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Re: Water in the tank. Why did the engine run at all ?
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Wilbur Hubbard
May 18, 2012, 1:01:51 PM5/18/12
to
"barret bondon" <sup...@networks-cc.com> wrote in message
news:4fb677cf$0$14786$607e...@cv.net...
> Why did the engine run at all ?
> Atomic 4 in a 1977 27 foot Columbia. Boat had sat all last summer.
> Engine started and ran fine for half an hour, got us 200 yards outside
> the breakwater ( not a rough sea, but more motion than in the harbor)
> where it quit. I pulled a fuel line; lots of water in the gas.
> Q: Why did it work at all ? Assuming the fuel/ water mix homogenized
> out of the harbor and got drawn into the pump doesn't tell me how to
> prevent this on the next boat. Where is the intake on most tanks ?
> Water sinks to the bottom of course, and I assume the intake is at the
> bottom of most tanks; in that case I never would have left the dock.
>
> (not my boat, BTW !)
>
Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that built-in
tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain valve
to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation or
water in the fuel from dubious sources.
In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter in
the intake line and check and drain it frequently. Your theory of
'frothing' or mixing is probably why the motor ran OK for a while but when
things got a little rougher the engine quit because enough water got into
the carburetor so fill the float bowl.
Wilbur Hubbard
news:4fb677cf$0$14786$607e...@cv.net...
> Why did the engine run at all ?
> Atomic 4 in a 1977 27 foot Columbia. Boat had sat all last summer.
> Engine started and ran fine for half an hour, got us 200 yards outside
> the breakwater ( not a rough sea, but more motion than in the harbor)
> where it quit. I pulled a fuel line; lots of water in the gas.
> Q: Why did it work at all ? Assuming the fuel/ water mix homogenized
> out of the harbor and got drawn into the pump doesn't tell me how to
> prevent this on the next boat. Where is the intake on most tanks ?
> Water sinks to the bottom of course, and I assume the intake is at the
> bottom of most tanks; in that case I never would have left the dock.
>
> (not my boat, BTW !)
>
Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that built-in
tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain valve
to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation or
water in the fuel from dubious sources.
In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter in
the intake line and check and drain it frequently. Your theory of
'frothing' or mixing is probably why the motor ran OK for a while but when
things got a little rougher the engine quit because enough water got into
the carburetor so fill the float bowl.
Wilbur Hubbard
Wayne.B
May 18, 2012, 3:17:06 PM5/18/12
to
On Fri, 18 May 2012 13:01:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
<wilbur...@thefarm.invalid> wrote:
>Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that built-in
>tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain valve
>to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation or
>water in the fuel from dubious sources.
>
Water in fuel tanks is a common problem but ABYC and USCG standards,
<wilbur...@thefarm.invalid> wrote:
>Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that built-in
>tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain valve
>to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation or
>water in the fuel from dubious sources.
>
not to mention your insurance company, require that gasoline be drawn
from the top of the tank with a dip tube and no sump drains are
allowed. The risk of gasoline leaking into the bilge is too high.
>In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter in
>the intake line and check and drain it frequently.
engine, the filter is not allowed to have a drain fitting.
Chances are that the engine initially ran OK because the water level
in the tank was below the dip tube pickup. Dip tubes never go all
the way to the bottom. As the boat moved around while underway,
water got picked up as the fuel sloshed around.
Detecting and getting rid of water in the bottom of a permanently
installed gasoline tank is difficult because no sump drain is allowed.
If your fill pipe goes straight down into the tank from the cockpit
you can put water sensing paste on the end of a stick and dip it to
the bottom. If the paste turns color, usually red or purple, you have
water on the bottom. The only way to remove it is with a plastic
tube and small transfer pump.
Google search: gasoline water sensing paste
<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=gasoline%20water%20s&cp=28&gs_id=32&xhr=t&q=gasoline+water+sensing+paste&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=gasoline+water+sensing+paste&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ca5e4e80e08f4ec0&biw=1015&bih=612>
Anonymous
May 18, 2012, 5:04:05 PM5/18/12
to
Nellie has water on the brain and no balls.
http://losenotloose.com/887ta
Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546
http://losenotloose.com/887ta
Neal D. Warren/Wilbur Hubbard/Gregory Hall
PO Box 1015
Tavernier, FL 33070
305 304-7546
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Wilbur Hubbard
May 19, 2012, 2:38:51 PM5/19/12
to
"Bruce" <brucein...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95ier7lg55argead7...@4ax.com...
> throughout the system, at least back to the tank. You start the engine
> and it begins to use fuel and eventually it begins to draw fuel from
> the tank. Except that it isn't fuel, it is water - water being heavier
> then fuel collects in the bottom of the tank where the fuel line inlet
> is located. When this water from the tank reaches the carburetor or
> injection pump, as the case may be, and the carbie or injectors start
> to deliver water to the engine the engine quits.
>
> Finally water does not mix with gasoline or diesel fuel in any
> significant manner. Try it, put some fuel and water in a mayonnaise
> jar and shake it up. as soon as you stop shaking the water settles out
> of the fuel.
