Flip chain: double life
Wayne Pein
Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain
when it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says,
"you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will now
be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the
chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that Shimano
engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
Any credence to this crud?
Wayne
Ken
> Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain
> when it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says,
> "you will double your chain life."
If that is true, you can probably increase chain life even more by regularly
flipping your chain over. People who clean their chain by removing it and
soaking it (and reinstalling it randomly one way or the other) have been
doing this for years.
Peter Cole
news:403BA345...@nc.rr.com...
Flipping it doesn't change the pitch, and that's the only important thing.
Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles
I don't understand this. We've long-ago determined that chains don't
stretch as in the metal elongating; rather, the internal parts of the chain
wear, producing slack that elongates the chain as a whole. What is it about
this wear that would be changed by flipping the chain?
At its simplest, a chain displays its wear when you lay it out on a table
and measure its length. Obviously, it doesn't matter which side you lay it
on, the length is the same. So if flipping a chain over improves chain
life, there's an implication that an elongated chain is not the only thing
affecting performance.
There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement, since flipping a chain
over, half-way through its wear cycle, should at best allow it to go 1.5
times normal life (since in its flipped-over state, you can't do better than
it would starting from new, unless flipping it somehow rejuvenates it into
something better than new!).
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
"Wayne Pein" <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:403BA345...@nc.rr.com...
Harris
Wayne Stetina said that??!! Shimano engineers discovered this by accident?
Wow! I guess April 1st is closer than I thought!
Art Harris
Tom Nakashima
" In other words, your chain will now be turned inside out."???
-tom
"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote
in message news:iWO_b.16746$kT2....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
WTF,O
rollers turn. My derailleur "laterally bends the chain the opposite
direction" already, since I shift through the gears in both directions.
Chains don't "stretch" anyway. They elongate due to wear on the rivets
mostly.
Turning the chain around and allowing the non-worn side of the rivets to
wear will double the service life.
(see below)
Gotcha! It won't really.
Cal
WTF,O
"Harris" <aha...@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in message
news:8aP_b.7129$5M.2...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
Party-pooper.
Cal
onefred
I was skeptical and about to post some worthless, joking crap like I always
do but then I began to think about it and it does make sense. See, the wear
really occurs as the chain bends over the top of the cassette cog and then
over the top of the chainring. THis is where all the stress is. If you
flip your chain over, these same two spots are using the reverse side of the
chain. They would share some of the worn area but for the most part fresh
chain is being used. Yes, I believe Wayne @ Shimano has a valid point,
Wayne.
Hmm, I guess this means that I've tossed several perfectly good chains.
Dave
Tad Borek
That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies
to tires. Unless you ride backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're
only wearing out the fronts of your tires.
I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn
out, and I am able to ride twice as long.
I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to
move the drivetrain to the left side and that of course is not possible.
-T.Borek, BSME
carlfogel
Dear Wayne,
Oh, what a fool I've been!
By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn out,
I'll try measuring it from the other end.
Carl Fogel
--
onefred
news:XUS_b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usenetserver.com...
It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by
seeing how far each side wrap around a cylinder.
Dave
meb
"This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll."
Maybe with an poorly oiled chain they don't roll. Anyone got a neglected
chain they can measure both ways?
The pins don't roll, so one would expect more wear on one side.
Since the pins are made of harder materials though, it would seem
the chain has long since passed its useful life before measurable
differences appear.
--
carlfogel
> "carlfogel" <usenet...@cyclingforums.com> wrote in message news:XUS_-
> b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usenetserver.comnews:XUS_b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usen-
Dear Dave,
I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain
(about 1.4%) both ways around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable
drum on a flat surface.
The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still
matched as closely as I could align them.
This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.
It seems unlikely that any difference in length could be observed by
wrapping the chain around gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch
apart, even during wear.
Carl Fogel
--
Jim Adney
Sounds pretty unlikely to me. The wear in a bike chain does not occur
where the sprocket teeth contact it.
It occurs between the rivets and the bushings inside, as a result of
the tension in the chainwhile the chain is bending. While the bending
would be in different directions, leading to slight offset in the wear
patch, I would expect the difference to be slight, and certainly not a
factor of 2.
-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
carlfogel
Dear Meb,
A chain with any rollers that fail to roll under the urging of your finger-
tip is presumably a chain that needs to be replaced.
Worn rollers roll more easily, not less--indeed, they rattle.
It would seem hopeless to try to extend the life of a chain whose
rollers are rusted solid by flipping it, reversing it, cleaning it, or
praying to strange gods.
Carl Fogel
--
Andre
will, in effect, "tighten" the chain back to new length (12 inches rivet to
rivet).
