Kranich: Why Hydraulic Rim Brakes, Not Discs?
(PeteCresswell)
durability/long wear.
Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that
Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even
mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed
reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll
ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong?
--
PeteCresswell
landotter
The Maguras make perfect sense for a city going bike. Fragile bike
brake rotors easily get warped and banged up in town. With the Maguras
you get that luxe feel of hydro with a very large rotor that's not
warping or overheating. ;-)
Wouldn't be my 1st choice with linear pull brakes being cheap, mature,
and simple.
As for wearing the rim--that requires both miles and conditions. Other
posters have mentioned the grit in the Pacific Northwest as being very
destructive.
Chalo
>
> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that
> Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even
> mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed
> reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
Disc rotors are far less durable than rims, in terms of mean hours/
miles before failure. They seem like they should be as undemanding as
the disc rotors on my motorcycle, but in practice it becomes clear
they find any excuse to warp or bend.
Drums would be the best choice for longevity, cleanliness, and low
maintenance-- but they require a long break-in, they are fussy about
lever characteristics, they require more hand force, and they feel
mushier when dialed in than good rim or disc brakes. As currently
implemented, they multiply the nuisance involved in removing any
wheel.
It would be nice if there were a category of disc brakes for utility
bikes, with smaller but thicker rotors and larger pads. These most
likely would offer longer maintenance intervals and more durable
rotors. Incidentally, this description covers the Sachs discs brakes
that were used on bicycles before any of the discs we are familiar
with now.
Chalo
Andre Jute
The sort of people who can contemplate buying a Utopia Kranich will
tell you how it will outlast ten cheaper bikes. That's true, of
course, but, for fear of being called elitists, they're not telling
you the real reason they bought it, which is refinement. (The same
applies to people who own Bentleys.) My dealer told me that most
people take the Magura rim brakes, and Utopia ask customers to try the
HS11 brakes as supplied, without the booster, before ordering the
booster. All of this is about refinement. There are no smoother or
more progressive or more controllable bike stoppers than the Magura
HS11 as fitted to Utopia bikes. (I also have bikes with discs and
roller brakes; I'm a big fan of the latter for hooliganning downhill
but nobody pretends Shimano's 70-series rollers are smooth or
progressive.)
As for the "sorglos" aspect, literally "carefree", which we translate
more prosaically as "low maintenance", ask yourself how many times you
will have to change disc brake pads if you take the option of Magura
Louise discs rather than the default of HS11; probably at least five
or six times over the expected life of a rim. You see, what you miss
is that most Utopia owners are very unlikely to do as much as change a
set of pads. They'd take it to the dealer. Moreover, Utopia's ten year
guarantee depends on annual inspections, at which a worn rim will be
noticed by the dealer and replaced. So a rim replacement, to the owner
of Utopia Kranich with Rohloff and SON hubs, seems like a routine job
requiring no special arrangements or allocation of time, whereas a
disc pad replacement upsets his schedule and peace of mind.
Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in
fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles
are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim
brakes are so popular.
I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the
dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes,
very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the
stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another
bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very
carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there,
nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of
refinement.
***
My impression of the people at Utopia is that they've spent more than
a quarter-century thinking hard about what will be functionally
pleasing to their customers. It has made them the best of the custom
builders in Germany, which very likely means in the world. If their
bikes weren't so contemptuous of fashion, precisely because of their
obsessive attention to detail, their persistent attitude that the
merely good is the enemy of the perfect, they would probably be the
size of Trek...
***
The other element of refinement people don't want to talk about
because, in addition to sounding like elitists, it makes them sound
arrogant, is that the smoothness of refinement makes a vehicle, even a
bicycle, feel powerful. Abrupt brakes, or brakes that require constant
attention to avoid a face-plant, would soon undermine that pleasing
perception.
So, paradoxically, the Kranich is a smooth, refined, powerful bike in
a large part because of its effortless progressive stopping behaviour
with the Magura HS 11. Another big input to refinement (and power!) of
precisely the same nature is made by the smooth ride and tenacious
roadholding of the 622x60 Big Apples. The comparison above with a
Bentley isn't fanciful at all.
