Strangest damn thing...

[!Jones]

I was going down the road on me little bicycle, when I heard this
noise behind me... what Hunter Thompson called the sound of "dirty
thunder". A bunch of bikers blasted by me in full regalia. Aye,
gwad, I'd be embarrassed to think I looked *that* silly... of course,
I can't wear the usual bicycle clothing and keep a straight face,
either.

Anyway, they were all wearing a beautifully embroidered patch on their
costumes... it said: "Lone Wolf Motorcycle Club".

Huh?

Jones

[Daryl]

I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
rude. Pedestrians are quite nice though. But when I meet some
one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
them. The Bikers are always friendly.

--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.

[!Jones]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:25:52 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
>I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
>rude. Pedestrians are quite nice though. But when I meet some
>one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
>them. The Bikers are always friendly.

Well, rude assholes come driving all forms of vehicles, so I wouldn't
single out people who ride motorcycles as being any greater jerks than
the general population... present company excepted, of course.

My point was the club's name... think about it, Daryl.

Methinks it's *gotta* be a joke... but I've never met a biker with any
sense of humor about their colors; they usually take themselves pretty
seriously, which is what makes 'em so funny.

Jones

[thirty-six]

The brain obviously decided on the moniker.

[datakoll]

HARD TELLING 'WHAT'
CAWS I observe the same contradiction in the same place.

I had a solo come after me once....pulled out the mace.
He was taken aback that his judgement was error

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&biw=1440&bih=794&sclient=psy-ab&q=meaning+of+lone+wolf&oq=meaning+of+lone+wolf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.12...0.0.2.12392.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0.tZMlZ6HOypk&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=beffe60e8d00a9c4

H-D riders ride thru Yuma all winter. warmth/sun must feel good.
many in costume.

A lot of peer group costuming on the west coast N-S
sometimes like Olde England

[datakoll]

speaking oif the devil (SOTD)

WATCHED the assembling crowd at Boone Doon above Santa cruz below SF and guess what....lotta riders dressed in black, dark maroon, dark....twice as many female riders wore dayglo than males.

So much for the "I doah wan people to think I'm a fag' theory.

[Daryl]

On 5/15/2012 8:46 PM, !Jones wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:25:52 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>
>> I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
>> I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
>> rude. Pedestrians are quite nice though. But when I meet some
>> one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
>> them. The Bikers are always friendly.
>
> Well, rude assholes come driving all forms of vehicles, so I wouldn't
> single out people who ride motorcycles as being any greater jerks than
> the general population... present company excepted, of course.

The ones wearing colors are always friendly. The ones riding the
Rice Rockets are cold and unfriendly.

>
> My point was the club's name... think about it, Daryl.

I have and I am familiar with it's use.

>
> Methinks it's *gotta* be a joke... but I've never met a biker with any
> sense of humor about their colors; they usually take themselves pretty
> seriously, which is what makes 'em so funny.

They are talking about the Club itself. Not the individuals.

[Dan O]

That's a good one :-)

[Dan O]

On May 15, 7:46 pm, !Jones <sdafc...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:25:52 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
>
> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
> >I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
> >I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
> >rude. Pedestrians are quite nice though. But when I meet some
> >one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
> >them. The Bikers are always friendly.
>
> Well, rude assholes come driving all forms of vehicles, so I wouldn't
> single out people who ride motorcycles as being any greater jerks than
> the general population... present company excepted, of course.
>
> My point was the club's name... think about it, Daryl.
>
> Methinks it's *gotta* be a joke...

Gotta be.

> but I've never met a biker with any
> sense of humor about their colors; they usually take themselves pretty
> seriously, which is what makes 'em so funny.
>

Nowadays most of them aren't died-in-the-wool bikers; more like
playing at being bikers, although most of these still want to play it
as serious. Sounds like these guys are self-effacing about it,
although it *could* be the most perfect inadvertant oxymoron ever to
be named, embroidered, sewn and flown.

[Dan O]

I can't get my mind around that (a pack representing a lone wolf?) -
and still ironic as hell.

[datakoll]

CYCLISTS demeaning bikers on costume ? whine abt bizarre !

anyway, there's no tellin'
Lone Wolf from what ?
the verb 'wolf' ? what does it imply ?
what do wolves do ?

[Daryl]

Ah, you finally got it ;)

[KKHS]

On May 16, 12:16 am, Daryl <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 8:46 PM, !Jones wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:25:52 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
> > <dh...@nospami70west3.com>  wrote:
>
> >> I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
> >> I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
> >> rude.  Pedestrians are quite nice  though.  But when I meet some
> >> one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
> >> them.  The Bikers are always friendly.
>
> > Well, rude assholes come driving all forms of vehicles, so I wouldn't
> > single out people who ride motorcycles as being any greater jerks than
> > the general population... present company excepted, of course.
>
> The ones wearing colors are always friendly.  The ones riding the
> Rice Rockets are cold and unfriendly.

Generalities are always bad.

[!Jones]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 22:16:11 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>The ones wearing colors are always friendly. The ones riding the

>Rice Rockets are cold and unfriendly. I have and I am familiar with it's use.

>They are talking about the Club itself. Not the individuals.

I disagree and I wouldn't know one motorcycle from another. You
simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
personality. You see rude, aggressive people in tractor-trailer rigs,
cars, skateboards, jet skies, boats, and bicycles... run a Google on
["critical mass" bicycle ride] to see what I mean.

Jones

['Hog]

They were certainly a very long way from County Antrim.

--
Hog

Remember the 4 "F" rule:
If you're not Fucking me, Feeding me or Financing me
...your opinions really don't matter, so you can Fuck off

[Daryl]

then how can you research the subject if you aren't aware of the
equipment? I make my observations on knowing the equipment. You
will note that the Rice Burner People will defend it to the
...... no they won't.

[!Jones]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:05:19 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam "'Hog"
<sm91...@chipshotmail.couk> wrote:

>Remember the 4 "F" rule:
>If you're not Fucking me, Feeding me or Financing me
>...your opinions really don't matter, so you can Fuck off

That's fine with me. Kinna like the old hippies who tuned in, turned
on, and tripped out (recall them?) Now they expect you to support
them in their geriatric years while they whine about the rich people.

Fine, 4-F dude... here's another 'F' for you: how does my [F]ender
taste? Shall we "share the road"? Heh heh heh!

Jones

[!Jones]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 10:48:39 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>then how can you research the subject if you aren't aware of the
>equipment? I make my observations on knowing the equipment. You
>will note that the Rice Burner People will defend it to the
>...... no they won't.

I didn't "research" shit. Motorcycles come in two basic forms: noisy
and noisier. They're either parked blocking the entrance door or
they're blocking a handicapped zone. Fuck 'em.

Jones

[AMuzi]

So bitter - have you no appreciation for beauty?

http://www.bikeexif.com/harley-panhead-for-sale

http://www.themotart-journal.com/2012/05/norton-commando-what-else.html


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[The Older Gentleman]

!Jones <sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:

> You
> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
> personality.

I think in many cases you can, actually.



--
Honda CB400 Four Triumph Street Triple Yamaha Tenere
Suzuki GN250, TS250ERx2
So many bikes, so little garage space....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

[The Older Gentleman]

Look, Ma! An intellectual.

[!Jones]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:56:11 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam
totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) wrote:

>I think in many cases you can, actually.

OK, if I actually examined the vehicle on an individual basis, then,
yes, of course. Simply to say that someone who rides a composite
frame has a specific personality trait is silly, though. Similarly:
"Jerks all drive Hondas" is equally fallacious.

I tend to encounter lots of jerks on motorcycles; however, I have not
operationally defined "jerkhood" and conducted a statistically
controlled count comparing that population against the general
population, so... it may well be true that people who drive "rice
rockets" (assumably Japanese products) are, in fact, greater jerks as
I can cite no evidence contradicting such an absurd statement.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 12:54:02 -0500, in alt.war.vietnam AMuzi
<a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>So bitter - have you no appreciation for beauty?

Of course I do! Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kx0GeFhw8

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't appreciate noisy motorcycles. Mine's very quiet.

http://bmwdean.com/r75red.jpg


--
- Frank Krygowski

[sss sss]

On May 16, 12:37 pm, !Jones <sdafc...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:05:19 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam "'Hog"
>

> <sm911s...@chipshotmail.couk> wrote:
> >Remember the 4 "F" rule:
> >If you're not Fucking me, Feeding me or Financing me
> >...your opinions really don't matter, so you can Fuck off
>
> That's fine with me.  Kinna like the old hippies who tuned in, turned
> on, and tripped out (recall them?)  Now they expect you to support
> them in their geriatric years while they whine about the rich people.
>
> Fine, 4-F dude... here's another 'F' for you: how does my [F]ender
> taste?  Shall we "share the road"?  Heh heh heh!
>
> Jones

Yup... the old 4-F rule: "Check out the Feel of my Fender in yo Face
at Fourty!"

300 lb motorcycles had best not get TOO cheeky with a two ton pickup
truck.

[Daryl]

You need a Flag on your Bicycle saying that. It could be a very
interesting afternoon.

[datakoll]

itsnot the cafe people...its you !

