Newbie wants to learn sailing
Sniffallo T. Pudsnorter
anyone provide me with some sound advice on finding a reputable and
good instructor/organization? I've always had a dream to learn sailing
and I really want to pursue this zealously. Thanks for any help.
--
Regards,
John W
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jpwvoymar
the glossy sailing magazines and check out the "instruction" section of the
classified. Have fun and remember that the gods do not take from man's allotted
time those hours spent sailing...Cheers. Cap'n Jon
Green Alien
comments/tips/suggestions!'
1) Ask around your local area, at marinas and yacht clubs, who/where is
recommended as a teacher/school.
2) If you can't already sail a dinghy, start by doing a week's dinghy
sailing practical course. This will give you a very good appreciation of
the 'mechanisms' of sailing that it's much harder to pick up on a larger
boat - and it should be good fun as well.
3) If you then want to try a larger boat, such as a cruising yacht, then
you are again advised to do a couple of weeks at a good cruising school.
Your first week should teach you to be a good useful crew member, who can
rig the boat, sail it through 360 degrees and safely moor it. You should
also cover emergency drills including coping with an onboard fire, and 'man
overboard'including emergency radio procedures.
Your second week should cover basic passage making including passage
planning.
4) It's a good idea to learn some coastal navigation skills as soon as you
can. You may find some evening or correspondence classes to help with this,
or do a week or two's intensive course at a sea school.
5) Once you've got this lot under your belt, it's time to start scouring
the notice boards at your local yacht clubs for those 'crew wanted'
notices. There always seem to be more boatowners than available crew, so
you shouldn't find it too hard to get some interesting rides. Try and sail
in as many different types of boat as you possibly can - they're all
different - before deciding to commit yourself to an expensive purchase!
Cheers...John.
m cannell
I hate to disagree with the dinghy bit, but most people will pick up the
rudiments of sailing much faster in a bigger boat where intrinsic stability
removes a sense of fear in the student. Also things happen more slowly so that
it is easy to learn how and why a sail luffs etc. IMHO Dinghies simply respond
too fast for newbies to get the picture of the interaction of wind with sails
etc.
(By the way, his view is supported by many excellent sailing schools here)
My 2c
MC
RichardJHe
Coast Guard Auxillary courses which are typically inexpensive ( i.e. the cost
of books and materials) and are usually taught by experienced mariners in local
settings.
The Basic Sailing and Seamanship is a good precursor to on the water
instruction and will serve to identify those things that most novice sailors
may not consider such as types of craft, nomenclature, rules of the road, and
marlinspike seamanship,etc.
You also get to meet other interested people who can provide motivation and
support without "breaking the bank"
You also might get a break on your insurance premium when you buy a boat.
It also doesn't hurt to learn how much you don't know about a simple wonderful
activity that has the potential to be dangerous without proper training.
Richard J. Heagle
S/V Escape
David McMullen
http://www.bwss.com/
I've taken two sailing courses from them and recommend them highly.
ssterns
>
> I hate to disagree with the dinghy bit, but most people will pick up the
> rudiments of sailing much faster in a bigger boat where intrinsic stability
> removes a sense of fear in the student. Also things happen more slowly so that
> it is easy to learn how and why a sail luffs etc. IMHO Dinghies simply respond
> too fast for newbies to get the picture of the interaction of wind with sails
> etc.
Dinghy sailing is certainly a great way for kids to learn, and while you
might be right about adults learning better on a bigger boat, it depends
on what you mean by "bigger". Generally, I wouldn't advocate a beginner
starting out on anything much over 20 ft., and smaller than that might
be better. It also depends on what water one'd be learning on. On
protected coastal waters where there isn't much chop or significant wave
action, small is fine.
The point on learning on a smaller boat is that it's generally simpler
and easier to handle so the student can concentrate on, say, the
mechanics of sail trim rather than the mechanics of using a winch. The
fewer lines and gadgets, the better. Once the fundamentals of
boathandling are mastered, one can move up to learning to sail larger
boats if that's what you want.
While I love coastal cruising, some of the most fun to be had under sail
I've had on Lightnings and Ensigns or even a Sunfish!
> (By the way, his view is supported by many excellent sailing schools here)
Againk, depends on what they're using as "bigger" boats. If they're
teaching beginners on boats over 20 ft, I'd look for another school.
Cheers.
>
Mark Sienkiewicz
ssterns <sst...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>The point on learning on a smaller boat is that it's generally simpler
>and easier to handle so the student can concentrate on, say, the
>mechanics of sail trim rather than the mechanics of using a winch. The
>fewer lines and gadgets, the better. Once the fundamentals of
>boathandling are mastered, one can move up to learning to sail larger
>boats if that's what you want.
Don't underestimate the value of stability. In a dinghy with a
centerboard, you can substitute "mechanics of weight distribution"
for "mechanics of using a winch".
Something in the 20-25 foot range with a ballasted keel is good
for learning on. It has enough of the stability of a large boat,
without the physical effort you might have on a 35 or 40 foot boat.
Most beginners are uncomfortable about the boat heeling. It gives
them a great deal of confidence to be told "You couldn't capsize
this boat even if you try, so don't worry about it".
(No, they don't mean that it impossible to capsize - just that a
beginner in normal weather for lessons won't have a problem.)
Paul Kamen
m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>I hate to disagree with the dinghy bit, but most people will pick
>up the rudiments of sailing much faster in a bigger boat where
>intrinsic stability removes a sense of fear in the student. Also
>things happen more slowly so that it is easy to learn how and why a
>sail luffs etc. IMHO Dinghies simply respond too fast for newbies to
>get the picture of the interaction of wind with sails etc.
This is so far off base that it reads like a troll. Yes it's true that
you can't learn much when you're scared, but small boat does not = fear.
However, fear = bad instructor, in any size boat.
Beyond that, *everything* works in favor of the small boat for "picking up
the rudiments," as you say. Every sailing school or charter operation that
advocates using larger boats for primary instruction has a financial
interest in doing it that way (or they have students who are physically
incapacitated to some degree).
--
fish...@netcom.com
http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html
-"Call me Fishmeal"-
NOSPA...@notnow.com
> In article <380698ED...@auckland.ac.nz>,
>
> m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> >I hate to disagree with the dinghy bit, but most people will pick
> >up the rudiments of sailing much faster in a bigger boat where
> >intrinsic stability removes a sense of fear in the student. Also
> >things happen more slowly so that it is easy to learn how and why a
> >sail luffs etc. IMHO Dinghies simply respond too fast for newbies to
> >get the picture of the interaction of wind with sails etc.
>
>This is so far off base that it reads like a troll. Yes it's true that
>you can't learn much when you're scared, but small boat does not = fear.
>However, fear = bad instructor, in any size boat.