--
--------------------------
Andre Charlebois
BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+
webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick
www.TriNB.com
"onefred" <datay...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:403c0b30$0$13233$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net...
meb
"A chain with any rollers that fail to roll under the urging of your finger-
tip is presumably a chain that needs to be replaced."
Definitely-but rusty chains exist on rideable bikes.
"Worn rollers roll more easily, not less"
Not necessarily under tension, and particularly if rusty or dirty.
"--indeed, they rattle." Yep.
"It would seem hopeless to try to extend the life of a chain whose
rollers are rusted solid by flipping it, reversing it, cleaning it, or
praying to strange gods."
The OP's chain guru seems to differ on all counts.
Since we've exhausted practical scenarios, let's see if there is a grain
of validity in some scenario of dubious practicallity before we dismiss
the hypothesis as bunk. ;)
--
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Careful or you won't get a Xmas card from shimano USA next year. >><BR><BR>
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
onefred
But Carl, Wayne never said to use a badly worn chain, only one that's
"halfway" worn. To me this means a slightly worn chain that is still quite
useable. Using a badly worn chain I don't doubt your findings.
Dave
Werehatrack
may have said:
>carlfogel said:
>
>"This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll."
>
>Maybe with an poorly oiled chain they don't roll. Anyone got a neglected
>chain they can measure both ways?
As a matter of fact, there's a bike in the salvage pile with a
neglected chain. It had no master link, so I suspect the chain had
never been off until just now. It measured 1.1mm longer than a brand
new chain between the two most widely separated links my calipers
could reach. Flipping it over produced the exact same result.
>The pins don't roll, so one would expect more wear on one side.
Why? There is *no significant tension* on the part of the chain that
is on the curve of the sprockets. Wear will occur where there is high
load or *unlubricated* motion. If the chain is reasonably well lubed,
the flexing of the chain as it goes around the sprockets should
produce little or no wear. All of the tension of pedalling is
transmitted along the top *straight* run of the chain between the
tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth
delivering the load at the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the
chain is flipped, the load is on the same place on each link and pin.
(I will note that there is actually a slight skewing to the inside on
the wear due to the fact that as the sprockets turn, the load may be
on a pin whose link has not yet fully rotated into alignment with the
top run...but this *small* skewing is not enough to make a flipped
chain "fit like new" when it was worn out as measured.)
>Since the pins are made of harder materials though, it would seem
>the chain has long since passed its useful life before measurable
>differences appear.
The wear is hard to measure at a single link, but that's why it's
measured for aggregate total over a long section. I suspect that if
the originator of the topic was checking for chain lift availability
at the front of the chainring as a (false) measure of chain wear,
there may have appeared to be a difference when the chain was first
flipped. I also suspect that as soon as the chain was ridden a
distance, driving the dirt out of the links, the difference would have
vanished.
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
David Damerell
>produce little or no wear. All of the tension of pedalling is
>transmitted along the top *straight* run of the chain between the
>tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth
>delivering the load at the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the
>chain is flipped, the load is on the same place on each link and pin.
Obviously the answer is some sort of mechanism that gradually replaces
this run of chain with the fresh bottom run. Perhaps it could propel the
bicycle as well?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
John Dacey
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:22:36 GMT, Tad Borek <bor...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
>That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies
>to tires. Unless you ride backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're
>only wearing out the fronts of your tires.
>
>I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn
>out, and I am able to ride twice as long.
>
>I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to
>move the drivetrain to the left side and that of course is not possible.
What's facetious for one can be factual for another. The tires of
track racers wear at a much-accelerated rate on their right sides
because of velodrome banking. Dual-threaded rear track hubs came not
so much to give oxymoronic gear options to fixed-gear road riders; but
rather to allow track racers to reverse the direction of their wheels
and thereby extend the useful life of their tires without having to
remove and readhere an assymetrically worn tubular tire to its rim.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Now in our twenty-first year.
Our catalogue of track equipment: eighth year online.
http://www.businesscycles.com
g.daniels
with eternal truths thereon.
One will read out into the synapses:
A) machinery is engineered to have parallel bearing surfaces. all wear
is uneven. bearing surfaces entropy.
B) bearing surfaces seat in seat in seat in seat in. thus reducing
wear. a gift from Zeuss.
C)if the chain is turned around, then the mechanic lays an egg. until
all the surfaces readjust to the new direction. wearing as they go.
the canoeists get a chip that sez "this way up."
Werehatrack
<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> may have said:
>Werehatrack <rau...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>>produce little or no wear. All of the tension of pedalling is
>>transmitted along the top *straight* run of the chain between the
>>tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth
>>delivering the load at the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the
>>chain is flipped, the load is on the same place on each link and pin.
