The perfect boat
Frogwatch
looking for a solution to the problems of high slip fees,
trailerability, my need for shoal draft, etc. This has prompted my
interest in the Presto 30 and sharpies in general.
However, my old S2 was long ago paid for and with 3'10" draft can go
many places most sail boats cannot go. She is also seaworthy (newish
standing rigging and sails etc) and familiar. I even replaced her
engine a few years ago to make her better for long trip under mostly
power.
The cost of a new boat would pay for many years of slip fees. Now
that my daughter and her bf (probably will be her husband) have
graduated and want to do some cruising, I have them to help move the
old S2 about on the coast from place to place.
I'll probably stay with my good old boat for awhile.
Bruce In Bangkok
Out of curiosity, aren't there any places left where you can moor a
boat. Maybe put down your own mooring and essentially anchor free?
Where do fishermen keep their boats these days?
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
slide
>
>
> Out of curiosity, aren't there any places left where you can moor a
> boat. Maybe put down your own mooring and essentially anchor free?
>
> Where do fishermen keep their boats these days?
There's quite a move to control mooring and even anchoring in many US
harbors. Part of it are cities wishing to collect fees for moorages and
part of it is due to those who buy expensive shoreside properties not
wishing to have their views ruined by permanent liveabords who get some
wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent.
While there are some legal hassles over issues I'm not familiar about,
the cities do seem to be winning.
I even had some fights with homeowners when anchored overnight along the
Inland Waterway. They'd 'protest' me blocking their view (for a night
only) by shining bright spotlights on my boat making the inside quite
bright and thus difficult to sleep.
I do have some sympathy with the homeowners. Many of the liveaboards
quite obviously pollute the area with their black and gray water plus
looking at an array of boat wrecks covered with scrouged junk and
laundry isn't a sight I'd like to see from my windows or yard. I'd also
resent the pollution if I or my family used the backyard beach as a
swimming area.
Wayne.B
<dryads...@xxxxyahoo.com> wrote:
>permanent liveabords who get some
>wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent.
That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse.
Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and
then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore.
Joe
> On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
>
> >permanent liveabords who get some
> >wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent.
>
> That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse.
> Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and
> then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore.
You're talking about Neal right?
We also have a boat dump here. People to cheap to pay for a slip
anchor in the federal waterways, that way the city or state has no
say. Most blow ashore and the city then has to dispose of them. The
problem has compounded since hurricane Ike and hundreds of very cheap
boats have hit the market.
I'd say the ideal boat is one that can make a living for her crew and
many others. The rest are mostly under used expensive toys. But thats
just my opinion.
Joe
Bruce In Bangkok
I wasn't particularly talking about live-a-boards. Just keeping a
boat. What do fishermen do with their boats? They can't be mooring
them in marinas, can they?
The last time I was around the water in the U.S. was quite some time
ago but then there were lobster boats moored in nearly every bay up
and down the coast of Maine and I kept my boat on a mooring in a small
bay where a number of lobster boats were and paid a fisherman a bit
each month to keep an eye on it.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep
a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
>On Dec 7, 1:54�pm, Wayne.B <waynebatrecdotbo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
>>
>> <dryadsdadx...@xxxxyahoo.com> wrote:
>> >permanent liveabords who get some
>> >wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent.
>>
>> That is the crux of the problem right there. � It gets worse.
>> Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and
>> then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore.
>
>You're talking about Neal right?
Actually No! As far as Neil and his personas go I have most of them
kill-filed and out of sight is out of mind.
>We also have a boat dump here. People to cheap to pay for a slip
>anchor in the federal waterways, that way the city or state has no
>say. Most blow ashore and the city then has to dispose of them. The
>problem has compounded since hurricane Ike and hundreds of very cheap
>boats have hit the market.
Why do you say "too cheap to pay for a slip"? Does renting a slip
somehow confer added dignity on one?
>
> I'd say the ideal boat is one that can make a living for her crew and
>many others. The rest are mostly under used expensive toys. But thats
>just my opinion.
>
>Joe
And then there are those of us who have sufficient funds to live as we
wish and to whom "making a living" is simply history.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Vic Smith
Depends where you are. I checked a marina in Punta Gorda, FL
a couple years ago and it was $3-400 a month dockage for a 26'.
