Starting VERY BIG engines?
Kari Rissanen
"donkey" engine?), in turn it cranks over the main to start it.
Large jet aircraft with "self start" capabilities use the same method, the aux
is called an APU (aux power unit) which provides electrical power a bleed air to
spin up the turbines. Ditto for big diesels in Catterpillar tractors.
Igor wrote:
> An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov
Outnumbered
> An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov
Generally, air.......most have electrically driven, as well as engine driven air
compressors, which maintain pressure in air receivers/tanks, maintained for this
purpose.
Large ocean going ships, use the same basic system, and in their case, since the
engine must be stopped, to stop propellor rotation, and to go in reverse, the
available air can become a critical factor, in maneuvering.
otn
Douglas King
> > An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> > used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> > would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
Kari Rissanen wrote:
> There's an auxiliary engine which is started first (I think it's called a
> "donkey" engine?), in turn it cranks over the main to start it.
> Large jet aircraft with "self start" capabilities use the same method, the aux
> is called an APU (aux power unit) which provides electrical power a bleed air to
> spin up the turbines. Ditto for big diesels in Catterpillar tractors.
Lots of big diesles and turbines are started using compressed air. One
ship I worked on had a 4-cylinder Colt diesel. Each cylnder was about
ten feet in diameter! It started using 2200psi air through a seperate
set of valves.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
--
This is what we look like when we're at our best:
http://freehosting.at.webjump.com/ei/eisboch-webjump/45.htm
Larry KN4IM
>An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
>used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
>would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
VERY big engines, such as the 38,800 hp, 7-cyl, 3-story-high, main
engine of Sea Land "Performance" is started by blasting high pressure
air into the appropriate cylinder that has just past TDC and will
power the other 6 around in the right direction to start it. A
2-stroke diesel, that's also how REVERSE is engaged, by simply
starting the direct-drive engine backwards. To go to
all-back-emergency, simply stop the engine quickly and restart in
reverse. It's all done with high pressure compressed air.....LOTS of
compressed air. The pistons are 5 ft across and 12 ft high. WOT is
around 110 RPM on a good day....(c;
Large engines in a tugboat, for instance, are started with large
batteries......or also compressed air..... Electric starting is NOT
12V on large engines. 32V is, because the railroad always has used
32VDC, the standard voltage. Some also use 24V systems because of the
availability of standardized 12V batteries. 8V starting batteries for
32V systems (4 in series) are very expensive, around $400 EACH to
crank an 8V92 in a Hatteras. The twin engine Hat has TWO banks of 8V
batteries...eight $400 batteries in all. Think about it next time
you're bitching about buying a $60 starting battery for your boat.
$3200 will power MY boat for YEARS!
Larry...Carrying 8V monsters up the curved stairway in a
Hat....well...SUCKS! We couldn't fit them out the slot vents.
Bill Whalen
Diesels and started them with ships service air -- about 250 lb -- but a lot
of volume was used to spin the engines up to idle.
The Silversides in Muskegeon Michigan still starts her engines once in a
while. What a treat to hear those FM rock crushers turn over!
whalen
Igor wrote in message ...
>An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
>used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
>would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve
all the large diesels I have dealt with start on compressed air. Some use
air motors but most dump air into one or more cylinders which spins the
engine. It only requires one cylinder to fire and the rest will follow, so
actually only a few cubic feet of air is all that is necassary. Unually
about 250 psi.
I once saw a one cylinder boat engine that used hydraulics to start and you
manually pumped up the pressure with a small pump. The pressure was released
to a hydraulic starter motor once the accumulator reached a certian
pressure. Would take about 3 min of pumping.
One of the most interesting of diesels I have come across is a Washington
diesel used in tugs back in the 20s-30s (and still in service today). It
had 7 cylinders but only 6 were for producing power, the 7th was for
compressing air. It was a direct reversing which means it was directly
coupled to the prop shaft and you had to stop the engine and then for
reverse, you simply shifted the cam and restarted the engine in the opposite
direction. I think the max RPM was about 450 and for idle you just stopped
the engine. Another interesting feature was it had no crank case. Called
open sump. The lub oil was completely closed loop and there was just a drip
pan to catch minor leaks. What and education, you could see all the parts
going around and around and up and down. AHHH, they just don't build them
like that anymore.
Steve
David R Brooks
:An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
:used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
:would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
:
As others have written, auxiliary ("pilot") engines, and compressed
air are the systems of choice.
I once saw a large excavator, with a neat little 2-cyl opposed petrol
engine for starting. This was itself started by a rope round the
flywheel, no less! The 2 engines shared a cooling system. During
starting, isolating cocks to the radiator were closed, so that the
heat from the pilot served to pre-warm the main engine. For the same
reason, the pilot's exhaust was led into the main engine's air
intakes.
Nort...@capeonramp.net.com
As a kid (a few years ago) I listened to
big diesels start with a sound similar to
a large impact wrench, an air-start
or pneumatic. Large Marine diesels
are started in a similar fashion, since
a huge amount of torque is required
to spin such behemoths.
We start the jets both from an APU,
which is a small turbine mounted in the tail,
and ground air start, which is a start-cart
pushing pneumatic air through a reinforced
yellow hose. Start cart use is rare, since
the APU's are normally up and running prior to
pushback from the gate.
A jet engine is a diesel. It burns JP8 (#2 home heating w/additives),
and has no ignition system except ignitors for starting.
The four tugboats which operate in the Cape Cod Canal
use a Westinghouse diesel, from mid-60s locomotives. 4000 hp.
They air start them.