>
>Obviously the answer is some sort of mechanism that gradually replaces
>this run of chain with the fresh bottom run. Perhaps it could propel the
>bicycle as well?
Migod, what a concept! A continuously recycling system! No, wait,
then it would all wear out at once...
Tad Borek
> What's facetious for one can be factual for another. The tires of
> track racers wear at a much-accelerated rate on their right sides
> because of velodrome banking. Dual-threaded rear track hubs came not
> so much to give oxymoronic gear options to fixed-gear road riders; but
> rather to allow track racers to reverse the direction of their wheels
> and thereby extend the useful life of their tires without having to
> remove and readhere an assymetrically worn tubular tire to its rim.
OK so that's reason #5 I'm glad for ordering that PW flip-flop hub from
you...at least until Hellyer adopts a rule to reverse the direction of
travel every other week. =)
-Tad
ps the 32's in the mail
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> All of the tension of pedalling is transmitted along the top
>>> *straight* run of the chain between the tooth bearing the load at
>>> the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth delivering the load at
>>> the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the chain is flipped, the
>>> load is on the same place on each link and pin.
>> Obviously the answer is some sort of mechanism that gradually
>> replaces this run of chain with the fresh bottom run. Perhaps it
>> could propel the bicycle as well?
> Migod, what a concept! A continuously recycling system! No, wait,
> then it would all wear out at once...
Ounds like the Deacon's Masterpiece:
http://www.williamson-labs.com/one-hoss-shay.htm
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Christopher Brian Colohan
degrees on one side of the break, and reconnected it. I did this so
that the twist is on the bottom run, so it is not in tension.
Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I expect it will last forever.
Is this true?
Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: ch...@colohan.ca PGP: finger col...@cs.cmu.edu
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751
DiabloScott
Of course not. For one chain revolution the rollers will be getting
farther apart, but since the chain will be inverted on the next
revolution the teeth will be pushing the rollers in the opposite
direction (as one looks at it) and the rollers will get closer together.
On second thought - yes, you're right!
--
Tim McNamara
> Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote in
> news:403BA345...@nc.rr.com:
>
> > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the
> > chain when it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says,
> > "you will double your chain life."
>
> If that is true, you can probably increase chain life even more by
> regularly flipping your chain over. People who clean their chain by
> removing it and soaking it (and reinstalling it randomly one way or
> the other) have been doing this for years.
It's not true. And if you think about it for a minute or two, you
will realize why it could not be true.
Carl Fogel
Dear Dave,
My guess is that if the strange wear pattern suggested
in this thread doesn't show up on a badly worn chain,
then it won't show up on a slightly worn chain, either.
You can test this a fortiori theory by removing your
current chain, wrapping it around any large circular
object on a garage floor, and marking where the start
and finish pins end up with a fine-point sharpie. I
used a handy cable spool, but a plastic bucket lid will
do nicely. Flip the chain over and see where the pins end
up. A chain worn to 1/32" per foot is mildly worn and would
be 3/32" longer than a new chain over 36 links, an easily
noticed difference.
I expect that, after flipping, any chain's length will be
indistinguishable over a three foot span. It's necessary
to flip and measure the same 36 links, since there are in
fact measurable wear differences between different sections
of the same chain.
If I'm wrong, then someone should be able to draw a quick
free-hand diagram of either a bushed or bushingless chain
showing an asymmetrical wear pattern that would somehow
change a chain's length (or some more subtle dimension)
when curved one way and then reversed.
Here's a link to a chain diagram to get the artists started:
http://www.vikinginternational.com/about.htm
I'd be glad to host any pictures, whether they make sense
to me or not--just email me.
Carl Fogel
Rick Onanian
> > Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I expect it will last forever. Is
> > this true?
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:50:53 GMT, DiabloScott
<NOSPAMdi...@terra.es> wrote:
>Of course not. For one chain revolution the rollers will be getting
>farther apart, but since the chain will be inverted on the next
>revolution the teeth will be pushing the rollers in the opposite
>direction (as one looks at it) and the rollers will get closer together.
>
>On second thought - yes, you're right!
The stress of being so twisted will probably produce copious amounts
of wear, likely a different type of wear than normal, and destroy
the chain quickly.
Not so bad, maybe, on a long-run recumbent.
--
Rick Onanian
stu
"Wayne Pein" <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:403BA345...@nc.rr.com...
> from velonews.com
>
> Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain
> when it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says,
> "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will now
> be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
> contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the
> chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that Shimano
> engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
>
> Any credence to this crud?
>
> Wayne
is to press all of the pins out turn them 180 and press them back in
of course this would only work on cheaper chains
sure sounds like a fun any to spend an afternoon lol
stu
Greg Estep
"Tad Borek" <bor...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:01R_b.2254$sC6...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn
> out, and I am able to ride twice as long.