[@*o*@]

Back in the mid-1970's when everybody and his brother and sister and
grandma (!) were riding dirt cheap Japanese motorcycles, they still
wanted to look
like bikers, so they wore engineer boots and levis and cutoff levi
jackets, but, since they weren't in an MC, they couldn't wear a patch
and they all looked like they
were *prospects* for some outlaw club.

So they looked in the JC Whitney catalog for patches that they could
sew on their cutoffs which would customize them but not piss off the
1%ers.

The patches would say something like "Independant Rider," and if they
had a rocker, it would say "No Club."

[!Jones]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 10:18:33 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam "@*o*@"
<aengus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Back in the mid-1970's when everybody and his brother and sister and
>grandma (!) were riding dirt cheap Japanese motorcycles, they still
>wanted to look
>like bikers, so they wore engineer boots and levis and cutoff levi
>jackets, but, since they weren't in an MC, they couldn't wear a patch
>and they all looked like they
>were *prospects* for some outlaw club.
>
>So they looked in the JC Whitney catalog for patches that they could
>sew on their cutoffs which would customize them but not piss off the
>1%ers.
>
>The patches would say something like "Independant Rider," and if they
>had a rocker, it would say "No Club."

Well... come on, dude. Joining some motorcycle club isn't exactly
like getting into Harvard. I post to alt.war.vietnam and it's a
frequent topic hereabouts 'bout what are termed "wannabes" who weren't
really in Vietnam. But, hell's belles, man! It didn't exactly take a
fuckin' rocket scientist to get to Vietnam in the '60s; any idiot
could have done it.

So, let's say that I wanted to be a "Hell's Angel," just to pull out a
name since I knew Hunter, would I need a high school diploma?
(Obviously not; the club lost the apostrophe... but, if you want
literate people, join a book club!)

Do I need an application?

What are the requirements? Is there a background check?

Don't worry; it's just money... you go to the official "Hells Angel"
web site at http://www.hells-angels.com and use their on-line form,
pay yer dues, and, bingo! You're a Hells Angel; download your
official certificate (you still have to join a "chapter"; it probably
gets raunchier there.) Order all of your patches and regalia here:
http://www.hells-angels.com/?HA=support ; anyone can order; however,
you get a discount if you've paid your dues.

What's so difficult about that?

Jones

[Daryl]

It might not be too difficult in todays (HA Spelling) WWW world
but without joining that chapter, it could lend it to a very
painful and long afternoon.

[!Jones]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 13:55:15 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>It might not be too difficult in todays (HA Spelling) WWW world
>but without joining that chapter, it could lend it to a very
>painful and long afternoon.

Dunno. I've never been much of a "joiner", so that's about the limit
of my "research". It can't be too bad, though. I always get a kick
out of how tough the Marine boot camp is, but any high school has
three and a half times their wash-out rate.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:56:11 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam
totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) wrote:

>!Jones <sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>
>> You
>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>> personality.
>
>I think in many cases you can, actually.

WWJD? (What would Jesus drive?)

I bet he'd drive a Prius. What do you think?

Jones

[Duane]

a 69 Rally Sport.

[Daryl]

No, he would lead a Burro to not place any undue weight on the
donkey.

[Daryl]

The Marines teach you to be tough, not downright mean. You are a
Hunter fan like I am. Then you read his book when he spent time
with them. Now, you can answer your own question.

[The Older Gentleman]

!Jones <sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:

> But, hell's belles, man! It didn't exactly take a
> fuckin' rocket scientist to get to Vietnam in the '60s; any idiot
> could have done it.

I was there.

[Daryl]

On 5/17/2012 3:05 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>
>> But, hell's belles, man! It didn't exactly take a
>> fuckin' rocket scientist to get to Vietnam in the '60s; any idiot
>> could have done it.
>
> I was there.
>
>

I must be a rocket scientist because I am a legalized draft
Dodger. Slinking in the mud and the paddies with dudes in black
pajamas just wasn't appealing. Joined the AF and went over it.

I know a couple of Marines that went under it but that was a
different story.

[AMuzi]

Ass, Prius, whatever. Meh.

[!Jones]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:05:28 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam

totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) wrote:

>I was there.

Me, too.

I rest my case.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:19:39 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>The Marines teach you to be tough, not downright mean. You are a
>Hunter fan like I am. Then you read his book when he spent time
>with them. Now, you can answer your own question.

Hunter and I were housemates briefly back in the '70s. It was an...
err... "interesting" time. Once, after a four-day binge, we decided
to get real jobs, so we stumbled down to the docks and asked a shrimp
boat if then needed any hands. They did. "Jump on," they said...
big, BIG mistake!!! Nothing like detox, sea sickness, and a net full
of slime all happening at once.

Jones

[Daryl]

I met him in the 90s. Detox he needed but not for Booze.
Interesting fellow.

[!Jones]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 17:43:51 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>I met him in the 90s. Detox he needed but not for Booze.
>Interesting fellow.

Yeah, he always scared me a bit. It's odd to meet someone who might
be crazier than I am. At the time, I was interested in writing and
Hunter had "seen the elephant" as they say. At that time, he had
published *Hell's Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw
Motorcycle Gangs* and *Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas* and was working
on a piece about the 1972 campaign.

But, I have always wanted to write. Anyway, here's a secret, Daryl...
I'm taking the whole fucking summer off! I have tenure, so I can do
as I please, right? Anyway, I'm going to write the *real* story about
the bees... and take a road trip to the northern prairies... I want to
see the Dakotas and on into Canada. Madison, WI is one town I'd
really like to see.

Yo... Muzi... you got any tandems for rent? We gotta have a tandem as
me stoker can't ride on her own; however, we're an experienced team...
and I've been sober since 1975.

Jones

[AMuzi]

Write me. Mail to your address above bounces.

[Daryl]

On 5/17/2012 8:12 PM, !Jones wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 17:43:51 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>
>> I met him in the 90s. Detox he needed but not for Booze.
>> Interesting fellow.
>
> Yeah, he always scared me a bit. It's odd to meet someone who might
> be crazier than I am. At the time, I was interested in writing and
> Hunter had "seen the elephant" as they say. At that time, he had
> published *Hell's Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw
> Motorcycle Gangs* and *Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas* and was working
> on a piece about the 1972 campaign.

What scared the living hell out of me about him was not just his
"Fairy Dust" usage but the number of guns he popped off with all
the time. The only reason no one was killed by him in Woody
Creek was that everyone stayed the hell away from him except at
the WC Tavern. He didn't bring guns inside the Tavern.

>
> But, I have always wanted to write. Anyway, here's a secret, Daryl...
> I'm taking the whole fucking summer off! I have tenure, so I can do
> as I please, right? Anyway, I'm going to write the *real* story about
> the bees... and take a road trip to the northern prairies... I want to
> see the Dakotas and on into Canada. Madison, WI is one town I'd
> really like to see.

Got the Western and Northern parts of Canada covered. Of course,
can't cover much of Northern Canada, it's so vast but I did visit
a couple of the Towns including Yellow Knife a couple of times.
I haven't been to the eastern part of it and I doubt if I ever
lost anything there anyway.

Spent almost 4 years rummaging around the Dakotas. The Western
side of the Dakotas is one of two things. Green and White but
never at the same time.

>
> Yo... Muzi... you got any tandems for rent? We gotta have a tandem as
> me stoker can't ride on her own; however, we're an experienced team...
> and I've been sober since 1975.
>
> Jones
>

[TOG@Toil]

Dear old Krusty still gets it wrong, non-shocker....

[!Jones]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:56:38 -0500, in alt.war.vietnam AMuzi
<a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Write me. Mail to your address above bounces.

Oh, yeah... they collect spam on a newsgroup... I'm sure you know
that, though. I planned to as soon as we have a firm date.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 00:50:05 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>What scared the living hell out of me about him was not just his
>"Fairy Dust" usage but the number of guns he popped off with all
>the time. The only reason no one was killed by him in Woody
>Creek was that everyone stayed the hell away from him except at
>the WC Tavern. He didn't bring guns inside the Tavern.

Hunter was definitely an "odd duck". He was a hard person with whom
to be friends. I gave up in the early '70s. The last time I saw him
was in Austin, TX sometime in '74. I remember Townes Van Zant was
playing at a local venue; three or four of us went to hear him and
were having a quiet beer and talking. Hunter got up to go to the
men's room and never returned. I never heard from him again.

When he was sober, he did write well; however, those times were rare.
(pot/kettle/black) I haven't ever figured out exactly what "Gonzo
journalism" is or why it's worth reading. Actually, his writing would
accurately be called a "stream of consciousness" dialog.

I knew him for about a year and don't recall any gun-related
incidents. After that, he turned up in Colorado where he lived way
out in the boonies, or so I heard. I heard that there was public land
adjoining his lot with a fairly well traveled hiking trail. I heard
that everyone was complaining because he would shoot into the public
land without regard for where the bullets went... but all of that is
hearsay.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 00:50:05 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
<dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:

>Got the Western and Northern parts of Canada covered. Of course,
>can't cover much of Northern Canada, it's so vast but I did visit
>a couple of the Towns including Yellow Knife a couple of times.
>I haven't been to the eastern part of it and I doubt if I ever
>lost anything there anyway.
>
>Spent almost 4 years rummaging around the Dakotas. The Western
>side of the Dakotas is one of two things. Green and White but
>never at the same time.

