Red Hawk or Broad Winged Hawk
Tony Tontodonato
to see a hawk flying about 20' over my yard. I am in Adelphi, MD, USA
at the top of a knoll near I-95 and I-495.
We had moved our feeder closer to the house and were watching
out the window when the fun started about 30' away.
There were two black birds, probably grackles, who were flying at
a hawk and harassing it. The hawk had about a 3' wingspan. The
underside of the body and wings was white. When the hawk dodged
the other way, I saw that the top of the wings and body was brown.
The three flew past the house and out of sight.
I guess I can't find out what type of hawk I saw due to the
lack of information. It was exciting nonetheless.
On another note, I've been regularly watching a red-bellied woodpecker,
two downy woodpeckers and a hairy woodpeckers in the oak trees out back.
One tree is 60-100' tall. When snowing, my cheap binoculars make it
hard to tell the gender of the downy even after 20 straight minutes.
We have 1-2' of snow, so I shoveled down to the grass and
threw food around the feeder. We have 2 pairs of cardinals, chickadees,
tufted titmice, grackles, Euro. starling, sparrows, blue jays, nuthatch,
and the downy woodpeckers to watch out the window during the snow.
Tony Tontodonato (email to to...@micros.com)
Adelphi, MD USA
zee
The "hawk" you saw was probably an immature accipiter ( coopers,sharpshin,
and goshawk) or a quite small male red tail.(it is hard to tell with
the lack of info.) Immature accipiters are whitish below and brown
above,red tails are the same. What did the wings look like in relation
to the body? Long and rounded,short and rounded,long and pointed,
long and crooked looking,short and crookes looking? If you can relay
the wing shape I can probbably give a better assumtion.
Aaron Zee
Steven Mumford
Gun shy
Steve in S.Fla.
smum...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/2380/
zee
in that state? As close to immpossible as you can get. (to see a wild
broad winged hawk) If he was in Peru,or south florida,yes but not
where he/she is.
Aaron Zee
Tony Tontodonato
today, my wife saw it land in the big oak tree. We got to watch it
for several minutes and compare it to the book. We took a picture
through a not-enough-zoom camera. (See this speck on the branch...?)
It the went to another branch and gave us the back view. I'm so excited.
Tony in Adelphi, MD, USA.
zee
The assumtion of a broad winged hawk is incorrect. It is next to
impossible to see a broad winged hawk at this time of year in your
area. Most of them are in central America at this time,though there
are some in sothern Florida. Look again because that is not a broad
winged hawk unless it is tame. Again I think it is an immature accipiter
(they are brown when immature) or a small male red tail. Now if this is
a broad winged hawk for sure,get audobon,peterson,national news out
there to report it because it would be a huge deal. You can not tell
the species of hawk by commparing it to a picture in a book,you have
to know *exactly* what to look for. If you wan't to know post an article
asking for them,I would be happy to tell you.
Aaron Zee
Steven Mumford
>It was a Broad Winged Hawk all right. While watching out the window
>today, my wife saw it land in the big oak tree. We got to watch it
>for several minutes and compare it to the book. We took a picture
>through a not-enough-zoom camera. (See this speck on the branch...?)
>It the went to another branch and gave us the back view. I'm so excited.
>
>Tony in Adelphi, MD, USA.
Hah! :)
--
Charles W. Cook
this time of year in Maryland. (A Gyrfalcon is about as likely.) Check
out Red-shouldered or Cooper's Hawks. Nothing can be ruled out (or in)
based on your description.
--
Charles W. "Will" Cook
cwc...@acpub.duke.edu 919-541-2890
Duke University Botany Dept., Durham, North Carolina
Tony Tontodonato
Thanks for the reply. My Golden book says the Broad-Winged Hawk should be
here in the summer. The long 2nd visit by the hawk let us observe these
characteristics:
A) With the bird facing us:
1) Brown chest with darker brown, narrow, 1" long, vertical marks spaced
about 1" apart all over the chest.
2) Dark tail with 2 wide concentric, white, horizontal stripes.
3) Dark brown head.
B) With the bird facing away from us:
1) Black feathers above the tail.
2) The rest of the wings are brown.
C) In flight:
1) The underside of the wings are white.
2) The wing tips are black.
3) The two wings together look like a big oval with the
front side being straight.
4) The wingspan is about 3'.
I looked at the Gyrfalcon in my Golden book. The book says this is an
artic bird. The shape of the wings and tail coloration doesn't match
the bird I saw. I'm 99% sure I have a Broad-Winged Hawk here.
Thanks to everyone for their help. I hope my photograph comes out.