Andre Jute
A little, a very little thought will suffice -- John Maynard Keynes
thirty-six
The wheels use wide 622 rims. I don't think them exceptional from
normality in any way. Adding a brake rotor detracts from appearance
generally, the typical purchaser would likely have a conservative
attitude. Adding a brake rotor is adding another item for failure
reducing the MTBF.
Tosspot
Not sure I entirely agree with that in a) I don't think they detract
that much[1] and b) I'd prefer a rotor failure to a rim failure.
However, what I did notice was the rotor causes a considerable dish
which I understood was a thing to be minimised in the search for
strong wheels.
[1] Ok, they do a bit, but this is UBT so just cos we agree doesn't
mean we can't argue :)
thirty-six
There are only fools who search for strong wheels for bicycles. It is
simple to make a strong wheel, use a steel disc. What involves a
little more thought is the design which enables a wheel to maintain
lateral rigidity at the road AND not be subjected to excessive radial
rigidity, so the wheel is capable of absorbing shock and assist in
the known duties of the tyre.
The amount of dish is not important if the wheel retains lateral
stability with riding loads. What may matter is that by narrowing the
offset for spoke attatchment at the hub, the radial stiffness of the
wheel may be too great to effect any useful shock absorbtion in the
wheel when lateral stability is obtained. This is why it is important
to improve lateral stability without resort to increasing spoke
tension. As Rudge-Whitworth (largest tension wheel manufacturer in
England and probably the world) found a century ago, the best running
wheels are those which are radially"soft".
>
> [1] Ok, they do a bit, but this is UBT so just cos we agree doesn't
> mean we can't argue :)
(UBT)?
Tosspot
<snip>
>> [1] Ok, they do a bit, but this is UBT so just cos we agree doesn't
>> mean we can't argue :)
>
> (UBT)?
Dog knows how I got from RBT to UBT. I blame posting before the first
coffee of the morning.
Lou Holtman
I think you are wrong. Magura's are exceptional troublefree brakes. If
rim wear bothers you get ceramic rims, like I did. Not only the wear
rate drops to a level that it does not have to bother anyone, but the
braking power increases significant and come very close to hydraulic
disks. On my off road bikes I have:
- Avid Ultimate V brakes,
- Hope Mini's hydraulics,
- Magura HS 33,
- Avid BB7 mechanical disk,
- Formula Oro hydraulics
All good brakes but after the Formula's the Magura's are my favorite brakes.
Lou
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...]
> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in
> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles
> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim
> brakes are so popular.
>
> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the
> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes,
> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the
> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another
> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very
> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there,
> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of
Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to
useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Lou Holtman
And disc's don�t? I have to disagree.
Lou
Tom Sherman °_°
less contaminated.
thirty-six
wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Tom Sherman °_° schreef:
> >>> [...]
> >>> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in
> >>> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles
> >>> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim
> >>> brakes are so popular.
>
> >>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the
> >>> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes,
> >>> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the
> >>> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another
> >>> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very
> >>> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there,
> >>> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of
> >>> refinement.[...]
>
> >> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to
> >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
>
> > And disc's don´t? I have to disagree.
>
> The disc is not a tire's height from the road either, so it get much
> less contaminated.
>
The oil dripping from the hub will still contaminate the tyre.
Dan O
(I'm having my coffee right now.) Understood "Usenet Bike Tech"
perfectly.
Tom Ace
> I think you are wrong. Magura's are exceptional troublefree brakes. If
> rim wear bothers you get ceramic rims, like I did. Not only the wear
> rate drops to a level that it does not have to bother anyone, but the
> braking power increases significant and come very close to hydraulic
> disks.
I don't know what you mean by braking power.
Do you mean getting more braking for a given
amount of effort at at the lever?
When phrased just as "braking power", I don't know what
I would do with more of it (on a single bike, not a tandem).
All my single bikes' front brakes can lift the rear wheel,
and all the rear brakes can skid.
Or do you mean wet weather performance?
Tom Ace
Lou Holtman
> On Nov 8, 5:58 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>> I think you are wrong. Magura's are exceptional troublefree brakes. If
>> rim wear bothers you get ceramic rims, like I did. Not only the wear
>> rate drops to a level that it does not have to bother anyone, but the
>> braking power increases significant and come very close to hydraulic
>> disks.