The wifey is from Newfoundland, so we've been to Eastern Canada over
the years. I rather liked Montreal... 'cept it's *very* gay.

This trip will be up the Rockies doing the national parks along the
way. After we've seen Banf and Jasper, we'll turn east and probably
cross into Wisconsin or Minnesota.

Did I ever tell the story about how I took the Harley Davidson gas
tank to Vietnam?

Jones

[@*o*@]

On May 17, 4:22 pm, !Jones <sdafc...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:05:28 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam
> totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) wrote:
>
> >I was there.
>
> Me, too.

Yabbot, "The Older Gentleman" was there with his Mommy and Daddy and
the Royal Marines wouldn't let him ride his tricycle out of the
embassy compound.

[@*o*@]

On May 17, 4:33 pm, !Jones <sdafc...@lsdhf.com> wrote:

> Hunter and I were housemates briefly back in the '70s.

Did HST ever get drunk and offer to give you a BJ?

[!Jones]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:18:04 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam "@*o*@"
<aengus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Did HST ever get drunk and offer to give you a BJ?

No, not that I recall. Are you interested? I mean... is this an
offer? I'm kind of busy at the moment; however, I might accommodate
you if you have some smooth moves with yer tongue.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam "@*o*@"
<aengus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Yabbot, "The Older Gentleman" was there with his Mommy and Daddy and
>the Royal Marines wouldn't let him ride his tricycle out of the
>embassy compound.

Well, if he says he was in Vietnam, I'm OK with it. I bet you're a
Royal Marine... and I'm OK with that, also.

I recall once upon a time... I was trolling the faggot groups and I
happend across an interesting thread: there were a couple of fags and
one was calling the other a "wannabe" dick sucker; i.e. he didn't
*really* take it in the ass... he just said so.

With that in mind, whatever you say you are: I'm fine with it.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 12:49:26 -0500, in alt.war.vietnam Biker Geek
<bike...@speakeasy.net> wrote:

>A Honda. It says in the Bible, "He will lead us all into Heaven
>in one Accord." (I knew the Accord had gotten big in recent
>years but...)
>
>His dad drove a Plymouth, though. "God drove Adam and Eve from
>the Garden [of Eden] in a Fury."

BAWWWhahahahaha!!!

OK, that's the best answer I have seen so far.

There, we have the posting of the microsecond. I say we give this guy
the official award.

Whaddya think, Eris?

Jones

[!Jones]

But but but... !!!

We need citations! Polish that thing Geek... gotta include chapter
and verse!

Jones

[@*o*@]

On May 18, 10:53 am, !Jones <sdafc...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:18:04 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam "@*o*@"
>

> <aengusmaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Did HST ever get drunk and offer to give you a BJ?
>
> No, not that I recall.

Well, HST used to hang around with a lot of SF gay area fags like
Ginsburg and Burroughs, so I figure he was probably a dick smoker.

He was rather vague about what happened that caused the HA's to beat
the shit out of him, but I figure that he probably propositioned one
of the members...

> Are you interested?  I mean... is this an
> offer?  I'm kind of busy at the moment; however, I might accommodate
> you if you have some smooth moves with yer tongue.

Dream on...

[!Jones]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:37:06 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam "@*o*@"
<aengus...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well, HST used to hang around with a lot of SF gay area fags like
>Ginsburg and Burroughs, so I figure he was probably a dick smoker.
>He was rather vague about what happened that caused the HA's to beat
>the shit out of him, but I figure that he probably propositioned one

>of the members... Dream on...

Well, Hunter certainly moved within the circles of Ginsburg and
Burroughs; however, he also knew Robert Stone ("Dog Soldiers"), Ken
Kesey, and Larry McMurtry. As to "what happened" in his book, you're
guess is as good as mine; however, he once got the shit kicked out of
him at a place called "Edge Falls" north of San Antonio, TX because he
insisted on skipping rocks off the water into a crowd of picnickers on
the far beach. If Hunter felt like throwing a rock, he threw a rock;
if the mood hit him to shoot his gun, he shot his gun... if you were
in the way of either, that was your problem. You're twice his size
and 20 years younger...? NBD to him. You'd best get your head outta
the way because Hunter feels like throwing rocks.

He might have propositioned one or all of them... so what? I thought
most MC gangies were queer, anyway; what's the big deal? He might
also have decided to throw rocks into their parked motorcycles...
either would have been perfectly in character. He got the stuffing
kicked outta him so often that I decided he liked it.

Jones

[The Older Gentleman]

!Jones <sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:

> Well, if he says he was in Vietnam, I'm OK with it.

I was. I was also six years old :-)

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/15/2012 11:16 PM, Daryl wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 8:46 PM, !Jones wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:25:52 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
>> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
>>> I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
>>> rude. Pedestrians are quite nice though. But when I meet some
>>> one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
>>> them. The Bikers are always friendly.
>>
>> Well, rude assholes come driving all forms of vehicles, so I wouldn't
>> single out people who ride motorcycles as being any greater jerks than
>> the general population... present company excepted, of course.
>
> The ones wearing colors are always friendly. The ones riding the Rice
> Rockets are cold and unfriendly.
>
Not if you are riding a scooter. Unlike you consider having bikers yell
"faggot" or flip the bird as I ride by as friendly.

And when I am on the Honda NT700V (aka Deauville) [1], it is almost
always H-D riders that do not wave back.

They often do not care for my CBR600F4i - maybe because it is faster
than any stock H-D?

On the other hand, everyone seems friendly when I am on the Yammie TW200
(aka inline beach buggy).
>>
>> My point was the club's name... think about it, Daryl.
>
> I have and I am familiar with it's use.
>
>> Methinks it's *gotta* be a joke... but I've never met a biker with any
>> sense of humor about their colors; they usually take themselves pretty
>> seriously, which is what makes 'em so funny.
>
> They are talking about the Club itself. Not the individuals.
>
"I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a
member." - Groucho Marx

[1] Which USians seem to commonly mistake for a BMW, until they get
close enough to read the Honda logo.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/16/2012 12:42 PM, !Jones wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 10:48:39 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>
>> then how can you research the subject if you aren't aware of the
>> equipment? I make my observations on knowing the equipment. You
>> will note that the Rice Burner People will defend it to the
>> ...... no they won't.
>
> I didn't "research" shit. Motorcycles come in two basic forms: noisy
> and noisier. They're either parked blocking the entrance door or
> they're blocking a handicapped zone. Fuck 'em.

My Honda NT700V [1] is not noisy. Several of my neighbors have
pick-em-up trucks that are much louder.

[1] The choice of Polite Forces (sic) worldwide.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/16/2012 12:54 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
> !Jones wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 May 2012 10:48:39 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
>> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>>
>>> then how can you research the subject if you aren't aware of the
>>> equipment? I make my observations on knowing the equipment. You will
>>> note that the Rice Burner People will defend it to the ...... no they
>>> won't.
>>
>> I didn't "research" shit. Motorcycles come in two basic forms: noisy
>> and noisier. They're either parked blocking the entrance door or
>> they're blocking a handicapped zone. Fuck 'em.
>>

>> Jones
>>
>
> So bitter - have you no appreciation for beauty?
>
> http://www.bikeexif.com/harley-panhead-for-sale
>
As long as I do not have to ride it - I have little appreciation for
primitive suspension and poor handling and braking.

> http://www.themotart-journal.com/2012/05/norton-commando-what-else.html
>
I like this a lot better:
<http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/files/Honda_NT700V%205.jpg>.

[Daryl]

On 5/19/2012 12:17 AM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 11:16 PM, Daryl wrote:
>> On 5/15/2012 8:46 PM, !Jones wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:25:52 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
>>> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am a million mile Cyclists and Motorcyclist (as it's called).
>>>> I ride my little 3 wheeler electric and most motorists are quite
>>>> rude. Pedestrians are quite nice though. But when I meet some
>>>> one wearing colors I always get a friendly nod or a wave from
>>>> them. The Bikers are always friendly.
>>>
>>> Well, rude assholes come driving all forms of vehicles, so I
>>> wouldn't
>>> single out people who ride motorcycles as being any greater
>>> jerks than
>>> the general population... present company excepted, of course.
>>
>> The ones wearing colors are always friendly. The ones riding
>> the Rice
>> Rockets are cold and unfriendly.
>>
> Not if you are riding a scooter. Unlike you consider having
> bikers yell "faggot" or flip the bird as I ride by as friendly.
>
> And when I am on the Honda NT700V (aka Deauville) [1], it is
> almost always H-D riders that do not wave back.
>
> They often do not care for my CBR600F4i - maybe because it is
> faster than any stock H-D?

Newflash: It's overly important to you. And no one else cares.