>
> I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to
> move the drivetrain to the left side and that of course is not possible.
You could always simply remove and remount the tire. Since you're doubling
the tire life you wouldn't be increasing the labor involved in replacing
worn tires, but you would be saving money on tires!!
Personally, I would never do this because I like the thrill of buying
rubber(s). :-)
Yeah, yeah, I know. This is a family group.
--
Greg Estep
Greg Estep
> Onefred wrote:
> > "carlfogel" <usenet...@cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
news:XUS_-
> >
b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usenetserver.comnews:XUS_b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usen-
> > etserver.com...
> > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths
> > by seeing how far each side wrap around a cylinder.
> > Dave
> I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain
> (about 1.4%) both ways around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable
> drum on a flat surface.
>
> The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still
> matched as closely as I could align them.
Are you sure that the chain lived its entire life in a single orientation?
Maybe it was flipped, possibly inadvertently, during some maintenance
procedure. If you aren't sure, then you may have introduced an invalid
point into the discussion.
BTW, just to be clear, I have no belief that flipping the chain has any
effect that even remotely approximates doubling its life.
--
Greg Estep
<see headers for anti-spammed email address>
Chris Zacho The Wheelman
>That is 100.0% correct about the rollers,
>and the same principle applies to tires.
>Unless you ride backwards frequently, as
>on a unicycle, you're only wearing out
>the fronts of your tires.
>I flip my front wheel around when the tire
>appears to be halfway worn out, and I
>am able to ride twice as long.
>I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm
>not stupid - I would need to move the
>drivetrain to the left side and that of
>course is not possible.
>-T.Borek, BSME
Hey, I could double the life of my shorts that way too, then, couldn't
I?
"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"
Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
Chris Zacho The Wheelman
>badly worn chain, only one that's
>"halfway" worn. To me this means a
>slightly worn chain that is still quite
>useable. Using a badly worn chain I don't
>doubt your findings.
>
>Dave
Ge Twuice the useable life from a half worn chain! What a deal!
Chris Zacho The Wheelman
>After reading this discussion, I broke my
>chain, turned it around 180 degrees on
>one side of the break, and reconnected
>it. I did this so that the twist is on the
>bottom run, so it is not in tension.
>
>Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I
>expect it will last forever. Is this true?
>
>Chris
Only if you twisted it in the correct direction so the principal side is
contacting the cogs on alternate thursdays.
This cannot be tested except in use. If it wears out, you got it wrong.
Steven Gee
very much perpendicular. One exception to that would be slow speed
riding on the bankings, match sprinters when they are jockeying for
position at low speeds and doing track stnds.. The purpose of the
banking is to allow the rider to stay perpendicular to the surface
thus allowing a higher speed through the turn. I would argue that
there would be less wear on the sides as compared to a crit tire where
there would be leaning into th eturns relative to the road surface. I
was not a match sprinter. In my days as a trackie, T-Towne pro-am, I
never noticed any different wear patterns on one particular side of
the tire. I did wear through many Clement Pista tires.
As far as the reversible hubs, they are to allow for a quick gear
change. A different size sprocket would be on the other side. I do
not remember many riders with two sprockets on.
Steve
John Dacey <jda...@businesscycles.com> wrote in message news:<orip3052cf8ljlqu8...@4ax.com>...
Carl Fogel
Dear Greg,
You raise a good question, so it really doesn't
matter what your position is. (Hell, it wouldn't
matter if it were a bad question.) I appreciate
your interest and am only sorry that so many of
us feel obliged to bend over backwards for fear
of nitwits feeling offended.
(BTW, just to be clear, I'm a nitwit, but like
to think that I don't take offense as easily as
some. I may suspect that chains don't care whether
they're flipped, but I'm positive that they don't
give a damn whether anyone on rec.bicycles.tech
pouts or feels offended.)
That said, no, my worn chain was never flipped.
Flipping would have required removal, which
occurred only once, at the end of its life.
I'm a pathetic believer in WD40 and paper towels
for cleaning, followed by 85-130w gear oil, and
loathe both chain-breaking and master-links in all
their simple, intuitive, easy-to-use forms.
My policy concerning chains resembles that of
the Catholic Church (supposedly) and marriage.
Once the ends of my chain are joined, it takes
either death or a papal annulment to separate
them again--and I'm not a member of the Kennedy
family.
My strait-laced attitude toward chains may be
an over-reaction to my casual, sinful attitude
toward inner tubes, which would make Bill Clinton
blush. Once punctured, my inner tubes are thrown
away like soiled gloves.
Blathering happily like this, it occurs to me
that perhaps a chain could be flipped without
removal, although I've never tried to do so.