David
On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:59:35 -0600, ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor) wrote:
>An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
>used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
>would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dene Oehme
>A jet engine is a diesel.
Not quite. It's certainly compression ignition but it has nothing to
do with diesel.
Regards
Dene Oehme
de...@camtech.net.au
http://www.adelaide.net.au/~dene/menu.htm
James W. Hebert
kayenfo...@nations.net (Larry KN4IM) wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:59:35 -0600, ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor) wrote:
>
> >An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> >used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> >would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
> >
> VERY big engines, such as the 38,800 hp, 7-cyl, 3-story-high, main
> engine of Sea Land "Performance" is started by blasting high pressure
> air into the appropriate cylinder that has just past TDC and will
> power the other 6 around in the right direction to start it.
About 20 years ago (or more), when I was very active in Amateur Radio
chasing DX, I happened to have a lengthy contact with a ship in the
Indian Ocean. After about an hour of conversation with the fellow on
the other end of this long-distance circuit, I casually mentioned that
if he were ever to pass through the Great Lakes and Detroit, he
should look me up. I gave him my telephone number, etc.
About three months later I got a call--to make a long story short--
I got the complete keel-to-bridge tour of his ship, a very modern
German built freighter about 650-feet long, powered by this huge
diesel engine, which was not running at the time. They were actually
in the process of tearing down one of the giant cyclinders for repair.
This thing was enormous. The crankshaft was down on decks 1 and 2.
The connecting rods spanned decks 2 and 4, and the cyclinder heads
were about 5 decks above.
Of course, I asked him, "How do you start this thing?"
He explained the compressed air starting, etc.
"But," I said, " what if you are really in a panic and
you have no compressed air?"
Then he showed me how a couple of cyclinders had this special
breech loading gizmo, into which you could drop a quarter stick
of dynamite. You lit the fuse on the explosive charge,
dropped it in, and closed the breech. BAM!
That would give the engine a kick and it would start!
I don't think that was their routine way, but if everything else
failed, that's how they would do it!
--
James W. Hebert, K8SS | Great Boating Narratives at
Beverly Hills, Mich. | C O N T I N U O U S W A V E
| http://continuouswave.com/sail-logs/
John Howell
Amusing to see some of the responses....
By big diesels I take it you mean those in the big ships as opposed to
those dinky things in tug boats..Many of which are Caterpillars and not
direct reversing and can be started by air motors similar to oversized
starters...they even have a big Bendix drive..
The big ships which are fitted with direct reversing engines and coupled
to the propeller without clutches etc are as some have said air
started..
The cylinders are not as big as some have said...maybe to a three year
old the look ten feet dia...but even now our engineers ain t learned to
cope with the forces of 1500psi plus over such a large area...
The some engines are four stroke but most marine engines are two strioke
and turbo charged to keep things healthy.. The cylinder head contains
the exhaust valve...anything up to 12 ins in dia an injector a relief
valve and an air start valve. On the camshaft is an air distributor.
To start the engine the fuel limiter is put to the start position (idle)
and the direction lever set for ahead or astern...This sets up the
camshaft to get the fuel and exhaust events correct...the air start
lever is operated and this causes pilot air to go through an air
distributor on the camshaft which controls the pilot air to the air
start valves on each cylinder. there is a 4" air line to each valve and
when the pilot signal is received at the valve it opens and lets in the
air to push the piston down...the valves on each cylinder operate in
timed sequence and the engine will achieve around 25 rpm plus on air
which will also set the turbos spinning. once the engine is spinning
the fuel lever (Throttle) is operated and the engine picks up on
fuel..the start air being turned off.. the engine is then under the
control of the fuel lever which may be operated locally but in most
casesis controlled remotly from the bridge....In fact the whole starting
sequence is usually operated in auto mode...
There is very little noise unless there is a bad start in which event
the relief blows and that can be like a bomb going off...if you blow all
of them then it costs the engineer a few drinks at the bar!!!!! lol
These engines are huge and the usual bore is around 1 metre with a strok
of around 2 plus metres however the piston speed is the same as a
car...around 1100 ft. min .
Its a sight to see them running but slightly disconcerting to stand at
the end of an engine looking along the tops of the cylinder heads and
being able to see the firing sequence as each head visibly moves under
the enormous stresses...
Some ships now use medium speed diesels which are physically smaller and
higher reving and frequenty only run in one direction...reverse being
obtained by gearboxes electric drive or variable pitch propellers.
John.
Igor wrote:
>
> An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov
--
John Howell Chaka of Birdham MFAX-7
GM4ZQH
Edinburgh Scotland
_____________/)_____________/)______________/)______________
TobagoFlyr
You have it backwards, jet fuel is basically just more refined diesel oil, and
jet engine are not compression engines. One of the reasons jets are so
reliable is they have no pistons, rods, valves, etc. Almost no moving parts in
a jet.
Ted Edwards
Tobag...@aol.com
Dudley Cornman
> ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor) wrote:
>
> :An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> :used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> :would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
> As others have written, auxiliary ("pilot") engines, and compressed
> air are the systems of choice.
> I once saw a large excavator, with a neat little 2-cyl opposed petrol
> engine for starting. This was itself started by a rope round the
> flywheel, no less! The 2 engines shared a cooling system. During
> starting, isolating cocks to the radiator were closed, so that the
> heat from the pilot served to pre-warm the main engine. For the same
> reason, the pilot's exhaust was led into the main engine's air
> intakes.