>
> On the other hand, everyone seems friendly when I am on the
> Yammie TW200 (aka inline beach buggy).
>>>
>>> My point was the club's name... think about it, Daryl.
>>
>> I have and I am familiar with it's use.
>>
>>> Methinks it's *gotta* be a joke... but I've never met a biker
>>> with any
>>> sense of humor about their colors; they usually take
>>> themselves pretty
>>> seriously, which is what makes 'em so funny.
>>
>> They are talking about the Club itself. Not the individuals.
>>
> "I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a
> member." - Groucho Marx
>
> [1] Which USians seem to commonly mistake for a BMW, until they
> get close enough to read the Honda logo.
>


--

[Daryl]

On 5/16/2012 11:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> !Jones wrote:

>> On Wed, 16 May 2012 10:48:39 -0600, in alt.war.vietnam Daryl
>> <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
>>
>>> then how can you research the subject if you aren't aware of
>>> the equipment? I make my observations on knowing the
>>> equipment. You will note that the Rice Burner People will
>>> defend it to the ...... no they won't.
>>
>> I didn't "research" shit. Motorcycles come in two basic forms:
>> noisy
>> and noisier. They're either parked blocking the entrance door or
>> they're blocking a handicapped zone. Fuck 'em.
>>
>> Jones
>>
>
> So bitter - have you no appreciation for beauty?
>
> http://www.bikeexif.com/harley-panhead-for-sale
>

> http://www.themotart-journal.com/2012/05/norton-commando-what-else.html

The 1968 Norton Commando S. They are still chasing it's
performance. Norton claimed 66 hp. But the reason for that was,
the US had an import limit of 67 hp. Dynoed, that bike put out
over 122 hp at under 400 lbs. I want one.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/16/2012 12:56 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>
>> You
>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>> personality.
>
> I think in many cases you can, actually.
>
Anyone who rides with straight pipes in residential areas is
anti-social. Especially when they make it a point to be as loud as
possible for as long as possible.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/17/2012 3:11 PM, !Jones wrote:

> On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:56:11 +0100, in alt.war.vietnam
> totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) wrote:
>
>> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You
>>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>>> personality.
>>
>> I think in many cases you can, actually.
>

> WWJD? (What would Jesus drive?)
>
> I bet he'd drive a Prius. What do you think?
>
> Jones
>
12-passenger van, of course.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/17/2012 12:18 PM, @*o*@ wrote:
> On May 15, 7:06 pm, !Jones<sdafc...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, they were all wearing a beautifully embroidered patch on their
>> costumes... it said: "Lone Wolf Motorcycle Club".
>>
>> Huh?
>
> Back in the mid-1970's when everybody and his brother and sister and
> grandma (!) were riding dirt cheap Japanese motorcycles, they still
> wanted to look
> like bikers, so they wore engineer boots and levis and cutoff levi
> jackets, but, since they weren't in an MC, they couldn't wear a patch
> and they all looked like they
> were *prospects* for some outlaw club.

> [...]

I would rather look like this than a biker:
<https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/582135_3606814860501_1577568887_2923928_786877932_n.jpg>

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

> Newflash: It's overly important to you. And no one else cares.[...]

Do I detect sour grapes? :)

So of us actually like the advances in handling, braking, and
performance developed over the last half-century, and in particular the
last decade.

[Daryl]

On 5/19/2012 12:49 AM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 12:56 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
>> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You
>>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>>> personality.
>>
>> I think in many cases you can, actually.
>>
> Anyone who rides with straight pipes in residential areas is
> anti-social. Especially when they make it a point to be as loud
> as possible for as long as possible.
>

My neighbor took a perfectly good Yahzuki and put in harley style
pipes on it. They aren't too practical because he has to wear a
heat shield on his left leg to prevent burning. HE's a nice guy.
But when he is riding, he is riding his HD lookalike wearing a
Nazi Helmet.

[Daryl]

I wouldn't own a CBR600. I went through that phase. My most
favorite Bike of all is a CB750K full dresser.

Oh, and I have owned a harley or two in the past. They just
don't trip my trigger anymore than your crotch rocket does.

>
> So of us actually like the advances in handling, braking, and
> performance developed over the last half-century, and in
> particular the last decade.

And yet, you are still chasing the 1968 Norton Commando S in all
those areas. The Commando S is a 1940s design with the best
frame and forks ever made. The Engine dates back to 1952 where
it was very strong even then. Claimed HP was 66 for import
reasons, tested HP was over 122 hp. On a less than 400 lb bike.
Your 600 is heavier and has less HP. Do the math on this one.

And before 1968, there was the Vincent Black Shadow. Of course,
the Black Shadow may have been powerful, manueverable, quick but
it couldn't stop to save it's own life. Well, you get 1 out of 4
on that one.

But on the 68 Norton Commando, you are still chasing it in ALL
Categories. The other racers in the Isle of Man sure were happy
when the 68 was no longer able to run in the Stock Unlimited
class due to the year allowance.

The fact remains, like the 68 Norton, your CBR600 is still too
much bike if you push it. The only difference here is that the
68 Norton kills you quicker.

[Daryl]

Not me. While the clothes are functional, the bike tucks your
legs behind your hips. Taking a crotch rocket and making full
dress, you end up with the pegs tucked like that. There are very
few bikes made today that don't do this.

[AMuzi]

Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 12:56 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
>> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You
>>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>>> personality.
>>
>> I think in many cases you can, actually.
>>
> Anyone who rides with straight pipes in residential areas is
> anti-social. Especially when they make it a point to be as loud as
> possible for as long as possible.
>

Anti social is not necessarily a vice. My experience in my
neighborhood paints it as a virtue. Hey didn't you live in
Milwaukee's Core once yourself?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[J. Clarke]

In article <1kkbc26.igrobg9zbaukN%totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk>,
totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk says...

>
> !Jones <sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, if he says he was in Vietnam, I'm OK with it.
>
> I was. I was also six years old :-)

Geez, and here I thought you were an old guy.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/19/2012 4:48 AM, Daryl wrote:
> On 5/19/2012 12:49 AM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 5/16/2012 12:56 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
>>> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You
>>>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>>>> personality.
>>>
>>> I think in many cases you can, actually.
>>>
>> Anyone who rides with straight pipes in residential areas is
>> anti-social. Especially when they make it a point to be as loud
>> as possible for as long as possible.
>>
>
> My neighbor took a perfectly good Yahzuki and put in harley style pipes
> on it. They aren't too practical because he has to wear a heat shield on
> his left leg to prevent burning. HE's a nice guy. But when he is riding,
> he is riding his HD lookalike wearing a Nazi Helmet.
>

If I hit someone hard enough to cause the same level of pain as I feel
when a guy queued up next to me in traffic revs up a big twin with
straight pipes, I would get 30 days or so in the county jail.

And do not forget the people who work swing and night shifts, and need
to sleep.

All my motos have EPA noise compliant pipes, and I make it a point to
keep revs down to about 2½ times idle speed or less until I get out of
the neighborhood and onto the main arterial street.

[Dan O]

On May 18, 11:30 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

But the Norton or Triumph would mop up the track with you at Ascot or
Peoria.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/19/2012 9:33 AM, A. Muzi wrote:
> Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 5/16/2012 12:56 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
>>> !Jones<sdaf...@lsdhf.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You
>>>> simply cannot say that a person's vehicle reflects his or her
>>>> personality.
>>>
>>> I think in many cases you can, actually.
>>>
>> Anyone who rides with straight pipes in residential areas is
>> anti-social. Especially when they make it a point to be as loud as
>> possible for as long as possible.
>>
>
> Anti social is not necessarily a vice. My experience in my neighborhood
> paints it as a virtue. Hey didn't you live in Milwaukee's Core once
> yourself?
>

No, but I worked in Havenwoods (across the street from Sun Components)
in "da 'hood" for a couple of years. There you did not want to piss
people off, since many (illegally) carried guns, and/or drove
unlicensed/stolen vehicles without insurance.

The social breakdown occurred following President Ray Gun's
de-industrialization of the country in the early 1980's, when the living
wage manufacturing jobs went away, never to return (as high unemployment
among minorities benefits the system where corrupt government intel,
military, law enforcement, judiciary, and prisons work hand-in-hand with
the drug cartels for mutual profit).

[AMuzi]

You forgot to mention AIDS, obesity, dropping math scores in
the schools, Chicago alewives, Chernobyl and the lack of a
good 5 cent cigar.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

K 0 to 8? Or the '79-82 DOHC K?

> Oh, and I have owned a harley or two in the past. They just don't trip
> my trigger anymore than your crotch rocket does.
>

The only H-D that ever appealed to me visually is the current XR1200
(too bad it has the old Evolution lump, instead of the Porsche designed
Revolution engine). But then I have never liked chrome or decorative
features. And of course, I lack the proper attitude to ride a H-D. :)

>
>>
>> So of us actually like the advances in handling, braking, and
>> performance developed over the last half-century, and in
>> particular the last decade.
>
> And yet, you are still chasing the 1968 Norton Commando S in all those
> areas. The Commando S is a 1940s design with the best frame and forks
> ever made. The Engine dates back to 1952 where it was very strong even
> then. Claimed HP was 66 for import reasons, tested HP was over 122 hp.
> On a less than 400 lb bike. Your 600 is heavier and has less HP. Do the
> math on this one.
>

The published curb weight for the Commando 750S is 191 kg (420 lb.) dry
[1]. My CBR600F4i is 375/410 lb. dry/wet. Sorry.