>
> I don't know what you mean by braking power.
> Do you mean getting more braking for a given
> amount of effort at at the lever?
>
Yes.
> When phrased just as "braking power", I don't know what
> I would do with more of it (on a single bike, not a tandem).
> All my single bikes' front brakes can lift the rear wheel,
> and all the rear brakes can skid.
Work on you technique ;-)
>
> Or do you mean wet weather performance?
Just -m/s2 in any condition.
Lou
Tom Ace
> > I don't know what you mean by braking power.
> > Do you mean getting more braking for a given
> > amount of effort at at the lever?
>
> Yes.
That I understand (although I wouldn't say
"more power" if the difference I was referring
to was one of more mechanical advantage).
> > Or do you mean wet weather performance?
>
> Just -m/s2 in any condition.
In dry weather (which is all there is where I live)
there's no difference between any decent brakes
by that measure. They all have more power than
can be used.
Tom Ace
Lou Holtman
So are you saying that there is no difference in stop distance between
all brakes? Like I said I use all sorts of brakes and they are all good
brakes, even in the wet so I agree with you that any decent brake can do
the job.
Lou
AMuzi
So you use and recommend fixed gear then?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Norman
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
Things might be deaf'rent in Upper Volta, but, having
ridden hundreds of miles in snowy & icy weather, in
ice-storms, through powder, slush, & mud I can't say
that I have ever had snow or ice stick on a rim long
enough to have any serious effect on braking. It's
not that I believe it cannot happen, but rather that
I fail to see the sense in building an entire system
around avoiding something I have never seen,
despite numerous opportunities.
Andre Jute
> Things might be deaf'rent in Upper Volta, but,
Been there, done that, when it was still called Upper Volta. But, even
now that it is called Burkina Faso, there is still no snow and ice,
only dust and mud.
Andre Jute
"Very rough, exciting, filmic, and redolent of a nostalgie de boue
d'Afrique...experienced only by the genuine old Africa hand." --
Alastair Phillips/Glasgow Herald, reviewing my novel Lance of God
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/THE%20WRITER%20Andrew%20McCoy.html
Lou Holtman
> On Nov 8, 10:04 am, Tom Sherman �_�
> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
It is an almost normal reaction from people with disc brakes. Suddenly
rimbrakes have huge disadvantages and become useless. Ridiculous of
course. Rimbrakes have their disadvantages so do (hydraulic) discbrakes
but both can be fine brakes. To me the major disadvantages of rimbrakes
are rimwear and cable fuzz, not the stopping power or modulation. For
road use these disadvantages can't be showstoppers.
Lou
Andre Jute
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
That's a pretty ivory tower view.
At all times maximum retardation of any vehicle is limited by the
coefficient of friction between tyre and road; a bicycle is further
limited by the very high centre of gravity of bicycle and load
including rider. All that this hypothetical snow and ice of yours on
the rim does is to equalize the braking power to safe levels of
somewhere under 0.6g/s^2. Hardly much of a loss when it is unlikely
that most people ever manage to slow faster on their bikes than say
0.4g.
I don't have any snow (to be precise, I don't have snow often enough
or long enough or regularly enough to have much cycling experience in
it) and genuinely icy roads only for a few hours a day at the depth of
the worst winters though still not enough to ice up the rims on my
bike, but I do have wet rims often as we have quite a bit of rain year-
round. I have never found wet rims to slow me appreciably or even
noticeably; I ride the same way and brake the same way wet or dry.
Others, Norman for instance, are reporting the same experience in
colder climes.
The upper *effective real life* limit of bicycle braking, I conclude,
is not affected by choice of brakes (rims brakes cable or hydraulic,
disc brakes, rollers, drums) because, as has been said here often
enough to become axiomatic, the braking power of all decent brakes now
in use exceeds the limits gravity imposes on the rider.
Once reduced to real life then, one doesn't choose brakes for their
absolute stopping power, because all have more than enough regardless
of weather conditions, but for other reasons (initial cost,
durability, maintenance, convenience, fashion, whatever). Magura's
hydraulic rim brakes are a no-brainer for their refinement and
virtually zero maintenance, and they are at the cheap end of good
brakes too.
Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
Ricart Medina
Chalo
>
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to
> >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
> >
> > And disc's don´t? I have to disagree.
>
> The disc is not a tire's height from the road either, so it get much
> less contaminated.
Drum brakes tie with coaster brakes for the win!
Chalo
Andre Jute
I can understand why Herr Rohloff hasn't made a version of his hub
gearbox for Shimano's roller brakes:
1. The roller brakes would need to be replaced a few times over the
life of the gearbox.
2. It is unreasonably expensive for a small firm to provide for more
than two forms of braking. (Rohloff provides for a rim brake and/or a
disc brake.)
3. The major Rohloff market, mudpluggers, have a disc-brake culture,
so sales may be uncertain.
But, certainly, if roller brakes were to become available on the
Rohloff, I would choose roller brakes rather than discs. The Rohloff/
roller brake combo would be a lot nearer zero maintenance than any
kind of rim brake or disc brake can come. And roller brakes, while
nowhere near as refined as Magura hydraulic rim brakes, are a little
easier to modulate than disc brakes.
Thing is, until I see how long my rims last with the Magura hydraulic
rim brakes, I'm not at all certain that I would choose rollers over
the Magura rim brakes. I've just become too accustomed to that smooth
progressivity; it might well be worth rebuilding my wheels every ten
years or whatever.
Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
(PeteCresswell)
>I can't say
>that I have ever had snow or ice stick on a rim long
>enough to have any serious effect on braking.
I think it's something about the material used for the rim.
On my 1980-something Stumpie braking is essentially zero using
the original canti brakes on the original steel rims when wet.
The alu rim, OTOH, that I put on the rear wheel has some braking
power when wet. Dunno how it compares bc I went to a drum brake
in the front and mostly use that. The drum brake sucks pretty
badly... but it works well enough for the kind of riding I do and
it's been 100% reliable in the wet.
--
PeteCresswell
AMuzi
>> I can't say
>> that I have ever had snow or ice stick on a rim long
>> enough to have any serious effect on braking.
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> I think it's something about the material used for the rim.
> On my 1980-something Stumpie braking is essentially zero using
> the original canti brakes on the original steel rims when wet.
> The alu rim, OTOH, that I put on the rear wheel has some braking
> power when wet. Dunno how it compares bc I went to a drum brake
> in the front and mostly use that. The drum brake sucks pretty
> badly... but it works well enough for the kind of riding I do and
> it's been 100% reliable in the wet.
I sold them then.
Aluminum wheels were always standard equipment.
Tom Ace
> So are you saying that there is no difference in stop distance between
> all brakes? Like I said I use all sorts of brakes and they are all good
> brakes, even in the wet so I agree with you that any decent brake can do
> the job.
None between decent brakes, i.e. with adequate power
and good modulation. Once the front brake is strong
enough to lift the rear wheel, having more power
available will not stop you any faster.
Tom Ace
Tom Sherman °_°
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Nov 8, 3:04 pm, Tom Sherman �_�
> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
155-mm wheelbase and 30%/70% F/R weight distribution to have either a
rear disc or drum brake for winter riding.
> I don't have any snow (to be precise, I don't have snow often enough
> or long enough or regularly enough to have much cycling experience in
> it) and genuinely icy roads only for a few hours a day at the depth of
> the worst winters though still not enough to ice up the rims on my
> bike, but I do have wet rims often as we have quite a bit of rain year-
> round. I have never found wet rims to slow me appreciably or even
> noticeably; I ride the same way and brake the same way wet or dry.
> Others, Norman for instance, are reporting the same experience in
> colder climes.
>
Refer back to the posts of Jay Bollyn when he was looking for an all
around commuter. In the Upper Midwest, we have sections of slush
alternating with dry pavement. I have ridden in these conditions with
rim brakes, and the performance has not been acceptable.
> The upper *effective real life* limit of bicycle braking, I conclude,
> is not affected by choice of brakes (rims brakes cable or hydraulic,
> disc brakes, rollers, drums) because, as has been said here often
> enough to become axiomatic, the braking power of all decent brakes now
> in use exceeds the limits gravity imposes on the rider.