My neighbor has owned and operated bulldozers all his life. One of his
older dozers (a D7 CAT I think) came equipped with a kerosene powered
starter engine. He eventually converted it to electric start. He said
the kero starter engine was nothing but trouble.
dsc - acssysdsc
Bryon Kass
diesel has a compression release to allow the little one to get it to
speed. The whole machine is a bit of a chore to get going. I had a D6
Cat dozer recently that would take 10 minutes of futzing with the pony
but ten seconds to jump start with another loader. We would drag it
about ten feet and it would start. With the pony the problems keeping
enough power on line to spin the larger diesel were enormous. It did
work however even in very cold weather.
Bryon Kass
Webmaster and Custom Design
The Engine Room http://getit.at/engineroom
150 Mechanic St.
Foxboro, MA 02035
508-543-9068 508-543-5127 fax or 508-384-2415 at the Foot Yard
Bryon Kass
the base full voltage is 31.5. The VR in the alternator may give
problems but this can be used in a pinch. Three 12s can also be used
for starting but the alternator must be raised for them. 8v batteries
are as you say a real pain.
Bryon Kass
Webmaster and Custom Design
The Engine Room http://getit.at/engineroom
150 Mechanic St.
Foxboro, MA 02035
508-543-9068 508-543-5127 fax or 508-384-2415 at the Foot Yard
Larry KN4IM wrote:
>
> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:59:35 -0600, ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor) wrote:
>
> >An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> >used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> >would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
> >
> VERY big engines, such as the 38,800 hp, 7-cyl, 3-story-high, main
> engine of Sea Land "Performance" is started by blasting high pressure
> air into the appropriate cylinder that has just past TDC and will
Bryon Kass
They are using OP FM diesels air start. I have been trying to get a
tour but they have been a bit busy. He informed me one tugs FM lost
its upper crank after a tow. We are trying to find a new engine for
them. Any leads?
Bryon Kass
Webmaster and Custom Design
The Engine Room http://getit.at/engineroom
150 Mechanic St.
Foxboro, MA 02035
508-543-9068 508-543-5127 fax or 508-384-2415 at the Foot Yard
Nort...@capeonramp.net.com wrote:
>
> Great post and threads which follow.
> As a kid (a few years ago) I listened to
> big diesels start with a sound similar to
> a large impact wrench, an air-start
> or pneumatic. Large Marine diesels
> are started in a similar fashion, since
> a huge amount of torque is required
> to spin such behemoths.
>
> We start the jets both from an APU,
> which is a small turbine mounted in the tail,
> and ground air start, which is a start-cart
> pushing pneumatic air through a reinforced
> yellow hose. Start cart use is rare, since
> the APU's are normally up and running prior to
> pushback from the gate.
>
> A jet engine is a diesel. It burns JP8 (#2 home heating w/additives),
> and has no ignition system except ignitors for starting.
>
> The four tugboats which operate in the Cape Cod Canal
> use a Westinghouse diesel, from mid-60s locomotives. 4000 hp.
> They air start them.
>
> David
>
> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:59:35 -0600, ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor) wrote:
>
> >An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> >used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> >would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
> >
Brock
are even more fuel effiecient & produce 50% thrust from fan section alone!!!!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbine.htm
-- -- Hailing frequencies closed
Larry KN4IM
Incline Village on restricted Lake Tahoe. He can't run his ship on
the lake....it's a two stroker!
Larry .....
On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 00:57:21 -0500, ji...@continuouswave.com (James W.
Hebert) wrote:
>In article <3821f17a...@corp.supernews.com>,
>kayenfo...@nations.net (Larry KN4IM) wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:59:35 -0600, ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor) wrote:
>>
>> >An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
>> >used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
>> >would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>> >
>> VERY big engines, such as the 38,800 hp, 7-cyl, 3-story-high, main
>> engine of Sea Land "Performance" is started by blasting high pressure
>> air into the appropriate cylinder that has just past TDC and will
>> power the other 6 around in the right direction to start it.
>
bmc...@ti.com
about 20' long. came through the floor and had a fence around them. 4 RPM
motor.
Bill
Steve <est...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:s2520n...@corp.supernews.com...
TobagoFlyr
<Robert.Br...@boeing.com> writes:
>
>> Sorry Dene,
>>
>> You have it backwards, jet fuel is basically just more refined diesel oil,
>and
>> jet engine are not compression engines. One of the reasons jets are so
>> reliable is they have no pistons, rods, valves, etc. Almost no moving
>parts in
>> a jet.
>>
>> Ted Edwards
>> Tobag...@aol.com
>
> Try reading this first..... Jet engines are HUGE compressors & the newer
>ones
>with the big FAN at the front
>are even more fuel effiecient & produce 50% thrust from fan section alone!!!!
>
Yes, I understand the jet engine concept well, I am a commercial pilot. In the
context of the Large Diesel Compression engines being discussed in this thread,
Jet Turbines have little if nothing in common. Except, of course, they burn
essentially the same fuel.
I did mistate that jets are not compression engines, they of course have a
large compressor section. But most people, when talking about compression
engines, are talking about "a diesel".
By the way, that is a pretty neat website you referred to. When you read it,
it will explain the difference between a turbine and a reciprocating engine.
Ted Edwards
Tobag...@aol.com
Rod McInnis
"James W. Hebert" wrote:
>
>
> "But," I said, " what if you are really in a panic and
> you have no compressed air?"
>
> Then he showed me how a couple of cyclinders had this special
> breech loading gizmo, into which you could drop a quarter stick
> of dynamite. You lit the fuse on the explosive charge,
> dropped it in, and closed the breech. BAM!
> That would give the engine a kick and it would start!
This is essentially how they used to start large airplane engines.
There was a breech load gizmo in the cockpit which was loaded up with
what resembled a shotgun shell. Pull the trigger and Wham! The engine
would crank over a few times.