Wow... I don't agree. The main problem with learning in
dinghy's as can be testified to by my wife is that they
can and will capsize. If you have a keelboat, even a
small one it allows otherwise nervous students to
focus on the skills and forces behind sailing. Once they
get confidence, as my wife did, they can become very
confident and agressive sailors. I don't think the sentiment
posted was that far off base if you open your mind up a
little bit.
-thaw-
Douglas King
> Most beginners are uncomfortable about the boat heeling. It gives
> them a great deal of confidence to be told "You couldn't capsize
> this boat even if you try, so don't worry about it".
Far preferable for them to learn to deal effectively with capsizes, and
get over their fear of heeling by gaining the confidence to deal with it
in a worst-case scenario.
That way, the person not only learns to sail on a physical level of
hand-eye coordination, balance, and reflexes, which is impossible to
learn in a big stable boat; but they also learn how to cope with small
boat mishaps. Since a large number of cruising accidents happen in and
around dinghies, it seems like a very good idea.
There are some people who never get over their fear of heeling. They
usually make poor sailors anyway.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
--
This is what we look like when we're at our best:
http://freehosting.at.webjump.com/ei/eisboch-webjump/45.htm
Sniffallo T. Pudsnorter
research ahead, but I now have some good places to begin.
--
Regards,
John W.
m cannell
Joshua Slocum were not real sailors -as they never learnt to sail 'properly'.
The fact is that if you really want to learn to 'efficiently and capably propel
and maneuver the boat in the widest range of conditions and situations using
the forces of wind and water on the boat and her rig' you'll have to get out of
a dinghy and do some time in a big yacht. A dinghy is a fine vehicle for
learning some asp[ects of sailing but for introducing a person to sail a
keelboat is much easier. Surely you must accept that a dinghy is no different
than a big yacht when it comes to sailing efficiently. Finally, the 'widest
range of conditions' is not simply experienced by dinghies!
You should try to understand that many people do not like capsizing and such
experiences can put them off sailing for life (regardless of the skill of an
instructor). Anyone who knows anything about teaching knows that the
environment is critically important to the speed of learning. Being cold and
wet in a dinghy or being afraid of the boat or sail falling on top of you while
under water does not help! Just because you race a dinghy does not make you a
good sailor or instructor.
MC (FYI -I have sailed dinghies, windsurfers and yachts but I was never in the
Navy so I guess I can't sail. I'll make a prediction here: Young Australia is
crewed and skippered by dinghy sailors and I'll bet they lose big time in the
Louis Vitton!)
Douglas King wrote:
> Paul Kamen wrote:
> >
> > >th...@notnow.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Wow... I don't agree. The main problem with learning in
> > >dinghy's as can be testified to by my wife is that they
> > >can and will capsize...
> >
> > Why is this a problem? Again, fear = bad instructor, in any size boat. A
> > good instructor will either remove the fear of capsize (sometimes by
> > practicing it) or keep things tame enough so there's virtually no fear.
>
> And since a capsize or some other form of dunking is almost a certainty
> if you fool around in boats, big or little, to assuage this fear by
> getting aboard the Titanic is really not productive.
>
> > >I don't think the sentiment posted was that far off base if you
> > >open your mind up a little bit.
> >
> > Well, I've taught many people to sail in keelboats, and many more to sail
> > in dingies. Can't tell from where I sit whether my mind is "open" or
> > "closed," but I sure have lots of data to go on.
>
> Ditto. People learn to SAIL (and by "sail" I mean the ability to
> efficiently and capably propel and maneuver the boat in the widest range
> of conditions and situations using the forces of wind and water on the
> boat and her rig; which is not a critical skill for "cruising") much
> better in small boats. They learn faster, too.
>
> The only people who advocate "learning to sail" in big boats are the
> ones who never really learned themselves, and don't know what they're
> missing; or the sailing schools who have an economic interst in the
> economies of scale tha bigger boats provide.
>
> Note- the US Navy produces the finest big-boat sailors in the world, and
> they start out learning to handle Lasers.
Douglas King
>
> What a silly bunch of statements. I suppose that according to you, Cook or
> Joshua Slocum were not real sailors -as they never learnt to sail 'properly'.
Well, actually they both did. Cook and Slocum spent a good deal of time
in their varied careers in small boats.
> The fact is that if you really want to learn to 'efficiently and capably propel
> and maneuver the boat in the widest range of conditions and situations using
> the forces of wind and water on the boat and her rig' you'll have to get out of
> a dinghy and do some time in a big yacht.
What a silly statement.
> .... A dinghy is a fine vehicle for
> learning some asp[ects of sailing but for introducing a person to sail a
> keelboat is much easier. Surely you must accept that a dinghy is no different
> than a big yacht when it comes to sailing efficiently. Finally, the 'widest
> range of conditions' is not simply experienced by dinghies!
Not true. How many times does a "big yacht" encounter waves whose height
equals 1/2 her waterline? Happens all the time in a dinghy. Sailing a
dinghy (and I mean a class dinghy, one designed for sailing, not a
tender) in twenty-five knots of wind is the best way to get accustomed
to handling a bigger boat in worse conditions.
> You should try to understand that many people do not like capsizing and such
> experiences can put them off sailing for life (regardless of the skill of an
> instructor).
Those "many people do not like capsizing" should either take up golf, or
admit to themselves that "sailing" involves the water, including the
possibility of being in it. If one cannot competently handle a small
boat, including both the prevention of and the correction of capsizes,
then one is not a competent "sailor."
Note- this skill is not entirely necessary (but it is highly desirable
IMHO) to cruise in big yachts. And it is also true that there are many
skills not learned from dinghy sailing which are necessary for
successful cruising- provisioning, for example...
> .... Just because you race a dinghy does not make you a
> good sailor or instructor.
Agreed.
> MC (FYI -I have sailed dinghies, windsurfers and yachts but I was never in the
> Navy so I guess I can't sail. I'll make a prediction here: Young Australia is
> crewed and skippered by dinghy sailors and I'll bet they lose big time in the
> Louis Vitton!)
Actually, every single skipper in the America's Cup field has proven his
mettle in racing dinghies. Please check your facts.
Mark Sienkiewicz
>> learning some asp[ects of sailing but for introducing a person to sail a
>> keelboat is much easier. Surely you must accept that a dinghy is no different
>> than a big yacht when it comes to sailing efficiently. Finally, the 'widest
>> range of conditions' is not simply experienced by dinghies!
>
>Not true. How many times does a "big yacht" encounter waves whose height
>equals 1/2 her waterline? Happens all the time in a dinghy. Sailing a
>dinghy (and I mean a class dinghy, one designed for sailing, not a
>tender) in twenty-five knots of wind is the best way to get accustomed
>to handling a bigger boat in worse conditions.