Better frame and forks (and rear suspension) than modern sport-bikes?
Really?

And drum brakes versus modern disc brakes? Really? And let us not even
go into how much better tires are available for the CBR.

Any cite for the 122-HP claim (which would be amazing for a OHV,
air-cooled, 4-stroke, 2-valve/cylinder, under-square (73 x 89 mm bore
and stroke), 9.0:1 compression ratio, Amal carburetors, 745cc parallel
twin made with the metallurgy available in the late 1960's)? Also,
published tests indicate top speeds of about 110-115 mph for the
standard Commando and 120-125 mph for the Commando S, which is much
slower than the top end of ~157 mph for the CBR600F4i (a fair indication
of real horsepower).

I can find several published dyno tests [2] for the CBR600F4i which
indicate 95-98 HP at the rear wheel, which means about 107-110 HP at the
crank. And the Honda does not leak oil, and they do not seem to blow up
either, even when abused by squids.

I think someone has been telling you myth and lore [3] about the Commando S.

> And before 1968, there was the Vincent Black Shadow. Of course, the
> Black Shadow may have been powerful, manueverable, quick but it couldn't
> stop to save it's own life. Well, you get 1 out of 4 on that one.
>

Anyone actually run the Black Shadow hard on the track against a modern
super-sport, with documented results? Of course, this is a generally
daft idea on any bike that age (which is why vintage racers tend to be
mostly reproduction parts that have not suffered from inevitable metal
fatigue from use and other factors that weaken old parts).

Or does the Vincent also have a reputation that exceeds reality? Best
in the world in 1950-something does not mean anywhere near the best in
2010-something.

> But on the 68 Norton Commando, you are still chasing it in ALL
> Categories. The other racers in the Isle of Man sure were happy when the
> 68 was no longer able to run in the Stock Unlimited class due to the
> year allowance.
>

Cite any racing results of the Commando against any super-sport bike
built in the 21st Century?

> The fact remains, like the 68 Norton, your CBR600 is still too much bike
> if you push it. The only difference here is that the 68 Norton kills you
> quicker.

The CBR600F4i is not too much bike for a skilled rider (not necessarily
me) on a track.

The Norton will kill a person faster due to its suspension, braking, and
frame being four decades behind that of a modern super-sport bike.

[1]
<http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/norton/norton_commando_750s%2069.htm>.
[2]
<http://www.sportrider.com/performance_numbers/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_78.html>.
[3] A J. Brandtism for RBT readers.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Having the foot pegs back on the NT700V (which subjectively feel much
further forward than those on the CBR600F4i) allows for easier standing
and body repositioning than the cruiser foot-forward position.

In fact, when I ride my Honda Elite [1] I often put my feet back so my
heels are just below the "PGM-FI" stickers rather than on the
floorboards, to allow for body positioning while cornering and some grip
on the seat with my legs.

And I would rather be seen on a scooter than a H-D - I want to be the
"Nicest Person You Meet on a Honda", not a pretend "bad-ass 1% MC
member". And of course, my lid [2] does *not* go well with a H-D. :)

[1]
<https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/406927_2725085617821_1577568887_2571968_1278153523_n.jpg>.
[2]
<https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/378769_2569496848199_1577568887_2509327_1778012096_n.jpg>.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Let us run the Norton or Triumph (with equally skilled riders on all
bikes) against my CBR600F4i at Road America and see what happens. :)

Or ride the Norton and Triumph against my NT700V for 2,000 miles in 3
days in cold, rainy weather, and see who is feeling better at the end of
the trip. :)

[Daryl]

Easy answer. Your bike with equal rider should handle the
Triumph but the Norton will blow your doors off. You just played
into where it shined.

>
> Or ride the Norton and Triumph against my NT700V for 2,000 miles
> in 3 days in cold, rainy weather, and see who is feeling better
> at the end of the trip. :)

There was a full dress model of the Norton and the Triumph so
don't use that as a reason. Plus, the foot pegs on both the
Triumph and the Norton are more forward than your NT700V is.

The NT700V is a converted crotch rocket with a mini faring on it
with some snazzy bags added. If you want something from Honda
that is designed for touring, the best is still the Gold Wing.
Honda knows this and prices this bike higher than many Cars and
Trucks.

You brought a compromise to the equation. And both of your bikes
are either a crotch rocket or a converted crotch rocket. When
comparing the against the Norton in a Road Race the ONLY thing
you might have is better braking but not by much as he was over
braked for that time. All the other things go to the norton.

In 20 years, no one else will remember your bikes. They are nice
and do what you wish for them to do so you will remember them.
But the 68 Norton Commando will still be sought after and
remembered by many.

[Daryl]

You keep jabbing at the HD style. News Flash, nothing is more
annoying than a high winder that is reaching that rev limiter in
5 gears.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Whatever dude. Show some cites for the legendary performance of a more
than four decade old motorcycle. And I hate to tell you this, but the
CBR600F4i has no doors. ;)

My CBR600F4i has a higher *specific* power output than the winning
Formula 1 cars of the 1970's. And you expect us to believe that a
street legal (or at least street ride-able) motorcycle of a decade
earlier (than the F1 cars) had higher specific output? And that the
Norton engineers of the 1960's could produce a better engine than *any*
engineering department of a motorcycle manufacturer four decades later?
This does not pass the smell test.

>>
>> Or ride the Norton and Triumph against my NT700V for 2,000 miles
>> in 3 days in cold, rainy weather, and see who is feeling better
>> at the end of the trip. :)
>
> There was a full dress model of the Norton and the Triumph so don't use
> that as a reason. Plus, the foot pegs on both the Triumph and the Norton
> are more forward than your NT700V is.
>

So? And we were discussion the particular Norton that Andy Muzi posted
a link to. Does not look like a full-dresser to me. And would the
full-dresser Norton still be faster on a road course?

> The NT700V is a converted crotch rocket with a mini faring on it with
> some snazzy bags added. If you want something from Honda that is
> designed for touring, the best is still the Gold Wing. Honda knows this
> and prices this bike higher than many Cars and Trucks.
>

While the NT700V engine dates back to the Hawk GT of the late 1980's,
the frame is not a version of any Honda sport-bike.

The Honda Gold Wing is much more expensive than the NT700V due to
greater complexity and features (think a flat-6 is a little more
expensive to build than a V-twin or even the V-4 in the ST1100/1300?),
not the riding position.

And why capitalize "Cars and Trucks"? They are not proper names in this
context.

> You brought a compromise to the equation. And both of your bikes are
> either a crotch rocket or a converted crotch rocket.

"Sport-bike" and "sport-touring" please. The term "crotch rocket" is
only used by silly people.

> When comparing the
> against the Norton in a Road Race the ONLY thing you might have is
> better braking but not by much as he was over braked for that time. All
> the other things go to the norton.
>

Norton Commando's are male? Did not know that. ;)

Any cites for lap times showing a Norton Commando 750S is faster than
any post 2000 vintage super-sport?

> In 20 years, no one else will remember your bikes. They are nice and do
> what you wish for them to do so you will remember them. But the 68
> Norton Commando will still be sought after and remembered by many.

Where does the Church of the Norton Commando meet? ;)

20 years from now, people will remember the Yamaha TW200, since it will
still be in production, relatively unchanged. ;)

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Well, almost all of the people who cruise around town with
straight-pipes are on H-D motorcycles. Try that on a sport-bike, and
the cops will ticket you (as many of them violate the law themselves on
straight-pipe H-D's when off duty, and therefore enforce to a
double-standard). The loud noise is because they enjoy annoying others
while pretending to be "bad-ass", not because it has any other
significant advantage.

My CBR600F4i will reach its top speed and the rev limiter at 157 mph in
5th gear. I guarantee that even a top MotoGP rider would soon be dead
from hitting something large and hard if they tried to ride at that
speed in a residential neighborhood. Revving an un-muffled, large
displacement V-twin while sitting still is much safer (until an
irritated neighbor runs them over with a SUV or pick-em-up truck - OK,
wishful thinking on my part).

"Loud Pipes Save Lives" is an unproven bit of Myth & Lore™, and claiming
laws against excessive noise are a violation of freedom [1], is like
claiming the right to gun ownership allows the freedom to send bullets
any which way one pleases - cannot be done without violating the rights
of others.

[1] I have seen both claims many times, and am not claiming that Daryl
posted so, so this is not a straw-man.

[Daryl]

Sorry, curb weight on the 68 (note the year) Commando 750S is 395
as tested by Cycle Magazine. And you don't carry more than 122
HP. The Norton was like the Duke 993, race ready out of the box
where yours would have to have a ton of things done to it to get
it ready for race.

>
> Better frame and forks (and rear suspension) than modern
> sport-bikes? Really?

The Forks and Frame were often modded to fit all sorts of bikes
for racing. And this was for Unlimited NON Stock Classes. That
means, Monsters.