There might be enough play in all the links to
invert a worn chain like a belt or rubber band,
if you worked carefully and unscrewed the front
and rear derailleur cages.
Hmm . . . sounds like an amusing experiment to
try in a year or two when my current chain goes.
Carl Fogel
P.S. Next year? Bah! I just tried it on the workbench
with my worn chain. Yes, you can invert a badly worn
chain with its open ends wired together, but it isn't
easy--you need the whole length of the chain free.
This is the kind of important discovery that only
rec.bicycles.tech encourages.
C.F.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> That said, no, my worn chain was never flipped. Flipping would have
> required removal, which occurred only once, at the end of its life.
> I'm a pathetic believer in WD40 and paper towels for cleaning,
> followed by 85-130w gear oil, and loathe both chain-breaking and
> master-links in all their simple, intuitive, easy-to-use forms.
I think you should consider the reasons given in the FAQ for taking
the chain off the bicycle to clean it:
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html
> My policy concerning chains resembles that of the Catholic Church
> (supposedly) and marriage. Once the ends of my chain are joined, it
> takes either death or a papal annulment to separate them again--and
> I'm not a member of the Kennedy family.
> My strait-laced attitude toward chains may be an over-reaction to my
> casual, sinful attitude toward inner tubes, which would make Bill
> Clinton blush. Once punctured, my inner tubes are thrown away like
> soiled gloves.
> Blathering happily like this, it occurs to me that perhaps a chain
> could be flipped without removal, although I've never tried to do
> so.
You may want to change religions with respect to bicycle chains.
> There might be enough play in all the links to invert a worn chain
> like a belt or rubber band, if you worked carefully and unscrewed
> the front and rear derailleur cages.
That is a classic in topology. A closed roller chain defies turning
defies turning inside out even off the bicycle.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
carlfogel
> Carl Fogel writes:
> [snip]
> > There might be enough play in all the links to invert a worn chain
> > like a belt or rubber band, if you worked carefully and unscrewed the
> > front and rear derailleur cages.
> That is a classic in topology. A closed roller chain defies turning
> Jobst Brandt jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Dear Jobst,
You seem to have cut and perhaps missed the
P.S. in my post, where I mentioned that I went to the workbench and
inverted my worn chain. (It's easy to stop reading when we hit a
signature at the bottom of the screen and miss a post-script.)
I've just inverted my worn chain half a dozen more times, giddy with
excitement. There's a charming resistance, the chain stiffens into a
circle, there's a gentle give, and voilà!
Just like a rubber band or a belt inverting, 108 links do an abrupt about-
face! The edges that were on the outside are now on the inside of the
chain circle.
Your classic topology may deal with defiantly idealized chains, not
abjectly worn ones. I expect that a newer chain would be harder (or even
impossible) to invert. But freed to stiffen into a circle by unscrewing
the derailleur cages, a worn chain can be repeatedly inverted (or
flipped) while intact.
Flippantly,
Carl Fogel
--
Rick Onanian
(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:
>Only if you twisted it in the correct direction so the principal side is
>contacting the cogs on alternate thursdays.
>
>This cannot be tested except in use. If it wears out, you got it wrong.
You're wrong. As I said in another message in this thread, it's
coriolis-related, so you just need to know which hemisphere you're
in.
--
Rick Onanian
Rick Onanian
<usenet...@cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>Your classic topology may deal with defiantly idealized chains, not
>abjectly worn ones. I expect that a newer chain would be harder (or even
>impossible) to invert. But freed to stiffen into a circle by unscrewing
>the derailleur cages, a worn chain can be repeatedly inverted (or
>flipped) while intact.
Actually, brand-new derailer chains have some play in them...else
they wouldn't derail.
--
Rick Onanian
Qui si parla Campagnolo
replace the last quart first, to double the life...
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Greg Estep
"Carl Fogel" <carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8bbde8fc.04030...@posting.google.com...
> I'm a pathetic believer in WD40 and paper towels
> for cleaning, followed by 85-130w gear oil, and
> loathe both chain-breaking and master-links in all
> their simple, intuitive, easy-to-use forms.
I do occasionally remove a chain for cleaning (once or twice a year), but
usually clean them on the bike. I usually use kerosene in a spray bottle
instead of WD-40 (I figure that it's cheaper, but honestly haven't done the
math). I suppose that if I were to ever own a chain with a master link I
would remove it more often.
--
Greg Estep
Donald Gillies
I have found that when my tires are 1/3 worn, i can flip the front
wheel, and when they are 2/3 worn, i can flip the front wheel again.
this triples the life of my front wheel !
- Don "That's Incredible" Gillies
San Diego, CA
S o r n i
> Rick Onanian <spam...@cox.net> writes:
>
> I have found that when my tires are 1/3 worn, i can flip the front
> wheel, and when they are 2/3 worn, i can flip the front wheel again.