Rod McInnis
Steven Shelikoff
> Yes, I understand the jet engine concept well, I am a commercial pilot. In the
> context of the Large Diesel Compression engines being discussed in this thread,
> Jet Turbines have little if nothing in common. Except, of course, they burn
> essentially the same fuel.
Don't jet engines have ignitors? They don't depend on the heat of
compression for ignition like a diesel engine does.
Steve
--
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\ \ \ mailto:shel...@averstar.com
/ / /
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com * The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Anonymous
Oehme wrote:
> >A jet engine is a diesel.
>
> Not quite. It's certainly compression ignition but it has nothing to
> do with diesel.
No, sorry, but a jet is not a compression ignition engine. The "fire" is
started by using electrical ignitors. Once started, the ignitors can be
turned off and ignition continues by simply dumping fuel into the fire.
If the engine "flames out" there is no way to restart the fire except to turn
on the ignitors again. Compression in the engine will not cause ignition.
TobagoFlyr
<shel...@averstar.com> writes:
>
>Don't jet engines have ignitors? They don't depend on the heat of
>compression for ignition like a diesel engine does.
>
>Steve
>
Correct, which is probably why I have never heard anybody refer to a jet
turbine engine, as a compression engine. I quess it has confused some people,
because once a jet is running, the compressor section maintaines the combustion
while producing the useful power.
Ted Edwards
Tobag...@aol.com
Steven Shelikoff
Actually, I think it's the on-going combustion which maintains
combustion, not the compressor. If the engine flames out, the
compressor doesn't supply enough compression to re-ignite the engine
like it does in a diesel. You have to use the ignitors again.
Karl Denninger
I believe in aircraft parlance that is known as a "kaufman" starter.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Web: http://childrens-justice.org
Isn't it time we started putting KIDS first? See the above URL for
a plan to do exactly that!
Ed Taft
> This is essentially how they used to start large airplane engines.
>There was a breech load gizmo in the cockpit which was loaded up with
>what resembled a shotgun shell. Pull the trigger and Wham! The engine
>would crank over a few times.
For a demonstration, watch the film "Flight of the Phoenix", starring
James Stewart and other notable actors. This is the first I had ever
heard of starting an engine that way. Great movie!
--
Ed Taft <ta...@adobe.com>
Adobe Systems Inc., San Jose, California USA
Chuck Tribolet
a British military trainer that used such a device.
They were phased out and sold off to civilians. Because of
British restrictions on firearms, they had to be converted
to electric start. To get the plane to the conversion site,
the buyer got one shell. Best start the first time.
Also, in the days before military jets could start themselves,
they would back one up in front of another and shoot the exhaust
of one down the throat of another to get it spinning. This from
Chuck Yeager's book.
> Rod McInnis <rmci...@TiVo.com> writes:
> > This is essentially how they used to start large airplane engines.
> >There was a breech load gizmo in the cockpit which was loaded up with
> >what resembled a shotgun shell. Pull the trigger and Wham! The engine
> >would crank over a few times.
--
Chuck Tribolet
Internet: tri...@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet
Silicon Valley: Best day job in the world.
Ceilydh
>From: ig...@Algebra.Com (Igor)
>Date: Thu, 04 November 1999 11:59 AM EST
>Message-id: <slrn823er...@manifold.algebra.com>
>
>An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
>used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
>would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
Generally they use air powered starter motors that are connected to a large air
receiver (compressed air bottle). However I've seen engines of about 1500 HP
that use 24volt starter motors and require about 1200 CCA @ 24 volt...
Evan Gatehouse
Geoff Blake
: >Subject: Starting VERY BIG engines?
Yep, and frequently use two starter motors cranking at the same time
(parallel connected of course).
My late boss told me of some larger merchant ships that used the 110VDC
ships supply batteries to crank the main engine(s) air compressor. He was
the ships Wireless Operator (shows the age) and used to complain that the
voltage drop whilst pumping tripped the HT motor generators for his radio
kit.
Not too sure about this but didn't some diesel-electric submarines use the
propulsion motor/generator as a starter too.
Geoff
--
Geoff Blake geoff (at) palaemon . demon . co . uk linux 2.0.36
Chelmsford g8gnz @ g8gnz . ampr . org sparc - i586
Please, only use the .ampr.org address if you know what you are doing
Intel create faster processors - Microsoft create slower processes
edgar cove
<tri...@garlic.com> writes
>I was reading an article in Air & Space magazine recently about
>a British military trainer that used such a device.
>They were phased out and sold off to civilians.
They were called, I think, Koffman starters and looked like huge six-
shooters, because they contained several cartridges so you could have
several tries at starting. The cartridges were designed to produce a
quantity of high pressure gas which powered what was essentially a
pneumatic starter motor. These were used during the war on Rolls-Royce
Merlin engines as fitted to Spitfire and Hurricane fighters. I used
them to start engines when I worked on the RR test beds for a time. Made
a helluva row going off.
> Because of
>British restrictions on firearms, they had to be converted
>to electric start. To get the plane to the conversion site,
>the buyer got one shell. Best start the first time.
<snip>
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
Joe Della Barba
Some comments:
Most turbine aircraft that have electric starters use the starter as
the generator when it gets running.
The air start carts could be deadly when the hose got loose and flew
around like a giant snake.
In the old days when homes were supplied with 120 V DC it was the
height of modern technology to have 120 VDC system on your boat. You
could thus have all "modcons" onboard. There were 120 V starter
motors.
Some old aircraft had inertia starters where either an electric engine
or a handcrank would spin up a flywheel to fire off the engine.