>
> And drum brakes versus modern disc brakes? Really? And let us not
> even go into how much better tires are available for the CBR.
>
> Any cite for the 122-HP claim (which would be amazing for a OHV,
> air-cooled, 4-stroke, 2-valve/cylinder, under-square (73 x 89 mm
> bore and stroke), 9.0:1 compression ratio, Amal carburetors,
> 745cc parallel twin made with the metallurgy available in the
> late 1960's)? Also, published tests indicate top speeds of about
> 110-115 mph for the standard Commando and 120-125 mph for the
> Commando S, which is much slower than the top end of ~157 mph for
> the CBR600F4i (a fair indication of real horsepower).

You read the Brochures I see. In 1967 when the 68 was
introduced, bikes were limited in not only HP but top speed.
Many bikes that were imported had a much higher rating in both
cases than the brochure. Well, all except the CB750 which was
rated higher than it really was.

Most of the Cites today are gone for good. Many Cycle Mags went
out of business before the internet. I haven't seen a decent
replacement that Dynos out the Bikes in more than 3 decades.
It's like buying the fuel mileage rates of cars. (They are never
really tested). And the lawsuits that are going on now over one
"Hybrid" that can't make those claims on a good day and a tailwind.

The Test on the Norton was done on a dyno. At the rear wheels.
They also tested the 55 hp CB750 Honda at 45 hp. They also
tested many other bikes including the HD1200 (disqualified for
ported and polished heads), Kawasaki 500 (tested less than 45 HP
with the lowest torque, they put it back on the trailer and left
it. Never bring a knife to a gun fight), the Brand New Triumph
Trident, tested over 90 hp. (the trident/Rocket3 are listed as
the First Modern Superbike). The results of the test mirrored
closely the 1968 through 1978 Isles of Mann Unlimited Production
Class in results. In 1976, the 68 Norton Commando 750 S was no
longer allowed to compete due to it's age. Norton had gone to
the 850S which was laden down with smog crap by then and killed
the bikes performance. Plus, the 850 grew by over 100 lbs. What
you see in this paragraph is the death of two of the leading
Motorcycle Production Companies that didn't survive into the 80s.
Not because the product wasn't good enough but that they
changed their monsters into cream puffs or couldn't make up their
minds on what to produce. Both went under nearing 1980. The
Cheaper, slower, louder Japanese Bikes started making their way.
To be specific, those bikes based largely on the CB750K. And
the Honda 750 was way detuned most of the time and was a better
motor than originally tested.

Getting those two companies out of the way allowed the Japanese
to begin their dominance. Not to fear, Ducati has been beating
up the Japanese Bikes all along with the Desmadromal Engined 350s
and up for a very long time. When the 350 Duke met the Kawa 500
first at Isles of Man, the Duke trounced it and when you see a
Duke 993, leave it alone today, he's race prepped from the
Factory (Change the oil, change the filters and go racing).

>
> I can find several published dyno tests [2] for the CBR600F4i
> which indicate 95-98 HP at the rear wheel, which means about
> 107-110 HP at the crank. And the Honda does not leak oil, and
> they do not seem to blow up either, even when abused by squids.

In 1968, if you bike stopped leaking oil, you were out of oil. :)

>
> I think someone has been telling you myth and lore [3] about the
> Commando S.

Nope, the mags that did the actual rearwheeled dyno test of the
68 Norton Commando S has long since gone by the way. Today, most
Writers are too lazy to do the work themselves or won't spend the
bucks for the proper tests. The figure of 122+ at the rear
wheels is accurate.

>
>> And before 1968, there was the Vincent Black Shadow. Of course,
>> the
>> Black Shadow may have been powerful, manueverable, quick but it
>> couldn't
>> stop to save it's own life. Well, you get 1 out of 4 on that one.
>>
> Anyone actually run the Black Shadow hard on the track against a
> modern super-sport, with documented results? Of course, this is a
> generally daft idea on any bike that age (which is why vintage
> racers tend to be mostly reproduction parts that have not
> suffered from inevitable metal fatigue from use and other factors
> that weaken old parts).

No one takes a Black Shadow much over idle these days. There are
so few left. It's a legendary Bike from the 40s designed in the
early 40s. And it was hand built designed to be worked on by the
riders. Less than 1700 were manufactured, all hand made.

>
> Or does the Vincent also have a reputation that exceeds reality?
> Best in the world in 1950-something does not mean anywhere near
> the best in 2010-something.

Hate to break it to you but your 600 is not even close to being
world class. I suggest you avoid any Duke 993 that comes your
way. Now, HE'S world class.

>
>> But on the 68 Norton Commando, you are still chasing it in ALL
>> Categories. The other racers in the Isle of Man sure were happy
>> when the
>> 68 was no longer able to run in the Stock Unlimited class due
>> to the
>> year allowance.
>>
> Cite any racing results of the Commando against any super-sport
> bike built in the 21st Century?

Not going to happen. Today, the 68 Norton 750S Commando is
considered a collectors bike. No one in their right mind would
ride them like that anymore. Parts aren't to be had if you break
them.

>
>> The fact remains, like the 68 Norton, your CBR600 is still too
>> much bike
>> if you push it. The only difference here is that the 68 Norton
>> kills you
>> quicker.
>
> The CBR600F4i is not too much bike for a skilled rider (not
> necessarily me) on a track.
>
> The Norton will kill a person faster due to its suspension,
> braking, and frame being four decades behind that of a modern
> super-sport bike.

It dominated racing in a time where speed and fuel limits didn't
exist. MC Racing has slowed down a bit to keep from killing as
many riders.

>
> [1]
> <http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/norton/norton_commando_750s%2069.htm>.

1970 Norton didn't have the muscles of a 67/68 Norton S. And I
question anything where the Data is incorrect. According to the
Author, the Commando S was introduced in Mar 1969 when it was
clearly introduced in Sept 1967. So far, all the "Writers" out
there all claim that they rode the commando S and all used the
Sales Lit as their Dyno and Road Test but they kept the bike
inside the legal speed limit. Tells me a heap of something here.

>
> [2]
> <http://www.sportrider.com/performance_numbers/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_78.html>.
>
> [3] A J. Brandtism for RBT readers.

Doesn't mean a thing. The only way that a real comparison can be
done is the way they did it in 1968 and that is a head to head.
Paper lies, pavement doesn't. And that's not going to happen
since the 68 Norton Commando 750S is now a collector. It's like
taking an Original Ford GT40 out to race it even if it's
competitive even today. No one does that. You break it, it
stays broken until a new part can be fabricated to replace the
original part which lowers the worth of the original.

In 44 years, no one will remember your 600 or your 700. Both
will be consigned to be recycled long before that. But the
Norton Commando 1968 750S will still be in shows and sought
after. That is the mark of greatness.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Where is the citation for this 122 horsepower? That number defies
reality for what the engine is. And how did the Commando gain 25 pounds
in a year?

Really? Yeah, all I would need to do to race is tape up or remove the
lights (required by law for street use), replace the coolant with water
(a dumb idea on a street bike), and safety wire a few things. Hardly a
"ton". One wonders if you are actually familiar with modern sport-bikes?

>>
>> Better frame and forks (and rear suspension) than modern
>> sport-bikes? Really?
>
> The Forks and Frame were often modded to fit all sorts of bikes for
> racing. And this was for Unlimited NON Stock Classes. That means, Monsters.
>

Uh, since "Monsters" is capitalized, it must be a proper name, hence
referring to the Ducati Monster.

And sorry, but GP level racing suspensions and frames in 1968 were
inferior to what is found on street legal sport-bikes today. Even when
capitalized.

>
>>
>> And drum brakes versus modern disc brakes? Really? And let us not
>> even go into how much better tires are available for the CBR.
>>
>> Any cite for the 122-HP claim (which would be amazing for a OHV,
>> air-cooled, 4-stroke, 2-valve/cylinder, under-square (73 x 89 mm
>> bore and stroke), 9.0:1 compression ratio, Amal carburetors,
>> 745cc parallel twin made with the metallurgy available in the
>> late 1960's)? Also, published tests indicate top speeds of about
>> 110-115 mph for the standard Commando and 120-125 mph for the
>> Commando S, which is much slower than the top end of ~157 mph for
>> the CBR600F4i (a fair indication of real horsepower).
>
> You read the Brochures I see. In 1967 when the 68 was introduced, bikes
> were limited in not only HP but top speed. Many bikes that were imported
> had a much higher rating in both cases than the brochure. Well, all
> except the CB750 which was rated higher than it really was.
>

Cite for these tests?

> Most of the Cites today are gone for good. Many Cycle Mags went out of
> business before the internet. I haven't seen a decent replacement that
> Dynos out the Bikes in more than 3 decades. It's like buying the fuel
> mileage rates of cars. (They are never really tested). And the lawsuits
> that are going on now over one "Hybrid" that can't make those claims on
> a good day and a tailwind.
>

Those magazines exist in some library archive somewhere. Not producing
a cite makes one suspect you are merely repeating Myth & Lore™.