> this triples the life of my front wheel !
But your quick release will fail three times sooner.
Bill "28 years instead of...DOH!" S.
Tim McNamara
But you can compensate for hemispheric variation by moving the drive
train to the left side of the bike.
Tom Nakashima
Anyone besides me rotate the tires from front to rear?
-tom
Donald Gillies
>Triples the life of the front tire, or the front wheel?
>Anyone besides me rotate the tires from front to rear?
>-tom
everyone knows that to maximize tire life, you should not only rotate
tires from front to rear, but diagonally from side to side. Otherwise
those tires are just gonna wear much faster than normal !! flip that
front wheel, too, so the bearings get a chance to rotate in both
directions !!
Don "t Believe it" Gillies
- San Diego, CA
Pete Hausner
How would that apply to bikes hung one above the other? I don't have room in
the garage to place them side by side...
PH
dvt
> << everyone knows that to maximize tire life, you should not only rotate
> tires from front to rear, but diagonally from side to side. >>
> How would that apply to bikes hung one above the other? I don't have room in
> the garage to place them side by side...
It doesn't work unless you have a tandem trike.
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
Peter Cole
news:c22ml5$bbo$1...@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
Actually I did have to rotate my daughter's single tire on the trailer-bike
(it listed to one side).
I also rotate my axles occasionally for cone wear.
Tom Nakashima
change to rotate in
both directions? Seems to me the bearings will always track on the race and
cones no matter which way the wheel rotates. Just make sure they're well
lubed and adjusted.
-tom
"Peter Cole" <peter_cole_n...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Wy51c.461728$na.1095326@attbi_s04...
> "Donald Gillies" <gil...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
> news:c22ml5$bbo$1...@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
flip that
> > front wheel, too, so the bearings get a chance to rotate in both
> > directions !!
>
>
Ron Hardin
wear.
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Peter Cole
news:c22rl7$km8$1...@news.Stanford.EDU...
> Not sure about rotating axles or flipping the wheel so the bearing get a
> change to rotate in
> both directions? Seems to me the bearings will always track on the race and
> cones no matter which way the wheel rotates. Just make sure they're well
> lubed and adjusted.
he was pulling you leg about the wheels, I wasn't about cones.
Carl Fogel
Dear Greg,
I suspect that doing the math may be the greatest expense
for most the chain cleaning and oiling schemes debated on
rec.bicycles.tech. The silly things last remarkably well.
Lately, I've been trying to break myself of my absurd
habit of cleaning and oiling the chain daily. So far, it
hasn't disintegrated, but I'm keeping a wary eye on it.
It certainly ends up black and filthy after only fifteen
miles.
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Triples the life of the front tire, or the front wheel? Anyone
> besides me rotate the tires from front to rear?
Always, when putting on a new rear tire, the tire that wears out fastest.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Tad Borek
> "Tad Borek" <bor...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>
>>I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn
>>out, and I am able to ride twice as long.
>>
>>I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to
>>move the drivetrain to the left side and that of course is not possible.
>
>
> the tire life you wouldn't be increasing the labor involved in replacing
> worn tires, but you would be saving money on tires!!
I feel so awful, I was fishing and thought I just landed a lunker.
But I've thought about it and there may actually be something to this,
despite the unfortunate choice of words by Stetina (which had me
reaching for my trolling rig). He said "the other side of the rollers"
which makes no sense because rollers roll, and if roller wear is single
sided how come all the rollers are nice & shiny on all 2-pi-R?
Also he said, basically, "2 X 1/2 = 1" which is the old equation for
Shimano freewheel tools (two year freewheel life times a 50% chance of
changing the teeth pattern each year equals one new remover per
freewheel purchased), but doesn't amount to any extra chain life, tire
life, shorts life, etc.
But if he really meant "the other side of the pins" and "(1 X 0.5) + 1 =
1.5" who knows, maybe there is something to it. Look, if chain wear is
largely pin wear, it wouldn't matter so much that the rollers have their
wear evenly distributed. The pins are stuck where they are - orientation
stays the same.
It seems conceivable that the pins get worn on a relatively small
portion of their surface. Flattened, abraded, who knows? Of the two it
seems that itty bitty pin gets the raw end of the deal...the roller gets
to roll so its ID doesn't get hit at the same spot every turn. Maybe.
And if THAT's the case then it would make sense that you could flip a
chain over, thereby wearing the opposite side of the pin before the
stretch exceeded the rule of thumb. If the limiting factor in chain life
is "stretch" and stretch is really pin wear.
Lots of ifs.
-Tad
"special Roland Martin award currently under review by judges"
R Zych
for the other half life, then using simple math
1/2 life plus 1/2 life = as far as I can gather is one full life.
