them in my first boats, I
don't anymore.
Boat batteries come in several varieties, but all should have cases that
are stronger to keep from cracking under the pounding that all boats get
from time to time. Also, car batteries are starting batteries, they are
designed to put out a max current for a short time. Boat batteries come in
starting, starting/deep discharge, and deep discharge.
Starting batteries are just heavy case batteries with the same
characteristics as car batteries (I am assuming a standard flooded battery
here, there are also gel batteries that can be turned upside down without
leaking and can be better for deep discharge applications). The most
relevant being that they are not made to be discharged more than a little
bit, they will last a *lot* longer if kept fully charged all the time.
If you plan to anchor and use a lot of electricity for lights, radios, etc,
for a long time (long slow discharge), you will ruin a starting battery
quickly.
The combination start/deep discharge batteries are hybrids that are
reasonably good for starting, and can stand regular discharge (of up to
about 40% without severly shortening the life).
Deep discharge batteries can stand a slow 50% discharge regularly and a
somewhat deeper discharge ocassionally and will still last a long time
(about 500 cycles), but they are not designed for starting loads.
Given this, you need to decide... (chances are a marine starting battery is
the best for a pleasure boat that usualy has the motor on and may use the
radio and lights for an hour or two, now and then). Otherwise a
starting/deep discharge might be right if you use the lights for a long
time at night. If you do use a lot of juice, consider two batteries and a
battery switch (remember you just spent a chunk on the boat, yes it hurts
to spend more right now, I know, I just bought a used boat last week, my
9th, and the checkbook is bleeding, but setting it up right the first time
will be safer and increase your enjoyment, and probably be cheaper in the
long run, and maybe even the short run)
Whatever you get, make sure that the battery lives in a good battery box
(the plastic ones from the marine store are fine, they resist battery acid)
and that the battery is tied down and can't go flying around in rough
situations, batteries are HEAVY!
Since this is your first boat, I'd highly recommend a safe boating course
from the US Power Squadron or the Coast Guard Auxilary. The nautical rules
of the road are not the same as the ones on the highway, and you can't
always pull over and park to think it over...
Also please make sure that the fuel system is safe and doesn't leak, that
there are life jackets for all passengers, that your flares and fire
extinguishers are correct in number and size and are up-to-date, check the
horn. Make sure that the running lights all work before going out at night
(better yet, make sure that they are good in case you end up out at night)
Also invest in the marine radio that is most useful in your area (VHF
almost everywhere, CB on some inland lakes, a cellphone is not sufficient).
Welcome to boating! Have a happy and safe time!
Steve
As far as size goes, the best deal for total amp hours at minimum cost
is a pair of 6V golf cart batteries wired in series but you need to
figure out the available space, the size of your alternator and about
how many amp hours you will be using for lights, radios and other
accessories between charges to make an informed decission.
These are just the real basics. If you want to know more, I suggest
"Living on 12 Volts" by David Smead or "The 12V Bible for Boats" by
Miner Brotherton for the full run down.
sig...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I just bought my first boat and there was no
> batteries that came with it. This is a 1985
> Bayliner cruiser with a force 125 HP outboard
> motor. The guy I bought the boat from said I
> could just use any old car battery instead of
> buying a "boat" battery for much more. Is this
> true? I can get a car battery for so much
> cheaper so hopefully it is.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore
P.S. It's doubful that you outboard's alternator could fully charge a high amp
hour deep discharge battery anyway.
However, a high quality marine starting battery will have stronger plates, a
stronger case, and oddly enough more room in the bottom of the case for
sulfates to fall. This cannot be ignored, since when those inevitable
sulfates finally reach the bottom of the plates......short-city. Bye bye
battery. Slightly more in first cost as usual, but much longer life for the
high quality marine battery.
I do agree that a deep cell battery needs to be supported by a good, high
output alternator and monitor system. This fellow probably should determine
his needs before he takes such a step.
Also consider the new sort of mixed use battery sold by West Marine and
others as possibly appropriate for your power boating needs. This
combination sort will handle some small prolonged loads liked that blender
or CD player somewhat better than a plain starter battery will. A
reasonable cost.