Joe
Robert E. Smith
>
> An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
>
I have worked with both submarine diesel engines and multi-megawatt
emergency generators powered by diesels. The submarines engines are air
started as described in other posts. The emergency generators had air
turbines geared to the engine. The engine is spun up with the
compression release valves engaged. At a given speed the releases are
disengaged in succession. This is a real noisy proceedure.
dr bob.
David Smalley
>
> An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
I worked in an oil refinery for a while.
We started the big diesel pumps w/ compressed air.
David Smalley
>
> There's an auxiliary engine which is started first (I think it's called a
> "donkey" engine?),
The old Cat tractors had a small gas engine for starting called a
"kitten."
in turn it cranks over the main to start it.
> Large jet aircraft with "self start" capabilities use the same method, the aux
> is called an APU (aux power unit) which provides electrical power a bleed air to
> spin up the turbines. Ditto for big diesels in Catterpillar tractors.
>
> Igor wrote:
>
> > An idle curiosity mostly... I was thinking about the huge engines, the ones
> > used in tugboats and such. Does anyone have an idea how thay are started? I
> > would think that a battery or two won't do the job.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> > http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov
Terry Schell
Brock wrote:
>
> TobagoFlyr wrote:
>
> > Sorry Dene,
> >
> > You have it backwards, jet fuel is basically just more refined
> > diesel oil, and
> > jet engine are not compression engines. One of the reasons jets are
> > so
> > reliable is they have no pistons, rods, valves, etc. Almost no
> > moving parts in
> > a jet.
> >
> > Ted Edwards
> > Tobag...@aol.com
>
> Try reading this first..... Jet engines are HUGE compressors & the
> newer ones with the big FAN at the front
> are even more fuel effiecient & produce 50% thrust from fan section
> alone!!!!
>
I think you are confusing engines that work on the principle of
compression and thermal expansion of gas (called Carnot cycle engines)
with the method of ignition. You can have carnot cycle engines that are
spark ignited, compression ignited, or continuous ignition.
When spark ignited (or using a flame tube) they are called "otto cycle"
engines... and most folks call them by the most common fuel used "gas"
engines. When compression ignited they are called "diesel cycle"
engines... which is handy because they often burn diesel fuel.
Continuous ignition engines will continue to burn once started so long
as fuel is delivered. They have no ignition system except during start
up. They typically have some compressive cycle but this isn't strictly
needed for ignition (e.g. ram jet engines). Continuous ignition engines
are usually called "gas turbine" or "jet" engines.
Terry Schell
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
>
<snip>
> Don't jet engines have ignitors? They don't depend on the heat of
> compression for ignition like a diesel engine does.
>
Not quite. The ignitors are typically only used during start up. Once
the "hot section" of the gas turbine heats up, the fire is
self-sustaining. The fuel you add is ignited by the fuel that is already
buring in the chamber. You need neither compression nor ignitors to keep
it burning.
David Smalley
>
> >> There's an auxiliary engine which is started first (I think it's called a
> >> "donkey" engine?),
> >
> >The old Cat tractors had a small gas engine for starting called a
> >"kitten."
> >
>
> other such owners - I can assure you they are not called kittens.
> They are in fact called a pony engine on Caterpillars and in general
> the tern Donkey engine is used in other applications.
>
Well then I guess it was just those of us in the Bahamas and the folks
in Peoria. My dad worked for a Cat dealer in the 50's and 60's and owned
a road building firm in the 70's. I know I certainly worked on D8's that
had kittens as starters.
Just a Guy
including ponys, donkeys, jacks, jumpers and even an SOB once in a while, so
who's to say that they could not be called kittens, or anything else for
that matter. I'm just saying that because you've never heard something
called a certain name doesn't mean it hasn't been. Open your mind, you're on
the internet now, there are people from all over the world here.
One of my favorite signature lines is;
Share what you know, Learn what you don't
Just a Guy
Dene Oehme <de...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
news:38265348...@news.camtech.net.au...
>
> >> There's an auxiliary engine which is started first (I think it's called
a
> >> "donkey" engine?),
> >
> >The old Cat tractors had a small gas engine for starting called a
> >"kitten."
> >
>
> As an old Cat (1939 D2) crawler owner and having been associated with
> other such owners - I can assure you they are not called kittens.
> They are in fact called a pony engine on Caterpillars and in general
> the tern Donkey engine is used in other applications.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Dene Oehme
> de...@camtech.net.au
> http://www.adelaide.net.au/~dene/menu.htm
Rick Johnson
David Smalley wrote:
> Kari Rissanen wrote:
> >
> > There's an auxiliary engine which is started first (I think it's called a
> > "donkey" engine?),
>
> The old Cat tractors had a small gas engine for starting called a
> "kitten."
>
Out where I live (Oregon) we call these starting engines "pony motors". I've
had different types of bulldozers over the years, and I actually prefer
these pony motors for starting diesel engines to direct electric starters.
You don't have to worry about a dead battery, because the pony
motor starts with a hand crank (all mine start on about the first pull)
and the ignition voltage is provided by a magneto. It's one small
engine (two cylinder gas) used to start a much larger (diesel) engine -
relatively simple and straightforward. -Rick
Dene Oehme
>> There's an auxiliary engine which is started first (I think it's called a
>> "donkey" engine?),
>
>The old Cat tractors had a small gas engine for starting called a
>"kitten."
>
As an old Cat (1939 D2) crawler owner and having been associated with
Paul Kamen
>When spark ignited (or using a flame tube) they are called "otto
>cycle" engines... and most folks call them by the most common fuel
>used "gas" engines. When compression ignited they are called
>"diesel cycle" engines... which is handy because they often burn
>diesel fuel.