Water and electric included. Probably cheaper now.
At the same time/area a 24' trailerable boat kept in a barn storage
ran a couple hundred a month. Ramp launching was included.
Twice a day before additional charge as I recall.
--Vic
Joe
> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:06:02 -0800 (PST), Joe <steelredcl...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 7, 1:54 pm, Wayne.B <waynebatrecdotbo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
>
> >> <dryadsdadx...@xxxxyahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >permanent liveabords who get some
> >> >wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent.
>
> >> That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse.
> >> Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and
> >> then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore.
>
> >You're talking about Neal right?
>
> Actually No! As far as Neil and his personas go I have most of them
> kill-filed and out of sight is out of mind.
>
> >We also have a boat dump here. People to cheap to pay for a slip
> >anchor in the federal waterways, that way the city or state has no
> >say. Most blow ashore and the city then has to dispose of them. The
> >problem has compounded since hurricane Ike and hundreds of very cheap
> >boats have hit the market.
>
> Why do you say "too cheap to pay for a slip"? Does renting a slip
> somehow confer added dignity on one?
Here we have a very muddy bottom, and without a proper mooring system
the boats anchored out usually end up blown down to shore or worse on
other boats in slips. I wish we had a proper anchorage here but I have
not seen one in Texas at all. Every coastal port has marinas. Some
marinas for working boats and others for "yachts". Most marina's do
not mix the two.
Alot of sailors who are boat poor...picking up an extra 20 something
footers for a sawbuck or less just anchor them out and neglect the
boats, hoping to have funds to fix them up sometime down the road, and
as I said over time a strong front will roar past causing them to
drag....bad. We have a federal water way at a flood control gates here
that is lined with sunken sail boats.
We do have many passing thru that anchor out and that is not a
problem. They do not just toss a hook and walk away.
>
>
>
> > I'd say the ideal boat is one that can make a living for her crew and
> >many others. The rest are mostly under used expensive toys. But thats
> >just my opinion.
>
> >Joe
>
> And then there are those of us who have sufficient funds to live as we
> wish and to whom "making a living" is simply history.
Must be nice. ;0)
I'm going to combine the two, live as I wish, and make money.
Joe
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce
> (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Wilbur Hubbard
news:f860215a-a604-4e66...@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> I'm going to combine the two, live as I wish, and make money.
>
> Joe
Poor delusional sod!
If you have to "make money" you sure can't live as you wish - unless you
actually wish to be a slave. No human being actually wishes to work half a
year each year just to pay all the frigging government taxes at every level
of government. And, higher taxes are on the way thanks to the fools who
elected Obama and the Democrat Congress. Get a clue, Joe. It won't be long
before you and every other worker is working NINE months out of the year
just to pay your taxes.
But, come to think of it, thanks Joe, for busting your scrawny, little,
Cajun arse to help pay my Social Security each month and for helping to pay
for my VA medical care. Bwahahahhahahahaha.
Wilbur Hubbard
slide
The restrictions exist partly due to the 'bum' live aboard' issue but
apply to overnight anchoring as well. Frex, last time I was there, and I
suppose this won't change, Vero Beach's excellent anchorage is forbidden
even for a night unless you pay a fee to the city. As I said in my post,
those who live on the coast objected to me anchoring off their backyards
even for a night.
Vero's restriction was challenged in court on some grounds out of my
knowing. Vero Beach won it. That sort of restriction is rampant today. I
noted it exists only where houses are.
The commercial fleet isn't nearly as large as it was a few years ago.
Frex, the shrimpers have been reduced dramatically by Chinese shrimp
farmers. Other sorts of fishermen are reduced due to species removal or
reductions. AFAIK, the northern fishermen (like Maine) are doing ok
except for cod. The lobster fleet and those *#&#& pots seem darn
numerous to me. Then again, it's not like I ever saw it in 1980 so I
can't compare.
I chatted up a few shrimpers who clearly think they are the last of the
shrimp hunters. A business which has gone on for generations (they say)
is now dead or dying.
slide
>
> I wasn't particularly talking about live-a-boards. Just keeping a
> boat. What do fishermen do with their boats? They can't be mooring
> them in marinas, can they?
Yes, they are in commercial docks.