You're missing the point. All that can come later. Your first
lesson should not cover heavy weather sailing -- it starts with
simple things, like how to get in the boat without falling in the
water.
If you take a beginner out for a lession in a 30 foot boat in
conditions where there are 15 foot waves, you are being grossly
irresponsible. That is not going to be a useful learning situation.
>> You should try to understand that many people do not like capsizing and such
>> experiences can put them off sailing for life (regardless of the skill of an
>> instructor).
>
>Those "many people do not like capsizing" should either take up golf, or
>admit to themselves that "sailing" involves the water, including the
>possibility of being in it. If one cannot competently handle a small
>boat, including both the prevention of and the correction of capsizes,
>then one is not a competent "sailor."
First you crawl, then you walk, then you run.
When you learned to sail, what did you do first? Capsize the boat
and learn to recover it, or did you learn how to raise the sails?
I suggest that if you capsized the boat before you got the sails
up, your instructor had a poor lesson plan.
Obviously the people we're talking about are not "competent sailors".
That's why we call them "beginners" and that's why they're taking
lessons.
I think is is quite unreasonable of you to expect that everybody
who sails should LIKE getting dumped out of the boat. Yes, sailing
involves the possibility of being in the water, but we learn to
PREVENT that and to treat it as an emergency when it does happen.
I see no reason for beginners to learn in a boat where that emergency
is substantially more likely to occur.
Douglas King
> You're missing the point.
Oh?
> If you take a beginner out for a lession in a 30 foot boat in
> conditions where there are 15 foot waves, you are being grossly
> irresponsible. That is not going to be a useful learning situation.
Agreed. With the caveat that it depends on the "beginner." For a student
who knows the ropes, but wants heavy-weather experience, it might be
just the ticket. The same holds true of small boats. I would not send
folks out for a first-day lesson in 25-knot winds and six-foot waves.
However, once they've got the basics, they'd probably have fun once they
got out there. And it would be less inherently dangerous and potential
wreckage far less expensive, as well as helping them develop reflexes
which will help them cope with that 30-footer in 15-foot waves....
> First you crawl, then you walk, then you run.
Again, I agree.
> When you learned to sail, what did you do first? Capsize the boat
> and learn to recover it, or did you learn how to raise the sails?
> I suggest that if you capsized the boat before you got the sails
> up, your instructor had a poor lesson plan.
Actually I spent a long time just learning the names of things and what
to NOT do (I was a little kid). I was a racing crew for years before I
was ever allowed to hold a tiller. My own learning experiences were not
ideal, far from it.
> Obviously the people we're talking about are not "competent sailors".
> That's why we call them "beginners" and that's why they're taking
> lessons.
Agreed.
> I think is is quite unreasonable of you to expect that everybody
> who sails should LIKE getting dumped out of the boat.
I don't expect that at all. Do you always attempt to win a debate by
postulating an absurd statement, and falsely attributing it to those
with whom you disagree?
> ... Yes, sailing
> involves the possibility of being in the water, but we learn to
> PREVENT that and to treat it as an emergency when it does happen.
> I see no reason for beginners to learn in a boat where that emergency
> is substantially more likely to occur.
Well, if you have never gotten it through your head that capsizing is
NOT an emergency, then it's probably too late for you to re-learn some
basic attitudes. The whole idea that "going in the water" = "emergency"
in your mind suggests that you should take up a different sport. Most of
the people I have taught to sail are not pathologically afraid of the
water.
Some were afraid of heeling and of capsizing. When presented with this
fear, I simply stated that it was not a problem and gave the student a
reason to have confidence in my statement. In a few cases demonstrating
a capsize, with the students on the dock watching me, right then on the
spot. In other cases we did capsize drills in shallow warm water on
windless days. Obviously learning some other basics come first, but if a
student is afraid then he must get over it before further learning can
take place.
One of the problems of "learning to sail in a big boat" is that even on
big boats, you have dinghys and tenders and floating docks, etc etc. It
cannot be avoided, even though people try ("get an inflatable- they are
so much more stable"). I suggest that all cruisers would be better off
learning the skills to cope with the basics, rather than trying to
circumvent nature. In other words, learning to crawl before trying to
run!
Anders Svensson
If I want to learn to ride a motorcycle, would it make sense to learn on a
bicycle first?
Seriously, there are many individuals who have learned to sail on big boats
only. But it is likely that they either don't know how to sail really well
or that they had a much harder time to learn than those starting in
responsive, small boats.
The key word is "responsive" as small boats signal right or wrong handling
much more clearly.
"Sailing" should perhaps also be differentiated from "handling a big
(sail)boat", wich is a related but different skill.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Anders Svensson
Anders.-.Ei...@swipnet.se
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jordan Bigel
>
> >Wow... I don't agree. The main problem with learning in
> >dinghy's as can be testified to by my wife is that they
> >can and will capsize...
>
Paul Kamen wrote:
>Why is this a problem? Again, fear = bad instructor, in any size boat. A
>good instructor will either remove the fear of capsize (sometimes by
>practicing it) or keep things tame enough so there's virtually no fear.
>
Well, this may dispense with the fear but lose the student!
Some people just DO NOT want to practice capsizing! ROFL!
I can't even get my wife in the water for a MOB drill on a warm
sunny day with no swell running - how am I supposed to get her
to VOLUNTARILY capsize the dinghy!! And no, she is not
afraid, she just doesn't want to get WET!
J.
Rob F.
<doug...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
>Agreed. With the caveat that it depends on the "beginner." For a student
>who knows the ropes, but wants heavy-weather experience, it might be
>just the ticket. The same holds true of small boats. I would not send
>folks out for a first-day lesson in 25-knot winds and six-foot waves.
>However, once they've got the basics, they'd probably have fun once they
>got out there. And it would be less inherently dangerous and potential
>wreckage far less expensive, as well as helping them develop reflexes
>which will help them cope with that 30-footer in 15-foot waves....
>
<snip>
>Actually I spent a long time just learning the names of things and what
>to NOT do (I was a little kid). I was a racing crew for years before I
>was ever allowed to hold a tiller. My own learning experiences were not
>ideal, far from it.
>
<snip some more..>
Doug, You are right on, including the snipped bits below.... I learned
as a child too, and it's really quite simple. Step by step:
1) Learn the terminology! Forward, backward, and sideways! This is the
toughest part, and the most important! After nearly 30 years of
sailing, I still pick up on some new things, mostly "go-fast"
controls, but if you don't know the difference between a halyard and a
topping lift, you're not going to be a good sailor. Crew, skipper or
otherwise.
2) Learn to apply the terminology and develop skills like knot tying
and using cleats, blocks, and lines.