> The Test on the Norton was done on a dyno. At the rear wheels. They also
> tested the 55 hp CB750 Honda at 45 hp. They also tested many other bikes
> including the HD1200 (disqualified for ported and polished heads),
> Kawasaki 500 (tested less than 45 HP with the lowest torque, they put it
> back on the trailer and left it. Never bring a knife to a gun fight),
> the Brand New Triumph Trident, tested over 90 hp. (the trident/Rocket3
> are listed as the First Modern Superbike). The results of the test
> mirrored closely the 1968 through 1978 Isles of Mann Unlimited
> Production Class in results. In 1976, the 68 Norton Commando 750 S was
> no longer allowed to compete due to it's age. Norton had gone to the
> 850S which was laden down with smog crap by then and killed the bikes
> performance. Plus, the 850 grew by over 100 lbs. What you see in this
> paragraph is the death of two of the leading Motorcycle Production
> Companies that didn't survive into the 80s. Not because the product
> wasn't good enough but that they changed their monsters into cream puffs
> or couldn't make up their minds on what to produce. Both went under
> nearing 1980. The Cheaper, slower, louder Japanese Bikes started making
> their way. To be specific, those bikes based largely on the CB750K. And
> the Honda 750 was way detuned most of the time and was a better motor
> than originally tested.
>

Your point being? I showed a published curve for a stock 2006 CBR600F4i
(the year I have) with a peak of 97.3 HP at the rear wheel. You merely
repeat a 122 HP claim without backing it up.

Hey, it is OK to post that you mis-remembered something.

> Getting those two companies out of the way allowed the Japanese to begin
> their dominance. Not to fear, Ducati has been beating up the Japanese
> Bikes all along with the Desmadromal Engined 350s and up for a very long
> time. When the 350 Duke met the Kawa 500 first at Isles of Man, the Duke
> trounced it and when you see a Duke 993, leave it alone today, he's race
> prepped from the Factory (Change the oil, change the filters and go
> racing).
>

Really? How come Rossi and Hayden are getting their VW-Ducati arses
kicked in MotoGP by Honda and Yamaha?

And for WSKB, the rules are written to allow an unfair advantage to
Ducati. Let us see VW-Ducati compete with the same displacement engine.

>
>>
>> I can find several published dyno tests [2] for the CBR600F4i
>> which indicate 95-98 HP at the rear wheel, which means about
>> 107-110 HP at the crank. And the Honda does not leak oil, and
>> they do not seem to blow up either, even when abused by squids.
>
> In 1968, if you bike stopped leaking oil, you were out of oil. :)
>

There is a reason why the British got stomped by the Japanese. In 1968,
Japanese bikes did not leak oil on a regular basis.

>
>>
>> I think someone has been telling you myth and lore [3] about the
>> Commando S.
>
> Nope, the mags that did the actual rearwheeled dyno test of the 68
> Norton Commando S has long since gone by the way. Today, most Writers
> are too lazy to do the work themselves or won't spend the bucks for the
> proper tests. The figure of 122+ at the rear wheels is accurate.
>

Cite?

>
>>
>>> And before 1968, there was the Vincent Black Shadow. Of course,
>>> the
>>> Black Shadow may have been powerful, manueverable, quick but it
>>> couldn't
>>> stop to save it's own life. Well, you get 1 out of 4 on that one.
>>>
>> Anyone actually run the Black Shadow hard on the track against a
>> modern super-sport, with documented results? Of course, this is a
>> generally daft idea on any bike that age (which is why vintage
>> racers tend to be mostly reproduction parts that have not
>> suffered from inevitable metal fatigue from use and other factors
>> that weaken old parts).
>
> No one takes a Black Shadow much over idle these days. There are so few
> left. It's a legendary Bike from the 40s designed in the early 40s. And
> it was hand built designed to be worked on by the riders. Less than 1700
> were manufactured, all hand made.
>

Excuses, excuses.

>>
>> Or does the Vincent also have a reputation that exceeds reality?
>> Best in the world in 1950-something does not mean anywhere near
>> the best in 2010-something.
>
> Hate to break it to you but your 600 is not even close to being world
> class. I suggest you avoid any Duke 993 that comes your way. Now, HE'S
> world class.
>

Gee, with nearly 40% more displacement it is faster? </sarcasm>

Run any stock 993 VW-Ducati against a stock Fireblade, ZX-10R,
GSX-R1000, or YZF-R1 on the track and see what happens.

>
>>
>>> But on the 68 Norton Commando, you are still chasing it in ALL
>>> Categories. The other racers in the Isle of Man sure were happy
>>> when the
>>> 68 was no longer able to run in the Stock Unlimited class due
>>> to the
>>> year allowance.
>>>
>> Cite any racing results of the Commando against any super-sport
>> bike built in the 21st Century?
>
> Not going to happen. Today, the 68 Norton 750S Commando is considered a
> collectors bike. No one in their right mind would ride them like that
> anymore. Parts aren't to be had if you break them.
>

Excuses, excuses. Parts can be made by a competent machinist. Heck,
entire reproduction copies of several vintage motorcycles are now being
made.

>
>>
>>> The fact remains, like the 68 Norton, your CBR600 is still too
>>> much bike
>>> if you push it. The only difference here is that the 68 Norton
>>> kills you
>>> quicker.
>>
>> The CBR600F4i is not too much bike for a skilled rider (not
>> necessarily me) on a track.
>>
>> The Norton will kill a person faster due to its suspension,
>> braking, and frame being four decades behind that of a modern
>> super-sport bike.
>
> It dominated racing in a time where speed and fuel limits didn't exist.
> MC Racing has slowed down a bit to keep from killing as many riders.
>

Gee, think if this guy was on a Norton Commando 750S, how much faster he
would be going.

<https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/532838_455004007858475_126940813998131_1698221_1273827419_n.jpg>.

</sarcasm>

>>
>> [1]
>> <http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/norton/norton_commando_750s%2069.htm>.
>>
>
> 1970 Norton didn't have the muscles of a 67/68 Norton S. And I question
> anything where the Data is incorrect. According to the Author, the
> Commando S was introduced in Mar 1969 when it was clearly introduced in
> Sept 1967. So far, all the "Writers" out there all claim that they rode
> the commando S and all used the Sales Lit as their Dyno and Road Test
> but they kept the bike inside the legal speed limit. Tells me a heap of
> something here.
>

I question someone who continually makes unrealistic claims with nothing
but assertion to back it up.

>
>>
>> [2]
>> <http://www.sportrider.com/performance_numbers/sportbike_dyno_charts/photo_78.html>.
>>
>>
>> [3] A J. Brandtism for RBT readers.
>
> Doesn't mean a thing. The only way that a real comparison can be done is
> the way they did it in 1968 and that is a head to head. Paper lies,
> pavement doesn't. And that's not going to happen since the 68 Norton
> Commando 750S is now a collector. It's like taking an Original Ford GT40
> out to race it even if it's competitive even today. No one does that.
> You break it, it stays broken until a new part can be fabricated to
> replace the original part which lowers the worth of the original.
>

Excuses, excuses.

> In 44 years, no one will remember your 600 or your 700. Both will be
> consigned to be recycled long before that. But the Norton Commando 1968
> 750S will still be in shows and sought after. That is the mark of
> greatness.

To put is politely, I believe you are blowing smoke up our arses.

[Dan O]

The Triumph or Norton would mop up the track with you at Scot or
Peoria.

[Daryl]

On 5/19/2012 11:40 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/19/2012 5:12 PM, Daryl wrote:
>
> To put is politely, I believe you are blowing smoke up our arses.
>

Well, now we can end this discussion. If it's Japanese, it's
better. If it's made today, it's better. If it's made in the
USA, it's inferior. Someone care to explain that to a B-52?

Have a nice day.

[Jared]

On 5/20/2012 4:18 AM, Daryl wrote:
> On 5/19/2012 11:40 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 5/19/2012 5:12 PM, Daryl wrote:
>>
>> To put is politely, I believe you are blowing smoke up our arses.
>>
>
> Well, now we can end this discussion. If it's Japanese, it's better. If
> it's made today, it's better. If it's made in the USA, it's inferior.
> Someone care to explain that to a B-52?
>
> Have a nice day.

My car was made in Africa, and my first motorcycle (that I traded last
year) was made in Southeast Asia. I prefer either one to a B-52, as they
get better gas mileage and have superior road-holding abilities.

--
Jared

[Daryl]

Yes, but can they lay waste entire fields with ease? And does
your car of bike have a 5000+ mile range? Puts things in a
totally different light when trying to figure out which is badder.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/20/2012 3:18 AM, Daryl wrote:
> On 5/19/2012 11:40 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 5/19/2012 5:12 PM, Daryl wrote:
>>
>> To put is politely, I believe you are blowing smoke up our arses.
>>
>
> Well, now we can end this discussion. If it's Japanese, it's better.

In terms of value and reliability, yes. The Japanese manufacturers have
larger research and development budgets, as they also make products
other than specialty motorcycles, and also benefit from technology
transfer from these other areas.

Of course, all too often (not necessarily in this case), anti-Asian
racial prejudice rears its head when Japanese products are discussed
versus USian and European products. Familiar with the terms "Jap crap",
"rice burner", etc?

Note that during its racing success days, MV Augusta did not make enough
money from selling motorcycles to support the activity, but rather from
sales of helicopters to the military market. The only current European
moto manufacturer with similar resources o the Japanese is Ducati, now
that it has been purchased by the VAG, who makes the real money selling
automobiles (and to lesser extents BMW Motorrad (automobiles, of course)
and Piaggio (various utility vehicles and military equipment)).