To be even more pedantic: Isn't the distinction between otto and diesel
still more a matter of comustion pressure/volume rlationship than method
of ignition?
If I recall correctly, otto cycle combustion is best approximated by
constant volume combustion, whereas diesel cycle is closer to constant
pressure combustion.
--
fish...@netcom.com
http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html
-"Call me Fishmeal"-
Terry Schell
Paul Kamen wrote:
>
> Terry Schell <tsc...@uwf.edu> wrote:
>
> >When spark ignited (or using a flame tube) they are called "otto
> >cycle" engines... and most folks call them by the most common fuel
> >used "gas" engines. When compression ignited they are called
> >"diesel cycle" engines... which is handy because they often burn
> >diesel fuel.
>
> To be even more pedantic: Isn't the distinction between otto and diesel
> still more a matter of comustion pressure/volume rlationship than method
> of ignition?
>
> If I recall correctly, otto cycle combustion is best approximated by
> constant volume combustion, whereas diesel cycle is closer to constant
> pressure combustion.
> --
Ooooh, I love pedantic.
While I agree that otto and diesel engines typically have different
pressure cycling characteristics I am pretty sure that the Taylor series
on internal combustion thermodynamics defines them in terms of ignition.
I will have to check when I get home, but I think it says something
like:
Diesel engines ignite their fuel by maintaining an combustion chamber
temp above fuel flash point near TDC (either via compression or
additional heat source). Therefore, fuel must be added near TDC and is
burned as it enters the chamber.
Otto cycle engines ignite their fuel using a timed ignition device
(usually an electrical device but early engines used a small flame and a
little timed door which opened to the chamber) starting a flame front
chain reaction. Therefore, they could intake fuel at any point in the
cycle and ignite it near TDC.
I can actually think of a few diesels that do *not* have nearly constant
pressure at TDC. Some turbo'ed 4-stroke diesels use a waste gate valve
to vary cyl pressure. Some old aero diesels (e.g. some pre WWII german
designs) could have dramatically varying cyl pressures as a function of
altitude even for the same power setting.
David Smalley
wrong, you said that I was wrong.
Just a Guy wrote:
>
> Not to flame, I have heard these small starter engines called many things,
> including ponys, donkeys, jacks, jumpers and even an SOB once in a while, so
> who's to say that they could not be called kittens, or anything else for
> that matter. I'm just saying that because you've never heard something
> called a certain name doesn't mean it hasn't been. Open your mind, you're on
> the internet now, there are people from all over the world here.
>
> One of my favorite signature lines is;
> Share what you know, Learn what you don't
>
> Just a Guy
>
> Dene Oehme <de...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
> news:38265348...@news.camtech.net.au...
> >
Marcus G Bell
> > Dene Oehme <de...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
[snip]
David Smalley (dr...@bellsouth.net) wrote:
> Well Dene you should take your own advice.
(checking back in thread for who said what)
What advice was that?
-- -- Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
David Smalley
>
> > Just a Guy (Justa...@hotnospammail.com) wrote:
> > > Dene Oehme <de...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
> > > > David Smalley (dr...@bellsouth.net) wrote:
> [snip]
>
> David Smalley (dr...@bellsouth.net) wrote:
> > Well Dene you should take your own advice.
>
> (checking back in thread for who said what)
>
> What advice was that?
My bad! Aparently I got confused when Just a guy posted his reply on top
of Dene.
Kittens, ponies, dogcatchers...
A.C. Koelewijn
Terry Schell <tsc...@uwf.edu> writes:
>
----<SNIP remarks by fishmeal>
> Ooooh, I love pedantic.
>
> While I agree that otto and diesel engines typically have different
> pressure cycling characteristics I am pretty sure that the Taylor series
> on internal combustion thermodynamics defines them in terms of ignition.
> I will have to check when I get home, but I think it says something
> like:
>
> Diesel engines ignite their fuel by maintaining an combustion chamber
> temp above fuel flash point near TDC (either via compression or
> additional heat source). Therefore, fuel must be added near TDC and is
> burned as it enters the chamber.
>
> Otto cycle engines ignite their fuel using a timed ignition device
> (usually an electrical device but early engines used a small flame and a
> little timed door which opened to the chamber) starting a flame front
> chain reaction. Therefore, they could intake fuel at any point in the
> cycle and ignite it near TDC.
>
> I can actually think of a few diesels that do *not* have nearly constant
> pressure at TDC. Some turbo'ed 4-stroke diesels use a waste gate valve
> to vary cyl pressure. Some old aero diesels (e.g. some pre WWII german
> designs) could have dramatically varying cyl pressures as a function of
> altitude even for the same power setting.
Once upon a time, long, long ago I flew model-aeroplanes which had small
engines, about 1.5 - 6 cm^3. At that time we either used what we called
diesel engines, fuel mainly a mixture of light diesel oil and ether, whith
adjustable compression, or what were called glow-plug engines, fuel mainly
methanol and with a much lower compression. The glow-plugs were externally
fired (2.4 V battery) for starting the engines, but once they were running
I always understood that the catalytic reaction between the platina off
the glow-plug and the methanol kept the glow-plug hot enough to ignite the
fuel.
Acording the part of the definition Terry gives, both would have been
diesel engines, the fuel is ignited near TDC due to the high temperature
there, according to another part of the definition they both must have been
Otto engines, as the fuel is mixed with the air before it enters the
engine.
Could someone please tell me what they really were, and maybe somebody has
a definition which not only includes "full-size" engines, but also the
little ones.
Or is this a too pedantic question to ask?