3) Learn to sail on an unballasted dinghy! That's the 'only' way to
learn to react 'quickly' to wind and water! Keelboats work in slow
motion in comparison. Forgiving yes, but not as good for teaching! You
don't see 10 year old kids hopping on a J-30 to learn to sail. You see
them on Optimists or Sunfish! Yes, when you make a big mistake, you
can get wet! So what?
4) Practice! Knowledge dispels fear. Fear of capsizing, of big waves,
rising winds, and everything else! Fear is nothing more than lack of
knowledge or familiarity with your surroundings. You don't have to
want to capsize a dinghy, but you do have to learn what to do when it
happens. With that knowledge, you can push the envelope, while
'preventing' capsize.
That's all there is to it! Not too hard is it?
Rob F.
s/v Naiad
Lake Grapevine, TX
Jeff Morris
better to learn on a smaller boat! Most people will learn much faster
on a small boat than a large one. The issue is how small is small?
An old rule of thumb for boat ownership is one foot for each year of
age.
I spent six years instructing in Interclub dinghies, one of the least
stable boats ever designed. Overwhelming majority of my students
continued sailing on their own after about three hours instruction,
which often included a capsize. However, the average age was about 19.
Somewhere in the early twenties, many people discover the concept of
mortality, and it becomes very difficult to learn in a tiny boat. For
these people, I would switch to a Rhodes 19, or a Soling. I'd have to
admit that a centerboard dink is not suitable for many people or
locations, but a small keel boat seems ideal. Yes, you can learn the
concepts in a large boat, but one hour at the tiller of a small boat is
worth 10 at the wheel of a large one!
In Boston, where a lot of sailors are trained, the breakdown is this:
Community Sailing (the grand-daddy of such programs) trains in a fleet
of about 50 centerboard 15-foot Mercury's (on the protected Charles
River); the various colleges (MIT, Harvard, BU) train in 12 foot dinks
on the river; Courageous Sailing Center in Charleston and another in
East Boston use fleets of Rhodes 19 in the harbor. Several more
upscale harbor clubs have fleets of Solings and Pearson 26's, and
smaller J's. Frankly I've never seen a program that trains beginners
in boats larger than Solings.
For my own part, I'm grateful I learned on all manner of small craft;
even though I've been cruising larger boats for the last twenty years,
the majority of my time at the helm has been on boats 15 feet or less.
I remember one incident where an anchorage turned into a nasty lee
shore at 3AM and we had to sail off the anchor in 30 knots. After
catching our breath, we reflected on how this was not too different
from games of "chicken" we played every day in dinghies, but a large
boat sailor might only do it once in ten years!
-jeff
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Terry Schell
Jeff Morris wrote:
>
> This is one of the more absurd threads I've seen lately! Of course is
> better to learn on a smaller boat! Most people will learn much faster
> on a small boat than a large one. The issue is how small is small?
> An old rule of thumb for boat ownership is one foot for each year of
> age.
<snip>
I am not sure I buy this particular rule of thumb... but I buy the
concept. You will learn fastest and cheapest if you use the smallest,
lightest boat you feel *comfortable* in. For some people, this may be a
fairly large boat.
Because of this, I wish someone would make a cheap training boat that
came with a selection of centerboards for various types of sailors.
Start with a basic 16', relatively narrow, high performance dingy.
Select an unballasted centerboard for the young and daring or a
ballasted board for those who need to be told their boat will
self-right. As people get more comfortable with the boat, you can
transition people to the unballasted version.
ssterns
> Don't underestimate the value of stability. In a dinghy with a
> centerboard, you can substitute "mechanics of weight distribution"
> for "mechanics of using a winch".
I'm not trying to discount the value of stability, and I'm not
necessarily advocating that beginners should always learn on dinghies,
but if they do, they'll likely get a much better grounding in sailing
fundamentals than they can on a larger (more than 20 ft.) boats.
> Most beginners are uncomfortable about the boat heeling. It gives
> them a great deal of confidence to be told "You couldn't capsize
> this boat even if you try, so don't worry about it".
And sailing schools make lots of money by offering just this kind of
reassurance. My point isn't that one can't learn on a bigger boat, but
that one learns better on a smaller boat. As for being uncomfortable
about the boat heeling, isn't that part of learning to sail?
Cheers.
JeffMorris
<m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> Herman
> Can we agree here -It is an emergency until you know that it is
> not? I'm assuming the capsize was unexpected...
I'm not sure what you mean by this - I once calculated that I capsized
200 times while instructing, but I don't recall a single such capsize
that was an "emergency" or seemed dangerous, even to the students.
I do recall many capsizes in heavy weather racing, in complex racing
dinks that could have been serious, if the racers were not experienced
in this facet of sailing.
I would agree that for some people, capsizing could be a traumatic
event; for them, a keel boat would be a better trainer.
m cannell
According to my reading neither Slocum or Cook spent any time sailing dinghies, they
learnt on keel boats! Am I wrong here?
I think we're not quite touching the same base here. You take the hard line on
sailing which does not allow for people who are nervous to begin with. Many people do
not want to sail wet in little boats, they have the dream of sailing to far off
exotic places and deep blue ocean. I suggest that for most poeple a day's sailing in
a keel boat will keep that dream alive and if they cannot afford to learn on a big
yacht then dinghies are fine. You see I don't believe that extracting the last 1% (or
so) of performance from a yacht makes you a 'good' sailor (this is only inportant
when racing). I think a good sailor is someone who can get into boat and sail it
competently and safely. As far as performance goes, I don't believe that there's
anything that you can learn in a dinghy that you can't also learn in a racing
keelboat like a Soling, Dragon or Eschel (etc).
I hope that you will accept that 'real sailing' may also involve sailing at night,
passage planning, victualling, navigation etc. and not just sailing at 100%
performance for an afternoon. I guess that what I am saying is that there is a large
percentage of pople who want to sail but whom are not interested in dinghy sailing.
These are not second class sailors but they have different targets than you. I object
to such rigid ideas about how to learn. I really believe that people like Penny
Whiting are right, they get more people sailing and continuing to sail than most
dinghy instructors because they make sailing easy and fun, and that's the key. I
suggest that your capsize drills do not engender confidence in everyone and may even
put people off sailing -if even one person has been put off then your approach is
faulty.
As an aside, when I learnt to dive it was very difficult. Not only did you have to be
a great swimmer but you had to pass large numbers of physically demanding tests. Few
women could pass such physical tests (ever tried swimming with 7kg lead around your
waist or towing a diver 400 m in the open sea while giving mouth to nose
resucitation??). As a result few women dived and I think that was a shame. I think
your dinghy apprentice mentality is very much in the same line (i.e. that's how I
learnt so thats what you need to do too).
Things have now changed for the better and now it is much easier -schools
concentrate on promoting the joy of diving and so more people dive now. I'm not
saying these people are 'great' divers but they are mostly competant and that is the
point. Drop the macho bit and get on with fostering what it is that people dream of.