>
> And before someone corrects me, yes, it is possible for fuel and water
> to form an emulsion, but not by pouring water into a fuel tank.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce
Hey, I'm amazed, Bruce. This is perhaps the very first time I have noted
you contributing something that made sense.
I still would have a sump and a drain valve in any internal tank on my
yacht (if I had fuel tanks in the yacht.) It's so dumb to NOT have them
just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little fuel
into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the valve
with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc. This is a case where insurance companies
can impose their will on sailors and boat builders because of catering to
the lowest common denominator dummy who would allow fuel to leak into the
bilge because he was too stupid to close and secure a simple valve.
Wilbur Hubbard
news:95ier7lg55argead7...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:20:08 -0400, WaIIy <WaIIy@(nft).invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 18 May 2012 13:01:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
>><wilbur...@thefarm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>
>>On Fri, 18 May 2012 13:01:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
>><wilbur...@thefarm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>"barret bondon" <sup...@networks-cc.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4fb677cf$0$14786$607e...@cv.net...
>>>> Why did the engine run at all ?
>>>> Atomic 4 in a 1977 27 foot Columbia. Boat had sat all last summer.
>>>> Engine started and ran fine for half an hour, got us 200 yards
>>>> outside
>>>> the breakwater ( not a rough sea, but more motion than in the harbor)
>>>> where it quit. I pulled a fuel line; lots of water in the gas.
>>>> Q: Why did it work at all ? Assuming the fuel/ water mix homogenized
>>>> out of the harbor and got drawn into the pump doesn't tell me how to
>>>> prevent this on the next boat. Where is the intake on most tanks ?
>>>> Water sinks to the bottom of course, and I assume the intake is at
>>>> the
>>>> bottom of most tanks; in that case I never would have left the dock.
>>>>
>>>> (not my boat, BTW !)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that
>>>built-in
>>>tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain
>>>valve
>>>to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation
>>>or
>>>water in the fuel from dubious sources.
>>
>>It's a gas tank, not a water heater.
>>>news:4fb677cf$0$14786$607e...@cv.net...
>>>> Why did the engine run at all ?
>>>> Atomic 4 in a 1977 27 foot Columbia. Boat had sat all last summer.
>>>> Engine started and ran fine for half an hour, got us 200 yards
>>>> outside
>>>> the breakwater ( not a rough sea, but more motion than in the harbor)
>>>> where it quit. I pulled a fuel line; lots of water in the gas.
>>>> Q: Why did it work at all ? Assuming the fuel/ water mix homogenized
>>>> out of the harbor and got drawn into the pump doesn't tell me how to
>>>> prevent this on the next boat. Where is the intake on most tanks ?
>>>> Water sinks to the bottom of course, and I assume the intake is at
>>>> the
>>>> bottom of most tanks; in that case I never would have left the dock.
>>>>
>>>> (not my boat, BTW !)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that
>>>built-in
>>>tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain
>>>valve
>>>to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation
>>>or
>>>water in the fuel from dubious sources.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter
>>>in
>>>the intake line and check and drain it frequently. Your theory of
>>>'frothing' or mixing is probably why the motor ran OK for a while but
>>>when
>>>things got a little rougher the engine quit because enough water got
>>>into
>>>the carburetor so fill the float bowl.
>>>
>>>Wilbur Hubbard
>
> This is not an uncommon happening at all. You have an engine with fuel
>>
>>>
>>>In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter
>>>in
>>>the intake line and check and drain it frequently. Your theory of
>>>'frothing' or mixing is probably why the motor ran OK for a while but
>>>when
>>>things got a little rougher the engine quit because enough water got
>>>into
>>>the carburetor so fill the float bowl.
>>>
>>>Wilbur Hubbard
>
> throughout the system, at least back to the tank. You start the engine
> and it begins to use fuel and eventually it begins to draw fuel from
> the tank. Except that it isn't fuel, it is water - water being heavier
> then fuel collects in the bottom of the tank where the fuel line inlet
> is located. When this water from the tank reaches the carburetor or
> injection pump, as the case may be, and the carbie or injectors start
> to deliver water to the engine the engine quits.
>
> Finally water does not mix with gasoline or diesel fuel in any
> significant manner. Try it, put some fuel and water in a mayonnaise
> jar and shake it up. as soon as you stop shaking the water settles out
> of the fuel.
>
> And before someone corrects me, yes, it is possible for fuel and water
> to form an emulsion, but not by pouring water into a fuel tank.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce
Hey, I'm amazed, Bruce. This is perhaps the very first time I have noted
you contributing something that made sense.
I still would have a sump and a drain valve in any internal tank on my
yacht (if I had fuel tanks in the yacht.) It's so dumb to NOT have them
just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little fuel
into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the valve
with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc. This is a case where insurance companies
can impose their will on sailors and boat builders because of catering to
the lowest common denominator dummy who would allow fuel to leak into the
bilge because he was too stupid to close and secure a simple valve.