As one who sells Rolls Deep Cell batteries, I can't believe I'm recommending
these . but your probable load and daytime use is what recommends them.
skennedy
Sinewave Marine Electric
Bbbl4873 <bbbl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000607174015...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
sig...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I just bought my first boat and there was no
> batteries that came with it. This is a 1985
> Bayliner cruiser with a force 125 HP outboard
> motor.
Take a look at the battery cables. If they end in a normal,
automotive style clamp, then you can use any old battery.
If they end in a large ring terminal, then you will either have to use
a marine battery (which as screw terminals on top) or you will have to
replace the battery cables.
Don't worry, a marine battery is not necessarily expensive. It will
be expensive if you buy it from the marine store, but you don't have to
buy it there. Sears, CostCo, K-Mart, Wallmart, etc. will all sell a
marine battery for essentially the same price as the equivalent
automotive battery.
You may be presented with a choice of "starting", "deep cycle" or
"starting/deep cycle". Unless you plan on sitting out overnight running
lights or something, then you will be better off with the "starting"
battery. For your sized motor, just about anything should work OK.
Rod McInnis
> Take a look at the battery cables. If they end in a normal,
> automotive style clamp, then you can use any old battery.
> If they end in a large ring terminal, then you will either have
> to use a marine battery (which as screw terminals on top) or you
> will have to replace the battery cables.
Or, buy those terminals which clamp on to the "any old battery"
and provide the screw terminals to which the marine cables can be
attached. About $3 at Sears if I recall.
-- -- Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
Ted Edwards
Well I can't speak for the difference between a "marine" battery and a car
battery, but I can tell you about the time I was purchasing some silicone caulk
in a hardware store. On the same shelf were two rows, one marked "Household
silicone caulk" and the other marked "Marine silicone caulk." Both were clear
and manufactured by GE. Looking over all the information on both tubes, the
only difference I could find was that the "Marine" variety had nice blue waves
printed around the top and the price was double that of the "Household"
variety.
Perhaps you should just stay at home then.
DANGER HERE!
CHEAP "marine" batteries are the SAME battery as car batteries with a
different label. Please be careful of Sams Club, or Costco, or Sears, or
Exide INEXPENSIVE "marine" batteries.
As for others..."marine" prices aside...You still get largely what you pay
for. Good qulaity marine batteries ar indeed far better suited to boat use
than auto batteries. West Mar. actually has a couple of very good actual
marine batteries, from quality builders, at reasonable prices. I'm not a
particular gel cell fan, but theirs are as good as anybodies.
A quality Trojan golf cart battery (or the like) is an excellent choice.
A premier quality Rolls/Surrette deep cell marine battery will most likely
NEVER need to be replaced.
It's your choice, but saying "bullshit" while lacking the information is
unwise.
skennedy
Sinewave Marine
> ***********************************************************************
> Do your algebra homework at http://www.algebra.com
> Solve: x^2+4x+3=0 Plot: y=3*sin(x^2) Factor: x^4-1 Post problems
> http://www.algebra.com
> ***********************************************************************
>
>
Especially to those who have not been to sea (as in heavy salt water)
and seen how quickly the stuff from Home Depot disintegrates.
If you're just putzing around lakes and rivers you probably don't need
to understand or buy "marine" gear.
--
DAVe
You can purchase a Group 24 marine-grade starting battery from Sam's
Club for about $40.00; a Group 27 (larger) battery is about $50.00. I
use 3 group 27s on my 29' cruiser. This is pretty inexpensive; the
prices haven't kept up with inflation over the last 20 years. I think
it's worth a few extra bucks.