Tony
Daan Sandee
>It was a Broad Winged Hawk all right. While watching out the window
>today, my wife saw it land in the big oak tree. We got to watch it
>for several minutes and compare it to the book. We took a picture
>through a not-enough-zoom camera. (See this speck on the branch...?)
>It the went to another branch and gave us the back view. I'm so excited.
>
>Tony in Adelphi, MD, USA.
There are very few winter records of Broad-winged Hawks in North America.
You should call the hotline at 301-652-1088 to report it. Unfortunately,
you have very little chance of being believed.
Daan Sandee san...@think.com
Burlington, MA
Tony Tontodonato
Tony Tontodonato
zee
Tony,I've got several ideas (which does not include broad winged hawk)
but want some more info before I start coming to conclusion. So,I
will ask some questions.
Wing shape:long and rounded,short and rounded,long and pointed,
long and crooked looking,short and crooked looking? The way to tell
is when in flight,look at the wins in relation to the body,a kestrel
wing span may be only 21 in., but that is long in relation to it's
body. (being nearly twice as long as it's body) How long do you think
it is from head tail? What kind of habitat is near by:water,coniferous
forests,oak forests,fields,marshes. If you have good binouculars,get
the color of the eye,it can be tremendous help. Does it have red patches
on the outer "shoulder" of the wing?
If you can answer these questions,or at least half,I will give you
a 99% sure answer.
Aaron Zee
Karen J. Cravens
>The assumtion of a broad winged hawk is incorrect. It is next to
>impossible to see a broad winged hawk at this time of year in your
>area. Most of them are in central America at this time,though there
>are some in sothern Florida. Look again because that is not a broad
>winged hawk unless it is tame. Again I think it is an immature accipiter
>(they are brown when immature) or a small male red tail. Now if this is
>a broad winged hawk for sure,get audobon,peterson,national news out
>there to report it because it would be a huge deal. You can not tell
>the species of hawk by commparing it to a picture in a book,you have
>to know *exactly* what to look for. If you wan't to know post an article
>asking for them,I would be happy to tell you.
Well, that's it. Zee says it can't be a broad-winged (note the
hyphen, Aaron), and he's always right. Must be something else.
Of course, my Peterson's says it's "casual in winter north of Fla."
Doesn't sound like an occasion to get the national news out there to
me.
Silver
(I suspect rough-legged, myself.)
--........................................................................
Because we live within a stone's throw of each other is no reason we
should throw stones at each other. -- Rabbi Stephen S. Wise
zee
Hmmm... Sounds to me like he's a long way from southern Florida...
If you recall correctly I said that some winter there...You are an
odd person...If you recall I've admited I was wrong before...You
assume too much... What's your point?...
Aaron Zee
Daan Sandee
|>
|> Thanks for the reply. My Golden book says the Broad-Winged Hawk should be
|> here in the summer. The long 2nd visit by the hawk let us observe these
|> characteristics:
|>
|> A) With the bird facing us:
|>
|> 1) Brown chest with darker brown, narrow, 1" long, vertical marks spaced
|> about 1" apart all over the chest.
|> 2) Dark tail with 2 wide concentric, white, horizontal stripes.
|> 3) Dark brown head.
You will note (Golden Guide, p.75) that the adult BW has wide, contrasting
tail bars and a rusty barred chest, and the immature has narrow tail bars
and a brown streaked chest. The combination you describe does not occur
(normally) on BW.
Molt sequences in raptors are very complicated and I don't have any
information on BWHA specifically, but I would assume that it would molt
body and tail in fall, and flight feathers throughout a large part of the
year interrupted by migration. It is true that a BW in North America in
winter is screwed up anyway - the bird must have been sick to miss migration
and its normal molt pattern may have been disrupted - but I find it hard to
believe that any BW in January would have a complete adult tail and an
immature body pattern.
Now it is very difficult to confuse barring and streaking on the breast, so
I assume it was indeed streaked. If it must be a BW, it must have narrow
indistinct tail bars. If it had, that immediately opens the field to more
reasonable candidates, such as Red-shouldered Hawk and Red-tailed Hawk.
|> B) With the bird facing away from us:
|> 1) Black feathers above the tail.
|> 2) The rest of the wings are brown.
|>
|> C) In flight:
|> 1) The underside of the wings are white.
|> 2) The wing tips are black.
|> 3) The two wings together look like a big oval with the
|> front side being straight.
|> 4) The wingspan is about 3'.
All this looks good, but does not help much except in eliminating falcons
(pointy wings) and adult accipiters (blue-gray upperparts.)
|> I looked at the Gyrfalcon in my Golden book. The book says this is an
|> artic bird. The shape of the wings and tail coloration doesn't match
|> the bird I saw. I'm 99% sure I have a Broad-Winged Hawk here.