(I suggest that most do not dream of sailing a dinghy when they first entertain the
idea of learning to sail...). If they want to race dinghies that that's great and all
the best to them but please don't promote the idea that you can only learn to sail
'properly' in a dinghy -Cook didn't and neither did Slocum!
Finally, I also suggest that there are large numbers of people who are learning to
sail who have some problem that prevents them from sailing dinghies or enjoying it.
Are you really suggesting that these people will never learn to sail properly because
they can't sail a dinghy? If the ocean yacht master certificate is the highest
qualification that a sailor can aspire to, why does this not include sailing
dinghies? Do you have this qualification? If not, is it because it holds no relevance
for your enjoyment of sailing? If this is so, then why do you make statements like
'you can't learnt to sail properly unless you learn in dinghies'? To be take your
line of reasoning I would state that you cannot be a real sailor because you do not
understand celestial navigation?!?
With respect, MC
Douglas King wrote:
> m cannell wrote:
> >
> > What a silly bunch of statements. I suppose that according to you, Cook or
> > Joshua Slocum were not real sailors -as they never learnt to sail 'properly'.
>
> Well, actually they both did. Cook and Slocum spent a good deal of time
> in their varied careers in small boats.
Yes, small keel boats?
>
> > The fact is that if you really want to learn to 'efficiently and capably propel
> > and maneuver the boat in the widest range of conditions and situations using
> > the forces of wind and water on the boat and her rig' you'll have to get out of
> > a dinghy and do some time in a big yacht.
>
> What a silly statement.
Yes I agree, I was using your line of argument/reasoning.
>
>
> > .... A dinghy is a fine vehicle for
> > learning some asp[ects of sailing but for introducing a person to sail a
> > keelboat is much easier. Surely you must accept that a dinghy is no different
> > than a big yacht when it comes to sailing efficiently. Finally, the 'widest
> > range of conditions' is not simply experienced by dinghies!
>
> Not true. How many times does a "big yacht" encounter waves whose height
> equals 1/2 her waterline? Happens all the time in a dinghy. Sailing a
> dinghy (and I mean a class dinghy, one designed for sailing, not a
> tender) in twenty-five knots of wind is the best way to get accustomed
> to handling a bigger boat in worse conditions.
This is nonsense. When was the last time you put a reef in or sailed your 14' dinghy
in 7' waves!
> > You should try to understand that many people do not like capsizing and such
> > experiences can put them off sailing for life (regardless of the skill of an
> > instructor).
>
> Those "many people do not like capsizing" should either take up golf, or
> admit to themselves that "sailing" involves the water, including the
> possibility of being in it. If one cannot competently handle a small
> boat, including both the prevention of and the correction of capsizes,
> then one is not a competent "sailor."
So to be a competent sailor you have to do capsize drills? This is absurd!
m cannell
> > ... Yes, sailing
> > involves the possibility of being in the water, but we learn to
> > PREVENT that and to treat it as an emergency when it does happen.
> > I see no reason for beginners to learn in a boat where that emergency
> > is substantially more likely to occur.
>
> Well, if you have never gotten it through your head that capsizing is
> NOT an emergency, then it's probably too late for you to re-learn some
> basic attitudes. The whole idea that "going in the water" = "emergency"
> in your mind suggests that you should take up a different sport. Most of
> the people I have taught to sail are not pathologically afraid of the
> water.
>
For goodness sake, a capsize is an emergency situation. Your crew is in the
water, possibly trapped in rope or injured etc. and you think this is
OK?????? Until you know that everything is OK and the boat is up and sailing
again with the crew on board the emergency situation exists. You are
obviously very macho but I think your 'basic attitude' needs some adjusting
...
MC
m cannell
I was trying to get the idea across that dinghies are not always the best
option. I'm glad you included Solings etc.
MC
<snip>
> Somewhere in the early twenties, many people discover the concept of
> mortality, and it becomes very difficult to learn in a tiny boat. For
> these people, I would switch to a Rhodes 19, or a Soling. I'd have to
> admit that a centerboard dink is not suitable for many people or
> locations, but a small keel boat seems ideal.
<snip>
Oz Sailor
tought properly an emergency only exists if a crew member is not accounted
for, then only until they are above water, or the conditions are such that
the crew cannot right the craft. Then maybe the should not have gone sailing
in the first place.
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:380BA203...@auckland.ac.nz...
Oz Sailor
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
ssterns <sst...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:380BB1...@compuserve.com...
> they'll likely get a much better grounding in sailing
> fundamentals than they can on a larger (more than 20 ft.) boats.
> My point isn't that one can't learn on a bigger boat, but
Oz Sailor
are ever going to sail one be themselves.
there are a new set of skill to relearn, much easier to go from small to big
then big to small, from the experience of a small boat instructor/examiner
AYF.
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:380BA605...@auckland.ac.nz...
m cannell
Can we agree here -It is an emergency until you know that it is not? I'm
assuming the capsize was unexpected...
MC
Oz Sailor wrote:
> A capsize is NOT an emergency, it is infact normal part of teaching. If
> tought properly an emergency only exists if a crew member is not accounted
> for, then only until they are above water, or the conditions are such that
> the crew cannot right the craft. Then maybe the should not have gone sailing
> in the first place.
>
> --
> OZ Sailor
> Herman Stakenburg
>
> m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote in message
NOSPA...@notnow.com
>3) Learn to sail on an unballasted dinghy! That's the 'only' way to
>learn to react 'quickly' to wind and water!
unmitigated BS.
This is great for some people but ignores the example
of my wife as all the pro-dingy group has done so
far in this thread. The idea that you have to learn in
a dingy to understand sailing is absurd.
My wife, as I mentioned learned in a 21' keelboat (and then
a Soling and then a J24) . They are pretty responsive boats
in the wind we get around here! She, with the confidence
that she didn't have to worry about being dunked for every initial
mistake, was able to spend time "soaking" in the concepts of sailing.
She has taken two heavy weather sailing classes, is
quite agressive and skilled in her manuevers now, singlehands,
and we've seen sailing in heavier seas and winds than
lake dingy racers would know what to do with.
Simply put, for many people basic small keelboat sailing is
the best way to start. Constantly pushing yourself
after that is the key to becoming a skilled seaman.
-thaw-
PS> Now starting in a BIG boat is a different story.
Oz Sailor
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
>
Oz Sailor
can not see or hear the crew then it could be an emergency. One shound have
a routine worked out before a situation an unexpected capsize arises so that
each crew member knows where they are expected to be and do.
By doing these drills an emergency is unlikely to arise and if it does on
panic will set in to agrevate the situation.
again I say a capsize is in itself not an emergency.
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:380BB56A...@auckland.ac.nz...