I never used to like "maintenance free" batteries because I like to be
able to check the charge and water levels. But the batteries in my boat
are buried in the stern corners and they're very hard to get to; so
suddenly, I see the wisdom of "maintenance free".
sig...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I just bought my first boat and there was no
> batteries that came with it. This is a 1985
> Bayliner cruiser with a force 125 HP outboard
Elaine
There is actually no such thing as maintenance free batteries. It's rather
like the proverbial free lunch. Most "maintenance free" types are simply
regular wet cell types which are semi-sealed, and which (possibly) contain a
little more liquid electrolyte than the same size of unsealed types. The
assumption is that all will be fine (unless they are over charged) and so
the battery will continue to function well for 3 or four years until the
electrolyte has dissipated to the point that the battery then dies. Designed
disposability. On boats, unlike cars, as you say, physical abuse is more
prevalent. Also, however charging regimes vary much more dramatically on
boats. Given the ideal.."maintenance free" will do ok, sort of. But...if
they are overcharged significantly you're in for trouble. All liquid
batteries "maint. free" or otherwise can and will overheat and vent that
nasty hydrogen gas. It matters not at all that they are sealed they will
vent or explode just like any liquid type, possibly worse, What is
different is that they are just harder to add water to...What you
ask?....Ask any battery guy, if he/she would top off his own "maintenance
free" wet cells. Absolutely, It will last longer if kept topped off. I also
feel strongly that if you're going to have liquid electrolyte batteries, you
should be able to check each cell. In the name of brevity, we'll just skip
the discussion of thermal runaway.
None of the above really apply to gell cells or AGM batteries. Which given
proper charging system are much more appropriate for the "stuff 'em in the
box and ignore 'em" application you've suggested.
skennedy
Sinewave Marine
: None of the above really apply to gell cells or AGM batteries. Which given
: proper charging system are much more appropriate for the "stuff 'em in the
: box and ignore 'em" application you've suggested.
Steve, do you have any views regarding Nickel-Cadmium batteries, or the real
"fit and forget" Nickel-Iron" (NiFe) batteries?
Geoff
--
Geoff Blake geoff (at) palaemon . co . uk linux 2.0.36
Chelmsford g8gnz @ g8gnz . ampr . org sparc - i586
Please, only use the .ampr.org address if you know what you are doing
Intel create faster processors - Microsoft create slower processes
Geoff
Nope, sorry. I'm sort of a pragmatic kinda guy. You can't normally get
hold of such thing, and if you could they'd usually be used and/or very cost
prohibitive. I must also admit to ignorance as to the charging
characteristics involved.
I'd love to see battery technology take some giant leaps forward, but like
the rest of the world...will not hold my breath. Witness the disasters
attending the development of the LiI battery. Burning batteries, exploding
lap tops, etc. They certainly however, appear to have worked it out. I'm
absolutely thrilled with the performance the Lithium cell in my ham radio
ht. No "memory", no particular charging difficulties, fast charging...it's
great. I'd love to see such technology on a boat-sized scale. Very hard to
imagine that happening soon however. There's probably a lot more talent and
money going into fuel cell research than large scale battery research...even
given the auto industries need for such a product. Their research seems to
be headed into higher VOLTAGE auto systems rather than higher battery
CURRENT.
There is in no way enough market in the Marine Battery field to motivate ANY
research. Our (boaters) only hope is to tag along on the developments made
for another field..i.e. the AGM battery used in aircraft and military
vehicles.
skennedy
Well, there is a difference.
There are two methods of curing out silicone...acetic acid, and ammonia.
The silicone that uses acetic acid is corrosive to some metals, and
therefore not 'marine grade'.
The ammonia in the 'marine grade' as doubles as an inhaler for those who
faint from the price.
Steven Kennedy wrote:
> There is actually no such thing as maintenance free batteries. It's rather
> like the proverbial free lunch. Most "maintenance free" types are simply
> regular wet cell types which are semi-sealed, and which (possibly) contain a
> little more liquid electrolyte than the same size of unsealed types.
They are a little more sophisticated than that. The "maintenance
free" batteries have breather caps that are built a little different
than other batteries. The caps contain a catalyst element that
encourages the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine back into water and drip
back into the cell.
They work OK, unless the rate at which the gas in generated overwhelms
the catalyst and then it escapes, which results in water loss. If you
can remove the caps, then you can always add water so it is no loss.