Aart
--
Aart Koelewijn Linux 2.2.10
email: aa...@mtack.xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mtack/
Terry Schell
"A.C. Koelewijn" wrote:
>
<snip>
> Once upon a time, long, long ago I flew model-aeroplanes which had small
> engines, about 1.5 - 6 cm^3. At that time we either used what we called
> diesel engines, fuel mainly a mixture of light diesel oil and ether, whith
> adjustable compression, or what were called glow-plug engines, fuel mainly
> methanol and with a much lower compression. The glow-plugs were externally
> fired (2.4 V battery) for starting the engines, but once they were running
> I always understood that the catalytic reaction between the platina off
> the glow-plug and the methanol kept the glow-plug hot enough to ignite the
> fuel.
>
> Acording the part of the definition Terry gives, both would have been
> diesel engines, the fuel is ignited near TDC due to the high temperature
> there, according to another part of the definition they both must have been
> Otto engines, as the fuel is mixed with the air before it enters the
> engine.
>
hmmmm... this is interesting. Where these engines able to operate at
more than one power level? Was this done by varying the amount of fuel
added or the amount of fuel & air that was added?
What prevented ignition during the intake stroke?
<snip>
> Or is this a too pedantic question to ask?
>
>
Perish the thought.
Steven Shelikoff
I'm surprised you didn't fly model airplanes. The engines I remember
ran off a castor oil type of concoction. They are 2 stroke, reed valve
or rotary valve depending on the engine, etc. A battery applied to the
resistive glow plug was required for starting and then I believe it was
just the heat of the previous combustion which kept the glow plug hot
for the next ignition. The air/fuel ratio was adjusted by a needle
valve and you tweaked that valve until the engine ran "right." On some
engines the power level was adjusted by varying the intake air amount.
On others, the exhaust port size is varied. Here's a picture of a
typical one, the exact opposite of a VERY BIG engine.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/mikei/osmg0546.jpg
A.C. Koelewijn
Terry Schell <tsc...@uwf.edu> writes:
>
>
> "A.C. Koelewijn" wrote:
>>
> <snip>
>
>> Once upon a time, long, long ago I flew model-aeroplanes which had small
>> engines, about 1.5 - 6 cm^3. At that time we either used what we called
>> diesel engines, fuel mainly a mixture of light diesel oil and ether, whith
>> adjustable compression, or what were called glow-plug engines, fuel mainly
>> methanol and with a much lower compression. The glow-plugs were externally
>> fired (2.4 V battery) for starting the engines, but once they were running
>> I always understood that the catalytic reaction between the platina off
>> the glow-plug and the methanol kept the glow-plug hot enough to ignite the
>> fuel.
>>
>> Acording the part of the definition Terry gives, both would have been
>> diesel engines, the fuel is ignited near TDC due to the high temperature
>> there, according to another part of the definition they both must have been
>> Otto engines, as the fuel is mixed with the air before it enters the
>> engine.
>
> hmmmm... this is interesting. Where these engines able to operate at
> more than one power level? Was this done by varying the amount of fuel
> added or the amount of fuel & air that was added?
>
> What prevented ignition during the intake stroke?
>
Normally these engines had no way to operate at any other power level then full
power. For certain applications, it was usefull to run these two-stroke
engines so rich, that they would, what was called, run in four-stroke mode,
and develop less power. We did this in what was called "stunt flying". With
any sudden change off flying course, there would be an extra load on the
engine, that would get in two-stroke mode and develop the needed extra power.
This could only be done with the glow-plug engines.
For radio-controlled model aeroplanes versions of these engines were developed
with adjustable power level. This was mainly done by throttling the air in the
"carburator" (really a very simple air-fuel mixing device). Sometimes there
was a throttle in the exhaust too.
As these were two-stroke engines, there was no real intake stroke, the problem
was more to get the fuel to ignite at the right moment during the compression
stroke.
Jerome A. Schroeder
Dudley Cornman <acss...@acs.eku.edu> wrote in message
news:Gf5DGv...@acs.eku.edu...
> In article <jimh-05119...@ppp5.compu-aid.com>,
ji...@continuouswave.com (James W. Hebert) writes:
> > Then he showed me how a couple of cyclinders had this special
> > breech loading gizmo, into which you could drop a quarter stick
> > of dynamite. You lit the fuse on the explosive charge,
> > dropped it in, and closed the breech. BAM!
> > That would give the engine a kick and it would start!
> >
> > failed, that's how they would do it!
>
> Some old airplanes use to use what looked like giant shot gun shells to
> start.
>
> dsc - acssysdsc
>
>
I believe they were called Kaufman starters.
Jerry
Shane Badham
I did two years in the Andrew as an electrical mechanic. We had large
diesels for electrical power when at anchor or no shore supplies.
Primary power was steam turbine.
We had been overhauling one, both electrical and mechanical. It was now
time to test. The Chief ERA was on top of the engine and about to start
it. My Chief was round by the generator. I was between the two at the
regulator.
The Chief ERA warned me that he was about to start the engine. These
engines were almost 20 foot long by 10 high (plus sump) and I guess 5+
across. The pistons were something like 12 inches in diameter. The
starting mechanism was compressed air.
I knew they were loud on staring, but I'd heard it before (but not this
close). It sounded like the largest wet fart you have ever heard! It
went on for about 30 seconds. During the last 10 seconds the engine
fired and the ERA revved it up.
If I had extended my arm I could have touched it. I did not do this; I
shrank against the bulkhead!
I have never heard anything quite as loud since, nor ever want to do so
again.
--
Regards, Shane.
"A closed mouth gathers no feet!"