Just change your chain as you would normal and get the whole life out of one
side what a concept...LOL
Rick Onanian
wrote:
What did I write?
There's an attribution line with my name but nothing I've written...
--
Rick Onanian
Carl Fogel
Dear Rick,
Intrigued and hopeful, I tried to invert a new PC48
chain out of the box.
Nope, not a chance--way too stiff. (Well, maybe if I
could do it if I were the governor of California.)
Sullenly, I went back to the workbench and inverted
my worn PC48 a few times.
Carl Fogel
meb
As Gomer used to say: Shame Shame Shame- Rick- if you put your name on
another's writings that's plagerism! :D :cool:
I guess Rick-the poster must have felt credit for the long tire life
technique would be better directed to the tire flipper rather than
attributed to the penman. ;)
--
G.T.
> Tom Nakashima writes:
>
>
>>Triples the life of the front tire, or the front wheel? Anyone
>>besides me rotate the tires from front to rear?
>
>
> Always, when putting on a new rear tire, the tire that wears out fastest.
>
Especially on a mtn bike where sharp, edgy knobs aren't quite as important
on the rear.
Greg
onefred
> "onefred" <datay...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<403cb854$0$13241$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net>...
> > "carlfogel" <usenet...@cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
> > news:9fV_b.1722$7o6...@fe06.usenetserver.com...
> > > Onefred wrote:
> > > > "carlfogel" <usenet...@cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
> > news:XUS_-
> > > >
> >
b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usenetserver.comnews:XUS_b.1985$3f6....@fe09.usen-
> > > > etserver.com...
> > > > > Wayne Pein wrote:
> > > > > > from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager,
says,
> > "If
> > > > > > you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn out and
flip
> > it
> > > > > > over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other
> > words,
> > > > > > your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of
the
> > > > > > rollers will now contact the gears, and the derailleurs will
now
> > > > > > be laterally bending the chain the
> > opposite
> > > > > > direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered
this
> > > > > > phenomenon quite by accident. Any credence to this crud?
Wayne
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Wayne,
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, what a fool I've been!
> > > > >
> > > > > By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's
worn
> > out,
> > > > > I'll try measuring it from the other end.
> > > > >
> > > > > Carl Fogel
> > > > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different
lengths
> > > > by seeing how far each side wrap around a cylinder.
> > > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Dave,
> > >
> > > I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain
> > > (about 1.4%) both ways around the base of a 36-inch circumference
cable
> > > drum on a flat surface.
> > >
> > > The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still
> > > matched as closely as I could align them.
> > >
> > > This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.
> > >
> > > It seems unlikely that any difference in length could be observed by
> > > wrapping the chain around gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch
> > > apart, even during wear.
> > >
> > > Carl Fogel
> >
> > But Carl, Wayne never said to use a badly worn chain, only one that's
> > "halfway" worn. To me this means a slightly worn chain that is still
quite
> > useable. Using a badly worn chain I don't doubt your findings.
> >
> > Dave
>
> Dear Dave,
>
> My guess is that if the strange wear pattern suggested
> in this thread doesn't show up on a badly worn chain,
> then it won't show up on a slightly worn chain, either.
>
> You can test this a fortiori theory by removing your
> current chain, wrapping it around any large circular
> object on a garage floor, and marking where the start
> and finish pins end up with a fine-point sharpie.
Well, my current chain has been removed and installed several times without
paying attention to how it was intalled and re-installed, etc. With my next
chain I will pay attention to this issue and see if I can measure a
difference. Also, the direction the chain is coiled around the cylinder
will matter. Because of the chain line, one side of the chain will have
greater wear than the other (rear & left of the rivet passing over the
cassette, front & right of the rivet passing over the crank).
> I
> used a handy cable spool, but a plastic bucket lid will
> do nicely. Flip the chain over and see where the pins end
> up. A chain worn to 1/32" per foot is mildly worn and would
> be 3/32" longer than a new chain over 36 links, an easily
> noticed difference.
>
> I expect that, after flipping, any chain's length will be
> indistinguishable over a three foot span. It's necessary
> to flip and measure the same 36 links, since there are in
> fact measurable wear differences between different sections
> of the same chain.
>
> If I'm wrong, then someone should be able to draw a quick
> free-hand diagram of either a bushed or bushingless chain
> showing an asymmetrical wear pattern that would somehow
> change a chain's length (or some more subtle dimension)
> when curved one way and then reversed.
I swear I will try to give this some thought on my next chain. I am curious
to know if this truly is a valid argument. If true, I don't think there
will be a doubling of chain life or anything dramatic like Chris Zacho
thinks there will be but anything is better than nothing (when a chain costs
$20-$35).