Paul Kamen
>
>...The whole idea that "going in the water" = "emergency"
>in your mind suggests that you should take up a different
But I think we do have to acknowledge the fact that some people,
especially older people who are no longer particularly fit, are simply not
interested in taking lessons in a boat that has any chance at all of
capsizing.
It's a mistake to try to whitewash the effects of their limitations and
tell them that they're learning jsut as much, just as fast, and just as
well by starting in big boats. But it's also a mistake to send them away.
Ideally, they should be tracked into fast light keelboats - Wylie Wabbit,
Sonar, even Rhodes 19 would work fine. I just hate to see people starting
out in boats big enough to need winches, inboard engines, and even wheel
steering - because in most cases they are missing a big part of the
appreciation of the art, and all too often they end up as motorsailors.
Paul Kamen
Mark Sienkiewicz <ma...@chokey.mo.md.us> wrote:
>When you learned to sail, what did you do first? Capsize the boat
>and learn to recover it, or did you learn how to raise the sails?
>I suggest that if you capsized the boat before you got the sails
>up, your instructor had a poor lesson plan.
Disagree. Some of the best schools start out with a capsize, first thing.
Oz Sailor
parents were still sailing competitively in Herons in their late 60's early
70's but then again they also took up cross-country skying at 75 and kept
that up for 5-6 years.
The point about learning better in small boats still stands, even you agree
that they miss out on so many things if they start in a boat with winches
and wheel steering, with both of these devices there is limited feed back to
help understand the effects of sail trim, Balance, and boat trim.
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
Paul Kamen <fish...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7uhbdh$5ed$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
Paul Kamen
> An old rule of thumb for boat ownership is one foot for each year of
> age.
It's a good rule for estimating the best size boat to own, not the best
size boat to learn on. Attributed to L.F. Herreshoff, or at least
repeated by him.
And don't forget the corollary, practiced religiously by several women I
knew at my Sailing Club: Any man with a boat longer than his age is worth
dating!
Paul Kamen
>...Many people do not want to sail wet in little boats, they have
>the dream of sailing to far off exotic places and deep blue
>ocean...
It's a dream all right, if they think that sailing in the ocean isn't
going to be wet. I'm talking inside of the sleeping bag here.
Seriously, if someone doesn't want to get wet while learning to sail,
that's fine. They shouldn't be made to think that they haven't missed
something important, though.
Oz Sailor
and how nervous the Pupils were, if it were safe to perform the capsize
first day I would do so especially with nervous pupils! A controlled capsize
and recovery had the effect of calming them down as they no longer feared
the unknown, they then knew that if something went wrong they could right
the craft. This first capsize usually only tipped the boat over not all the
way upside down (That came later).
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
Paul Kamen <fish...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7uhbq0$1un$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> Mark Sienkiewicz <ma...@chokey.mo.md.us> wrote:
>
> >When you learned to sail, what did you do first? Capsize the boat
> >and learn to recover it, or did you learn how to raise the sails?
> >I suggest that if you capsized the boat before you got the sails
> >up, your instructor had a poor lesson plan.
>
> Disagree. Some of the best schools start out with a capsize, first thing.
>
Oz Sailor
m cannell <m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:380B9E4F...@auckland.ac.nz...
What makes you think that these people are not going to be just as nervous
(and a danger to themselves) when they are out sailing and the conditions
change and they are faced with a 3-4 meter swell.The one thing that small
boat can teach that larger boats MAY not be able (or at least not as well)
is the responsiveness to changes in different sail settings, boat trim and
balance. Being able to extract the most out of a boat can make the
difference of being caught out in a storm and being able to make it to a
safe harbour.My definition of a GOOD SAILOR is a confident (not over
confident) sailor who knows the limitations of His/Her: boat; Crew and their
own ability, and does not INTENTIONALLY sail beyond them so as to endanger
anyone.
victualling, navigation etc. and not just sailing at 100%
> performance for an afternoon. I guess that what I am saying is that there
is a large
> percentage of people who want to sail but whom are not interested in
dinghy sailing.
> These are not second class sailors but they have different targets than
you. I object
> to such rigid ideas about how to learn. I really believe that people like
Penny
> Whiting are right, they get more people sailing and continuing to sail
than most
> dinghy instructors because they make sailing easy and fun, and that's the
key. I
> suggest that your capsize drills do not engender confidence in everyone
and may even
> put people off sailing -if even one person has been put off then your
approach is
> faulty.
Many people don't like capsizing because of the fear of the Unknown, I agree
that an unskilled instructor who capsizes nervous pupils early in their
lessons can put them off. This has never happened to me, by clearly showing
your intentions and controlling both the capsize and recovery, I and my
instructors have successfully allayed the fear of capsize in many a novice
sailor to the point where young sailors want to continue the drill, the
point of is that every thing in the early lessons MUST be controlled.All
lesson plans MUST be flexible and there must be the correct ratio of pupils
to instructors. Having said all that there was occasions when the first
lesson was given on a Keel boat (Due in part to the fact I did not have the
right ratio staff to pupils) But this was the exception more than the rule.
There were other times when the pupil was at the helm of a row boat to learn
how the steering of a boat worked, you can not learn that on a boat with a
wheel.Just like your fear of capsize can not be gotten over without
confronting it with a capsize.
I agree that lessons must have a ellement of FUN FUN AND MORE FUN that is
why they need to be flexible. As for the Yachtmaster being the Higheast
qualification that I can aspire to (I am currently an AYF Sailing Master)
that wis correct if I want to continue in Blue Water sailing where my
current qualification go quite some way toward this, the exception is
Navigation, Radio and Fire Drill (Not needed on a dingy) them experience in
both day and night sailing out in the wild blue yonder.
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
>
Terry Schell
m cannell wrote:
>
<snip>
> For goodness sake, a capsize is an emergency situation. Your crew is in the
> water, possibly trapped in rope or injured etc. and you think this is
> OK?????? Until you know that everything is OK and the boat is up and sailing
> again with the crew on board the emergency situation exists. You are
> obviously very macho but I think your 'basic attitude' needs some adjusting
>
<snip>
Is this supposed to be flame bait? For an unballasted sailboat a
capsize is *not* an emergency. It is a routine occurance in most
dingies.
Most sailing programs *practice* capsize and recovery as part of the
educational experience.
Rob F.
<m.ca...@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>> <snip>
>
>> > ... Yes, sailing
>> > involves the possibility of being in the water, but we learn to
>> > PREVENT that and to treat it as an emergency when it does happen.
>> > I see no reason for beginners to learn in a boat where that emergency
>> > is substantially more likely to occur.