> If it's made today, it's better.

Ever hear of technical progress? All else being equal, the materials
available today will make for better performance. There is no way an
engine made with the metals and processes available in 1968, and running
the lubricants then used can compete with something 40 years newer.
Same for shocks, tires, forks, etc. To claim so is ridiculous, unless
you believe in mythical lost secrets (the reverse is true, since
engineers have the benefit of 4 decades additional experience).

> If it's made in the USA, it's inferior.

Well, H-D came to the conclusion right after the management buyout from
AMF that they did not have the resources to compete with the Japanese on
technology, so they decided to market their product based on styling,
emotion, and "lifestyle". Fine, but don't claim that all other bikes
are crap, or that H-D leads in technology and performance, as all too
many H-D riders do based on a cult like following of the brand.

Did H-D introduce tubeless tires, radial tires, disc brakes, ABS,
inverted forks, mono-shock rear suspension, linkage rear suspension,
single-sided swing-arms, dual-circuit damping, adjustable preload and
damping, steering dampers, liquid cooling, overhead cam engines,
multi-valve/cylinder engines, titanium valves, progressive valve springs
and computer designed cam profiles to eliminate valve "float", fuel
injection, variable/multi-stage air intakes, variable valve timing,
electronic engine control, drive-by-wire throttle control, traction
control, rider controlled engine mapping, etc to the mass production
motorcycle market?

> Someone care to explain that to a B-52?
>

Well, a B-52 is about as outdated as an air-cooled H-D cruiser.
Consider that the B-52 has only been used in combat in situations of
near total air superiority - would they have really been able to
penetrate Soviet air-space?

> Have a nice day.

I would if you produce a credible source for a stock, air-cooled,
parallel twin, 2-valve/cylinder, 745cc engine made in 1968 producing 122
HP, when a modern, I-4, 4-valve/cylinder, liquid cooled, and
fuel-injected sport-bike engine is barely above that range (120 to 127
HP at the rear wheel indicates around 130-140 HP at the crank).

Here are some published dyno charts for the Suzuki GSX-R750:
<http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/291997-2/2011-Suzuki-GSX-R750-vs-Suzuki-GSX-R600_Dyno-HP.jpg>,
<http://image.sportrider.com/f/18278548+w750+st0/146_14+sportbike_performance_dyno_charts+suzuki_GSX_r750_dyno_chart.jpg>,
<http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/roadtests/8845836++w760+ar1/04gsxr750-dyno-lg.jpg>,
<http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/69539/Motorcycle-Photo-Gallery-Photo/2011-Suzuki-GSX-R750-Track-Shootout.aspx>.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/20/2012 3:17 AM, Dan O wrote:
>
> The Triumph or Norton would mop up the track with you at Scot or
> Peoria.

But Road America? I don't think so.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

It is also hard to filter through traffic in a B-52, not to mention
finding a suitable parking spot.

[Daryl]

You don't Thread your way through Traffic. You obliterate the
other traffic.

After you do that, every space is a suitable parking spot.



--

[Daryl]

On 5/20/2012 9:21 AM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 3:18 AM, Daryl wrote:

>
>> Someone care to explain that to a B-52?
>>
> Well, a B-52 is about as outdated as an air-cooled H-D cruiser.
> Consider that the B-52 has only been used in combat in situations
> of near total air superiority - would they have really been able
> to penetrate Soviet air-space?

They called it "Going Downtown". The Migs would come up and
play. And the AA and Sams were thick as flies. And quite a few
Buffs were lost.

The Bombers no longer have to penetrate so deeply now. They use
standoffs for nukes these days. And the Buff carries tons of
tons of these things. When you build it right the first time......

It's so outdated they can't come up with something to replace it.

[J. Clarke]

In article <jpb256$1co$1...@dont-email.me>, "Tom $herman (-_-)" says...

>
> On 5/20/2012 3:18 AM, Daryl wrote:
> > On 5/19/2012 11:40 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:

> > Someone care to explain that to a B-52?
> >
> Well, a B-52 is about as outdated as an air-cooled H-D cruiser.
> Consider that the B-52 has only been used in combat in situations of
> near total air superiority - would they have really been able to
> penetrate Soviet air-space?

The B-47 did successfully on numerous occasions and the Soviets never
managed to shoot one down. Also, Hanoi during the Vietnam war had air
defenses equivalent to those around Moscow, which did not prove
sufficient to deter B-52 strikes. So yes, the B-52 would have been able
to penetrate Soviet airspace.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/20/2012 10:44 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article<jpb256$1co$1...@dont-email.me>, "Tom $herman (-_-)" says...
>>
>> On 5/20/2012 3:18 AM, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2012 11:40 PM, Tom $herman (-_-)> wrote:
>
>>> Someone care to explain that to a B-52?
>>>
>> Well, a B-52 is about as outdated as an air-cooled H-D cruiser.
>> Consider that the B-52 has only been used in combat in situations of
>> near total air superiority - would they have really been able to
>> penetrate Soviet air-space?
>
> The B-47 did successfully on numerous occasions and the Soviets never
> managed to shoot one down.

Uh, when did the US fight a war against the Soviet Union (other than
putting about 13K boots on the ground during the immediate post WW1
period, which of course pre-dated the B-47)? And flying a bit into East
German airspace is not the same as going all the way to Moscow (for
which you need a Cessna 172).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust>

> Also, Hanoi during the Vietnam war had air
> defenses equivalent to those around Moscow, which did not prove
> sufficient to deter B-52 strikes. So yes, the B-52 would have been able
> to penetrate Soviet airspace.
>

Oh yes, the North Vietnamese had well trained fighter pilots, state of
the air aircraft, and large numerical superiority as the Soviets would
have had in the theoretical (but planned) mission of the B-52 flying
well into Soviet territory to deliver nuclear weapons.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 5/20/2012 11:00 AM, Daryl wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 9:21 AM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 3:18 AM, Daryl wrote:
>
>>
>>> Someone care to explain that to a B-52?
>>>
>> Well, a B-52 is about as outdated as an air-cooled H-D cruiser.
>> Consider that the B-52 has only been used in combat in situations
>> of near total air superiority - would they have really been able
>> to penetrate Soviet air-space?
>
> They called it "Going Downtown". The Migs would come up and play. And
> the AA and Sams were thick as flies. And quite a few Buffs were lost.
>

Nothing like what the Soviets would have put up at the start of a war.

> The Bombers no longer have to penetrate so deeply now. They use
> standoffs for nukes these days. And the Buff carries tons of tons of
> these things. When you build it right the first time......
>
> It's so outdated they can't come up with something to replace it.
>

So why have hundreds of billions of dollars been spent on the B-1 and
B-2 programs?

[Daryl]

The B-1 and B-2 both will also do standoff. Are you aware there
would have been a Soviet Fighter on US Fighter not far above the
Canadian Border all the way to the southern part of Siberia?

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Well, B-52 launched cruise missiles came along well after the B-52.
Also, while I would have expected US Air Force and Navy fighter pilots
to have great success against Soviet MIGs and Sukhois in relatively even
numbers, the Soviets went with the cheaper but more approach. Air
superiority would have been far from assured, as it would have often
been 3 to 4 Soviet fighters to 1 US fighter.

Not that this would have mattered, as the US submarine fleet would have
launched ballistic missiles in overwhelmingly destructive numbers, not
to mention the ICBM's of SAC. Both heavy bombers and the lighter
bombers (e.g. B-58 and Navy fighter bombers) with nuclear weapons would
be little more than a side-show in MAD.

The only advantage of bombers over ICBM's is the ability to call off an
attack if launched by mistake. Not sure if this ever happened in the
US, but the Soviets came close at least once due to false interpretation
of information. Fortunately, cool heads prevailed, and it was confirmed
that no US attack was occurring, or none of us would be riding our motos
this weekend.

[!Jones]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 15:40:21 -0500, in alt.war.vietnam "Tom $herman
(-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net"> wrote:

>Well, B-52 launched cruise missiles came along well after the B-52.
>Also, while I would have expected US Air Force and Navy fighter pilots
>to have great success against Soviet MIGs and Sukhois in relatively even
>numbers, the Soviets went with the cheaper but more approach. Air
>superiority would have been far from assured, as it would have often
>been 3 to 4 Soviet fighters to 1 US fighter.
>
>Not that this would have mattered, as the US submarine fleet would have
>launched ballistic missiles in overwhelmingly destructive numbers, not
>to mention the ICBM's of SAC. Both heavy bombers and the lighter
>bombers (e.g. B-58 and Navy fighter bombers) with nuclear weapons would
>be little more than a side-show in MAD.
>
>The only advantage of bombers over ICBM's is the ability to call off an
>attack if launched by mistake. Not sure if this ever happened in the
>US, but the Soviets came close at least once due to false interpretation
>of information. Fortunately, cool heads prevailed, and it was confirmed
>that no US attack was occurring, or none of us would be riding our motos
>this weekend.

Do you carry bombs on your bicycle, Tom? I carry bombs.

They can be lethally... dropped!

Jones