Wilbur Hubbard
Wayne.B
May 19, 2012, 3:25:54 PM5/19/12
to
On Sat, 19 May 2012 14:38:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
<wilbur...@thefarm.invalid> wrote:
> It's so dumb to NOT have them
>just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little fuel
>into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the valve
>with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc.
===
<wilbur...@thefarm.invalid> wrote:
> It's so dumb to NOT have them
>just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little fuel
>into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the valve
>with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc.
I've seen perfectly good valves develop slow, and sometimes not so
slow leaks. Have you ever seen a gasoline fire or explosion on a
boat? I've seen 3 and they are very spectacular. The risk of *any*
gasoline at all in the bilge is way too high.
Wilbur Hubbard
May 19, 2012, 4:04:26 PM5/19/12
to
"Wayne.B" <waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kmsfr7t0jsijbolmn...@4ax.com...
A high quality ball valve rated for gasoline does not leak. An example:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/119571631/CIM_Brass_Full_Port_Ball_Valve.html
Simply stated, it is STUPID to have an installed fuel tank that you cannot
get water out of. The simple expedient of a sump built into the bottom of
the tank with a proper fuel ball valve which is easily accessible for
draining of water will eliminate all sorts of problems.
For example, one can get into a whole lot of trouble having an engine quit
at just the wrong time. Such an outage could even result in the loss of
the vessel and lives to boot. I think the risk of gasoline fire from a
properly fitted fuel tank drain valve is too small to worry about compared
to the consequences of not having one.
And, yes, I have seen two or three vessels catch on fire and burn. It's
pretty spectacular. But, in both cases they were diesel boats. Both had
propane tanks venting spectacular gouts of flame and eventual explosions.
Wilbur Hubbard
news:kmsfr7t0jsijbolmn...@4ax.com...
http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/119571631/CIM_Brass_Full_Port_Ball_Valve.html
Simply stated, it is STUPID to have an installed fuel tank that you cannot
get water out of. The simple expedient of a sump built into the bottom of
the tank with a proper fuel ball valve which is easily accessible for
draining of water will eliminate all sorts of problems.
For example, one can get into a whole lot of trouble having an engine quit
at just the wrong time. Such an outage could even result in the loss of
the vessel and lives to boot. I think the risk of gasoline fire from a
properly fitted fuel tank drain valve is too small to worry about compared
to the consequences of not having one.
And, yes, I have seen two or three vessels catch on fire and burn. It's
pretty spectacular. But, in both cases they were diesel boats. Both had
propane tanks venting spectacular gouts of flame and eventual explosions.
Wilbur Hubbard
Vic Smith
May 19, 2012, 5:33:39 PM5/19/12
to
On Sat, 19 May 2012 16:04:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
Whatever you think, CG regs should be followed regarding gas.
Besides, you're looking at it the wrong way.
If you get a dose of water in the tank, all the drain valves in the
world won't help you out of trouble quickly.
Maybe just get you blown up.
The answer is high and low tank pickups, or a second tank.
Which could be small and better protected from water intrusion.
I don't have a boat and don't know the regs on fuel systems.
But I did operate boilers and fuel systems on Navy and merchant
vessels.
High and low fuel pickups and alternative tanks were the answer
to quickly recovering from a dose of water.
Works well.
Removing the water is an entirely different issue.
--
Vic
Besides, you're looking at it the wrong way.
If you get a dose of water in the tank, all the drain valves in the
world won't help you out of trouble quickly.
Maybe just get you blown up.
The answer is high and low tank pickups, or a second tank.
Which could be small and better protected from water intrusion.
I don't have a boat and don't know the regs on fuel systems.
But I did operate boilers and fuel systems on Navy and merchant
vessels.
High and low fuel pickups and alternative tanks were the answer
to quickly recovering from a dose of water.
Works well.
Removing the water is an entirely different issue.
--
Vic
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Wayne.B
May 19, 2012, 10:24:45 PM5/19/12
to
On Sun, 20 May 2012 07:06:06 +0700, Bruce <brucein...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>But this does not disguise the fact that you obviously have limited
>experience with boats, particularly sail boats which often have built
>in tanks, usually deep in the bilges (to aid stability) which, being
>the lowest things in the boat, preclude the use of "drain valves".
===
Wilbur uses an outboard motor thus reducing his tank complexity to the
bare minimum. :-)
wrote:
>But this does not disguise the fact that you obviously have limited
>experience with boats, particularly sail boats which often have built
>in tanks, usually deep in the bilges (to aid stability) which, being
>the lowest things in the boat, preclude the use of "drain valves".
===
Wilbur uses an outboard motor thus reducing his tank complexity to the
bare minimum. :-)
Bruce
May 20, 2012, 8:05:37 AM5/20/12
to
--
Cheers,
Bruce
Fritz Wuehler
May 20, 2012, 10:22:42 AM5/20/12
to
This moron Horvath is even dumber than shit-for-brain Warren.
Capt. LIMP DICK has water on the brain and he can't leak.
Capt. LIMP DICK has water on the brain and he can't leak.
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