>>
>> Well, if you have never gotten it through your head that capsizing is
>> NOT an emergency, then it's probably too late for you to re-learn some
>> basic attitudes. The whole idea that "going in the water" = "emergency"
>> in your mind suggests that you should take up a different sport. Most of
>> the people I have taught to sail are not pathologically afraid of the
>> water.
>>
>
>For goodness sake, a capsize is an emergency situation. Your crew is in the
>water, possibly trapped in rope or injured etc. and you think this is
>OK?????? Until you know that everything is OK and the boat is up and sailing
>again with the crew on board the emergency situation exists. You are
>obviously very macho but I think your 'basic attitude' needs some adjusting
>...
>
>MC
>
A capsize CAN be an emergency! Not IS an emergency!
Rob F.
There's really nothing unmitigated, nor BS about it. You are correct
that you 'can' learn to sail in just such a matter, especially if
you're afraid of water. Why someone afraid of getting into the water
would 'want' to sail is another discussion.
When I learned to sail, I never capsized until I was required to do
so, on purpose. Any capsizes afer that were because I pushed the boat
extremely hard. And with the right boat, and the right knowledge, you
don't even have to get in the water to recover! If you don't have the
right boat, don't push it so hard.
I'll concede though, that when I said keelboats, I was thinking
"heavy" keelboats. A J-24 to me is a logical progression 'from' dinghy
sailing though. Learning in a dinghy will make one a 'better' sailor.
There's no doubt in my mind about that.
I've taken heavy weather classes too! Like getting caught in a 40 - 50
knot squall in an Albacore! That was a learning experience! And yes,
we capsized, as we gybed around the breakwater into the harbor where
our trailer was. We recovered well and sailed the boat the rest of the
way in. Wet and tired, but healthy and with new knowledge of what our
little boat could do. I'll grant that if it weren't a regatta, we
would not have been out in our boat, but we were, and yes, we knew
what to do with it!
And I'll agree that a small keelboat is a way to learn to sail! I
never said it wasn't. I expressed my opinion that learning in a dinghy
is the 'best' way to learn! Ask any America's Cup skipper, or
Whitbread crew.
Douglas King
>
> >3) Learn to sail on an unballasted dinghy! That's the 'only' way to
> >learn to react 'quickly' to wind and water!
NOSPA...@notnow.com wrote:>
> unmitigated BS.
Umm, no. In fact, among racers it is an unquestioned axiom that small
tippy boats train better sailors. Do you think that an I-14 skipper is
going to be challenged by an Express 37? Or a J-anything?
> This is great for some people but ignores the example
> of my wife as all the pro-dingy group has done so
> far in this thread. The idea that you have to learn in
> a dingy to understand sailing is absurd.
I never said anything of the kind, actually. Are you just being
argumentative 'cuz it's a slow day?
> My wife, as I mentioned learned in a 21' keelboat (and then
> a Soling and then a J24) . They are pretty responsive boats
> in the wind we get around here! She, with the confidence
> that she didn't have to worry about being dunked for every initial
> mistake, was able to spend time "soaking" in the concepts of sailing.
well, a Soling or a J-24 would be a better learners boat than, say, a
Rainbow... or a Cape Dory 30.
> She has taken two heavy weather sailing classes, is
> quite agressive and skilled in her manuevers now, singlehands,
> and we've seen sailing in heavier seas and winds than
> lake dingy racers would know what to do with.
Umm, don't strain your arm patting yourself on the back. When you have
sailed a 470 in 45-knot winds, report back to me ;)
> Simply put, for many people basic small keelboat sailing is
> the best way to start.
Substitute "some" or "a few" for "many" in the above sentence and I'd
agree, with the caveat that they'd learn even faster and better in a
420- and they will quickly get over their neuroses about capsizing,
heeling, and getting wet. Of course, in many climates (such as Alaska),
getting wet *is* a big problem and for these cases a responsive keelboat
probably is better.
> .... Constantly pushing yourself
> after that is the key to becoming a skilled seaman.
Agreed.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
--
This is what we look like when we're at our best:
http://freehosting.at.webjump.com/ei/eisboch-webjump/45.htm
Douglas King
> According to my reading neither Slocum or Cook spent any time sailing dinghies, they
> learnt on keel boats! Am I wrong here?
I suppose that depends on how you define "dinghies" and for that matter,
"keelboats." Both men spent a great deal of time, especially early in
their careers, handling small unballasted boats. Cook surveyed
Newfoundland using a big rowboat with (IIRC) dipping lug sails. No
ballast keel, and they capsized and swamped it many times in the course
of their operations. Slocum wrote about lightering off beaches in
yawlboats. Both men proved that their mastery included all the skills of
handling small tippy boats.
> I think we're not quite touching the same base here. You take the hard line on
> sailing which does not allow for people who are nervous to begin with.
Sorry that you think I'm taking a "hard line." I am not trying to
condemn anybody elses practices, just point out what is obvious to me
(and a lot of other sailors apparently).
> .... Many people do
> not want to sail wet in little boats, they have the dream of sailing to far off
> exotic places and deep blue ocean.
Well, you gotta start somewhere.
> .... You see I don't believe that extracting the last 1% (or
> so) of performance from a yacht makes you a 'good' sailor (this is only inportant
> when racing). I think a good sailor is someone who can get into boat and sail it
> competently and safely.
Well, that's pretty much what I believe too.
> .... As far as performance goes, I don't believe that there's
> anything that you can learn in a dinghy that you can't also learn in a racing
> keelboat like a Soling, Dragon or Eschel (etc).
Hmm... I could argue with that, but it's probably not worth it. Learning
to surf is easier in small boats, as is roll-tacking, roll-gybing,
pumping, etc etc. There are a lot of racing skills which are esoteric
and useless to a cruising sailor which do not transfer from boat to
boat, or are fast in one type but deadly slow in another.
> I hope that you will accept that 'real sailing' may also involve sailing at night,
> passage planning, victualling, navigation etc. and not just sailing at 100%
> performance for an afternoon. I guess that what I am saying is that there is a large
> percentage of pople who want to sail but whom are not interested in dinghy sailing.
Sure. I've always said that dinghies cannot teach one *all* the skills
required for successful cruising. Somehow I think you are not reading
all of my posts. Your option, of course.
> These are not second class sailors but they have different targets than you. I object
> to such rigid ideas about how to learn. I really believe that people like Penny
> Whiting are right, they get more people sailing and continuing to sail than most
> dinghy instructors because they make sailing easy and fun, and that's the key. I
> suggest that your capsize drills do not engender confidence in everyone and may even
> put people off sailing -if even one person has been put off then your approach is
> faulty.
Well, looking back on it, all the people I have taught to sail (every
last one, as of this past spring. I don't keep in close touch with them
all) are still sailing. Some in big boats, some in little ones. Some of
them beat me in races now, and one is currently sailing around the
world.