Joe
wrote:
> "Joe" <steelredcl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f860215a-a604-4e66...@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I'm going to combine the two, live as I wish, and make money.
>
> > Joe
>
> Poor delusional sod!
>
> If you have to "make money" you sure can't live as you wish - unless you
> actually wish to be a slave.
nah, I like working Nealbur, infact my work is so enjoyable i'd
rather be doing it than most anything else. I'm not the type to sit on
a hook and watch the world pass by.
No human being actually wishes to work half a
> year each year just to pay all the frigging government taxes at every level
> of government. And, higher taxes are on the way thanks to the fools who
> elected Obama and the Democrat Congress. Get a clue, Joe. It won't be long
> before you and every other worker is working NINE months out of the year
> just to pay your taxes.
You need to invest all your profits in the perfect livaboard, working
boat. If you re-invest everything you make then the tax burden is much
less.
>
> But, come to think of it, thanks Joe, for busting your scrawny, little,
> Cajun arse to help pay my Social Security each month and for helping to pay
> for my VA medical care. Bwahahahhahahahaha.
No problem Nealbur every veteran deserves the best healthcare, but I
was born here in Texas and have no coonass at all in the family tree.
Infact I now avoid Louisanna like the plague. Cajuns are good people
but they belong on the other side of the Sabine. Did you here about
the war between the cajans and Texans on the Sabine River? The coon
asses were throwing dynamite, and the Texans were lighting it and
throwing it back.
Joe
>
> Wilbur Hubbard
mmc
"slide" <dryads...@xxxxyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hflt7c$8em$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.
slide
>
> Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
> complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
> responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
> Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
> slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
> almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
> Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
> Tampa.
> We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
> important food for all carniverous species.
> I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
> Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
> screwed Floridans permanently.
>
I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.
I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....
I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.
Joe
> mmc wrote:
>
> > Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
> > complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
> > responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
> > Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
> > slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
> > almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
> > Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
> > Tampa.
> > We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
> > important food for all carniverous species.
> > I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
> > Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
> > screwed Floridans permanently.
>
> I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
> as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
> which were collateral damage causalities.
Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.
>
> I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
> letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
> like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....
He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.
And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?
How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?
Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.
>
> I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.
Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.
No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?
I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?
Joe
- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
mmc
Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.
------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.
They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only.
Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out. As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.
Lot's of hot air.
Joe
> Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
> the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.
>
> ------------
> Joe,
> Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone
> else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
> measurements necessary.
IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.
> They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only.
I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.
Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.
We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.
> Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
> about wiped out.
Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO. Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.
I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.
As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
> mullet before the goverment stepped in.
As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.
> Lot's of hot air.
Is it?
Joe
mmc
On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" <eod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
> the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.
>
> ------------
> Joe,
> Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than
> anyone
> else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
> measurements necessary.
IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.
--------
The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much
bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to
take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link
in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact.
I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk
but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real
choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that
happens. To me the second is the only option.
> They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air
> only.
I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.
------------
I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make
sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a
crisis. I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70%
cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop
shells than a bus load of tourists any day.
I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great.
-------------.
Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.
We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.
> Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
> about wiped out.
Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO.
------------
I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of
change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of
trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to
problems rather than proactively to avoid them.
About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet
netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to
screw those up too.
-----------
Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.
I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.
As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
> mullet before the goverment stepped in.
As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.
> Lot's of hot air.
Is it?
Joe
-------
Thanks for a reasonable discussion Joe.
Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
>On Dec 9, 7:35�am, slide <dryadsdadx...@xxxxyahoo.com> wrote:
Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the
ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you
know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury
bond sale and no one buys?
I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it
does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese
cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp.
The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is
likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy
a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and
the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the
U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication.
And round and round...
You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese
stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S.
dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in
price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the
fisherman decides to quit fishing...
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Joe
> "Joe" <steelredcl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:670a6a0a-5f3e-44ba...@u25g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" <eod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
> > the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.
>
> > ------------
> > Joe,
> > Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than
> > anyone
> > else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
> > measurements necessary.
>
> IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
> wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
> export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
> cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.
>
> --------
>
> The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much
> bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to
> take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link
> in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact.
> I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk
> but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real
> choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that
> happens. To me the second is the only option.
here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out
commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences
from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for
next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like
NY Taxi cabs plates.