Do not let that reference to Gyrfalcon confuse you. I understood that
to be a reference to the probability. As everyone knows, a Gyr in your
backyard is about as likely as a giraffe. (However, I would sooner
believe a Gyr report, because they are notoriously rare and difficult to
identify, and therefore usually reported by experienced observers, whereas
BWHA is notoriously misidentified. On the other hand, Gyrs don't show up
in suburbs, whereas Broad-winged Hawks might.) My references say that
there are *no* records of Gyr in Maryland and *no* winter records of BWHA,
but that may be incomplete (I have a vague memory of a Gyr some winters
back.)
Assuming the tail bars were wide and obvious, the obvious answer is an
immature Cooper's Hawk. It is one of the most common hawks to see in
suburban areas.
So did you get any response from the people behind the RBA ? (I have no idea
what happens when you call that number, but I assume there is a way to leave
a message.)
Tony Tontodonato
people telling me what to look for. Ever since we've moved the bird feeder and
attracted more birds, the hawk has come by to scope things out.
While I was out shoveling yet another 6" of new snow, my wife said the hawk was back.
I ran out in the yard with my little 100mm zoom camera and, with the bird about 40' up
in the oak, took some photos: two on the branch and two in flight. I saw more stripes on the
underside of the tail this time during flight. My wife inside had the binoculars; I couldn't
look for identifying marks people here have have suggested. (There was snow falling on the
camera and me.)
I'll post anonymously an email I was sent privately:
<snip>
Good luck with your photos, though the likelihood is that it is not a Broad-wing. Actually,
based on the time of year and the habits of the species, it is more likely to be the gyrfalcon!
It sounds like your bird is one of the accipiters in immature plumage.
It's only the adult broadwing that has white bars on the tail, and they don't have brown breast
streaks. Rather, the adult breast is barred robin-red.
Other possibilities based on the barred tail: Immature Red-shouldered hawk, adult rough-legged
(much more variable than pictures in books suggest), any of the three accipiters (sharp-shinned,
cooper's, goshawk), female Northern Harrier.
Let me know what you discover. If it IS a broad-wing, it's worth putting on the rare-bird
alerts, 'cuz that's a _great_ bird for the season (almost unheard of). Also, if it is, and you
report it, you will likely take derision from the birding cognoscenti... unfortunately.
<snip>
Don Wilkins
>-=Tony Tontodonato <to...@micros.com> wrote:
>-=>
>-=> It was a Broad Winged Hawk all right. While watching out the window
>-=> today, my wife saw it land in the big oak tree. We got to watch it
>-=> for several minutes and compare it to the book. We took a picture
>-=> through a not-enough-zoom camera. (See this speck on the branch...?)
>-=> It the went to another branch and gave us the back view. I'm so excited.
>-=>
>-=> Tony in Adelphi, MD, USA.
>-=
>-=
>-=The assumtion of a broad winged hawk is incorrect. It is next to
>-=impossible to see a broad winged hawk at this time of year in your
>-=area. Most of them are in central America at this time,though there
>-=are some in sothern Florida. Look again because that is not a broad
>-=winged hawk unless it is tame. Again I think it is an immature accipiter
>-=(they are brown when immature) or a small male red tail. Now if this is
>-=a broad winged hawk for sure,get audobon,peterson,national news out
>-=there to report it because it would be a huge deal. You can not tell
>-=the species of hawk by commparing it to a picture in a book,you have
>-=to know *exactly* what to look for. If you wan't to know post an article
>-=asking for them,I would be happy to tell you.
>-=
>-= Aaron Zee
Just about a year ago I took some excellent photos of a bird at a
feeder here in Northern MN. It was the middle of the winter, the
temperature was 17 below zero, and there was over a foot of snow on
the ground. The bird was eating sunflower seeds. I have been tempted
to put the description of that bird in this group with the above
information and ask for an ID but have resisted that temptation. I not
only had photos with a zoom but I have been a licensed bander for over
thirty-five years. The bird was a varied thrush. I wonder how many
people would have told me that it was impossible to have a varied
thrush in northern MN in the winter.
Give the guy a break. Birds are out of range frequently. Having said
that the thing to do when you get one of these strangers is (1) take
good pictures and (2) get a person who knows birds for a second
opinion.
_ _ _ Für d' Flöh gibts a Pulver
(_| | |_/o | | | | o für d' Schuach gibts a Wix,
| | | | | | | _ _ , für'n Durst gibts a Wasser
| | | | |/ |/_) | / |/ | / \_ bloss fuer d' Dummheit gibts nix.