> .... If they want to race dinghies that that's great and all
> the best to them but please don't promote the idea that you can only learn to sail
> 'properly' in a dinghy -Cook didn't and neither did Slocum!
See my remarks above. Cook and Slocum proved many times that they were
super-competent with small boats. Whether or not you define that as
"dinghy experience" is up to you.
> Finally, I also suggest that there are large numbers of people who are learning to
> sail who have some problem that prevents them from sailing dinghies or enjoying it.
> Are you really suggesting that these people will never learn to sail properly because
> they can't sail a dinghy?
Yup. That's about the size of it.
> ..... If the ocean yacht master certificate is the highest
> qualification that a sailor can aspire to, why does this not include sailing
> dinghies?
I'm not sure on this point, but I believe it does. Don't you have to
start out as "crew" to earn an ocean yacht master cert? Not being a
resident of the UK, I will probably never have such a certificate, nor
will I ever have a US Coast Guard license. Not intending to make a
living by sailing, I have no use for it and little or no interest. At
one point I had a number of USSA and ASA certificates, but they've
probably expired by now as one has to pay money for these things.
Besides I haven't done the basic lifesaving course in years.
> .... If this is so, then why do you make statements like
> 'you can't learnt to sail properly unless you learn in dinghies'? To be take your
> line of reasoning I would state that you cannot be a real sailor because you do not
> understand celestial navigation?!?
My celestial is a little rusty, thank you; but I get your point. However
I think you are taking a violent exception to my point, which is that
the skills developed as a dinghy sailor are very beneficial to the
cruising sailor. In fact there is a set of skills which cannot be
developed any other way.
> So to be a competent sailor you have to do capsize drills? This is absurd!
IMHO it is absurd to suggest that a sailor who cannot deal with this
simple and common event is fully competent. Not to say that every sailor
should be able to right a 470 after a blown-out gybe, but to handle
small boats capably, including the prevention and righting of capsizes,
is a basic skill. One could cruise for years and never need it, but does
that mean it's better to leave it to luck or to develop the skill?
Jordan Bigel
>A capsize is NOT an emergency, it is infact normal part of teaching. If
>tought properly an emergency only exists if a crew member is not accounted
>for, then only until they are above water, or the conditions are such that
>the crew cannot right the craft. Then maybe the should not have gone
>sailing
>in the first place.
>
>OZ Sailor
>Herman Stakenburg
>
This whole slant on the conversation is fascinating.
It seems clear that when you say a capsize is or is not an emergency, you
must qualify your statement by describing what type of boat you are
referring to.
I certainly wouldn't argue that capsizing a dinghy is an emergency. More
like an opportunity for a swim.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a 40 foot sloop then you damn
well better believe its an emergency. And assuming the boat does right
itself, you cannot say the emergency is "over" until the boat has regained
not only proper sailing trim, all hands have been accounted for, no
injuries have been sustained AND the cabin/boat has been cleanup up and
everything which flew across the cabin has been re-stowed in its proper
position. Until then, the crew is operating under great stress and would be
wise to keep their guard up.
Let's not get into a screaming argument about "a capsize is NOT an
emergency", "yes it is", "no it isn't".
Raise your hand if you think a capsize in a dinghy is an emergency?
Ok, you're wrong, go back to sleep.
No, raise you hand if you think capsizing a 40 foot sloop is NOT an emergency?
Ok, you're an idiot. Start paying attention and don't speak again till the
subject matter involves something you DO know something about.
Case closed.
J.
Jim Lynch
sailing. Personally I think that it is best to sail many different
sizes and styles of boats. I don't think it makes much difference which
one you start in. You'll learn something from every one.
Just my opinion,
Jim.
m cannell wrote:
>
> Dear NG
> I hate to disagree with the dinghy bit, but most people will pick up the
> rudiments of sailing much faster in a bigger boat where intrinsic stability
> removes a sense of fear in the student. Also things happen more slowly so that
> it is easy to learn how and why a sail luffs etc. IMHO Dinghies simply respond
> too fast for newbies to get the picture of the interaction of wind with sails
> etc.
>
Jordan Bigel
>It's a mistake to try to whitewash the effects of their limitations and
>tell them that they're learning jsut as much, just as fast, and just as
>well by starting in big boats. But it's also a mistake to send them away.
>
>Ideally, they should be tracked into fast light keelboats - Wylie Wabbit,
>Sonar, even Rhodes 19 would work fine. I just hate to see people starting
>out in boats big enough to need winches, inboard engines, and even wheel
>steering - because in most cases they are missing a big part of the
>appreciation of the art, and all too often they end up as motorsailors.
A very sensible comprimise IMO (and one we have arrived at here before if I
recall). My wife learned on a J22 (no winches) and then on J24s. She did
not have to be concerned with capsize and thus was confident right from the
start.
Of course, I learned on a small boat which capsized frequently, and I loved
it! But I was 8 years old at the time...
J.
Rob F.
> This whole slant on the conversation is fascinating.
>
>It seems clear that when you say a capsize is or is not an emergency, you
>must qualify your statement by describing what type of boat you are
>referring to.
>
>I certainly wouldn't argue that capsizing a dinghy is an emergency. More
>like an opportunity for a swim.
>
>On the other hand, if you're talking about a 40 foot sloop then you damn
>well better believe its an emergency. And assuming the boat does right
>itself, you cannot say the emergency is "over" until the boat has regained
>not only proper sailing trim, all hands have been accounted for, no
>injuries have been sustained AND the cabin/boat has been cleanup up and
>everything which flew across the cabin has been re-stowed in its proper
>position. Until then, the crew is operating under great stress and would be
>wise to keep their guard up.
>
>Let's not get into a screaming argument about "a capsize is NOT an
>emergency", "yes it is", "no it isn't".
>
>Raise your hand if you think a capsize in a dinghy is an emergency?
>
>Ok, you're wrong, go back to sleep.
>
>No, raise you hand if you think capsizing a 40 foot sloop is NOT an emergency?
>
>Ok, you're an idiot. Start paying attention and don't speak again till the
>subject matter involves something you DO know something about.
>
>Case closed.
>
>J.
Good one, Jordan! A new slant on the previously slanted slant!
Can't say I've been on a 40 foot sloop that's capsized. Have to ask
Duran Duran about that! Was that a 40 footer? Who cares, but YES it
was an emergency!
Disclaimer:
I disclaim any error in previous posts whether previously disclaimed
or not. Especially since it does matter what kind of boat you're in
when you capsize.
dudley
>
> I just hate to see people starting out in boats big enough to need winches,
> inboard engines, and even wheel steering - because in most cases they are
> missing a big part of the appreciation of the art, and all too often they
> end up as motorsailors.
BINGO!
dudley
.
Oz Sailor
--
OZ Sailor
Herman Stakenburg
>