>
> > They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air
> > only.
>
> I agree.
> But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
> here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
> find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
> watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
> flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.
>
> ------------
>
> I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make
> sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a
> crisis.
Thats happening everywhere. The industry and rules are heavly
regulated. The FV San Jacinto drags most every day monitoring the bay
and set the rules and limits and times shrimpers can fish.
I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70%
> cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop
> shells than a bus load of tourists any day.
> I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great.
Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.
http://www.ccatexas.org
We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They
have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays
releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the
Redfish counted in the 70's.
>
> -------------.
>
> Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
> shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
> here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
> for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
> one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
> whole species of shrimp.
>
> We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
> ect that are wiping out local species.
>
> > Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
> > about wiped out.
>
> Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
> been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
> depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
> sea IMO.
>
> ------------
>
> I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of
> change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of
> trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to
> problems rather than proactively to avoid them.
I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.
Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many
many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we
have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to
get back to the good ol days
> About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet
> netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to
> screw those up too.
>
I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look
at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something
has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the
fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next
generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with
most any species.
In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the
time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever
seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000
different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in
the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped
a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into
Hector.
http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html
Joe
Joe
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe <steelredcl...@yahoo.com>
> I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it
> does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese
> cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp.
>
> The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is
> likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy
> a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and
> the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the
> U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication.
Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's
>
> And round and round...
>
> You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese
> stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S.
> dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in
> price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the
> fisherman decides to quit fishing...
I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or
Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO.
Joe
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce
> (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text -
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
>discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
>put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
>and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.
When I was Oil King on my can, I once pumped about 1000 gallons of
Navy Special Fuel Oil in Naples Harbor. That's heavy black stuff.
It was discharged between us and the destroyer tender tied alongside.
When the cry went out, I got fire hose crews fore and aft to contain
the oil between ships. Then went and got some help to open the after
stack and carry the 100# sacks of black sand we stored there to the
rail. Dumped the sand on the oil and sank it. Some floated out into
the harbor though. The boatswains still had to clean up the ship
sides from bosun chairs. Lots missed liberty that day, and I was
nobody's friend.
But that's how it was done in "beautiful" Naples Harbor in 1966.
With everybody noticing.
Things sure have changed.
--Vic
Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
>On Dec 9, 6:55�pm, Bruce In Bangkok <decypher.addr...@sig.line> wrote:
Sure, you did.... a while ago when the world was younger and things
were simpler. Back when the U.S. manufactured what they needed and
exported manufactured goods to foreign countries. Now things are
different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in
Banglaore, India. Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made
in one of those cheap foreign countries. Shrimp? the Thais can grow
shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then
you can fish them.
Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the
Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what?
Over a thousand dollars and ounce?
It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never
going to change back.....
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Joe
wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:12:00 -0800 (PST), Joe <steelredcl...@yahoo.com>
We can still do that, perhaps youve been gone to long Bruce. Take a
drive across the US and you will see vast resources that have never
been tapped. I think the scales are going to tip back our way because
of several factor that will bring us back to where we need to be.
China and all of Asia is learning fast that cheap mfg has a very big
price. As they implement enviromental standards, decent wages,
heathcare ect...ect and start supporting a retiring staff the playiong
field will level.
Now things are
> different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in
> Banglaore, India.
Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back
here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same
cost.
Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made
> in one of those cheap foreign countries.
Not everything.
And if you think China will get away with keeping it's yeun at
artifical low rates flooding our markets, Russia putting massive
taffifs on imports.. 30% on cars for example, Indonesia requiring very
expensive "Licences to import", India and Vietman just imposed massive
tarrifs on steel....Dubia, Saudi.....ect...ect.......ect you are
crazy. I know of many many companies bringing mfg back from China and
the flood is just starting. It's like when Yamamoto said " I'm afraid
we just awoke a sleeping giant."
Shrimp? the Thais can grow
> shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then
> you can fish them.
Yeah and the Thais have no problem destroying an eco system if needed
to get a fist full of greenbacks.
>
> Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the
> Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what?
> Over a thousand dollars and ounce?
Ed McMahn will redeem all the green you have for gold......You've
been gone to long Bruce.
>
> It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never
> going to change back.....