>
> Once reduced to real life then, one doesn't choose brakes for their
> absolute stopping power, because all have more than enough regardless
> of weather conditions, but for other reasons (initial cost,
> durability, maintenance, convenience, fashion, whatever). Magura's
> hydraulic rim brakes are a no-brainer for their refinement and
> virtually zero maintenance, and they are at the cheap end of good
> brakes too.
>
I can not lock up the front wheel nor raise the rear wheel on my rim
braked Sunset Lowracer, so a Magura front rim brake is under
consideration as an upgrade.
(PeteCresswell)
>I sold them then.
>Aluminum wheels were always standard equipment.
The original StumpJumpers?
The rims on mine say "Araya 26x1.75".
Maybe they really are alu and just look like steel to me.
But, bottom line, the braking varied between really bad and
non-existent in rain.
--
PeteCresswell
landotter
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
> > Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in
> >>> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles
> >>> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim
> >>> brakes are so popular.
>
> >>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the
> >>> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes,
> >>> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the
> >>> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another
> >>> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very
> >>> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there,
> >>> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of
> >>> refinement.[...]
>
> >> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to
> >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
>
> > So you use and recommend fixed gear then?
>
> I like fixed gear as much as Chalo.
How much affection do you have for Chalo?
landotter
> Per AMuzi:
>
> >I sold them then.
> >Aluminum wheels were always standard equipment.
>
> The original StumpJumpers?
>
> The rims on mine say "Araya 26x1.75".
>
> Maybe they really are alu and just look like steel to me.
Andrew's right. Single wall aluminium Arayas were the norm on all of
the Specialized bikes of that era.
>
> But, bottom line, the braking varied between really bad and
> non-existent in rain.
Badly set up cantis, lame pads, and rain will make braking lousy on
aluminum as well.
Andre Jute
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
> André Jute wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 3:04 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
> > <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
I don't understand your logic. You say a rim brake is no good in snow
and ice, of which you say you have plenty. Then you say you're
considering a rim brake. Why?
Your situation seems tailormade for Jay's solution, which I seem to
recollect I suggested to him, of roller brakes at the front; they're
immune to weather and very low maintenance, just a squirt of Shimano's
rollerbrake grease every year or when they get loud, ten seconds start
to finish. Whether your rear wheel can take a rollerbrake depends on
the drivetrain but if you're upgrading the bike you will anyway
eventually want to consider a hub gearbox, and those (except for
Rohloff) all come in versions which take a roller brake; Shimano also
makes freewheel hubs which take roller brakes for people who insist on
derailleurs.
I have Shimano roller brakes of two flavours. One old-fashioned
utility series on the rear of a Royal Dutch Gazelle where with the
front disc it provides a form of brake balancing that gives smooth
enough stops despite the crudity of the disc. The other older/utility
rollers I have tried clearly trade in ultimate stopping power for
everyday civility.
The second kind of Shimano roller brakes I have are the most up-to-
date 75/70 series F/R, and these are as powerful as best quality disc
brakes, a little more controllable, but still need attention at speed
if you don't want to pay for reconstructive surgery to your face (on a
traditional bike at least). The 75/70 rollers are clearly intended for
people who ride in a *very* sporting manner, which is what I assume
you do on your recumbent. (Perhaps 18 months ago I described on RBT an
emergency stop with these heavy duty rollers when a car pulled out of
a driveway when I was almost on it at high speed; I was very impressed
with their ability.) They take the same sort of learning that discs
do, and you can never forget that you have very powerful brakes
fitted, but regardless of weather they will pull you up foursquare
every time, long, long after discs had started not being there for
you.
I cannot think of circumstances where both are offered in which I
would choose disc brakes over roller brakes. Disc brakes are now
strictly for poseurs, I think, or for the uninformed, or, as always,
for the trendy and the cafe racers.
If I were offered a Shimano roller brake on a Rohloff, I would take it
even over the Magura hydraulic rim brakes with all their civilized
advantages, against the day when that eejit again pulls across the
road in front of me and freezes there.