\_/ \_/ |_/|__/| \_/|_/ | |_/ \/
Karen J. Cravens
>rave...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
> Hmmm... Sounds to me like he's a long way from southern Florida...
Casual in winter north of Florida. Doesn't say "north Florida," or
how far "north OF Florida." They summer over a very broad range, so
if a particular bird decided not to migrate - it happens - it's
going to be wherever it happened to be. It's as likely that one in
Massachusetts will decide not to migrate as it is that one in
Georgia will.
>If you recall correctly I said that some winter there...You are an
>odd person...If you recall I've admited I was wrong before...You
>assume too much... What's your point?...
You're coming across as an arrogant know-it-all, that's my point.
One would think that, having been so thoroughly chastised for being
wrong, you'd be a little more cautious in future. Note that most of
us, even the professionals, generally hedge our statements with
"It's likely that" and such, rather than coming on like a fire-and-
brimstone preacher. Lighten up, o specialist.
Silver
--........................................................................
Language makes culture, and we make a rotten culture when we abuse
words. -- Cynthia Ozick
Tony Tontodonato
A photo of the hawk that had just left a branch shows
that the wings are translucent: I can see branches on the other
side of the wings.
In the same photo, the tail is 1/4th pie-slice shaped ,
1-2"+ wide black at end, then white stripe 20% that width,
then more black.
Overhead flight displayed several stripes on tail.
In tree, chest color was light, between tan and medium brown.
Going to borrow a zoom video camera. Tell me if I'm a pest.
Tony
--
Tony Tontodonato (to...@micros.com)
Adelphi, MD USA
Terry Ross
immature Red-shouldered Hawk (if the hawk were a Broad-wing, the white
stripes in the tail would be proportionately larger than they are in
Tony's description).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry Ross Visit the BALTIMORE BIRD CLUB
Baltimore MD http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~tross/baltbird.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
zee
You know,I think your point is baised on nothing.
Aaron Zee
Karen J. Cravens
>You know,I think your point is baised on nothing.
^based
It's based on nothing you want to hear, is what you mean.
Silver
--........................................................................
There is an art of reading, as well as an art of thinking, and an
art of writing. -- Isaac D'Israeli
zee
>
> > Nothing can be ruled out (or in) based on your description.
> > Charles W. "Will" Cook
> > cwc...@acpub.duke.edu 919-541-2890
>
> here in the summer. The long 2nd visit by the hawk let us observe these
> characteristics:
>
> A) With the bird facing us:
>
> 1) Brown chest with darker brown, narrow, 1" long, vertical marks spaced
> about 1" apart all over the chest.
> 2) Dark tail with 2 wide concentric, white, horizontal stripes.
> 3) Dark brown head.
>
>
> 1) Black feathers above the tail.
> 2) The rest of the wings are brown.
>
> C) In flight:
>
> 1) The underside of the wings are white.
> 2) The wing tips are black.
> 3) The two wings together look like a big oval with the
> front side being straight.
> 4) The wingspan is about 3'.
>
> artic bird. The shape of the wings and tail coloration doesn't match
> the bird I saw. I'm 99% sure I have a Broad-Winged Hawk here.
>
>
> Tony
sounds exactly like an adult red shouldered hawk to me. One of the things
that set's it apart from thae broad winged {besides being *highly
unlikely* in Maryland at this time of year (is that better) } is that
you say it has 2 inch vertical brown marks on a darker chest,while the
broad winged has 2 inch *horizontal* marks on a relativly light chest.
The red shouldered has translusent "marks" on the wing as stated,the
bw does not have very apparent tranlusentsy on the wings like that
of red shouldered.The thing that set's it apart from an immature red
shouldered is that immature have a "mottled" brown upper chest that
is set on white.You say the bird you saw has vertical brown streaks
on a slightly darker upper chest.The red shouldered meets the observation of
3' wing span. If your observation(s), are as they are,it is
immpossi..,well let's just say that's no broad wing. The immature
accipiters (coopers,sharp shin,and goshawk) are brown and white,but
they have 2 inch brown vertical marks on a *white* chest,unlike on
a dark chest as in the bird you saw. I'm pretty sure that was adult
red shouldered hawk.(if your observations are correct)
Aaron Zee
Tony Tontodonato
out the window (including several fly overs,) I taped (6X at 70' with
mono viewfinder) about 2 minutes of the hawk in the tree while my wife
observed with 10x50 binoculars. Before I could get outside, it flew off.