>
I learned to never say never.
Salute,
Joe
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:57:18 -0800 (PST), Joe <steelredcl...@yahoo.com>
Damn Vic...I can see the slick
http://www.usscharleshroan.org/images/roan_naples1966.jpg
Joe
Capt. JG
I think this process will happen but slowly. We've exported so much of our
manufacturing and we need to do so much retooling to make heavy
manufactoring palatable, that I doubt we'll get much of it back. Everyone
keeps harping on China's economic supremacy being just around the corner,
but it isn't for many of the reasons you mention. Their growth will have to
slow to be sustainable.
> Now things are
> different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in
> Banglaore, India.
> Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back
>here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same
>cost.
Yes. And, even though the raw numbers say that outsourcing such things is
cheaper, the longer view is that it's at least the same cost if not a higher
cost. We should give business added incentive to keep jobs here with both
tax and other incentives. The "green" technologies (whether or not you think
they're _required_ due to man-made global climage change) is one industry
that we could capitalize on here.
> Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made
> in one of those cheap foreign countries.
>Not everything.
Not everything, but it's a big number.
>And if you think China will get away with keeping it's yeun at
>artifical low rates flooding our markets, Russia putting massive
>taffifs on imports.. 30% on cars for example, Indonesia requiring very
>expensive "Licences to import", India and Vietman just imposed massive
>tarrifs on steel....Dubia, Saudi.....ect...ect.......ect you are
>crazy. I know of many many companies bringing mfg back from China and
>the flood is just starting. It's like when Yamamoto said " I'm afraid
>we just awoke a sleeping giant."
It's going to be a long process. There are geopolitical issues that go
beyond simple trade agreements.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com
Capt. JG
news:8na2i55dl5sa8np05...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:58:17 -0800, "Capt. JG" <jg...@sailnow.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>"Joe" <steelr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same
>>>cost.
>
>>
>>Yes. And, even though the raw numbers say that outsourcing such things is
>>cheaper, the longer view is that it's at least the same cost if not a
>>higher
>>cost. We should give business added incentive to keep jobs here with both
>>tax and other incentives. The "green" technologies (whether or not you
>>think
>>they're _required_ due to man-made global climage change) is one industry
>>that we could capitalize on here.
>>
>
> especially true of good paying manufacturing jobs. That has been
> tried. However, if they started taxing corporations using a formula
> that made a higher "employees to profits" ratio result in a big tax
> benefit, it might have a chance.
>
> Obviously, if you do your manufacturing overseas, you would have a
> very low "employees to profits" ratio and would pay substantially
> higher taxes.
>
> Whatever looks best to shareholders is what will work. In the "olden
> days", the stock market viewed adding employees as a sign of a
> company's strength. Today it is considered a weakness. That is a
> fundemental problem that has to be changed.
>
We're really dug ourselves a big hole. Both sides of the political divide
have contributed to it. It's going to take a while to fix it, assuming the
politicians have the intestinal fortitude to get it going and assuming the
public holds them to it. Part of the problem is general lack of
understanding of the problem, which is very complex, requiring complex,
multi-faceted solutions. It is really easy to make things sound simple when
they're not.
Bruce In Bangkok
No the scales are not going to tip back and you, perhaps without
knowing it highlight the reason.
Why do you think that the wages aren't decent here? Because they
aren't the high wages paid in the U.S.? Health care? Thailand has what
is called the "30 baht medical plan". If you are a Thai citizen you go
down to a government hospital and see the doctor. You pay 30 baht
(currently $0.90) for the visit, including all medical care and
medicines. This could be, for example, the same hospital that treats
the King of Thailand.
The mantra, "oh they are working at slave labour rates" may sound like
the truth back there but if you are on the ground looking at it has an
entire different look to it. Wages in most of Asia are at an all time
high, the "workers" are taking home, what is to them, very nice
salaries, thank you very much and in addition their tax burden is far
lower both in real and relative terms than most other regions.
And, of course, the cost of living is lower here then it is there. A
normal workman's lunch time meal is in the neighborhood of 75 cents
here in Phuket which is, I might comment, the "Gold Coast" with higher
costs then in most other areas of Thailand.