It helps but is in no way crucial to my opinion that Shimano's rollers
are an el cheapo option once you have the hubs, and work with their
dynohubs which are also cheap and for practical purposes as good as
the very expensive SON.
Andre Jute
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Nov 8, 9:33 pm, Tom Sherman �_�
> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> Tom Sherman �_� wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in
>>>>> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles
>>>>> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim
>>>>> brakes are so popular.
>>>>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the
>>>>> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes,
>>>>> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the
>>>>> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another
>>>>> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very
>>>>> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there,
>>>>> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of
>>>>> refinement.[...]
>>>> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to
>>>> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
>>> So you use and recommend fixed gear then?
>> I like fixed gear as much as Chalo.
>
> How much affection do you have for Chalo?
Er, I like fixed gear as much as Chalo does.
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Nov 9, 3:43 am, Tom Sherman �_�
> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>>> On Nov 8, 3:04 pm, Tom Sherman �_�
>>> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>
> I don't understand your logic. You say a rim brake is no good in snow
> and ice, of which you say you have plenty. Then you say you're
> considering a rim brake. Why?
>
Different bicycles. The Sunset is rare, out of production, and I like it
too much to ride in crap. Will a Magura work on a caliper brake mount?
The other bike is a RANS Wave to Tailwind conversion, which has the
advantage of being able to "draise" [1] over bad sections of rutted snow
and ice. Since I would not use the front brake on this bike on slippery
surfaces, and with 70% of the weight on the rear wheel a rear drum or
roller brake will be adequate.
If people are going to think I am crazy for riding in the winter, might
as well go all out and do it on a 'bent. Of course, a trike could also
be considered for this use, but at an order of magnitude more expense.
Until fuel cells or some other power source better than current battery
technology comes along, a dynamo hub is practically a necessity on a
bicycle that will be used to commute in the dark.
[1] "Draise" - to propel a bicycle with one's feet against the ground
while seated. Requires a relatively high and upright seat on a
recumbent, or a crank-forward upright.
Chalo
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> > Andrew Muzi wrote:
> > >
> > > So you use and recommend fixed gear then?
> >
> > I like fixed gear as much as Chalo.
>
> How much affection do you have for Chalo?
I have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy about this. I hope the same
goes for Tom, but I haven't asked and he hasn't said.
Chalo
Clive George
news:hdacf5$2ms$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Will a Magura work on a caliper brake mount?
No.
They did make one model - the HS77 - but that's incredibly rare.
Andre Jute
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
> André Jute wrote:
> Will a Magura work on a caliper brake mount?
Magura's hydraulic rim brakes are designed to fit to frames with
cantilever sockets.
Magura's kit comes with stiffening/booster frames to fit front and
rear of the fork/seatstay, so I suppose you could kludge up some
fixings with U-bolts, using only the supplied parts (check which parts
are supplied in the States as in Europe we get a different pack). Or
you can find or make a fitting which is u-shaped and has a bolt
through the caliper hole and further fastenings to each fork/seatstay
leg, with the canti sockets soldered onto the arms, and then attach
the Magura braces to this framework; might look like a kludge, though,
or might look very "technical".
In fact, in your application of rear only braking on ice I would try
to extend the controllability of the lever through weakening those
brakes by mounting them without the brace/booster, and mounting them
so that they can dissipate part of their power in flexing the frame by
pushing the seat stays apart. On my Kranich, even mounted without
either of the U-frames, and mounted so they can dissipate some of
their power in flexing the seatstays, those Magura calipers are still
strong enough to skid the rear wheel if you're rough with the lever.
And at the front, strong enough if applied hard from 35-40kph to lift
the rear wheel. There's a fine balance between power and control.
I wish you luck fitting up your brakes, but I agree with your
neigbours, riding in conditions where you can depend only on your rear
brake is nuts.
datakoll
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Nov 10, 12:34 am, Tom Sherman �_�
> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>
>> Will a Magura work on a caliper brake mount?
>
> Magura's hydraulic rim brakes are designed to fit to frames with
> cantilever sockets.