She said it looks like the Red Shouldered Hawk pictured in the
Nat'l Audobon Soc. Field Guide to N.A. Birds Eastern Region. (pp330)
The translucent wings from yesterday's photo go along with this
bird's characteristics.
The gusting wind blowing the birds feathers around helped a bit.
Thanks for everyone's help. If I get any really good photos, I'll
scan them. Rebuttals are always welcomed.
Tony
zee
Karen,thank very much for correcting my puntuation mistakes, (note I
did not correct it here) in my mind "proper" english is how I want
to see it,not how my old english teacher did. If I say it's spelled
englesh,all the more power to me. I think everyone in this newsgroup
has always understood what I said,despite me not spelling or puntuating
the way they want me to.
Anyways I don't think you have a true point that is based on fact,all
is based on opinion and what you interpet. If you think I act arogant
and think I know it all,all the more power to you. If that's the way
you interpet it fine. I DO NOT intend to act arogant and I think I
have much to learn about diurnal raptors. If you change your thought you
may see as non arogant.
Aaron Zee
<the way you interpet words is not
always the way the other person
wishes you to> Aaron Zee,1996
EBTRAMMELL
club?
Don Wilkins on 1/12 suggests to "give the guy a break". I agree, this is
rec. birds not pro.birds. I come here to relax and learn a little more
about one of my favorite hobbies.
Happy birding!
ebtrammell
let it snow let it snow let it snow
Laura Johnson
: In article <4d8rm8$e...@news-f.iadfw.net>, zee <z...@airmail.net> wrote:
: >You know,I think your point is baised on nothing.
: ^spaces after punctuation
: ^based
: It's based on nothing you want to hear, is what you mean.
Please take this, uh, sub-thread to email. I don't think this is helping the
guy identify his hawk.
--
Laura Johnson | Everything should be made as simple
lau...@fc.hp.com | as possible, but no simpler.
Hewlett Packard NSMD | - Albert Einstein
Ft. Collins, CO |
Tony Tontodonato
I saw white crescents on the undersides of the ends of the wings.
The crows/grackels chased a Sharp-shinned or Cooper's hawk into our
tree today. They either wanted him to go away or they wanted his snake.
Tony Tontodonato (Adelphi, MD I-95 @ I-495)
zee
It is pretty unlikely to see a sharp shinned hawk or coopoers carrying
a snake.(or catching) Stomach analisis (spelling police?) has revealed
that some coopers and sharpshins diet consists of 99% avian prey.
They have been seen taking rodents and reptiles before,but that was
probably because of a shortage in birds.Yes,it could be one of the two
you above,but it is petty unlikely.What were the markings like?
Wing shape? you should know all the questions by now.I'm willing to
bet it was that red shouldered.
Aaron Zee
Tony Tontodonato
> a snake.
With the flight silhouette showing that the head doesn't extend much
past the wings (wrists?,) this smaller hawk is probably a Sharp Shinned
hawk. Apparently there is a 1' cord tied to its ankle.
It was in our tree briefly today again, as was a similar hawk sans
ankle cord.
The red-shouldered hawks were soaring together overhead this morning.
--
Tony Tontodonato (Adelphi, MD I-95 & I-495)
email: to...@micros.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/tonto
zee
It could be a snake,(unlikely to see with a sharp shin) but I doubt
this raptor would have a snake in it's talon's every time you see it,
esspecially in winter.If some snakes are still out,it would be far
more likely that this is the red shoulder,notorious snake eaters.If
it was a bird that had been used in falconry,and realesed,the falconer
would have taken everthing of,and even if they didn't,there is no 1'
cord that falconers attatch to the raptors in their care.It would be my
assumtion that this bird is entangled in something,cord,rope,wire.It
could already be impaeding it's hunting skills.First,I would make sure
that this is a cord or foreign object,then I would call the closest raptor
rehabilitator and tell them about your situation.The rehabilitator
will either come out and trap it,or will tell you someone who can.
(I'm not sure about who is allowed to do this,anyone else?) They will
come out and trap the raptor,and should have the cord off in minutes.Then
they will release the bird.
Aaron Zee
D. Grier
: it was a bird that had been used in falconry,and realesed,the falconer
: would have taken everthing of,and even if they didn't,there is no 1'
: cord that falconers attatch to the raptors in their care.It would be my
Falconers leave jesses on their birds when they fly them.
Another posting questioned if it was a falconer's bird, would they be too
embarrassed to admit they lost a bird? Doubtful, as it happens all the
time. The only time they wouldn't want to admit it would be if the bird
was illegally in their possesion.
Doug.
zee
might be dangerous to the bird,plus,not many falconers use red shoudlers.
Aaron Zee