Medical costs? I mentioned the 30 baht scheme which is for Thai
citizens however for the rest of us... I take a high blood pressure
medicine, an ACE inhibitor named ZESTRIL. I pay US$ 16.66 a box. I
just had a look at an on-line U.S. shop
(http://www.fdarxmeds.com/buy/online/Zestril.shtml)
selling the same stuff for $51.20.
My wife takes a similar type of medicine Blupress at $63.00 a box at
http://www.allrealmeds.com/atacand-brand-blopress-p-216.html
My cost here $26.00.
So you see, not only are your wages in the range of 25 or more times
the salaries are here but your entire infrastructure is mammothly more
expensive so any effort to compete seems to be doomed.
And I don't even want to start on the different tax burden in
countries outside the U.S.
>
> Now things are
>> different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in
>> Banglaore, India.
>
> Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back
>here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same
>cost.
>
> Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made
>> in one of those cheap foreign countries.
>
>Not everything.
Probably not everything. Lets say, "nearly everything".
>
>And if you think China will get away with keeping it's yeun at
>artifical low rates flooding our markets, Russia putting massive
>taffifs on imports.. 30% on cars for example, Indonesia requiring very
>expensive "Licences to import", India and Vietman just imposed massive
>tarrifs on steel....Dubia, Saudi.....ect...ect.......ect you are
>crazy. I know of many many companies bringing mfg back from China and
>the flood is just starting. It's like when Yamamoto said " I'm afraid
>we just awoke a sleeping giant."
Errr.. protective import duties are very much the norm in many places.
Certainly there is a valid argument that these type of tariffs
actually stifle the local development but never the less they
certainly exist. Re your 30% - Thailand has an import duty of 30% on
foreign made toilets. Protects the local (very well made, by the way)
sanitary ware makers.
Actually Yamamoto only said that in the movie... In fact historically
the navy admirals argued against a war with the U.S. It was the army
generals that promoted the attack on the U.S. After all they reckoned,
they had decisively beaten the Russians and the Chinese why not
America?
How do you determine that China's currency is artificially low? I
believe that the renminbi - dollar exchange rate has varied only
slightly in several years.
> Shrimp? the Thais can grow
>> shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then
>> you can fish them.
>
> Yeah and the Thais have no problem destroying an eco system if needed
>to get a fist full of greenbacks.
I don't think that anyone living in the U.S. should talk about
destroying an eco system. Or are you saying, "well, we destroyed ours
so we know what we are talking about"?
>>
>> Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the
>> Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what?
>> Over a thousand dollars and ounce?
>
> Ed McMahn will redeem all the green you have for gold......You've
>been gone to long Bruce.
I guess I've been gone too long. Who is "Ed McMahn"?
>>
>> It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never
>> going to change back.....
>>
> I learned to never say never.
>
>Salute,
>
>Joe
>
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bruce
>> (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
mmc
here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out
commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences
from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for
next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like
NY Taxi cabs plates.
---------
Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step
up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce
annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-)
----------
Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.
http://www.ccatexas.org
We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They
have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays
releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the
Redfish counted in the 70's.
-------------.
You helped and that is a good thing.
------------
I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.
Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many
many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we
have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to
get back to the good ol days
-------------
Sounds like PR spin dude. None of this was done out of corporate kindness or
any sense of responsibility. The government forced the oil company to clean
up thier act and shrimpers to use TEDs. I remember the whining by a lot of
FL shrimpers when the Gov made this a law.
--------------
I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look
at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something
has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the
fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next
generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with
most any species.
---------------
Hope you're right and I'm wrong.
---------------
In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the
time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever
seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000
different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in
the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped
a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into
Hector.
http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html
----------------
I was thier in '79 on the USS Harold E Holt (FF-1074). What an awesome
place.
One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked
a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while
discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE
hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector!
Too cool.
Joe
> here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out
> commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences
> from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for
> next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like
> NY Taxi cabs plates.
>
> ---------
>
> Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step
> up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce
> annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-)
>
> ----------
>
I was there 80-81 USS Samuel Gompers AD-37 during the Iran hostage
ordeal.
> One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked
> a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while
> discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE
> hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector!
> Too cool.