> Here's a link to a chain diagram to get the artists started:
>
> http://www.vikinginternational.com/about.htm
>
> I'd be glad to host any pictures, whether they make sense
> to me or not--just email me.
>
> Carl Fogel
Dave
Greg Estep
> Triples the life of the front tire, or the front wheel?
> Anyone besides me rotate the tires from front to rear?
I agree with and follow Sheldon's advice. I put the best tire on the front.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-rotation.html
--
Greg Estep
Mike Latondresse
news:4046021f$0$13238$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net:
> Well, my current chain has been removed and installed several
> times without paying attention to how it was intalled and
> re-installed, etc.
I always flip my chain as I push the pin out towards the bike and
resinstall the chain by pushing the pin in toward the bike thereby
unconsciously benefiting from this dubious claim.
Tom Nakashima
flat area on the middle of the tire and would have to rotate from front to
rear more often. Now I ride after work and on the weekends and climb a lot
of hills, which I find keeps the tires more rounded. I don't rotate the
tires as much.
-tom
"Greg Estep" <i.gwestep...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wWn1c.19630$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Rick Onanian
<usenet...@cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>Rick Onanian wrote:
> > On 2 Mar 2004 10:48:41 -0800, gil...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> > >Rick Onanian <spam...@cox.net> writes:
> > >
> > >I have found that when my tires are 1/3 worn, i can flip the front
> > What did I write?
> > There's an attribution line with my name but nothing I've written...
>
>another's writings that's plagerism! :D :cool:
Somebody else put my name on yet another person's writings.
> I guess Rick-the poster must have felt credit for the long tire life
> technique would be better directed to the tire flipper rather than
> attributed to the penman. ;)
I am neither the flipper nor the penman. As such, I demand a duel!
We shall duel with banjos at dawn.
I hope Dawn doesn't mind getting bashed by banjos...
--
Rick Onanian
Mark Buell
aha...@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us says...
> Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> > from velonews.com
>
> > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain
> > when it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says,
> > "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will now
> > be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
> > contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the
> > chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that Shimano
> > engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
>
> Wow! I guess April 1st is closer than I thought!
>
> Art Harris
>
Yup, I think so.
|-)
Mike Murray
relatively flat. At Alpenrose the right side of tires wear and the left
side never does. The side wear is very obvious and much more than you would
see on any road tire. If the tire label is on the right it will generally
be worn off quickly, something that you rarely see on a road tire. The angle
between the track and the riding surface is more often higher than it is on
the road. In tight turns the tire may see a high lean angle briefly on the
road but on a steep track it will see a high lean angle for much more time.
--
Mike Murray
"Steven Gee" <h90...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6efd8f0.04030...@posting.google.com...
> The contact patch of a tire at speed on a velodrome, say 28 deg, is
> very much perpendicular. One exception to that would be slow speed
> riding on the bankings, match sprinters when they are jockeying for
> position at low speeds and doing track stnds.. The purpose of the
> banking is to allow the rider to stay perpendicular to the surface
> thus allowing a higher speed through the turn. I would argue that
> there would be less wear on the sides as compared to a crit tire where
> there would be leaning into th eturns relative to the road surface. I
> was not a match sprinter. In my days as a trackie, T-Towne pro-am, I
> never noticed any different wear patterns on one particular side of
> the tire. I did wear through many Clement Pista tires.
>
> As far as the reversible hubs, they are to allow for a quick gear
> change. A different size sprocket would be on the other side. I do
> not remember many riders with two sprockets on.
>
> Steve
>
> John Dacey <jda...@businesscycles.com> wrote in message
news:<orip3052cf8ljlqu8...@4ax.com>...
> > "Deficit omne quod nascitur." - Quintilian
> > On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:22:36 GMT, Tad Borek <bor...@pacbell.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle
applies
> > >to tires. Unless you ride backwards frequently, as on a unicycle,
you're
> > >only wearing out the fronts of your tires.
> > >
> > >I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn
> > >out, and I am able to ride twice as long.
> > >
> > >I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to
> > >move the drivetrain to the left side and that of course is not
possible.
> >
> > What's facetious for one can be factual for another. The tires of
> > track racers wear at a much-accelerated rate on their right sides
> > because of velodrome banking. Dual-threaded rear track hubs came not
> > so much to give oxymoronic gear options to fixed-gear road riders; but
> > rather to allow track racers to reverse the direction of their wheels
> > and thereby extend the useful life of their tires without having to
> > remove and readhere an assymetrically worn tubular tire to its rim.
> > -------------------------------
> > John Dacey
> > Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
> > Now in our twenty-first year.
> > Our catalogue of track equipment: eighth year online.
> > http://www.businesscycles.com