David Smalley
>
> I have missed most of this post, but here is my two pen'th.
>
> I did two years in the Andrew as an electrical mechanic. We had large
> diesels for electrical power when at anchor or no shore supplies.
> Primary power was steam turbine.
>
> We had been overhauling one, both electrical and mechanical. It was now
> time to test. The Chief ERA was on top of the engine and about to start
> it. My Chief was round by the generator. I was between the two at the
> regulator.
>
> The Chief ERA warned me that he was about to start the engine. These
> engines were almost 20 foot long by 10 high (plus sump) and I guess 5+
> across. The pistons were something like 12 inches in diameter. The
> starting mechanism was compressed air.
>
> I knew they were loud on staring, but I'd heard it before (but not this
> close). It sounded like the largest wet fart you have ever heard! It
> went on for about 30 seconds. During the last 10 seconds the engine
> fired and the ERA revved it up.
>
> If I had extended my arm I could have touched it. I did not do this; I
> shrank against the bulkhead!
>
> I have never heard anything quite as loud since, nor ever want to do so
> again.
LOL!
You reminded me of the first time I was around the startup off an Alco
(I believe) diesel which met the description and size above. (I have
never seen a Muffler as big as was on this machine before or since)
I remember a couple of guys smirking my way, and I had heard that
everyone who ever heard it was scared shitless the first time.
I was determined not to be scared or jump, hell it was just a little
_noise_ right? I watched Morris' (The lead mechanic) every move
determined that there was no way he was going to catch me off guard.
There went his hand, here it goes...nothing...other hand hits other
switch, here it goes...nothing...)*&^%)*^%)*&%*%*%^
My insides were all of a sudden trying to get out led by my heart out my
throat while my outsides were trying to get in via my puckered butt. I
felt like I was going to get turned inside out. It scared the holy
bejeezuz out of me. The guys were killing themselves laughing at my
antics.
Apparently it was on a 3-5 second delay. The first button fired up the
compressor (very silent), the second switch opened the valve to the
buffer tank, the starter was automatically engaged when the buffer was
at the required pressure.
And you're right it seemed to go on forever. I wore earmuffs the next
time.
edgar cove
<sh...@wonk.demon.co.uk> writes
>I have missed most of this post, but here is my two pen'th.
>
>I did two years in the Andrew as an electrical mechanic. We had large
>diesels for electrical power when at anchor or no shore supplies.
>Primary power was steam turbine.
>
>We had been overhauling one, both electrical and mechanical. It was now
>time to test. The Chief ERA was on top of the engine and about to start
>it. My Chief was round by the generator. I was between the two at the
>regulator.
>
>The Chief ERA warned me that he was about to start the engine. These
>engines were almost 20 foot long by 10 high (plus sump) and I guess 5+
>across. The pistons were something like 12 inches in diameter. The
>starting mechanism was compressed air.
>
>I knew they were loud on staring, but I'd heard it before (but not this
>close). It sounded like the largest wet fart you have ever heard! It
>went on for about 30 seconds. During the last 10 seconds the engine
>fired and the ERA revved it up.
>
>If I had extended my arm I could have touched it. I did not do this; I
>shrank against the bulkhead!
>
>I have never heard anything quite as loud since, nor ever want to do so
>again.
>
the cylinder gives a pretty quiet start
Kent Hunter-Duvar
use the running engine and attached compressor to fill attached air tank to
provide air for the next start. The oddest I ever saw was a really old marine
diesel and it had a fitting on the number 1 cylinder where you put in a 12 gauge
shotgun shell (shot removed first) and then hit it with a hammer.
Kent
bmc...@ti.com
work.
Bill
WB <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:D7TY3.4831$MZ.3...@ozemail.com.au...
> Lucas CAV make a clock work starters for many size engines, you simply
wind
> them up and push a button. They mostly used my the military armagedon type
> equipment that is in deep storage. Many commerical fisherman also use
them.
>
>
> edgar cove <ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:lhwPIDAa...@coves.demon.co.uk...
eduardo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Geoff Blake
: Lucas CAV make a clock work starters for many size engines, you simply wind
: them up and push a button. They mostly used my the military armagedon type
: equipment that is in deep storage. Many commerical fisherman also use them.
These "spring starters" were originally manufacturered by Simms and were
part of the reason that Lucas/CAV bought the Company.
When I worked for Simms, the spring starters were eminently suitable for
starting diesel engines in the range 30-200bhp. They were _not_ suitable for
petrol or TVO engines.
Geoff
: edgar cove <ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
--
Geoff Blake geoff (at) palaemon . demon . co . uk linux 2.0.36
Chelmsford g8gnz @ g8gnz . ampr . org sparc - i586
Please, only use the .ampr.org address if you know what you are doing
Intel create faster processors - Microsoft create slower processes
Jerome A. Schroeder
Port of Seattle. They worked like a charm.
Jerry
Geoff Blake <ge...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FLEsL...@nospam.demon.co.uk...
WB
them up and push a button. They mostly used my the military armagedon type
equipment that is in deep storage. Many commerical fisherman also use them.
Robert E. Smith
starting large diesel engines long ago when diesels were fairly new and
used industrially only. The compressor is composed of two Fors Model
"T" cylinders. One cylinder runs on gasoline powering the ajacent
cylinder configures as a piston compressor. There is a heavy flywheel
on the drive shaft with a little sprung-closed handle for starting. It
runs really well. We have not tested the max pressure, but there is
plenty of air moving about. It can be started by maneuvering the power
cylinder to TDC+ and switching on the (battery operated, for now)
ignition coil. The engine comes complete with the original Model_T
distributor with poles for four cylinders. dr bob.