I never saw Hector, but swam with a ray that had about a 15 ft wing
span. A friend grabbed him by the gill and he sped off, his tail
cutting my leg (lower thigh) to the bone. For R&R the ship took a trip
to Mauritiuis just off the souther tip of Africa, a pretty cool place
as well. That was my second Wes-Pac.
This is the boat I was coxswain of at Deigo: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html
The sea scouts did a good job of fixin her up.
Joe
mmc
Joe
----------
I think the LY Spear was the tender there when our ship was and it was
during the Iran thing - we did blockade on "Gonzo Station".
Small world!
Sounds like a very nasty cut.
Definitely lot's of sharks inside the "foot", I saw a few swim by but not
the monsters. We heard a lot of shark stories from the SeaBees after losing
softball games to them. Those guys got pretty good stuck on Diego with
nothing else to do.
Our one liberty port in the IO was Mogadishu, back before it became such a
tourist hot spot.
Magnus
<decypher...@sig.line> shriecked:
>
>Medical costs? I mentioned the 30 baht scheme which is for Thai
>citizens however for the rest of us... I take a high blood pressure
>medicine, an ACE inhibitor named ZESTRIL. I pay US$ 16.66 a box. I
>just had a look at an on-line U.S. shop
>(http://www.fdarxmeds.com/buy/online/Zestril.shtml)
>selling the same stuff for $51.20.
>My wife takes a similar type of medicine Blupress at $63.00 a box at
>http://www.allrealmeds.com/atacand-brand-blopress-p-216.html
>My cost here $26.00.
>
U wanna say you cannot afford laxative in the US???
BTW U admit you R not allowed to buy anything against Alzheimer
disease and troll addiction?
How sad for ur relatives 'n the neighbourgh in the Bangkog dock!!!
>So you see, not only are your wages in the range of 25 or more times
>the salaries are here but your entire infrastructure is mammothly more
>expensive so any effort to compete seems to be doomed.
>
>And I don't even want to start on the different tax burden in
>countries outside the U.S.
Uhuu, especially when you're NOT on the right medication!!!!
;-)
Mort, proctologist of the usenet.
"Rather a poor guess as I came to Thailand 40-some years ago and have
a been married to the same (Thai) woman for 42 years. Have one son, a
daughter-in-law and two grand-kids (5 & 7) and have lived in our
present house since 2526. Prior to building this house we lived in a
purchased house in the same district for 9 years and before that in
various rented houses in different towns up-country. Now that you have
given us the benefit of your brilliant and penetrating insight into
the life and times of Good Soldier would you like to enlighten us
further about things in the Kingdom?"
Ravings on 2 Mar 2009, from the GSS senile troll of sct, aka
Bruce-in-Bangkok of rbc aka Gross Senile Soldier aka 'Borked Pseudo
Mailed' aka LardGay aka Brian aka...YAWN!!
Ala
> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:37:58 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
>
> >Medical costs? I mentioned the 30 baht scheme which is for Thai
> >citizens however for the rest of us... I take a high blood pressure
> >medicine, an ACE inhibitor named ZESTRIL. I pay US$ 16.66 a box. I
> >just had a look at an on-line U.S. shop
> >(http://www.fdarxmeds.com/buy/online/Zestril.shtml)
> >selling the same stuff for $51.20.
> >My wife takes a similar type of medicine Blupress at $63.00 a box at
> >http://www.allrealmeds.com/atacand-brand-blopress-p-216.html
> >My cost here $26.00.
>
> Aaargh!
> U wanna say you cannot afford laxative in the US???
> BTW U admit you R not allowed to buy anything against Alzheimer
> disease and troll addiction?
> How sad for ur relatives 'n the neighbourgh in the Bangkog dock!!!
I feel sorry for you
I only send you that stuff if I think it is interesting.
ELEVEN T WON
Kafe...@aol.com
nothing is like new but I really enjoy sailing it,
If you plan on selling your boat try to fix what you can, it will prep
you for your next project (And yes unless you buy new your next boat
will be a project) Even if its little fixes it still will help.
I don't like sea food so I'm for no fishing...lol (the wife would
slap me over this)
I have the perfect boat because I've been able to sail a season for
very little invested and if it works out we find something that we can
live aboard I would never say mine was a mistake by any aspect.
If you don't learn anything more then what to look for next time.
Mario
S/V "Don't Wake Me"