Some batteries, however, make the caps non removable, so if you lose any
water your battery is toast.
If you don't deep cycle the battery, then the maintenance free
batteries can work pretty good. For my cabin batteries, however, I much
prefer caps I can remove and add water when necessary.
Rod McInnis
Yes.. Me too. Big, giant, deep cell, Rolls batteries will conceivably out
last the boat.>
Putzing DAVe?? What a smarmy response.
The brand was Exide and the model label said "E-3600". I inquired and was
told that they are for golf cart and other heavy use applications. Price is
$45 each wholesale to my business. I remember he said the ah was 215, but
the other numbers I missed.
What is the reputation of Exide in marine applications, and would these be a
reasonable choice for me, a sailor that overnites and weekends now and
again.
I would set up the 2 six volts together as bank 2 and split the current 2
twelve volt 24's into a separate house batt 1 and a dedicated engine start
battery???
Anyway, the question is what is the reputation of EXIDE batteries. A visit
to their website and other distributer sites does not list a "E-3600" model.
Dave Doolin
Steven Kennedy <sken...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gxS%4.29653$2X2.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Igor <ig...@Algebra.Com> wrote in message
> news:slrn8jvrl...@manifold.algebra.com...
> > Cndl24 <cnd...@aol.comblockall> wrote:
> > * Well I can't speak for the difference between a "marine" battery and a
> car
> > * battery, but I can tell you about the time I was purchasing some
> silicone caulk
> > * in a hardware store. On the same shelf were two rows, one marked
> "Household
> > * silicone caulk" and the other marked "Marine silicone caulk." Both
were
> clear
> > * and manufactured by GE. Looking over all the information on both
tubes,
> the
> > * only difference I could find was that the "Marine" variety had nice
blue
> waves
> > * printed around the top and the price was double that of the
"Household"
> > * variety.
> >
> > Much of the "marine" stuff is bullshit.
> >
Rick
To quote a Trojan employee, "... building wet cell batteries is a very
mature business, it doesn't require rocket science."
Exide has been building wet cell batteries a very long time, they have
probably figured out how to do it.
HTH
Lew
S/A: Challenge (Under Construction, the hull is turned in the
Southland)
Visit:<http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> For Pictures
There are no problems, only varying degrees of challenging
opportunity.
ddave
The Exide name is a very large one. They are high volume producers of many
different types of battery sold under a variety of names. Think that big S
one. Their big name does not necessarily connotate quality, and they are
regarded by those in the field as sort of the ford escort of batteries.
Their battery chargers are very poorly regarded. Exide batteries are
inexpensive but are not known for lasting particularly well. Replacing
batteries more often still does not provide the best solution as it costs
more than the benefits of first cost savings.
Golf cart batteries in general, however CAN absolutely provide an excellent
ratio of Dollars to Amp hours to battery life, Chuck Hawley of West Marine
had a table at one time that showed this relationship for each of the
battery types. I'll see if I can dig it up. GC batteries are also smaller
individual packages, making installation easier. The long term financial, as
well as security benefits, ignoring high first cost (hard to do) are still
found by The expensive but apparently eternal Rolls/Surrette batteries or
the like.
I've found Trojan GC type batteries, used extensively in golf carts,
electric cars as well as fork lifts to be a quality product for much the
same price.
skennedy
*it sank
*it was removed from water within 24 hours
*it had a sears marine diehard battery(1000 CC) connected to the
system.
*that day it was removed , washed with hose, put on trickle charger
for days
and then stored in garage
*battery was removed from storage about 5 months later and put on
trickle
charge for 3-4 days while replenishing water as needed.
*observed it was still under warranty.....So, took it back for a
load test,etc
by Sears...
*Test Results...battery is normal !
And this is a true story....
Oh... the boat bayliner 83' 19 foot cuddy with 4 cyl volvo
freshwater engine was donated later to charity...All True.
What caused the boat to sink?
What happened to the flotation in the boat that is supposed to prevent it from
sinking?
--
Harry Krause