>
> Magura's kit comes with stiffening/booster frames to fit front and
> rear of the fork/seatstay, so I suppose you could kludge up some
> fixings with U-bolts, using only the supplied parts (check which parts
> are supplied in the States as in Europe we get a different pack). Or
> you can find or make a fitting which is u-shaped and has a bolt
> through the caliper hole and further fastenings to each fork/seatstay
> leg, with the canti sockets soldered onto the arms, and then attach
> the Magura braces to this framework; might look like a kludge, though,
> or might look very "technical".
>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/1940445068/sizes/o/in/set-72157619269124601/>
> In fact, in your application of rear only braking on ice I would try
> to extend the controllability of the lever through weakening those
> brakes by mounting them without the brace/booster, and mounting them
> so that they can dissipate part of their power in flexing the frame by
> pushing the seat stays apart. On my Kranich, even mounted without
> either of the U-frames, and mounted so they can dissipate some of
> their power in flexing the seatstays, those Magura calipers are still
> strong enough to skid the rear wheel if you're rough with the lever.
> And at the front, strong enough if applied hard from 35-40kph to lift
> the rear wheel. There's a fine balance between power and control.
>
> I wish you luck fitting up your brakes, but I agree with your
> neigbours, riding in conditions where you can depend only on your rear
> brake is nuts.
>
Not when you have 70% or more weight on the rear wheel, and skidding the
front will dump you in a big hurry.
<http://www.bicycleman.com/recumbents/rans/images/rans_tailwind_lg.jpg>
And yes, the chain stays flex too much without a "horseshoe" booster.
Andre Jute
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
> André Jute wrote:
> > On Nov 10, 12:34 am, Tom Sherman °_°
> > <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>
> >> Will a Magura work on a caliper brake mount?
>
> > Magura's hydraulic rim brakes are designed to fit to frames with
> > cantilever sockets.
>
> > Magura's kit comes with stiffening/booster frames to fit front and
> > rear of the fork/seatstay, so I suppose you could kludge up some
> > fixings with U-bolts, using only the supplied parts (check which parts
> > are supplied in the States as in Europe we get a different pack). Or
> > you can find or make a fitting which is u-shaped and has a bolt
> > through the caliper hole and further fastenings to each fork/seatstay
> > leg, with the canti sockets soldered onto the arms, and then attach
> > the Magura braces to this framework; might look like a kludge, though,
> > or might look very "technical".
>
> Will not work on a bike with a mono-strut instead of a fork.
Looks to me like you're stuffed coming and going; you can't use a
roller brake on a monostay either because it needs to attach the
torque arm to something on the non-drive side. Nor a disc, because
that needs to attach the caliper to something. It looks like caliper
rim brakes or nothing, unless you find those Magura HS 77 Clive
mentions, which I've never even heard of before, and which certainly
aren't currently listed by Magura.
Andre Jute
Reformed petrol head
Car-free since 1992
Greener than thou!
Tom Sherman °_°
> On Nov 10, 2:41 am, Tom Sherman �_�
> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>>> On Nov 10, 12:34 am, Tom Sherman �_�
>>> <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
>>>> Will a Magura work on a caliper brake mount?
>>> Magura's hydraulic rim brakes are designed to fit to frames with
>>> cantilever sockets.
>>> Magura's kit comes with stiffening/booster frames to fit front and
>>> rear of the fork/seatstay, so I suppose you could kludge up some
>>> fixings with U-bolts, using only the supplied parts (check which parts
>>> are supplied in the States as in Europe we get a different pack). Or
>>> you can find or make a fitting which is u-shaped and has a bolt
>>> through the caliper hole and further fastenings to each fork/seatstay
>>> leg, with the canti sockets soldered onto the arms, and then attach
>>> the Magura braces to this framework; might look like a kludge, though,
>>> or might look very "technical".
>> Will not work on a bike with a mono-strut instead of a fork.
>
> Looks to me like you're stuffed coming and going; you can't use a
> roller brake on a monostay either because it needs to attach the
> torque arm to something on the non-drive side. Nor a disc, because
> that needs to attach the caliper to something. It looks like caliper
> rim brakes or nothing, unless you find those Magura HS 77 Clive
> mentions, which I've never even heard of before, and which certainly
> aren't currently listed by Magura.
>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/1939602865/sizes/o/in/set-72157619269124601/>.